If they had returned to the Shire earlier

[Lalaith]

Do you remember the part in RotK when Saruman is already in the Shire and has turned it to evil and then he laughs at the hobbits (Merry, Pippin, Sam, Frodo) because they should have returned earlier and not have gone to Rivendell first?
I wonder if it would have changed anything if they went straight to the Shire and had not gone to Rivendell first.

[Jonathan]

There is a thread about this topic already:
If Merry and Pippin had returned to the Shire (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5812),
even though the thread doesn't deal with Sam and Frodo and what would have happened if they had returned.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Jonathan
There is a thread about this topic already:
If Merry and Pippin had returned to the Shire (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5812),
even though the thread doesn't deal with Sam and Frodo and what would have happened if they had returned.
I know and I already replied to that.
But I never got the point why Saruman said to them that they shouldn't have gone to Rivendell. Could they have changed anything?

[Sween]

i dont think that bar saving lotho pimple they could of made any more difference to what they had allready made. Plus they needed to see bilbo and sort stuff out about frodo sailing to the west

[gimli7410]

yea otherwise frodo probably couldnt of made it to the grey havens and sam always wanted to see the elves anyways

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by gimli7410
yea otherwise frodo probably couldnt of made it to the grey havens and sam always wanted to see the elves anyways
Sam already saw the elves ... so that can't be the problem.

[gimli7410]

yea but he could never get enough of the elves. and they were about to leave middle earth forever

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by gimli7410
yea but he could never get enough of the elves. and they were about to leave middle earth forever
but they could have gone to the Shire first and then to Rivendell ... if they wanted
after a year of journey and pain ... wouldn't go want to go home first and then visit some other place?

[azalea]

They didn't know anything was wrong, even Gandalf wasn't aware that anything of that magnitude had occurred. If they HAD gone on back, I wonder if Gandalf would hvae gone with them. If so, I wonder how it would have played out. If not, it would be a similar situation, just not as far gone. They would ahve been able to save Lotho, like Sween said, and would have prevented some of the destruction, but it would have had the same outcome. I wonder if the death of Saruman and Grima would have been different then?

Edit: oh, and I supose the reason they went to Rivendell first is because it was kind of on the way home, and who knew when they'd be venturing all the way out there again? I guess it's the nature of travelling by foot or horseback. Once you got home, you wouldn't want ot go back out for a very long time, especially after the length of time they'd been gone!:)

[gimli7410]

Originally posted by Lalaith
but they could have gone to the Shire first and then to Rivendell ... if they wanted
after a year of journey and pain ... wouldn't go want to go home first and then visit some other place?


ummmmmmmmmm i dont know*runs away*

[cassiopeia]

I think they stayed at Rivendell for two reasons. One because they wanted a rest from their long journey. The other is because Frodo wanted to see Bilbo again.
I actually have the feeling Gandalf has at least some idea of what was happening in the Shire, but decided that the hobbits had 'grown up' enough by now to deal with it themselves.
To answer Lalaith's orginal question, I don't think the hobbits returning earlier would change the situation too much. Perhaps it have given Saruman less time to settle in, but that doesn't really matter, since the ruffians were already menacing the inhabitants. Another interesting question is: did Wormtongue eat Lotho?:eek:

[Sween]

i Believe by the fact that Frodo and Sam went past Saurman they could of easily beat him to Bag end. This would be a bad thing for a number of reasons by the time Frodo got to bag end in the book they had taken out the majority of his forces and he didnt have time to lay plans etc! If they had gone stright home the ruffians would of met saurman on the way back and he would of been able to organise them better

[Ruinel]

There were other forces at work. It was meant to be this way. Any earlier or later would have been a mistake.

Gandalf knew what was happening, I'm sure of it. Or had a feeling that something was up. But he never revealed this to the Hobbits. As he had said before, there were other forces at work. It was meant that they show up at that particular time. To rouse the other Hobbits, to make their stand and take back the Shire.

[Earniel]

I do believe Gandalf knew something was afoot in the Shire. I seem to recall he made a comment to the hobbits that they would find a lot more gates on their way home than before. But I think he judged (and rightly so) that Saruman was but a little treath compared to what they had faced before.

If they had arrived earlier Saruman would have had less chance to get installed in the Shire. he would also have wreaked a lot less damage. But I wonder that if the hobbits had indeed come home earlier, they would have been able to rally the hobbits like they did. The Shire-hobbits would have been less bullied and robbed. They wouldn't have been so easy to rouse then.

[azalea]

Ah, interesting, the last two posts. It reminds me of somethng I said elsewhere on Entmoot, that a people values more that which has been more challenging to defend, and it is made the more valuable since they are the ones who did the defending, rather than an outside force.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by azalea
Ah, interesting, the last two posts. It reminds me of somethng I said elsewhere on Entmoot, that a people values more that which has been more challenging to defend, and it is made the more valuable since they are the ones who did the defending, rather than an outside force.
An excellent point!

As well, I think that Eärniel has also hit a home run! Would the returning Hobbits have been able to rally the hometown upon their return if there had been little harm done to them. Hobbits don't seem easy to war and the point she made about Saruman's men doing so much damage probably was the final straw and all that was needed was a match. That was when our heros returned to the Shire and mustering the town's people.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by azalea
They didn't know anything was wrong, even Gandalf wasn't aware that anything of that magnitude had occurred. If they HAD gone on back, I wonder if Gandalf would hvae gone with them. If so, I wonder how it would have played out. If not, it would be a similar situation, just not as far gone. They would ahve been able to save Lotho, like Sween said, and would have prevented some of the destruction, but it would have had the same outcome. I wonder if the death of Saruman and Grima would have been different then?

Edit: oh, and I supose the reason they went to Rivendell first is because it was kind of on the way home, and who knew when they'd be venturing all the way out there again? I guess it's the nature of travelling by foot or horseback. Once you got home, you wouldn't want ot go back out for a very long time, especially after the length of time they'd been gone!:)
That's a good point. Especially the edit part.
I guess if they had gone back to the shire, they would have wanted to settle down and not again go on journeys.
Although ... wait, didn't Merry and Pippin make some further journeys?

[azalea]

Yes, but I'm sure they didn't go anywhere for a while after they got back, and also they were more up to travelling than Frodo, and I think Sam was happy to be a homebody.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by azalea
Yes, but I'm sure they didn't go anywhere for a while after they got back, and also they were more up to travelling than Frodo, and I think Sam was happy to be a homebody.
Of course Sam was happy to be a homebody. :D He had seen the Elves, he had his adventure, and now he was back home with the Hobbit he loved, Rosie. :)

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Of course Sam was happy to be a homebody. :D He had seen the Elves, he had his adventure, and now he was back home with the Hobbit he loved, Rosie. :)
Would agree to that. I think Sam was never the guy for travelling.

[Eomer]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Would agree to that. I think Sam was never the guy for travelling.




Sam might not be the guy for travelling but he is devoted to his master and friend. he would not just leave frodo to go alown.
anyway, would he have liked what he had seen if he went home?? that would have been just as much as an adventure trying to sort everythig out back in the shire.

[azalea]

Edit: I got this confused with the Merry and Pippin returning thread, so my post was kind of off topic; sorry! I put it there instead, but the last post is what made me think of it.