Origional fate of men

[Sween]

In Finrod and andereth in morgoths ring she eludes to a belife among men that they were not origionally destined to die and this was a result of arda marred and from morgoth himself? could he doom the 2nd children of eru to death? bearing in mind that the airnur had no part in there making!

Its a strange one and one im surprised toliken threw into the mixer

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sween
In Finrod and andereth in morgoths ring she eludes to a belife among men that they were not origionally destined to die and this was a result of arda marred and from morgoth himself? could he doom the 2nd children of eru to death? bearing in mind that the airnur had no part in there making!

Its a strange one and one im surprised toliken threw into the mixer

I think that they were destined to die...otherwise, like finrod said, what would have been the importance of introducing them later in time?

[Artanis]

When Tolkien wrote the Athrabeth he was planning to revise the mythology to a great degree. If you have read 'Myths transformed' later in the book you'll know what I'm talking about. He may then have wanted to give Morgoth far more power.

Personally I don't like the idea of Morgoth being powerful enough to change the lifespan of Men. I prefer to have Eru superior in that matter. Adanel's story is a Mannish myth, and therefore unreliable, as it is subject to change through generations. It's also possible that Adanel's story is originating from Morgoth, who would like Men to fear death, the gift from Eru.

[Melko Belcha]

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #156
(Footnote) But the view of the myth is that Death - the mere shortness of human life-span - is not a punishment for the Fall, but a biologically (and therefore also spiritually, since the body and spirit are integrated) inherent part of Man's nature. The attempt to escape it is wicked because 'unnatural', and silly because Death in that sense is the Gift of God (envied by the Elves), release from the weariness of Time. Death, in the penal sense, is viewed as a change in attitude to it: fear, reluctance. A good Numenorean died of free will when he felt it to be time to do so.

Death was a part of Men from the begining, but Morgoth made Men fear death. In Finrod and Andereth I believe Tolkien was just trying to show how the true fate of Men had been twisted by Morgoth and made them believe that it was not their fate to die, but that it was a form of punishment to them.

[Fat middle]

Death was a part of Men from the begining, but Morgoth made Men fear death. In Finrod and Andereth I believe Tolkien was just trying to show how the true fate of Men had been twisted by Morgoth and made them believe that it was not their fate to die, but that it was a form of punishment to them.
... yes, and they were burdened with the unclear memory of one dark forgotten original guilt.

as Andreth said: could Morgoth do that? i don't think so, but i see no other solution according to the published Silmarillion.

As Artanis said, "Toliken" (that's Sween's spelling) was planning to radically transform the myths. It's possible that he was planning to make Eru conceive men as inmortal in the begining and then to have to punish turning them mortal.

Then, "what would have been the importance of introducing them later in time?" (as Arien pointed). Remember that they appear in the music of the "Airnur" (yep, again Sween's:p ) only when the precent theme has failed. Perhaps they were Eru's second trying. His first child have been marred when Morgoth corrupted Arda, so he try and make new child with a different mixture of hröa and fëa. The fate of these second childs would not have been tied to Arda Marred.

The problem, then, would have been that Morgoth managed again to make these childs to fall. Thus, the main difference between the fates of elves and men would be that the elves would need the redemption of Arda to be wholly cured and men would need another sort of redemption, perhaps more individual.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Fat middle
... yes, and they were burdened with the unclear memory of one dark forgotten original guilt.

as Andreth said: could Morgoth do that? i don't think so, but i see no other solution according to the published Silmarillion.

As Artanis said, "Toliken" (that's Sween's spelling) was planning to radically transform the myths. It's possible that he was planning to make Eru conceive men as inmortal in the begining and then to have to punish turning them mortal.

Then, "what would have been the importance of introducing them later in time?" (as Arien pointed). Remember that they appear in the music of the "Airnur" (yep, again Sween's:p ) only when the precent theme has failed. Perhaps they were Eru's second trying. His first child have been marred when Morgoth corrupted Arda, so he try and make new child with a different mixture of hröa and fëa. The fate of these second childs would not have been tied to Arda Marred.

The problem, then, would have been that Morgoth managed again to make these childs to fall. Thus, the main difference between the fates of elves and men would be that the elves would need the redemption of Arda to be wholly cured and men would need another sort of redemption, perhaps more individual.

good points thats what exctally my mind was trying to think of but couldnt mange it. Oh and dont unessairy raise probs with my spelling

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
As Artanis said, "Toliken" (that's Sween's spelling) was planning to radically transform the myths. It's possible that he was planning to make Eru conceive men as inmortal in the begining and then to have to punish turning them mortal.When I first read Myths transformed, I didn't like it at all. I didn't want Tolkien to mess with my Tolkien! :rolleyes: :D

About death: I really like the idea of one, superior power, not part of the world, giving death to Men as a gift. As a release. It's beautiful. If Morgoth were to become powerful enough to shorten the lifespan of Men I could accept that, but I wouldn't want him to bring death on to Men, as in Adanel's story.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
When I first read Myths transformed, I didn't like it at all. I didn't want Tolkien to mess with my Tolkien! :rolleyes: :D

About death: I really like the idea of one, superior power, not part of the world, giving death to Men as a gift. As a release. It's beautiful. If Morgoth were to become powerful enough to shorten the lifespan of Men I could accept that, but I wouldn't want him to bring death on to Men, as in Adanel's story. But doesn't Adanel's tale state that it was Iluvatar. It says that the last time the first voice spoke, was to say that Men would now come to him to find who thier creator was, and the creator of the second voice. Something like that.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But doesn't Adanel's tale state that it was Iluvatar. It says that the last time the first voice spoke, was to say that Men would now come to him to find who thier creator was, and the creator of the second voice. Something like that.

Yes, it was Eru not Morgoth who changed Men's fate, as Finrod asserts no one but Eru was capable of changing a races fate though Melkors actions that led to mens fate being changed. One can see the Numenoreans as being, in some ways, being closest to resembling Men before their fall, with their long lifespan and their ability (for a time) to choose when they die, this estel was later seen with Aragorn's death, (appendicies) and Tolkien picks up on Aragorn's estel in dieing in his letters. For wasn't the ability to pass away when you got weary of the world the 'true' gife of Eru, though it was tainted by Morgoth?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
But doesn't Adanel's tale state that it was Iluvatar. It says that the last time the first voice spoke, was to say that Men would now come to him to find who thier creator was, and the creator of the second voice. Something like that. Yes, sorry, I read my post again and I see it came out all wrong. My point was that the idea of death as a gift was so beautiful, I wouldn't want it to be tampered with, as it was in Adanel's story where death, or a sooner death, had become a punishment for Men because they were misled by Morgoth. To make Men fear death in this way, and to fill them with shame, was one of the most evil deeds of Morgoth.

Eru clearly had a purpose with this gift of death. It was given after one age of thought on his part.