Backup plan

[Sister Golden Hair]

Did the Fellowship have any kind of backup plan as to what to do about the Ring if Frodo had died during the quest? Also, wasn't it unwise for Frodo to go to Mordor with only Sam? The chances of them dying together were very great, and there would have been no one to continue the quest, and the Ring would have been taken by Gollum, or even Sauron. What do you think?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

1) Did the Fellowship have any kind of backup plan as to what to do about the Ring if Frodo had died during the quest? 2) Also, wasn't it unwise for Frodo to go to Mordor with only Sam? The chances of them dying together were very great, and there would have been no one to continue the quest, and the Ring would have been taken by Gollum, or even Sauron. 3) What do you think?

1) I would think that Gandalf would have had some backup plan.
2) I don't think so. He might not notice the tiny pattering of Hobbit-feet walking into peril. They could not wing by numbers. There were Armies they were facing. Also, the height of Aragorn would have been hard to hide, and of couse the "Elfery'' of Legolas. Also, who knows who might succumb to the Ring? I think that Sam was safest from this, for he was simplest, had little or no greed, and had a tremendous love for Frodo.
3) Now you know. ;)

[Dreran the Green]

I think if Frodo had died one of the other hobbits would have taken it, since they seem to be the only ones able to resist it. Probably not Pippin or Merry, because they'd throw it down a well or something, so Sam, I suppose. Well, he did take it; but I mean if Frodo had died before the Fellowship was broken.

[Ruinel]

There was no backup plan. There was only faith in the ability of Frodo and Sam to do their part. (This is one of the failures of the movies, they do not show the true bravery of the Hobbits.)

It is easier to spot a larger company than to discover only two. If a tall Elf, a stout Dwarf, a Wizard, two additional Hobbits and a couple of Men had traveled with them, they would have been discovered for sure. Even omitting Merri, Pippin, Boromir and Gandalf, that leaves three additional people to hide when evading the enemy. Remember that Hobbits have an uncanny knack for hiding. And the plan was that they would get into the stronghold of the enemy, unseen, to destroy the One Ring. Two would be able to creep into Mordor much easier than a contingent of nine, or even five. :D

Actually, it really cracked me up when the Orcs that had taken Frodo were afraid of Sam, who they thought was an Elf warrior. :D

[Ararax]

remember aragorn spent quite a bit of time in mordor, but also theres no other reason to take 4 hobbits unless you might need them, i think gandalf knew this

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmm...I don't remember that...But anyway, Aragorn would've been there by himself, not with a batch of Hobbits an Elf a Dwarf and yer odd Wizard.

[Sister Golden Hair]

But the original plan was not for Frodo and Sam to go to Mordor alone was it? That is just something that happened. The Fellowship's job was to aid Frodo in reaching Mount Doom to detroy the Ring.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
But the original plan was not for Frodo and Sam to go to Mordor alone was it? That is just something that happened. The Fellowship's job was to aid Frodo in reaching Mount Doom to detroy the Ring.

I think they found that the best "aid" they could give them was to divert the attention of sauron and his minions by causing disturbances elsewhere. Which is exactly what happened. And by the time Sauron realized what was going on it was too late...

[Anglorfin]

I think they were just winging it the whole time. Even with Gandalf everything was spur of the moment. Everybody just had to handle things as they happened because there was no fortelling. Besides everyone basically knew that the quest relied solely on Frodo. If he screwed up then everything was lost.

[Silpion]

I think the other members of the quest where there to aid Frodo in destroying the ring. I don't think there was a back-up plan. I think it was Frodo or nothing (maybe Sam could have taken up the ring if Frodo actually died during the journey). Whatever happened during the quest they just had to deal with it and keep going.

[olsonm]

Frodo and Sam's chances of dying were about the same alone or with what was left of the Fellowship. They certainly couldn't have helped him get into Mordor nor could they have defended him from the myriad of enemies to be found there. The decision to go it alone was Frodo's. The wise believed that Frodo had been appointed this task so they would trust his choice even if it seemed wrong (as shown by Aragorn in the book). And, as we know, it turned out to be the best way. The entire plan was a bit crazy and required some faith.

[Artanis]

I think Frodo was very wise to try to go on to Mordor alone, and he showed great courage doing so. The Fellowship was crumbling. Frodo knew he could not trust all of them, and those he thought he could trust was too dear to him, and would probably not have been of much help anyway.

I doubt they had a second plan as a backup. At the council, after Frodo has volunteered to be the Ringbearer, Elrond says: "If I understand aright all that I have heard, I think that this task is appointed to you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will."

[azalea]

I don't think there was a backup plan, I think everyone trusted that Gandalf would guide the decision making process, and his method seemed to be that choices are best made when they are presented, and not beforehand. However, I do think Gandalf must have had the thought in his mind at certain points, for instance when Frodo was "mortally wounded" in Moria -- if Bilbo hadn't given him the mithril mail, then Frodo would have died (presumably). Who would have been chosen as the bearer? And who would have made the choice, because I think they wouldn't have decided until they were out, by which time Gandalf was gone? I think it would have been a huge problem at that point because of Boromir.
An easier time would have been after the orc attack at Amon Hen, after Boromir was dead. If Frodo had been killed then, I wonder what would have happened, but it would have been easier to make a decision, because 1) there were fewer people to choose from, and 2) Boromir wouldn't have been adding his voice of dissent.
I would say that Merry would be a viable candidate, being the older of Frodo's two relatives present, the Ring would "pass" to him. Of course Sam would be a good choice, but I question whether he would be chosen. Hmm.
Of course, if Merry and Pippin were still taken, then it could only be one of four people, and I think Sam would have been the logical choice, but I think they would all have gone with him OR maybe just Aragorn would go w/ him, and Legolas and Gimli would go after M & P. I like that scenario.:)

[Lizra]

I agree with everyone who has said "No backup plan". I don't remember one! :) I think "the plan" (as devised by Elrond) was that the intelligence and diversity of the fellowship members would (hopefully) enable them to make the wisest choices as the quest proceeded. There was the wisdom of Aragorn and Gandalf, the voice of elves, dwarves, men, and hobbits....and the guiding hand of fate in the "natural" (he was the one the ring ended up with, for reasons unknown) selection of Frodo as ringbearer. The stage was very well set, but the events would follow their own course.

[Ararax]

also gandalf went into the necromancers dungeons alone and was not found out, but he couldnt ahve taken it he was to powerful, so was every non hobbit in the fellowship only gimli could have but gimli couldnt have destroyed it the greed would ahve gotten him jsut as it ahd the other dwarves.

[Khamûl]

The plan in case Frodo fails: put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye.

[Gamigar]

Even if someone else was with them it wouldn't make any difference. Frodo was the only person who could resist the ring long enough to have it destroyed.

[gollum9630]

werent the members of the Fellowship allowed to leave at any time. The only one that had to destroy it was Frodo, so i am guessing there was no back up plan

[Millane]

But the original plan was not for Frodo and Sam to go to Mordor alone was it? That is just something that happened. The Fellowship's job was to aid Frodo in reaching Mount Doom to detroy the Ring. Idealistically i would have Aragorn accompany Frodo into Mordor, Aragorn was the greatest traveller of the age had ventured into Mordor, wouldnt have had to place any trust into Smeagol and in the very odd chance they were spotted, he could battle his way through... yet this couldnt work for a number of reasons, 1. as IR said the diversion was very much needed. 2. the Hobbits went less noticed than Aragorn could have and 3. There was a battle to be won and destroying a ring wasnt going to save Gondor the battle pig that is Aragorn was:p

[Gamigar]

Ah, you make a good point. But if Aragorn would keep Gollum away the ring may have never been destroyed, because Frodo himself did not destroy it. In fact at the end he was just gonna keep it, the only reason it was destroyed is because both Frodo and Gollum were greedy and wanted to keep it.

[Bombadillo]

I don't think their plan was foolish, just desperate. It would have been dumb for Frodo to go alone I think. It was a good think Sam's so strangely persistent.

But if they'd fail, they all knew that they'd be screwed. I think Gandalf would probably have taken full responsibility for it and attack Sauron in hopes of obtaining the Ring and destroying it right there in Mordor. And on his way he'd gather up a 'militia' of Maiar and Elves, maybe Gondorians and Rohirrim.

In short: Giant Battle

[Rosie Gamgee]

The whole point of the Fellowship was to protect Frodo. If something really dangerous came along to hurt Frodo, the others would all fight to the death to protect him and the Ring. I don't think they had an idea as to what to do if Frodo died. Because if Frodo got killed, the rest of them would already be dead trying to protect him. My theory, anyways.

I think Sam and Frodo going off along was indeed a smart thing to do, because, as pointed out various times in the book, Sauron would be looking for somekind of big attack, one that he could easily recognize and deal with. But the smaller the company going into Mordor, the better, for Sauron wouldn't pay them any mind.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Did the Fellowship have any kind of backup plan as to what to do about the Ring if Frodo had died during the quest? Also, wasn't it unwise for Frodo to go to Mordor with only Sam? The chances of them dying together were very great, and there would have been no one to continue the quest, and the Ring would have been taken by Gollum, or even Sauron. What do you think?
I didn't think that there was any backup plan, as there was no plan at all. Frodo just left the Fellowship and Sam joined him.
Of course it was unwise, but the whole quest was very impossible so going to Mordor alone wasn't too bad. Otherwise somebody could have recognized them.

[Lady of Rohan]

I don't think there was any back up plans. The only plan that was for certain, was Boromir and Aragorn going to Gondor, and that didn't even end up happening.

[Húrin Thalion]

This paln was the last resort of a fearsome trouble they ahd put themslelves in. The white councill and the leaders of the weswere utterly respnosible for the state of north western Middle earth which was, to say the least, sad. Waht tehy did may seem liek a reckless gamble, which it doubtlessly wasn't. What otehr opportunities did they ahve? A gamble is when there are other options to consider, safer ones which there weren't. Boromir thought so, jsut as his father. But if you read the council fo Elrond, they discuss every other possibility adn all are rejected.

Since it was a little of topic, I have removed it! Happy anway 'cause we beat Finland!

Húrin Thalion the TTF renegade!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thank you Hurin, and as you can see, I have deleted my previous post.

[Millane]

Hurin i would agree that they had discounted all the options that they had to make finish Sauron, but destroying the ring was an end whereas Frodo and Sam were a means to the end, as far as i know there were no other means to achieve it... it couldnt have been done better because they did it.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It seems clear there was no detailed plan as such, more of a general objective to be implemented as opportunity arose.

But as for the two hobbits going alone Aragorn, definitely after Boromir's death, would have preferred to go into Mordor with Frodo (in the circumstances as he knew them at the time probably correctly).
LOTR The Departure of Boromir
" 'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last. "I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part."

And wouldn't a dwarf be useful in trying to get over or through the Ephel Duath?

One more thought. What about Gimli as alternate Ringbearer, since dwarfs seem to be resistant, in a manner, to Rings of Power?

[durin's bane]

I don't think Gimli would've made a good candidate, mainly because Dwarves would be more of a threat to Sauron than a Hobbit. Besides, aren't Dwarves known for being slightly greedy?

To me, there was no backup plan. Elrond left the Ring in the hands of Frodo because he knew Frodo was a worthy bearer. I think the plan was for Frodo to go alone (or with a friend) when the Fellowship reached Mordor. After all, I remember Elrond saying, "You may turn back whenever you wish", speaking for the other members of the Fellowship. If the plan was for the Company to destroy the Ring together, I think Elrond wouldn't have allowed Boromir and Aragorn to go to Gondor and the other members to turn back is they wanted. Elrond must've trusted the abilities of the Fellowship to get Frodo as far he needed, then he had to go alone. Of course, the incident at Amon Hen screwed up those plans, and Sam went with Frodo, which I think was for the better. :P

[Beor]

I'd say definitely for the better. If Frodo did leave without Sam, he would almost suredly have failed. Sam kept Frodos will to go on alive throughout the quest. Sam was the quests engine. Frodo was the vessel.

[Nurvingiel]

I think the members of the Fellowship tacitly agreed that they would all do it, until they were all slain.

As for who would actually be the Ringbearer... that would probably be decided only when something happened.

[Fimbrethil]

Why is there such speculation over this? If they had had a backup plan the don't you think Tolkien would have mentioned it? You guys are looking at this from the characters point of veiw...they're not real. Try looking at it from Tolkien's piont of veiw it was his book...of course they had no backup plan because Tolkien was writing the book and he made everything work out the way he wanted it to. Of course this my just opinion and my way thinking. I'm sorry I have dissruppted your world...please go back to fiction now. :D

[Nurvingiel]

Just because Tolkien didn't write Frodo or anyone saying "If I am killed etc. etc." They just had a tacit agreement. Not everything needs to be written in the book, that's what makes it interesting. It's fun to speculate about what was hinted at or implied. :)

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Gamigar
Ah, you make a good point. But if Aragorn would keep Gollum away the ring may have never been destroyed, because Frodo himself did not destroy it. In fact at the end he was just gonna keep it, the only reason it was destroyed is because both Frodo and Gollum were greedy and wanted to keep it.
Well that's the great irony of the whole book. The "hero" actually never destroyed the ring or fulfilled the quest himself. Gollum was the unwitting hero.


I have come, " he (Frodo) said. "But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!" And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam's sight.

....

"Precious, precious, precious!" Gollum cried. "My Precious! O my Precious!" And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.


Gollum's role is foreshadowed when Gandalf tells Frodo...


I have not much hope that Gollum will be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least.

Now the question is, DID Gandalf truly know the role of Gollum? He also foresaw the danger to himself of going into Moria.

There was no true backup plan, for without the Ring being destroyed, all was lost anyway. Who else would have destroyed it and could they have overpowered Frodo and made him destroy it? I doubt it. Frodo technically failed in the end and Gollums fate was truly tied to the Ring, as Gandalf foresaw.

Also there is this. Gandalf convinces Elrond to let Merry and Pippin come along, especially Pippin.

"There remain two more to be found," said Elrond. "These I will consider. Of my household I may find some that it seems good to me to send."

"But that will leave no place for us!" cried Pippin in dismay. "We don't want to be left behind. We want to go with Frodo."

"That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead," said Elrond

"Neither does Frodo," said Gandald, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. "Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him."


Now without those two, again key events would NOT have happened. The Ents would not have gone to Isengard and Helms Deep would have been lost.

Even in that last sentence, Gandalf indicates that a powerful person is no more capable of fullfiulling the quest than Frodo by himself or any of the hobbits. I don't think Gandalf foresaw a need for any powerful person to accompany Frodo into Mordor. The quest was Frodo's alone and the Fellowship was there to just guide him

Again there is additional direction from Gandalf for Frodo to take those of who he might trust with him...


"But I don't think you need to go alone. Not if you know of anyone you can trust, and who will be willing to go by your side - and that you would be willing to take into unknown perils. But if you look for a companion, be careful in choosing!"


If Gandalf did NOT say this, would Frodo have left everyone in the Shire and attempted the trip on his own or possibly with just Sam? If this happened, then again there would be no Pippin and Merry or the destruction of Isengard.

I'm not saying that Gandalf forsaw the EXACT events, but did he have some idea of the roles each would play and their importance? If this was the case, was there any need for another plan?

Gandalf and to some extent Aragorn both provide a ton of foreshadowing. Aragorn's seems to come from what he has learned from Gandalf though. Once Gandalf is lost, Aragorn seems to be unsure, but he does realize that once Frodo decides to leave the Fellowship on his own, that the Ring Bearer is out of his care and protection.

"I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if we seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Ring Bearer is in my hands no longer. The company has played it's part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left."

[Fimbrethil]

Guys I don't know if I'm just in a bad mood when I post and I'm sorry if I offend anyone but...give some credit to Tolkien. He wrote them without him Gandalf would have never "said" anything. Without him all hope would have been lost because there would not have been a book(s). You all make very good points but honestly these are fictional characters.

[Ilúvatar]

Originally posted by Fimbrethil
Guys I don't know if I'm just in a bad mood when I post and I'm sorry if I offend anyone but...give some credit to Tolkien. He wrote them without him Gandalf would have never "said" anything. Without him all hope would have been lost because there would not have been a book(s). You all make very good points but honestly these are fictional characters.
When you analyse fiction, you look behind what is written. All authors write the words that the characters speak, but you still analyse WHY they said things. Have you ever had English Literature or literature class if you aren't in the US?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Fimbrethil
Guys I don't know if I'm just in a bad mood when I post and I'm sorry if I offend anyone but...give some credit to Tolkien. He wrote them without him Gandalf would have never "said" anything. Without him all hope would have been lost because there would not have been a book(s). You all make very good points but honestly these are fictional characters.

so what yer saying is we are not allowed to think beyond the story? didnt even Tolkien himself think beyond the story in many cases?

[Wayfarer]

Well, considering that even the /original/ plan was screwed up, I don't know that any backup plans would have made a difference. :P

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Fimbrethil
Guys I don't know if I'm just in a bad mood when I post and I'm sorry if I offend anyone but...give some credit to Tolkien. He wrote them without him Gandalf would have never "said" anything. Without him all hope would have been lost because there would not have been a book(s). You all make very good points but honestly these are fictional characters. Well, even Tolkien who (in reality) wrote the books, gives the writing credit to his characters.

[Attalus]

I agree, SGH. Tolkien was one of those writers whose characters come alive in his mind and tell their story to him. Example: When Frodo/Bingo first reached Bree, Trotter/Strider appeared in the story, much to his astonishment. He had no idea whom he was, and took a while to "find out." (He was always thinking, "What does this mean? I must find out," according to Carpenter). LOL, eventually he found out that his nickname was Strider, not "Trotter."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, even Tolkien who (in reality) wrote the books, gives the writing credit to his characters. Many great authors do so.
In letter #66 Tolkien said about Faramir:
A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir – and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan (with some very sound reflections no doubt on martial glory and true glory): but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendices ...As we know, he wasn't removed. :)

[Fimbrethil]

Originally posted by Ilúvatar
When you analyse fiction, you look behind what is written. All authors write the words that the characters speak, but you still analyse WHY they said things. Have you ever had English Literature or literature class if you aren't in the US?

I love my lit class (yeah I'm in the U.S.). I didn't say you couldn't look beyond the story. Personnally I don't care much for analyzing things in lit. though. It just seems weird that you would take this awsome peice of lit. and pick it apart bit by bit until you have all the peices laid out in front of you and it's not fiction anymore it just turns out to be this really cool really logical story some person wrote. I just think you can take it to far without giving credit where credit is due. That's my whole thing. What do you mean he thought beyond the story? Yes, well I'm sure on some subconciese (sp?) level Tolkien really did make up Farimir. I never said you couldn't...I'm not a dictator...I was just wondering why.