Dwarves beards

[Darth Tater]

In LOTR the beards seem to have more natural colors, yet in The Hobbit Dwalin's beard is blue. Is this an editing point that JRRT missed in the second edition of the Hobbit when he fixed the riddle chapter, or is there something I'm overlooking?

[bmilder]

I don't remember the blue beard...

[Eruve]

Dwalin does, indeed have a blue beard. It's mentioned when Dwalin arrives at Bilbo's door for the unexpected party. I can think of two possible explanations. 1. The Hobbit was originally conceived of as a children's book. As JRRT continued the story it became less childish in tone, but the original descriptions of the dwarves' beards are in the first chapter, when the tone was still that of a children's book. Note that some of the Dwarves also have yellow (not blonde) beards. Also, when JRRT began to write The Hobbit, it had no connection to Middle-earth. He only began to realize as he wrote the story that elements from ME were creeping in, so he ended up setting the story in ME. 2. The term "blue" when it refers to hair colour can actually mean black, as in hair so black it has a blue shhen to it. (Some comic books show black-haired people with blue highlights.) Think of the fairy tale "Blue Beard". I read somewhere that his beard was meant to be black but so black it was blue.

[Hernalt]

That's genius Eruve. Crows and other black feathered birds can in some lights have a blue sheen. Some birds, (eg parrots, mallards) have deep green or deep blue shimmer which is not due to pigment in the feather but to the refraction of light which traps(?) those colors. So if we hear of Dwarves with green beards.. ..you know.

[Darth Tater]

It's not just Dwalin though. All the dwarves are just described so differently than in LOTR. I'm just suprised it wasn't edited along with "Riddles in the Dark." Eruve, that's very true though. Brilliant.

[Elanor]

Yes, when I was little, I always thought my Aunt Lilian had blue hair. Now it's gray, and I'm sad, because she's the only person I've ever known with hair like that. While we're on Hobbit/LotR discrepancies, what about the elves? I mean, "Tra-la-la-lally...with beards all a-wagging..." versus, "A Elbereth Gilthoniel"? It's a huge difference.

[Darth Tater]

That's very true. The whole book is much more childish. I'm so curious to find out what was edited out and in though! I bet if Tolkien had lived longer he might have wanted to completely re-write The Hobbit, since he talks from ME without ME being Bilbo. Of course, It's probably annoying writting the same book twice (though he did do that, in a way).

[Eruve]

DT, if you go as far in your Middle-earth exploration as reading the History of Middle-earth Series, you'll discover that JRRT was continually writing the same stories over and over.

[Gimli the Dwarf]

Elanor, you thought Aunt Lilien had blue hair? I never noticed. :(

[Elanor]

Ah, well you weren't old enough then... I was really little.

[Darth Tater]

Um, ok.

[Hernalt]

Well, I've seen aged dames have silver hair that was beginning to turn blue, so does this mean they were turning into dwarves? (or was it hair color...?)

[Darth Tater]

Um, I have no idea.

[ArwenUndomiel02]

Intersting concept. Maybe your Aunt Lilian had a blue tinted wig! Heehee!

[Grand Admiral Reese]

His beard could have been very black to the point of being blue.

[Elbreth of Carhouth]

Actually there was a point in time when it was fashionable for women with grey hair to tint or dye it blue. In various shades.

Hair so black it looks blue is true enough, I have a friend like that. Her hair has very blue highlights. My hair, on the other hand, is so brown it looks black...with red and gold highlights (natural of course)

But I do think JRRT originally wrote the Hobbit for children, there is a noted difference between the beginning and the end.

[Gilthalion]

***
I have it on very good authority (having just thought of it a second ago) that Dwalin was prematurely gray.

Being an important Dwarf himself, though not as important as Thorin Oakenshield, he was vain of his appearance.

At the time of THE HOBBIT, Balin was using a rinse made in Hobbiton and used by little old hobbit ladies. Lobelia Sackville-Baggins probably also had hair of this color.



***
Regarding APPARENT discrepancies in Elvish Poetry:

Galdor and his band were High Elves, Noldorin who had seen Valinor. Their poetry was a song of praise to Elbereth. The chiding and jesting Elves of Rivendell are no doubt, comparatively, young Elves who can't resist making fun of the strangely bearded Dwarves. They made up their silly little rhymes to tease and torment them! (All in good fun, of course. At least they didn't cast them into a dungeon like the Wood Elves!) I see no problem here!


***
Regarding some CONFUSION about the authorship of the texts:

THE HOBBIT is a translation of part of THE REDBOOK OF WESTMARCH which also includes much of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Bilbo himself wrote THE HOBBIT as a tale to young hobbit nephews and nieces. As for changes in tone, this is to be expected since Bilbo is known to have made revisions himself. Frodo wrote THE LORD OF THE RINGS as a serious reference for future generations of Hobbits on the War of the Rings. Not as entertainment for youngsters but as Lore for the Ages.

Really, I'm shocked at all of you for your lack of regard for the proper history of these writings and for your petty bickering over trivialities!


(And with that, the indignant little hobbit stomped his furry foot, turned on his bare heel, and slammed his round front door in their astonished faces!)

[dunedain lady]

:lol: Good point! :lol:
It is often forgotten that the books were written by Bilbo, and Tolkien simply translated them and made them accessable to modern times.:)

[Grand Admiral Reese]

The same way George Lucas translated Star Wars from Luke's Jedi Holocron? Sure, I can accept that. :)

[Elbreth of Carhouth]

Right, I knew that. (sheepish look) Really, I did.

[Niffiwan]

Of course, It's probably annoying writting the same book twice (though he did do that, in a way).
Also, if you look at the introduction to the Canadian edition to LoTR (is it in the US version too?), it says that Tolkien rewrote the 1500 pages of LoTR over and over again, by himself, using a clinky old typewriter that he had in the basement. :x
Remember, there were no computers back then. So he couldn't just "save" the files.
And he didn't have enough money to hire a professional typewriter person, who could have done it 10x faster than he did.
He did this until he finally got the version that he wanted.
Geez, I would have screamed and torn my hair out in hysteria because of all the stress!
The enormous work that he put into the book is really visible, however, once you read it.

[Gilthalion]

From what I gather, much of the original work was written and rewritten and edited on paper by hand.

Tolkien used the implements of the 19th century, pen and paper and a quaint device known as a typewriter.

"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration."

But what inspiration!

Then, the extraordinary effort to produce a book for mass distribution! As one who learned the keys on antique mechanical contraptions such as the one Tolkien used, I can tell you that it was work even for the 10 fingered! Imagine the professor working for years, pecking away a letter at a time, each sharp stroke of the keys drawing him nearer to literary immortality.

But think back to the writers of the works Tolkien read. What had the olden skaalds to work with, but the rough and costly implements of the North in the Iron Age and before? They memorized and carried their work around in their HEADS!

Fortunately, for Bilbo and Frodo, in the Shire of Old, if one had the wherewithal (and they did), one could buy fine leather bindings and perhaps parchment, writing paper, and good ink. Indeed, Golden Ink! By the way, I was thinking of putting my limited edition,(only 144 ever produced), "Eleventy First Birthday of Mr. Bilbo Baggins" party invitation up for sale on E-Bay. I was about to throw it away, but the Mrs popped the back of my head and called me a Ninnyhammer and said that it might buy a lot of bacon.

[arynetrek]

"He did this until he finally got the version that he wanted. Geez, I would have screamed and torn my hair out in hysteria because of all the stress!"

notice that every picture of Tolkien commonly seen shows him as bald...

aryne *