Turgon and the Silmaril

[Maedhros]

It is interesting that it is Turgon himself who makes the Silmaril fundamental to the defeating of Morgoth. Consider the Following:
In 495 FA, Tuor reaches Gondolin and it is there that he gives Turgon, the message of Ulmo to depart Gondolin and go to Sirion and to the Sea. It was then and there that Ulmo’s purpose was. But because of the pride of Turgon and the beauty of Gondolin, he would not hear Ulmo.
From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta: 16 QII
But there they were made captive by the guard of the gate and led before the king. Tuor spoke his embassy to Turgon in the great square of Gondolin before the steps of his palace; but the king was grown proud and Gondolin so fair and beautiful and he was so trustful of its secret and impregnable strength, that he and the most of his folk wished no longer to trouble with the Gnomes and Men without, nor did they long more to return to the lands of the Gods.
It was in 502 FA that Thingol was slained in Doriath with the Silmaril. It is in 503 FA that Eëarendil and Elwing are born.
If Turgon had been the wise Elf that Finrod was then, he would have heeded the advice of Ulmo and departed from Gondolin. Then the force of the Valar of the West would have come much sooner, instead of the 545 FA when the war started. That is indeed a difference of 50 years.
Obviously, in that Scenario, Turgon would have become the real instrument of Ulmo in the War against Morgoth, but unfortunately for us, he was overcome by his pride, and the sad thing is that Turgon himself knew that the only hope laid on the West. Therefore, making the Silmaril of Beren and Lúthien instrumental in the saving of ME. Remember Eärendil reaches Valinor in 542 FA, but he began his voyages in 534 FA. He is allowed to come to Valinórë because he had the Silmaril that Elwing saved during the raid of the Sons of Fëanor in the Havens of Sirion.
Also consider that Idril, the daughter of Turgon didn’t even trust his own father with their plans on the Way of Escape. His own flesh and blood distrusted him.

[Fat middle]

Interesting thoughts. But we cannot know how would gone things if Turgon had heeded the advice of Ulmo. It's possible that much harm would had been avoided (in Tolkiens world every sin -pride, lust...- seems to bear its own punishment) but i think that the Silmarils would have been fundamental to get the last victory anyway.

The way to defeat Melkor had to begin with the breaking of all bonds that united elves (and the Eruini in general) to him and the oath of the Noldor was one of those bonds. When Earendil carries the Silmaril to Aman he (as the one who could claim to represent all the Eruini) is finally breaking that bond.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
It's possible that much harm would had been avoided (in Tolkiens world every sin -pride, lust...- seems to bear its own punishment) but i think that the Silmarils would have been fundamental to get the last victory anyway.I tend to agree with el gato gordo in this. There lies a beauty in the idea that the Silmarils, which triggered the fall and misery of the Noldor and their estrangement from the Valar, also should be the instrument for their saviour.
As a reader I'm thankful that Turgon didn't leave his city on Ulmo's advice. If he had done so, the story wouldn't be so great.

[Maedhros]

The year is 495 FA. Elwing reached the mouths of Sirion in 510 FA. If Turgon had reached Sirion in 496 FA, could they have waited for 14 years for the arrival of the Silmaril?
Would Maedhros had assaulted the remants of Doriath with Turgon in Sirion in 505 FA?
It makes me wonder.

[Anglorfin]

I don't understand if you are saying that Earendil was only allowed to make the voyage to the West because he bore the Silmaril. It seems to me that it would be his fate anyway Silmaril or no. But then if Earendil didn't have the Silmaril, we would have to take into account who would be carrying it and what might befall that bearer in the meantime. If the sons of Feanor had captured it, I would think either one of these two things would happen; Maedhros will try to rally the Elves together immediately but fail because nobody would trust him, or all Elves would agree to gather for an assault, all at the same time as Earendil reaches Valinor and entreats the Valar to wage war.

[Maedhros]

I don't understand if you are saying that Earendil was only allowed to make the voyage to the West because he bore the Silmaril. It seems to me that it would be his fate anyway Silmaril or no.
Eärendil only reached west because of the Silmaril. No Silmaril, no reaching Valinórë.
He had made previous attempts to reach the west, yet he failed in all of them, except the one in which Elwing bore to him the Silmaril.

[Artanis]

What I don't understand is why Ulmo should send word to Turgon advicing him to send messengers to Valinórë, when he must know that they've already tried this several times in vain.

[Fat middle]

Good question, Artanis. Must think a bit about it...

[Maedhros]

What I don't understand is why Ulmo should send word to Turgon advicing him to send messengers to Valinórë, when he must know that they've already tried this several times in vain.
I don't think that he meant to send messengers to Valinórë, but to go to the seas themselves. Turgon.

[Artanis]

At least in The Fall of Gondolin it seems like he meant sending messengers:[...] but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: [... snip]
Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."I see that it's a bit different in the Quenta, but that doesn't explain what was said in the FoG. It doesn't explain why the return to Valinorë should suddenly be possible for the Noldor, even with Ulmo's aid.

And why is Ulmo so sure of himself, that he can promise the people of Gondolin to turn the hearts of the Valar if they stand up to Morgoth?

[Maedhros]

And why is Ulmo so sure of himself, that he can promise the people of Gondolin to turn the hearts of the Valar if they stand up to Morgoth?
All of Ulmo's previous counsels were good. He must have had a plan, what was that exact details of that plan are not know but he must have had a way to make the Valar listen to them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Artanis
At least in The Fall of Gondolin it seems like he meant sending messengers:I see that it's a bit different in the Quenta, but that doesn't explain what was said in the FoG. It doesn't explain why the return to Valinorë should suddenly be possible for the Noldor, even with Ulmo's aid.

While I'm hardly an expert, weren't most of the messengers destroyed in storms? If Ulmo specifically sanctioned these messengers, I think he could protect them from Osse, much as he protected Voronwe.

[Artanis]

Sorry, I should have given the full quote:But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kor and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."So I think it was primarily magic that hindered the messengers in their attempt to reach Valinorë, though they might of course also have experienced storms and the wrath of Osse.

[Fat middle]

Ulmo may have expected that travelling to Valinor to seek the aid of the Valar would have been seen by the rest of the them as a plead of pardon.

The strangement of the Noldor from the Valar was due to the pride of the Noldor that made them refuse the pardon of the Valar.

I think that Ulmo was a bit wrong. He was too kind hearted and loved elves too much. So he, perhaps, was prone to forget the offence if only he had a little proof that Elves were finally disposed to accept the mastery of the Valar (traveling through perils to seek their aid).

But, i think that the rest of the Valar would ask for a full repentance and that should include the mending of the fault (giving back the Silmarilli).

[Maedhros]

I think that Ulmo was a bit wrong. He was too kind hearted and loved elves too much. So he, perhaps, was prone to forget the offence if only he had a little proof that Elves were finally disposed to accept the mastery of the Valar (traveling through perils to seek their aid).
I think that you hitted the point. When Turgon refused to go to the seas and abandon Gondolin, he proved that he was not ready to repent. I don't think that Ulmo was at fault, but Turgon was.