Frodo and Sam: Friends or Master Servent Realtionship

[Lady of Rohan]

My family and I had a long debate last night, over Sam and Frodo's realtionship, discussing if they overcame the master/servent relationship to the point where they where friends, or if they stayed at the master servent realtionship. I thought it would be interesting to hear everyone else's oppinon on this matter. So, oppinons anyone?

[Lalaith]

I never really understood their relationship as I don't get it, how a servant and the master can be best friends. But to answer your question I would say that they still were master and servant, till Frodo finally left.

[Bombadillo]

I think FotR started out with Sam being the servant of Frodo, but as the story continued they became more friendly, and I think Frodo would have been equally quick to help Sam if he had the opportunity. Sort of like, if you're cool with one of your teachers, and then once you're out of school you're real good friends.

[Lady of Rohan]

Yah, thats how I saw it. I thought that they where master/servent to begin with, but there realationship as friends grew stronger as the quest lead on. I think that in the end, they where more friends then master/servent, thouhg the master/servent part was still there.

[Artanis]

They were both master/servant and best friends, I believe. I think this sort of relationship was/is common in England.

[Jonathan]

I could never really see the master/servant relationship when I read LotR. The only relationship I saw was pure friendship. During the quest for Mt. Doom, Frodo never really treated Sam as a servant but more of a very good companion. It's true that Sam himself put on the role of a servant to Frodo, but to me it seemed as if Sam just wanted to be nice. Frodo had a quite difficult time being the Ringbearer after all, and by behaving like a servant Sam could make the mission a little bit easier for Frodo.

[Bombadillo]

Good point. I'd also like to point out that Sam did have the fear of Gandlalf in him, and so he would probably wet himself if he ever noticed he was becoming less of a servant to Frodo (and more of a friend).

[durin's bane]

I agree entirely with Jonathan. Frodo and Sam were friends from the start, but as the story progressed they obtained a stronger bond. Sam acted like a servant sometimes, but Frodo never ordered him around like, "Fetch the water" or "Carry me." What can make their relationship seem like master/servant is that they're such good friends to each other, and Sam really tries hard to make the journey a bit easier for Frodo.

[Lady of Rohan]

I never really noticed that they where that great a friends in the begging ( knew they where friendly, but i never got the impression that they where actual buddies), but I think that towards the end of the book, there friendship grew and surpassed the master/servent part of there realationship. (And like Bombadillo said, Sam was scared of Gandalf too, which I think is the reason Sam was always so polite ;) )

[Ragnarok]

I always saw it as master/servant relationship but I think it changed as I read further into the book. It seemed to me by the end of the book it was more of a best friend relationship and seemed less apparent of a slave/master relationship, although Sam still tried to serve Frodo.

[cassiopeia]

I admit I feel a little uncomfortable with the master/servant relationship. I think, at the beginning of thier journey it more like that, but as they came to rely on each other more and more, and as they faced great evil, they became friends. I can't recall Frodo ordering Sam about, though Pippin did order Sam to fetch water in the FOTR. Although, after the War of the Ring, I believe Sam would still think himself as Frodo's servant. It would be interesting to know how things fared when Sam, Rosie and Frodo (and Elanor) all lived in Bag End. I'm sure Rosie would feel a little left out because of Sam and Frodo's close bond.

[Psycho Kitty]

i think their relationship was particular to hobbit society. kind of a weird watered down caste system thing going on. where sam felt lesser to frodo and thats just how it was. and it was normal for someone like sam to be a gardner to a land owner like frodo. but at the SAME time they were best of friends. and sams devotion to frodo was both as body guard and loyal friend.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I pretty much agree with PK, except that it wasn't particular to the Shire, being in fact deriven from the "family servant" of olden England.

[azalea]

That's part of the whole thing, that a truly good servant (which Sam was) does not NEED to be ordered to do his duty, he knows what he must do and is always mindful of that. Yes, because Frodo was from a well to do hobbit family and Sam from one of the working class, there was always some of that master/ servant role at work, but they were friends, too.
I said in another thread that discussed this that I think Frodo thought of Sam as a friend (starting somewhere in the middle of the journey, maybe around when they separated from the fellowship) rather than a servant anymore, but that Sam loved Frodo and relished his role as servant to him, and Frodo knew this and allowed that aspect of their relationship to remain intact. IOW, it wasn't so much Frodo keeping the master role, but Sam keeping the servant role.

[gimli7410]

i believe sam and him were always true friends but sam always wanted to keep that servant relationship part of it. and of course i know frodo would help no matter what.

[Beren, Son of Barahir]

I believe at first Sam taking care of Frodo because it was his obligation but a little affection was there. As they got to Mordor and were left on their own Sam I think took it into his own to make sure his master, and at this point best friend, would complete his mission of throwing the ring into the cracks of Mt. Doom. Sam definatly became more emotional and a sense of love grew as the story progressed.

[Silpion]

I think Frodo and Sam were friends but were also master and servant. On Frodo’s part, I don’t believe being the master was important. I agree with azalea that
I said in another thread that discussed this that I think Frodo thought of Sam as a friend (starting somewhere in the middle of the journey, maybe around when they separated from the fellowship) rather than a servant anymore, but that Sam loved Frodo and relished his role as servant to him, and Frodo knew this and allowed that aspect of their relationship to remain intact. IOW, it wasn't so much Frodo keeping the master role, but Sam keeping the servant role.
I think they became a lot less formal on the quest/journey, but I don’t believe that Sam let himself think of being Frodo’s equal. I think Sam thought of himself as Frodo’s servant then later, after the quest, as Frodo’s caregiver.

[Laurus Nobilis]

Originally posted by azalea
I think Frodo thought of Sam as a friend (starting somewhere in the middle of the journey, maybe around when they separated from the fellowship) rather than a servant anymore, but that Sam loved Frodo and relished his role as servant to him, and Frodo knew this and allowed that aspect of their relationship to remain intact.

I think that sums it up pretty well. I also agree with those who said that they were best friends anyway- maybe not in a "Merry & Pippin" way, but they truly cared for each other.

[WhackoJacko]

well dont ask me but with the pipeweed and lewinksy, i'd say they were both GAY...:D

[Baby-K]

Thank you for that insight

My opinion re the Master/Servant relationship: At first the relationship was that of master / servant - not only due to the social standings of Frodo & Sam, but also because of the warning Gandalf gives Sam before he departs. However, as the journey progresses & Frodo becomes more affected (or rather afflicted) by the power of the Ring he starts relying on Sam more & more - in the end I believe he is closer to Sam than he ever was to Merry or Pippen, as he has gone through all the bad things with Sam & had not been rejected by him. That is what true friendship is in a way, supporting each other in times of need & accepting each other - flaws / weaknesses and all.

[azalea]

Kind of like in The Giving Tree, perhaps -- accepting another's limited ability to "love," in the sense that one cannot give the other the same expression of love that the second is giving. (What?:confused: ). I'll try again: like you said, Baby-K, Sam loved Frodo both because of and in spite of the fact that being the Ringbearer severely limited his ability to give anything back to Sam in the way of support. The "because of" being that it was obvious Frodo needed Sam to be his support; the "in spite of" being that Sam knew he could not expect back what he was giving. What made it REALLY special is that Sam never thought of this, dwelled on it, begrudged Frodo this, or held back because of it.

[Hasty Ent]

Interesting thread...

When I think of Frodo's and Sam's relationship, I think of World War I, and the officers who went to war accompanied by a servant from their household. The world changed irrevocably with this war, and one of the casualties was a deeply divided class system. The officers found new respect for the servants who fought with them. When they returned to their estates, the officers/heirs had a hard time going back to treating these servants/soldiers the way they used to.

Frodo and Sam were soldiers, they experienced combat and hardship together. This created a bond that they shared with no one else. Frodo was Sam's 'officer' -- he cared deeply for Sam's welfare, and Sam would die to save Frodo's.

[WhackoJacko]

think about it, destruction of a "marriage" ring? ;)

did someone ask for the hidden meaning for the tolkien rings? the ring of power or the ring of marriage :D

[Baby-K]

Azalea - I totally agree (damn, you say things so clearly) :) Just wanted to add that, in a way carrying the ring could be likened to a drug addiction. The user (carrier) knows that they are being adversely affected, but they cannot help themselves, but if they are lucky they have true friends who are willing to face the demons with them & help them through it without judging them or deserting them.

This is very much the case with Frodo & Sam, Frodo realised that the ring was getting too much of a hold on him, yet he was powerless to resist. Sam saw this & in a way acted as Frodo's conscience (which is sometimes what friends need to do), he reminded Frodo of the purpose of their journey, without judging him for allowing the ring to have such a power over him or deserting him when things became tough. Also, the ultimate sign of true friendship is that Sam was willing to bear Frodo's load for him, albeit for a short time. I think in the end Sam was so desperate for the quest to be over, not only for the sake of Middle Earth, but more for the sake of his friend. As an aside - it even states in the Bible that we could sometimes have friends that are closer than brothers, I believe in their case this became very true.

did someone ask for the hidden meaning for the tolkien rings? the ring of power or the ring of marriage

No someone asked about the Master/Servant relationship. Are you trying to imply (by reference to a wedding ring) that marriage is a master/servant relationship? How does that apply to the question posed?

Ye know, I have never flamed anyone (seriously) & I don't want to start doing it on Azalea's watch, so please don't make arb comments without explaining yer intended meaning (or at least try to make an effort to make sense to the rest of us)

[WhackoJacko]

a couple of gay hobbits in an heroic attempt to destroy the last barrier to lasting happiness: social constraints put up to yaiety :D

the fact that Frodo failed to complish the task, sees him banished to the west and from Sam, who continues on with a lie with Rosie :D

You asked for it :D

PS. of course nowadays, gay marriages are legal, but not so in Tokien's time ;)

PSS. if you think you can find God in LOTR?? i think NOT, i think all u find is a perverted [edited] :D

[Baby-K]

Take a quick look around & tell me, are the walls around you padded? And are yer only friends the people in white coats? :rolleyes: If they were a couple of gay hobbits the book would have been called The adventures of Frodo, Queen of Middle Earth :rolleyes: Oh & btw, no self respecting gay man would flaunt being so hairy - even if he was a hobbit :p

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by WhackoJacko
PS. of course nowadays, gay marriages are legal, but not so in Tokien's time ;)

PSS. if you think you can find God in LOTR?? i think NOT, i think all u find is a perverted SonaBitch :D

Please don't procreate - ever! :rolleyes: As a matter of fact, please remove yourself from the genepool immediately :mad:

[WhackoJacko]

and i thought you offered to carry my babies :D

[Baby-K]

testament to your shortcomings in the thinking department :rolleyes:

[WhackoJacko]

[edited -- that is not an appropriate thing to say here -- azalea]

hey, getting flamed from a person who advertises doodie.com lol phhst

[Baby-K]

It's an affliction most men suffer from, [edited -- sorry, can't have any o' that -- azalea]

(oh btw - 'twasn't flaming, but if ye want me to start all ye need to do is give me a reason :p )

[WhackoJacko]

oh tis a BIG one lol haha

[Baby-K]

Sorry Azalea - I tried, promise :(

[WhackoJacko]

shyte happens, you know that you perverted girl lol

[Coney]

Originally posted by WhackoJacko
shyte happens,

Evidently :rolleyes:

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by Coney
Evidently :rolleyes:

;) :D

[azalea]

Okay, guys, let's get back on topic, please.

Whacko, please stop spamming, and yes, I consider calling Sam and Frodo gay spamming. Enough.


Baby-K, that was a good post up toward the top there.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by azalea
What made it REALLY special is that Sam never thought of this, dwelled on it, begrudged Frodo this, or held back because of it.


or maybe tolkien cut those parts...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Don't let him get to you, K. :) He's just a twat/idiot/fool/other similar noun. Personally, I'm hoping for the big 'B'. I asked SGH about it some time ago, but I don't think she ever really looked into it.

[WhackoJacko]

u cant ban me!!! i'd tear this forum apart....

btw is it also spamm, i i called u a homophobe??:D

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
When I think of Frodo's and Sam's relationship, I think of World War I, and the officers who went to war accompanied by a servant from their household. The world changed irrevocably with this war, and one of the casualties was a deeply divided class system. The officers found new respect for the servants who fought with them. When they returned to their estates, the officers/heirs had a hard time going back to treating these servants/soldiers the way they used to.

Frodo and Sam were soldiers, they experienced combat and hardship together. This created a bond that they shared with no one else. Frodo was Sam's 'officer' -- he cared deeply for Sam's welfare, and Sam would die to save Frodo's.

I agree with this, especially since Tolkien would most likely have witnessed such relationships in WW1. I also think that going through such a terrible experience made them more than master/servant (although such relationships have sometimes historically been very close - the servant is the perfect person to confide in, because he can't judge you and you can sack him if he tells your secrets :D) but that Sam's respect of and love for Frodo made him want to maintain his role as servant.