Oh no hes gone for a cheasy ending (spoilers) [Archive]

Black Breathalizer

05-10-2003, 02:16 PM

oh, I dunno....I thought the scene where Sauron attacked the last alliance of men and elves was pretty cool in FOTR.

The idea of Sauron stepping out to face Aragorn the same way he faced Elendil and Isidur centuries ago could be very dramatic--especially with Aragorn holding the reforged blade-that-was-broken. Personally, I don't see what would be so awful about it.

The reality is that Jackson needs a true "Darth Vaderish" villian to represent the evil in the conclusion to a story that is based on a good versus evil theme. With Saruman dead, the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan are going to go against...the burning eye?!?!? It seems to me logical that Sauron would be seen again in movie three. I just hadn't thought about him going head to head against Aragorn. I don't want to get too excited about it because it may be a hoax. But it sure sounds great to me.

Wayfarer

05-10-2003, 02:31 PM

*ahem*

<Voice of Reason>
SAURON IS NOT DARTH VADER!
</Voice of Reason>

He's Palpatine, Allright? PALPATINE!!!!

And Jackson needs cheap crap because he's a worthless B-Movie director.

Coney

05-10-2003, 02:46 PM

*can almost hear the movie fans scream when they finally finish the books........."Tolkien left out the fight-scene!" *

If Jackson is doing this...........then he might as well re-name the movies Karate Kid of the Ring :rolleyes:

The reality is that Jackson needs a true "Darth Vaderish" villian to represent the evil in the conclusion to a story that is based on a good versus evil theme.

No it's not..........it's because Jackson feels that it is more important to have box office success than to keep to the theme of Tolkien............that's why he is using the same tried and tested action movie formula that has drawn in the crowds since the seventies.

Lalaith_Elf

05-10-2003, 03:11 PM

*shakes head* no, no, no, no, NO!!!!! first haldir then this.
*shakes computer*
okay calm..... they're just rumours.... it won't be true.... otherwise.... otherwise pj will have a very angry north-eastener onto him.... and we are not very... nice..... when we get angry..... hmpf!!!!!

penguins might be needed again.......:mad:

Ruinel

05-10-2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The reality is that Jackson needs a true "Darth Vaderish" villian to represent the evil in the conclusion to a story that is based on a good versus evil theme. ....But it sure sounds great to me.
WHAT!?!?!?!!?!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to tell you that I woke up this morning with the resolve to be nice today and not attack anyone, no matter what .............................................. I've gotta go before I say something mean. DAMMIT!

Black Breathalizer

05-10-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Coney
No it's not..........it's because Jackson feels that it is more important to have box office success than to keep to the theme of Tolkien............Purist (Coney dialect) Translation: Whaaah, whaaaah.....how dare Jackson make a movie regular fans will enjoy rather than give those of us on the far right purist fringe our precious literal translation of the book???...whaaah, whaaah.

:)

Nothing about having Sauron at the battle takes away from the themes that Tolkien wrote.

Coney

05-10-2003, 04:49 PM

Lizra

05-10-2003, 04:49 PM

What does "having him there" ruin? :confused: I wouldn't mind seeing him melt in hideous anguish (or whatever he does :D ) when the ring gets destroyed! I'm up for it!

Sheeana

05-10-2003, 04:56 PM

I'm not believing anything until I *see* it. Until then, I'm just gonna curse his very name for the damage that already been done. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
He's Palpatine, Allright? PALPATINE!!!!

Wouldn't he be Darth Vader, since he was the 'minion' of Morgoth? :confused:

Lady of Rohan

05-10-2003, 05:03 PM

That, is not right. If he does that, then he is going to throw off Sauron's whole personality (I mean, thats just not what he does, at least, not from my view).

Black Breathalizer

05-10-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Coney
Cast your mind back to when you first read the books.......think hard now.......and tell me that you thought "Yeah, it was ok.....would've been better if Aragorn had fought Sauron at the end" Okay, listen carefully class:

While the Sauron vs. Aragorn thing is still just a rumor, it makes sense. Think hard now about making a movie....and tell me what you think of a flaming eye as the movie-goers only representation for ultimate evil.

In FOTR and TTT we had Saruman. But once Saruman is out of the picture, the focus of the third movie becomes a battle of wits between Gandalf (good) versus Sauron (evil). Does a flaming eye carry the same weight and have the same stature as Ian Mckellan as Gandalf the White? I don't think so.

By bringing back Sauron in physical form, we have a badassed dude who can, if filmed properly, create the SAME KIND OF FEAR AND TENSION that Tolkien created in his book. But people have to understand that a literal translation of Sauron just doesn't pack the same emotional punch that the book delivered in spades.

To paraphrase the immortal words of Darth Vader: "Search your feelings, you KNOW ME to be true!!!"

gimli7410

05-10-2003, 05:45 PM

damn PJ what a jack***. but the thing about grima getting shot in the head sounds cool. but the sauron at the black gates is ridicuolous

Elf Girl

05-10-2003, 06:07 PM

Now wait just a second. Don't you think it will confuse people? I thought the movie was saying this: (about Sauron's physical form.)

After the Ring was taken from him at the Last Alliance, he no longer had a 'body', but was a flaming eye.

If the attatchment below is not Sauron's form in the movie Third Age, then what is it? His logo? His sign, 'Sauron. All purpose Dark Lord for hire'?

Lizra

05-10-2003, 06:08 PM

Confuse me! I can take it! :)

gimli7410

05-10-2003, 06:09 PM

i geuss maybe PJ thought he could use a different body as a host and that is why he is wearing different armor

Dreran the Green

05-10-2003, 06:23 PM

Well PJ ain't Tolkien! The man is mad! He's having delusions that he's the one who went and wrote the best damn book(s) in the whole world(s)!!!!
Oh, and IF, and I'm sayin' IF PJ did give Sauron physical form to match him to Gandalf, Then what I'd like to know is why its ARAGORN and not GANDALF fighting Sauron!?! Does this make sense to anyone but me?? Or have I gone back into being crazy again??

Ruinel

05-10-2003, 09:24 PM

Hasty Ent

05-10-2003, 10:07 PM

If this is indeed true, it means that I will just skip the third movie. Having already taken a pass on TT, it shouldn't be too difficult.:p

Anglorfin

05-10-2003, 10:44 PM

I put off seeing TTT for months. When I did see it I thought it was so poorly done in comparison to the first one. And my god the 3rd one will make FotR look like Tolkien was in charge of it's directing instead of PJ.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-10-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Purist (Coney dialect) Translation: Whaaah, whaaaah.....how dare Jackson make a movie regular fans will enjoy rather than give those of us on the far right purist fringe our precious literal translation of the book???...whaaah, whaaah.

:)

Nothing about having Sauron at the battle takes away from the themes that Tolkien wrote.

Apostate (Jackson dialect) Translation: Uh-oh...I don't have an argument...I better just use personal attacks! That always works! :rolleyes:

Think hard now about making a movie....and tell me what you think of a flaming eye as the movie-goers only representation for ultimate evil.

Guess what? The book-readers didn't have ANY representation. Are you saying that movie-goers are too dumb to grasp a "behind the stage" bad-guy? :p Also, Tolkien specifically stated that he didn't write about "pure" evil. If that is not what you mean by "ultimate" evil, then I would like to ask if you have ever read and/or heard of and/or seen/heard a basic rundown of the Silmarillion.

By bringing back Sauron in physical form, we have a badassed dude who can, if filmed properly, create the SAME KIND OF FEAR AND TENSION that Tolkien created in his book. But people have to understand that a literal translation of Sauron just doesn't pack the same emotional punch that the book delivered in spades

Again: Are movie-goers too dumb for a bad-guy they don't see? In many movies, the bad-guy is not seen, sometimes to the very end. It seems to me that you're the one who's saying that movie-goers are stupid.

Wouldn't he be Darth Vader, since he was the 'minion' of Morgoth?

While I cannot speak for him, I believe that Wayf meant that he more of a "behind the scenes" evil, as opposed to the blatant, up-front evil of Vader. :)

Coney

05-10-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
If this is indeed true, it means that I will just skip the third movie. Having already taken a pass on TT, it shouldn't be too difficult.:p

*nods* watched TT twice, that seems to be enough for one lifetime........will watch the extended version, and pray for a miracle :rolleyes:

Hasty Ent

05-10-2003, 10:53 PM

Haven't decided yet if I'll watch the extended DVD of TT...As you said, Coney, maybe a miracle?

I have decided, however, that if PJ creates a Wild West showdown between Sauron and Aragorn at the Mordor Corral, I will definitely NOT see it.

Cirdan

05-10-2003, 11:55 PM

How dumb is it to wait for the last movie to put in a physical Sauron after complaining about how difficult is wad to have an eye as the evil one. Wouldn't it have been easier to change it early on if it is to be done at all? The Legolas bit sounds likely but I doubt the Sauron rumor. I heard another rumor than Saruon would be shown as the ring was being destroyed. I'll watch it as a rental if this rumor is true. Why irritate myself and pay $30 for the privilege?

KhamÃ»l

05-11-2003, 12:00 AM

All I have to say is:

Figures. :rolleyes:

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Cirdan
How dumb is it to wait for the last movie to put in a physical Sauron after complaining about how difficult is wad to have an eye as the evil one. Wouldn't it have been easier to change it early on if it is to be done at all? The Legolas bit sounds likely but I doubt the Sauron rumor. I heard another rumor than Saruon would be shown as the ring was being destroyed. I'll watch it as a rental if this rumor is true. Why irritate myself and pay $30 for the privilege?

you pay 30 dollars just to go see the movie:eek: where do you live:confused:

Cirdan

05-11-2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by gimli7410
you pay 30 dollars just to go see the movie:eek: where do you live:confused:

Can't go w/o the family, now can I? We can all watch the rental for the same low, low, price.:)

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 12:43 AM

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i never thought of that. you learn something new everyday:D

Lalaith_Elf

05-11-2003, 04:54 AM

i only go and see it about once... then by the magic of pirates that somehow work into a friends hands:D

well he does get three of us in one household buying the extended version.... we all wanted the bookends alright???!!!

Black Breathalizer

05-11-2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Oh, and IF, and I'm sayin' IF PJ did give Sauron physical form to match him to Gandalf, Then what I'd like to know is why its ARAGORN and not GANDALF fighting Sauron!?! Does this make sense to anyone but me?? Or have I gone back into being crazy again??It would be very logical for Sauron to fight Aragorn. He would be a stronger match physically than anyone else (although still not in Sauron's league) but more importantly, he is the heir of Isildur. I'm sure Sauron would like nothing better than to kick his butt. It would be the classic 'david versus goliath' scene and a very dramatic finale to the war of the ring.

Elf Girl

05-11-2003, 07:26 AM

Yeah, except David has absolutely no chance of winning; as there was no Ring to cut from Sauron's finger. Aragorn would never do that! Even if he was confident the Ring would be destroyed, he would have no way of knowing it would happen before Sauron squashed him into heir-of-Isildur goo. He has no children; the line of kings would be forever broken!

Originally posted by Lizra
Confuse me! I can take it! :)
Yeah, you can take it, but don't you think the fact that it will confuse some people will make it a crummy movie? (Not that it wouldn't already be...)

BB: Okay, are you saying that this ending is better than Tolkien's? If so, what will you do if your almighty god Jackson raises up his hand and squashes this rumour into the dust? Will you squirm and say 'Well, he's the professional. He knows what he's doing.'?

And please comment on the confusion factor in my above post. (No one shall ignore the almighty Elf Girl! Bwahahaha!)

Black Breathalizer

05-11-2003, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Yeah, except David has absolutely no chance of winning; as there was no Ring to cut from Sauron's finger. That's the drama, Elf Girl. Aragorn and the audience know that Sauron will beat him to a plup. The suspense is whether or not Aragorn will survive until the ring is destroyed. Aragorn's act is a self-sacrificing one. He expects to die.

Originally posted by Elf Girl
BB: Okay, are you saying that this ending is better than Tolkien's? If so, what will you do if your almighty god Jackson raises up his hand and squashes this rumour into the dust? Will you squirm and say 'Well, he's the professional. He knows what he's doing.'?First, this scenario is essentially the same; you're just getting literally-minded again. ;) :)

I will be okay if it's just a rumor...but it feels right...and very exciting!!!

Lalaith_Elf

05-11-2003, 07:40 AM

i lost the conversation in this thread a long time ago so i'm just going to sit and nod my head and smile like a demented penguin looking like she know's whats going on

Elf Girl

05-11-2003, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
That's the drama, Elf Girl. Aragorn and the audience know that Sauron will beat him to a plup. The suspense is whether or not Aragorn will survive until the ring is destroyed. Aragorn's act is a self-sacrificing one. He expects to die.
I don't believe event the movie Aragorn would go into a battle he knows he cannot win. He would lead an army into battle, because even it they are outnumbered a thousand to one, it takes time to kill an army, and they needed to disguise the quest of the Ringbearer. Aragorn assaulting Sauron is not disguising the quest of the Ringbearer, since it would make it pretty obvious that Aragorn has not got the Ring. So would Aragorn willingly deprive Gondor of it's king?

Heh, heh, heh... 'beaten into a plup'...

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
First, this scenario is essentially the same; you're just getting literally-minded again. ;) :)
Your saying it's essentially the same as TOLKIEN'S?! *splutter*

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I will be okay if it's just a rumor...but it feels right...and very exciting!!!
So if they don't do it, you will wish they had, yes?

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 09:37 AM

Lizra

05-11-2003, 09:53 AM

Yeah, but poor old Gandalf's been through enough already! Make the virile young pup earn his crown! :D Mmmmmmm!

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 10:18 AM

Can't argue with that:)

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 10:51 AM

I have seen a scene from the movie where gandalf is talking to aragorn and he say"the one person(sauron) he fears is you aragorn" or something along those lines.

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 10:55 AM

Well if Gandalf says it then it must be true:D Always trust Gandalf. Gandalf rocks:D

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 11:00 AM

yep and soon he will be dumbledore who i dont know if he will rock as much as. i think richard harris would have rocked more then ian does:D

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 11:03 AM

Wait, wait wait! I thought the Mckellen/Dumbledore thing was just a rumour!Wasn't some irish guy being dumbledore?:confused:

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 11:04 AM

i read it in an article somewhere on the moot. ill go try and find it. brb

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 11:09 AM

oh wait you were right. it is michael gambon and he is irish. i wish richard harris was still alive he was sooo good at dumbledore:(

Black Breathalizer

05-11-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I don't believe event the movie Aragorn would go into a battle he knows he cannot win.I understand what you're saying based on Helm's Deep, but the War of the Ring will be a different deal.

Gandalf's plan straight from the book is to send the armies of the West to the gates of Mordor knowing full well that they cannot win. My bet is that Jackson plays this to the hilt. The sense will be they are all going to their doom but by taking the fight to Mordor, they will give the Ringbearer the only chance he has to accomplish his mission.

Based on this rumor about Sauron, I can envision the following scenario:

1. The armies of the West bring their fight to the gates of Mordor.

2. The Mouth of Sauron (a GREAT choice of actor by the way, he's that creepy "wormtonguish-like" dude from The Road Warrior) will have his confrontation with Gandalf and company and show them Frodo's mithril coat.

3. War will break out between the two sides that will make the prologue of FOTR look like a picnic.

4. Just like in the prologue, Sauron, himself, will appear on the scene. The hordes will part and all from the West who stand before him will be mowed down effortlessly.

5. Suddenly Aragorn steps forward holding a shining sword. Sauron pauses for an instant, recognizing the sword and the lineage of this lone man now standing before him...before he attacks...as the final moments of the War of the Ring come to a dramatic and glorious end.

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 11:12 AM

yeah I will miss him:(

Edit: by him I meant richard harris, not sauron

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 11:14 AM

i can see it now....:p

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 11:15 AM

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 11:18 AM

i bet PJ did it cheap. probably used the prologue of the movie and then threw aragorn instead of isildur and then threw gandalf somewhere along with a couple of hobbits and voila you have the war of the ring:D

Elf Girl

05-11-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Gandalf's plan straight from the book is to send the armies of the West to the gates of Mordor knowing full well that they cannot win. My bet is that Jackson plays this to the hilt. The sense will be they are all going to their doom but by taking the fight to Mordor, they will give the Ringbearer the only chance he has to accomplish his mission.
But look. What the armies of the West were trying to accomplish is to make it look like they had the Ring and were over-confident, thus distracting Sauron from seeing the Ringbearer, yes? So from Sauron's point of view, an army with the Ring shows up to challenge him, guy with the Ring steps out and attacks him- but wait! Aragorn doesn't have the Ring! Send the Nazgul to Mt. Doom! ...and then the Ring is coincidentally destroyed and Sauron goes up in a puff of smoke. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Based on this rumor about Sauron, I can envision the following scenario:

1. The armies of the West bring their fight to the gates of Mordor.

2. The Mouth of Sauron (a GREAT choice of actor by the way, he's that creepy "wormtonguish-like" dude from The Road Warrior) will have his confrontation with Gandalf and company and show them Frodo's mithril coat.

3. War will break out between the two sides that will make the prologue of FOTR look like a picnic.
Good so far.

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
4. Just like in the prologue, Sauron, himself, will appear on the scene. The hordes will part and all from the West who stand before him will be mowed down effortlessly.
Just like in the prologue... except for one tiny miniscule differance- Sauron hasn't got the Ring! And Gandalf is here. A Maia. To the audience, a really cool old guy who killed that firey thing with horns and no wings ( :D). We don't know what he can accomplish, we're thinking, "Why doesn't Gandalf do something?"

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
5. Suddenly Aragorn steps forward holding a shining sword. Sauron pauses for an instant, recognizing the sword and the lineage of this lone man now standing before him...before he attacks...as the final moments of the War of the Ring come to a dramatic and glorious end.
Sauron pauses for an instant, recognizing the sword and the lineage of this lone man now standing before him...before he attacks...and for no reason at all...Sauron goes up in a puff of smoke...as the final moments of the War of the Ring come to a confusing end.

Also: If Arwen said: 'You will face the same evil and you will defeat it', then it doesn't come true. Aragorn doesn't defeat Sauron, Frodo does. (Or Gollum or Sam if you want to be annoying.) So basically Aragorn doesn't have to do anything, just wave his pretty reforged sword his Xenarwen hot elf babe brought him.

Again, what about the confusion factor? A quote from my original post:
Now wait just a second. Don't you think it will confuse people? I thought the movie was saying this: (about Sauron's physical form.)

After the Ring was taken from him at the Last Alliance, he no longer had a 'body', but was a flaming eye.

If the attatchment below is not Sauron's form in the movie Third Age, then what is it? His logo? His sign, 'Sauron. All purpose Dark Lord for hire'?

(Go back to the original post for attachment, but here's another anyway.)

azalea

05-11-2003, 02:17 PM

I just have to say that the one thing I dislike about moderating is having to read the posts that contain spoilers. I don't like spoilers.:( (Don't forget we have the grey spoiler thingy you can use when you post, even if you just put it over certain key words.)

Cirdan

05-11-2003, 03:02 PM

but don't you have to mod the spoiler text, too?

Elf Girl

05-11-2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by azalea
I just have to say that the one thing I dislike about moderating is having to read the posts that contain spoilers. I don't like spoilers.:( (Don't forget we have the grey spoiler thingy you can use when you post, even if you just put it over certain key words.)
I'll mod the spoilers for you, if you want. :D

Black Breathalizer

05-11-2003, 04:29 PM

gimli7410

05-11-2003, 04:32 PM

markedel

05-11-2003, 06:02 PM

This spoiler is making me ill. :(

Gwaimir Windgem

05-11-2003, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
It would be very logical for Sauron to fight Aragorn. He would be a stronger match physically than anyone else (although still not in Sauron's league) but more importantly, he is the heir of Isildur. I'm sure Sauron would like nothing better than to kick his butt. It would be the classic 'david versus goliath' scene and a very dramatic finale to the war of the ring.

Okay, before you said that this is done for dramatic purposes, and now we decide to do logic. Please be consistent. :rolleyes: Also, I HIGHLY doubt he'd be a stronger match physically than anyone, but it does not matter, as Sauron is NOT a physical being, but a spiritual (or, as I believe Tolkien said, 'divine') one. The only reason he's made into a physical, armor-clad giant is to satisfy PJ's infatuation with the monstrous.

That's the drama, Elf Girl. Aragorn and the audience know that Sauron will beat him to a plup. The suspense is whether or not Aragorn will survive until the ring is destroyed. Aragorn's act is a self-sacrificing one. He expects to die.

And now we're back to drama? :rolleyes: Make up your mind! :p

I understand what you're saying based on Helm's Deep, but the War of the Ring will be a different deal.

The War of the Ring was

Bombadillo

05-11-2003, 06:38 PM

Soon the public has got to notice how much the movies contradict themselves, and therefore how much they suck.

With some luck PJ will suffer some accidental impalement with a sword during his next cameo.

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 06:43 PM

accidental , you say???;)

Gwaimir Windgem

05-11-2003, 06:44 PM

:eek: That's not nice...:p I would say "with some luck, PJ will quietly retire from the field with his money from these movies." ;)

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 06:52 PM

Okay, I can live with that.

Ya know, all this stuff sorta makes you wonder, why didn't chris tolkien direct the movies or something? The guy's still alive, right?

Gwaimir Windgem

05-11-2003, 07:19 PM

Indeed he is. It would have been good if he had. :( I expect it has to do with not thinking Tolkien's book could be translated well to movie.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-11-2003, 07:19 PM

EDIT: Double-post. For more information, please refer to my title.

Dreran the Green

05-11-2003, 07:22 PM

Well, it would've been better translated if he had done it

LuthienTinuviel

05-11-2003, 09:03 PM

Why are you back, BB?

i hope that i can say i know a few things about making movies (or god help you all when i start making REAL ones.)

while i know that it is impossible to turn a movie page for page onto the screen, there are some sacred things that are appalling to behold when altered.
Take the movie holes for example, BB. they turned that book straight into a movie. it was an awesome movie...... if you'd read the book.
Why am i acting like im on your side, BB?
I am trying to show you, [edited] , that i understand that movies made from books have to be changed to make them appeal to the general public. (who's average reading level is that of a first grader)

but like i said. some changes are completely unacceptable.
Sauron and aragorn should not fight. that's end of story. no one cares when something sacred is sacrificed for the masses' pleasure.
will it create drama and action and be exciting? of course it will that's why he is putting it in there.
burning down a church is also excitng and full of drama. but you don't cheer when your local temple/mosque etc is up in flames. (at least i hope not)

good lord, this thread makes me sick. really. it's bad enough, but your presence here makes me physically ill.

edited by azalea for use of inappropriate phrase.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-11-2003, 09:19 PM

Back in Business! :D

Bombadillo

05-12-2003, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Okay, I can live with that.

Ya know, all this stuff sorta makes you wonder, why didn't chris tolkien direct the movies or something? The guy's still alive, right? That's a much better idea. Hopefully he will one day.

Black Breathalizer

05-12-2003, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
I am trying to show you...that i understand that movies made from books have to be changed to make them appeal to the general public. (who's average reading level is that of a first grader) but like i said. some changes are completely unacceptable. Sauron and aragorn should not fight. that's end of story. no one cares when something sacred is sacrificed for the masses' pleasure.Hello Luthien Tinuviel. First off, thank you for your heartfelt words. I've missed you too. :)

Second, be careful, Ms. Nose-in-the-Air---you are showing your elitist prejudices again.

Third, Sauron and Aragorn DO FIGHT in LOTR. It's not literal hand-to-hand combat, but the two most certainly are pitted against each other. So what's so wrong about showing Sauron at the scene of the battle for crying out loud? If you purists are so upset about it, what makes it so wrong? And please give me more than "b-b-but he wasn't there in the book!"

squinteyedsoutherner

05-12-2003, 09:11 AM

BB, even if it doesn't happen in the film you can always pretend with your action figures - some people require a little more intellectual depth than you when watching films BB, get over it.

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
...Third, Sauron and Aragorn DO FIGHT in LOTR. It's not literal hand-to-hand combat, but the two most certainly are pitted against each other. So what's so wrong about showing Sauron at the scene of the battle for crying out loud? If you purists are so upset about it, what makes it so wrong? And please give me more than "b-b-but he wasn't there in the book!"

If you don't have a reasonable argument, don't flame LT.

The whole point of Sauron being behind the scenes is because that is his method of operation, EDITED. See? He does not come out and fight hand to hand with someone. That would be foolish and risky. Instead, he works his lies and corrupts others to do his bidding for him. EDITED That is far more evil than standing before your enemy with weapon in hand, EDITED. And he learned this from his master, Melkor... who only rarely met anyone face to face in combat, and only when he knew he had little or no risk to himself.

But Hollywood has to make the assumption that the masses would not understand this form of fighting. Much like you, BB, they do not see that the truely evil leaders in actual history did not stand on the battlefield and risk their lives in hand to hand combat, but had legions do it for them, they were cowards. They won't make the link in their small, limited minds... just like you won't EDITED... that truely evil leaders delight in the pleasure of other's dying for their twisted cause, and the power this gives them over other's lives.

This is what Tolkien understood, and wrote about. That you apparently do not understand, although you claim to have read the books. That truely evil beings work their evil through the corruption of others, standing back watching their plan unfold, reaping the glory with no risk to themselves.

Beren, Son of Barahir

05-12-2003, 01:05 PM

Honestly I thought it could not get any worse than the Elves at Helms Deep and leaving out Tom but this is by far the worse! If Sauron appears at the end instead of the Mouth of Sauron I swear to God I'm going to pour kerosine all over the people in the movie and ignite the place in a fiery blaze. Sauron could not show himself at Mordor because if he did he would stand a chance in being killed by perhaps Gandalf or Aragorn as many would think. Sauron's trump card is that he has been defeated many times but always was defeated from his throne and thus he could just go hiding away and right yet again for a time to return. He did not want to take any chances before which is why he had the Naz'gul retrieve the ring for him. He knew once he got it back nothing would stand in his way so why bother risking it?

While your at it why not just have Aragorn run into Mordor with that "click click boom" er whatever song playing as Legolas use 4 Orc nuts and a Hobbit as a skateboard while grinding misc mountain edges. Than have Gimli tumble town like the bumbling idiot that the movie has portrayed him to be. And right before Aragorn "kills" Sauron he says "Game over beeeaattcchh". And thus ending the movie and putting to shame one of the greatest stories of all time.

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 01:35 PM

LOL! Oh, damn... LOL! I was thinking maybe Aragorn could be dressed in fatigues with a vest full of grendades tossing them off left and right at the hordes of Orcs running at him from all directions, sending them flying throught the air with loud pyrotechnics!!!! Then he meets up with Sauron... looks down his 45 and squeezes off an array of bullets one after the other into his chest, saying "Hasta la vista, baby!" Then the camara pans to Sauron's bullet ridden body as he gasps desperately for his last breath, Aragorn looks down and spits on him.

...........cool.

Lalaith_Elf

05-12-2003, 01:37 PM

hmmmm.... then viggo mortensen would have to be replaced with arnie.... if that was going to happen;)

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 02:25 PM

Ah, nah... surely Viggo could adjust to the roll. ;)

And surely this little change would be an improvement to Tolkien's silly, little adventure.... wouldn't it, BB?

.................................................. ...............(smell the sarcasm)

Lizra

05-12-2003, 02:36 PM

Hey! Ruinel, this is the second thread I've come across your offensive "spoilers" . Quit it! :mad:

mithrand1r

05-12-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
LOL! Oh, damn... LOL! I was thinking maybe Aragorn could be dressed in fatigues with a vest full of grendades tossing them off left and right at the hordes of Orcs running at him from all directions, sending them flying throught the air with loud pyrotechnics!!!! Then he meets up with Sauron... looks down his 45 and squeezes off an array of bullets one after the other into his chest, saying "Hasta la vista, baby!" Then the camara pans to Sauron's bullet ridden body as he gasps desperately for his last breath, Aragorn looks down and spits on him.

...........cool.

If you wanted gratuitous violence, you should model Aragorn after the "Punisher". ;)

Sincerely,
Anthony
:cool:

Cirdan

05-12-2003, 03:15 PM

I think Arwen should run off with Frodo right before the wedding. Pippen gets in a drunken bar fight with Denethor. Maybe Sam should Matrix fight with Gollum on Mt. Doom. The Nazgul could be on primative monster cars ala Road Warrior. Frodo finds out that Mt. Doom is actually a doomsday machine that is operated by the ring. The plains of Gorgoroth could be filled with giant sand worms which Sam and Frodo ride to the top of Mt. Doom.

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Lizra
Hey! Ruinel, this is the second thread I've come across your offensive "spoilers" . Quit it! :mad:

Yeah, you are right. *hangs head in shame* I apologize. I've edited myself. I'm having a bad day, but that's no excuse. See my sig? I'm trying not to flame, one post at a time. Hope you forgive me.

Lizra

05-12-2003, 03:29 PM

Remember...We come here for fun! Cheer up!

azalea

05-12-2003, 03:48 PM

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Cirdan
I think Arwen should run off with Frodo right before the wedding. Pippen gets in a drunken bar fight with Denethor. Maybe Sam should Matrix fight with Gollum on Mt. Doom. The Nazgul could be on primative monster cars ala Road Warrior. Frodo finds out that Mt. Doom is actually a doomsday machine that is operated by the ring. The plains of Gorgoroth could be filled with giant sand worms which Sam and Frodo ride to the top of Mt. Doom.

..........dude! righteous! Maybe more of the other characters could be involved in the bar fight.... a huge drunken brawl that smashes up the bar then spills out into the streets of Gondor... dude!!! Rock on!!!!

Originally posted by mithrand1r
If you wanted gratuitous violence, you should model Aragorn after the "Punisher".
Well... then we'd have to make a few changes. But I'm sure it would be up PJ's alley. :D

First, Aragorn and Arwen get married, have a son. Sauron kills them (wife and son) in a senseless violent killing spree intended to punish Aragorn for his insolence in defying Sauron. Aragorn vows revenge and finally, after tracking down Sauron like a hell bent dog finds him... and his lackey Grima. After a bloody knife fight with Grima, beating Grima down, Aragorn pulls out a flamethrower and incinderates Grima where his broken body lays crumpled in a heap on the floor. Then he goes after Sauron, who has already pulled out an Uzi and has begun firing at Aragorn. Aragorn miraculously avoids the fray of bullets, diving, rolling then pulling out a 45, he then pumps Sauron full of lead. ... then he spits on him.
Is that better?

Lalaith_Elf

05-12-2003, 04:56 PM

nah.... arwen should still go off with frodo... and i'm too tired to comment any furthur otherwise all you'll get is must sleep...... bed.... to.... sleep

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Lalaith_Elf
nah.... arwen should still go off with frodo... and i'm too tired to comment any furthur otherwise all you'll get is must sleep...... bed.... to.... sleep
GAH! Work with me people! Work with me! Do you know how much time I spent into those scenarios? (about 3 minutes max)

*sigh* fine... I'll rewrite Frodo and Arwen's parts. Dammit! But now I have to have a new motivation for Aragorn. Ah, wait... Aragorn and Legolas... homosexual, cross racial affair... waddayasay?

Bombadillo

05-12-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ah, wait... Aragorn and Legolas... homosexual, cross racial affair... waddayasay? I don't think that'll go over very well with the fangirls.

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Bombadillo
I don't think that'll go over very well with the fangirls.
sigh... very well... Legolas and Aragorn are good friends at college. Aragorn thinks he's in love with Arwen, who is attending another college. When Aragorn has sex with Eowen and films it. Then sends the film by mistake to Arwen, thinking its some cheesy, sappy video he's made of himself telling her how much he loves her. Then once it is revealed that he has sent her the wrong video, he and his buddies: Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin set out on a cross Middle Earth, fun filled adventure filled with beer drinking and babe chasing, and where virginal Legolas finally [edited for content]. When Aragorn finally meets up with Arwen at her 'U' he swaps the tapes but finds that she's already fallen in love with Frodo (see how I worked that in?). She dumps Aragorn, who goes back to his own 'U' and [edited] Eowen for the remainder of the semester. We'll need to rate this at a minimum of PG-13 for language, sex, and consumption of alcohol.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to work Sauron into this scenario. But give me some time. ;)

[Sorry, Ruinel, but I had to edit another of your posts. Please try to keep it at a true PG-13 level. Thanks. -- azalea]

Black Breathalizer

05-12-2003, 08:44 PM

With every serious rumor that's come out on these films, the reaction is to immediately freak out and act like the world is coming to an end. It happened with Arwen, it happened with Boromir and the ring, it happened with Eowyn, and now it's happening with Sauron.

It's been expressed here by Ruinel that Sauron would never appear on the battlefield himself. Oh really? Gee, how was it that Isildur came by the ring in the first place? I can hear the response now, "b-b-but Sauron woulda learned his lesson from THAT war and would never, ever, ever show up on a battlefield again." Seems to me that without a ring to cut off his finger, he would feel pretty indestructable. Also, if the ring WAS going to be on the battlefield, seems to me that Sauron would be no different than Gollum, he'd want to be there to claim it himself after its wearer was killed.

Did Sauron appear on the battlefield in the book? no. But there is no denying that it makes perfect sense for the film.

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
It's been expressed here by Ruinel that Sauron would never appear on the battlefield himself. Oh really? Gee, how was it that Isildur came by the ring in the first place? I can hear the response now, "b-b-but Sauron woulda learned his lesson from THAT war and would never, ever, ever show up on a battlefield again." Seems to me that without a ring to cut off his finger, he would feel pretty indestructable. Also, if the ring WAS going to be on the battlefield, seems to me that Sauron would be no different than Gollum, he'd want to be there to claim it himself after its wearer was killed.

Did Sauron appear on the battlefield in the book? no. But there is no denying that it makes perfect sense for the film.
The battle was already played out when he steps out on the field.
Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them {see not Sauron, yet!!!!!!!!}. There in the valley of Grogoroth Anarion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell.
A siege that lasted 7 years (I'll wait a moment until you're finished counting that on your fingers).... Many fought, many died!!! But not Sauron. Because Sauron had his hordes doing his fighting for him. It was not until the last moments of the battle, after 7 long years of death and destruction does Sauron actual meet his enemies, face to face. And where is Sauron all this time? Gosh... that's a toughie, now isn't it... sorry, I don't feel like pretending this is a movie and spoon feeding you your information. Figure it out.

Cirdan

05-12-2003, 09:12 PM

*boo... non-sequitur*

I deny that it makes perfect sense. Hey it is possible.

Now, where were we...

I think Gimli could be a cross-dresser, but since he is a dwarf it is impossible to tell. Faramir should be Gandalf's love child. So much more drama there. It's all about the drama after all. Drama, drama, drama. Of course Saruman's connection to the Shire should be as a drug cartel. Tobacco is so passe and drugs would really make it more accessable to the modern audience. This gives the possibility of extensive car(t) cases and subsequent crashes and shootouts. Searching for a new title. Bored of the Rings:The Movie is too long.

Bombadillo

05-12-2003, 09:16 PM

But he just can't take physical form to show up for the company at the Gates. Impossible! It's as simple as that. PJ would be contradicting himself again.

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Cirdan
*boo... non-sequitur*
I really don't see how my post is nonsequitur (btw, there's no dash after 'non' in nonsequitur) ... since BB was addressing Isildur getting the ring and making a very lame attempted at showing how this proves that Sauron's place is the final 'show down' at the OK Corral should be with his pistols blazing in the streets with Aragorn popping his 6-shooter at the other end.

I'm trying to show that the battle that ended the second age was under different circumstances. Sauron had the One Ring already, and thus far more power than he has without it. The siege had been going on for already seven long years. It isn't until the battle was so 'stressed' that Sauron finally comes forth and faces Gil-galad and Elendil.

In the battle that ends the third age, Sauron does not have the One Ring. He does not have his full strength and power. It makes no sense for him to come out onto the battlefield and face Aragorn and the legions that have come to war with his hordes.

This is why it was cleverly written this way in the first place. The discerning viewer watching this movie is going to wonder certain things about that scenario. Why is Sauron facing his enemy when he doesn't have his full strength? Has Sauron suddenly become valiant and courageous? Here he is, standing bravely before his enemy... wow, we were wrong about the bad guy. Maybe he's not as smart as we thought, or maybe he's not as bad as we thought. He's going to fight and die with his loyal servants after all.

Oh, and BB... quit being a [edited] when you write your posts. I'm beginning to wonder about your sexual preferrence.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-12-2003, 09:45 PM

Hobbit-lasses all the way! Yeah, baby, yeah! :D

Ruinel

05-12-2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Cirdan
[BNow, where were we...
I think Gimli could be a cross-dresser, but since he is a dwarf it is impossible to tell. Faramir should be Gandalf's love child. So much more drama there. It's all about the drama after all. Drama, drama, drama. Of course Saruman's connection to the Shire should be as a drug cartel. Tobacco is so passe and drugs would really make it more accessable to the modern audience. This gives the possibility of extensive car(t) cases and subsequent crashes and shootouts. Searching for a new title. Bored of the Rings:The Movie is too long. [/B]
No... too artsy... the masses will not go see nor bring their children to see a cross dressing dwarf. But your idea has merit.

hmmm... lets make him a pimp for Arwen and Eowen... err... who became hookers because they became addicted to the 'weed' in the Southfarthing. Sauron is the leader of the drug cartel, Saruman is his right hand man, Grima is the cartel connection who ferries the 'weed' between the Shire and the many distributorships.
Aragorn, who was once the fiance to Arwen (prewhore/predrug adicted), works for the local drug enforcement agency in Gondor, assigned to Bree, undercover. bla, bla, bla....
... skip to final scene... where Aragorn [The rest of this post was complete spam and was inappropriately violent. You need to stick to the topic. A couple of humorous off-topic posts is fine, but this is going too far. -- azalea]

Cirdan

05-12-2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
I really don't see how my post is nonsequitur

That was for BB's post...

Oh, and BB... quit being a [edited] when you write your posts. I'm beginning to wonder about your sexual preferrence.

LOL

Cirdan

05-12-2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
hmmm... lets make him a pimp for Arwen and Eowen... err... *edit*

I like the gore, very PJ. Saruman could be revealed as an alien or maybe a robot, for the extended "whoops! He's not dead yet!" gambit. There could be maybe a Fargoesque chipper shredder scene worked into the Black Gate bit. Don't want to get bogged down into too much storyline.

Dont' forget romance. The wedding much be extra dramatic. Aragorn runs from the altar telling Arwen she should go to Valinor and take "her little hobbit friend" with her. They elope in the end and give the kingdom to Faramir, who is actually an alien robot (for the sequel).

Artanis

05-13-2003, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Seems to me that without a ring to cut off his finger, he would feel pretty indestructable. Also, if the ring WAS going to be on the battlefield, seems to me that Sauron would be no different than Gollum, he'd want to be there to claim it himself after its wearer was killed.

Did Sauron appear on the battlefield in the book? no. But there is no denying that it makes perfect sense for the film. I can see your point on other issues BB, but this doesn't make sense to me. Sauron has become strong, but in the book I see him basicly as a coward despite all his power, so he prefers to put his servants in the frontline, and let them collect the Ring for him. He would come forth himself only when he thinks nobody can hurt him, as he thought when he wore the Ring.

That said, if Sauron do come forth in the film, I don't think I'll have serious objections. In a way it would make perfect sense if we actually see him being destroyed on the battlefield, to echo the way he was conquered in the battle with the Last Alliance.

Let's wait for the movie and see how it works out. :)

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Cirdan
That was for BB's post...
Ah... sorry. :D

I like the gore, very PJ. .... Don't want to get bogged down into too much storyline....Dont' forget romance.
Dang! Yes... what am I thinking. Our target audience should be boys between the ages of 13 and 21. They're not going to want to go see a sappy love story and certainly not a wedding. Ok, *pulls scissors out... snip, snip* ... that part is now cut.

We can work in Fargo's chipper shredder (I'm pretty sure it's still available from props). But I'm torn between having Grima put into it or Saruman. Give me your thoughts on this and I'll come up with a new scenario that includes the chipper shredder.

Besides, I like the idea of someone (I really don't care who) having [edited]. Let's try to keep that scene. More mass appeal to our target audience.

Artanis: no, no, no... we see the light now (thank you BB)... we're going to rework the movie so that it has more mass appeal to a target audience, and give it more of PJ's style. To hell with the books. Who would want to see a movie that tells some old codger's story anyway. Certainly, no one actually reads those silly, old books. hahahaha. We'll use the name of the book, certainly. That will give our movie a credibility as a classic brought to the screen. But there's a whole lot in this book that.... errr... just doesn't have the same mass appeal. Our goal isn't to bring an actual classic to the big screen. Oh no... please... the goal here is to make: MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. :) Jump on the bandwagon with us Artanis.

Sheeana

05-13-2003, 07:37 AM

Oh no! You've all gone to the dark side. :eek: :(

Lizra

05-13-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Artanis

That said, if Sauron do come forth in the film, I don't think I'll have serious objections. In a way it would make perfect sense if we actually see him being destroyed on the battlefield, to echo the way he was conquered in the battle with the Last Alliance.

Let's wait for the movie and see how it works out. :)

I agree! :) Can't wait to see what happens!

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Sheeana
Oh no! You've all gone to the dark side. :eek: :(
*drool hangs from lower lip, eyes gloss over*
[monotone voice]come... join us... see the light for which BB has shown us... join us.... be a part of the PJ collective... resistance is futile...[/monotone voice]
*3 long metal prongs pop out of the top of right hand*
[monotone voice]....you will be assimilated... resistance is futile...[/monotone voice]
*Ruinel lunges prongs toward Sheeana's neck*

Artanis

05-13-2003, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Ruinel
Jump on the bandwagon with us Artanis. I'll leave the reworking to you Ruinel, you're so much better than me there. ;)

I'm unable to feel bad about rumours of a single scene in a film that hasn't been released yet. Even if those rumours should be true, I want to see the whole movie and then judge.

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 10:25 AM

I FOUND IT! I FOUND THE CHIPPER SHREDDER!!
We can do the scene now!!! :D

[edited]

Anglorfin

05-13-2003, 10:45 AM

Best . . .smiley . . evar . . .

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Anglorfin
Best . . .smiley . . evar . . .
righteous... dude... rock on!!!!

Cirdan

05-13-2003, 11:22 AM

now that's art!

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 11:36 AM

Why thank you... :D

I'm thinking Aragorn could come out blazing like this...
http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/blackeye/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
And I'm trying to work something like this into the last movie, but I'm not sure if it will be Grima or Saruman...
[edited]

azalea

05-13-2003, 02:07 PM

Ruinel: Please stop spamming and putting inappropriately violent content in your posts. I have had to edit several of them.

Everyone: The subject is Speculation about the spoiler posted by Sween. Stay on topic, please.

Sween

05-13-2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by azalea
Ruinel: Please stop spamming and putting inappropriately violent content in your posts. I have had to edit several of them.

Everyone: The subject is Speculation about the spoiler posted by Sween. Stay on topic, please.

people that take my threads off topic deserve to be........well would say killed but im a peace loving man at heart so ill just say get a smacked bottom.

Right bk on topic. How can this be true i mean no one thats read the books could possiably think this is a good idea :(

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 02:28 PM

Sorry... I thought we were providing productive suggestions to enhance and improve the ending of Tolkien's work to submit to PJ.

Ok, not really. I'm being a sarcastic {Old English: bicce}, b/c I was ticked off. :mad: I admit it! :mad:
(Seriously, though, I didn't think they were that violent. :rolleyes: )

Sween: in answer to your question. Obviously, he has read the books and dismissed them.

Wayfarer

05-13-2003, 03:41 PM

It's been expressed here by Ruinel that Sauron would never appear on the battlefield himself. Oh really? Gee, how was it that Isildur came by the ring in the first place? I can hear the response now, "b-b-but Sauron woulda learned his lesson from THAT war and would never, ever, ever show up on a battlefield again." Seems to me that without a ring to cut off his finger, he would feel pretty indestructable. Also, if the ring WAS going to be on the battlefield, seems to me that Sauron would be no different than Gollum, he'd want to be there to claim it himself after its wearer was killed.

Am I the only person that finds it appearant that BB is nothing but a poseur? He obviously has such a limited understaning of Tolkien that I find myself wondering what he's doing on this forum, and and on the very verge of deciding his posts aren't worth replying to.

That said.

Sauron was a manipulator. He was a manuverer. He was a strategist. A chessplayer, a puppetmaster.
He was a coward.

Never once did he willingly engage in open combat himself. He faced Felagund, but only to strip the company of their disguise, and then when he had them surrounded by an entire fortress of orcs and werewolves. He sent every wolf on the island, from least to greatest, to die at huan's jaws before he faced the hound of valinor himself, was defeated, and surrendered. When the Valar came, he surrendered again, and then fled. When Ar-Pharazon came to wrest middle earth from his grasp, and his armies fled, Sauron surrendered and worked to manipulate things back to his advantage. At the last alliance of elves and men, he waited seven years, seven long years while his armies were slaughtered, until he had no hope left, and even then he did not fight himself until his enemies had come to his very door and had no choice.

Think about it.

Seems to me that without a ring to cut off his finger, he would feel pretty indestructable.

Now. Is this, or is this not, the height of stupidity, folks? Come on, Breathalizer, even someone as obviously halfwitted as you. No, scratch that, because I like the halfwits, even someone as obviously dimwitted as you should be able to grasp the simple fact that Sauron Lost Most of His Power With the Ring. There. One sentance, with nice, small words that you can understand. Want me to say it again?

Sauron was never powerful or strong on the battlefield. He was wise, yes, and crafty, a necromancer who had undead warriors to fight for him. He didn't need to fight.
With the loss of the ring, and so much of his power divested in the control of his forces, the dark lord was personally weaker at this time in history than any time before. He would NOT face the enemy that he feared himself.

[Edited to remove speculation on Breathalizer's heritage, mental health, education, and possible conjugal relationship with Peter Jackson]

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Am I the only person that finds it appearant that BB is nothing but a poseur?
The only reason you are asking this is because you didn't wade through the posts that ran off on tangents (ok, spams, I'm bad about that, sorry!).

Sauron was a manipulator. He was a manuverer. He was a strategist. A chessplayer, a puppetmaster.
He was a coward.

Sing it brother!

[Edited to remove speculation on Breathalizer's heritage, mental health, education, and possible conjugal relationship with Peter Jackson]
:p I said that too... but I got a whoopin' for it. :D

Elfhelm

05-13-2003, 04:27 PM

I have no guess as to why BB would defend a possible decision by Jackson. I was pretty surprised to see him jump in on the thread. He must be preparing his case for the entire next year and a half of argument. It's like he takes delight in mocking other members. The worst thing to do is play his game.

I can say, without stuttering (which is a politically incorrect insult to all people with speech impediments), and without repeatedly saying "very", that Sauron does not belong on the battlefield. He's the sort of leader who would fly down to the battlefield after the combat to gloat, all decked out like a real soldier. But during confrontations he stays in his dark little hidingplace scowling and talking tough.

Wayfarer

05-13-2003, 04:35 PM

]:-D

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by azalea
Ruinel: Please stop spamming and putting inappropriately violent content in your posts. I have had to edit several of them.

Everyone: The subject is Speculation about the spoiler posted by Sween. Stay on topic, please.
Ok. I'm going to explain why I went so far off, but it really was on topic. I had a point to make.

First, BB is claiming that these endings that have been rumored are 'improvements' to Tolkien's story. Something I find quite offensive. BB has belittled and name called those he calls 'purists'. Yet, no one edits his posts. I'm not complaining because I am quite capable of taking care of myself. I can certainly give it back if he can dish it out. All the posts I made with changes to Tolkien's story are there to make a point.

That point is this: the writer has a vision; he/she tells a story. If you take on a classic work, such as LotR, you should not alter it's fundamental core story and characters. By making these alterations and not holding true to the story, whether or not your intentions are good or not, you ruin it! And all you have that resembles the real story (the book) is a title, and the names of the characters and places! CASE CLOSED!!!!

And just for the record, my butt is sore from being the only one gettin' spanked in this thread. hint, hint!!!!!! :mad:

This spoiler is for azalea. Please do not read it Lizra, you will be offended, guaranteed. Anyone else is free to read at your own risk!:
BTW: I can't believe you edited the story about Aragorn blowing Sauron's teeth out of the back of his skull with two .45's. That was pure art!

Balrog_of_Morgoth

05-13-2003, 07:03 PM

Well, I tend to be on the fence on this issue. I agree on one hand that the evil of Sauron was at its scariest best when it was only insinuated, not actually present. As we all know, in the LOTR trilogy, he never makes an appearance, unless you count the Palantir and the shadow or specter of him at the end when the ring is destroyed.

However, in the movie, I think the fact that they actually showed him in the Last Alliance locked them in to having to show him in the conclusion. It would just seem odd if you never saw him again. I just hope they do it with some style and class. I was happy with the prologue, so I'll be optimistic and say it will be good, if this rumor is really true.

I think we must remember that it is far easier to insinuate things in a book than it is in a movie. It is very easy for us armchair critics to take shots, but another story altogether to actually make a complete trilogy of movies.

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
However, in the movie, I think the fact that they actually showed him in the Last Alliance locked them in to having to show him in the conclusion. It would just seem odd if you never saw him again. I just hope they do it with some style and class. I was happy with the prologue, so I'll be optimistic and say it will be good, if this rumor is really true.

I have to disagree. PJ is not locked into showing Sauron.

As I stated earlier, it was ok to show him in the war that ended the second age. He had the Ruling Ring (a.k.a. the One Ring). The battle lasted for 7 years not days, not months... years. Sauron does not show himself until he is pressed to it by the advancements of Gil-galad and Elendil. Had they not gotten that far, surely Sauron would have been happy to sit back and have his battle plan played out by others, for as long as it took and for as many lives as it took. As long as his was safely tucked away behind his fortress walls.

He's not the type, as has also been pointed out by others, to don his armour and ride out with the troops at the beginning of the battle. He is a coward. The worst type of evil. And furthermore, he does not have his full power: he still does not have the One Ring! It is not in his character to risk himself in battle unless he has no choice.

Example: Hitler. I don't recall any battles in which he lead his troops against the Allies. Anyone? Anyone? I'm not a history buff, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dreran the Green

05-13-2003, 07:26 PM

I'm pretty sure he didn't. We have been studying the Holocaust for countless months and my teacher is OBSESSED with history. Like, REALLY obsessed.

Balrog_of_Morgoth

05-13-2003, 08:30 PM

Ruinel:

I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly regarding the nature of Sauron. But we have already departed from the books forever, unfortunately.

You have swayed me a little. Now, I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing. I'll have to think about it for a while.

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
I think we must remember that it is far easier to insinuate things in a book than it is in a movie. It is very easy for us armchair critics to take shots, but another story altogether to actually make a complete trilogy of movies.
Agreed, that it is difficult to bring a book like LotR to the big screen. And agreed, that it is easier to sit back and criticise. And agreed that the movie as beautiful cinematography and impressive props, etc., etc.....

My beef here is not that PJ did his best, for we can see that his heart was in the wrong place. It was that there are too many changes that were done to appeal to a target audience. It would have been better for him to have stayed true to Tolkien's works and have faith that his movie would have been a success, not turn his loyalty to Hollywood.

And my second beef is with BB for saying that PJ improved upon Tolkien! For that, I can never forgive his insolence!!!! With BB, war we shall have and hatred undying!!!

Originally posted by Balrog of Morgoth
I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly regarding the nature of Sauron.
One down. :D

Black Breathalizer

05-13-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
My beef here is not that PJ did his best, for we can see that his heart was in the wrong place. It was that there are too many changes that were done to appeal to a target audience. It would have been better for him to have stayed true to Tolkien's works and have faith that his movie would have been a success, not turn his loyalty to Hollywood.How in the world can you say Peter Jackson's heart was in the wrong place? Have you ever listened to any PJ interviews? Have you listened to his DVD narrative? Do you know ANYTHING about Peter Jackson?!?!?

People quickly forget that in 1998 it was felt that LOTR was "The Unmakeable Movie." The conventional wisdom was that the story was too long, the details too complex, the characters too "hokey", and the action too plodding for commerical -- let alone critical -- success. As a huge LOTR fan, I read about this project with a high degree of skepticism. I didn't see how in the world PJ could do anything but disappoint all Tolkien fans as Bakshi had done years earlier.

The reality is that film making is an art AND a big business. A set of films that gave you the visual treat of Gandalf versus the Balrog costs a lot of money. 280 million to be exact. Look at the situation Jackson faced. The fate of an entire movie studio rested on his shoulders. It could be argued that he had more riding on his shoulders than any director in film history.

Now that the film series has achieved Star Wars-like cult status, it's easy to say, "oh PJ should have followed the books more literally." It's bold of you to sit in your ivory Tolkien towers and ignore the facts for your own selfish interests.

The reality is that Jackson has pulled off a modern film miracle and gave Tolkien fans everywhere more than most (except perhaps for the most selfish and niave) could have ever hoped to see on film.

Cirdan

05-13-2003, 10:10 PM

If you believe that conventional wisdom was that the characters were too hokey, then I can only conclude that "huge Tolkien fan" could only mean you are morbidly obese.

It is the fact that PJ proved he was able to bring the story to the screen in many scenes that makes the pointless or pandering changwes all the more irritating. If he had completely bungled the job then the details or the original story wouldn't matter much. Many of the minor changes do make the film work. Others are just cynical marketing, change for the sake of change, or adding a personal touch that is, at times, incompatible with the source material. Tolkien fans(even regular sized ones) have waited years for this and know it will not be done again for a very long time, if ever, so let them have their disappointments.

I'm wondering if there is a change so abominable that you wouldn't defend it, just for the sport of it. PJ is not above reproach just because of the magnitude of the work he has done and the success he has had. It's not valid to say, it's a perfect work becasue he worked hard and made lots of money.

I like the movies but my enthusiasm wains as the story deviates more from the fantasy aspect of the tale toward the action and adventure aspect.

Ruinel

05-13-2003, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The reality is that film making is an art AND a big business.
And a big business it is... and that is where PJ's heart is. And rightfully so. After all... would he ever work again in glitter city if he didn't fully submit himself to Hollywood's whims as well as demands? No, he would not. And you said it, not me.... :D

It's bold of you to sit in your ivory Tolkien towers and ignore the facts for your own selfish interests.
I have no selfish interests. I have nothing to gain or lose. Your post is flaming.

And now, you're just boring the crap out of me. bub-bye.

Cirdan

05-13-2003, 11:34 PM

Oscar Wilde once said, "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about", but then OW never met BB.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-14-2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Never once did he willingly engage in open combat himself. He faced Felagund, but only to strip the company of their disguise, and then when he had them surrounded by an entire fortress of orcs and werewolves. He sent every wolf on the island, from least to greatest, to die at huan's jaws before he faced the hound of valinor himself, was defeated, and surrendered. When the Valar came, he surrendered again, and then fled. When Ar-Pharazon came to wrest middle earth from his grasp, and his armies fled, Sauron surrendered and worked to manipulate things back to his advantage. At the last alliance of elves and men, he waited seven years, seven long years while his armies were slaughtered, until he had no hope left, and even then he did not fight himself until his enemies had come to his very door and had no choice.

Y'know, Sauron's starting to sound like someone from history...;)

No, scratch that, because I like the halfwits, even someone as obviously dimwitted as you should be able to grasp the simple fact that [B]Sauron Lost Most of His Power With the Ring.

Hey! :mad: :mad: :mad: I'M dimwitted! -points to title! Are you implying I'm related to BB? :eek: :eek: :eek: :(

Gwaimir Windgem

05-14-2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
How in the world can you say Peter Jackson's heart was in the wrong place? Have you ever listened to any PJ interviews? Have you listened to his DVD narrative? Do you know ANYTHING about Peter Jackson?!?!?

People quickly forget that in 1998 it was felt that LOTR was "The Unmakeable Movie." The conventional wisdom was that the story was too long, the details too complex, the characters too "hokey", and the action too plodding for commerical -- let alone critical -- success. As a huge LOTR fan, I read about this project with a high degree of skepticism. I didn't see how in the world PJ could do anything but disappoint all Tolkien fans as Bakshi had done years earlier.

The reality is that film making is an art AND a big business. A set of films that gave you the visual treat of Gandalf versus the Balrog costs a lot of money. 280 million to be exact. Look at the situation Jackson faced. The fate of an entire movie studio rested on his shoulders. It could be argued that he had more riding on his shoulders than any director in film history.

Now that the film series has achieved Star Wars-like cult status, it's easy to say, "oh PJ should have followed the books more literally." It's bold of you to sit in your ivory Tolkien towers and ignore the facts for your own selfish interests.

The reality is that Jackson has pulled off a modern film miracle and gave Tolkien fans everywhere more than most (except perhaps for the most selfish and niave) could have ever hoped to see on film.

-shakes head- You are really laughable. :)

I'm wondering if there is a change so abominable that you wouldn't defend it, just for the sport of it.

He said he would turn against PJ if Arwen killed the Witch-king. I'm beginning to strongly doubt it, though...:p

Lizra

05-14-2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Ruinel

This spoiler is for azalea. Please do not read it Lizra, you will be offended, guaranteed. Anyone else is free to read at your own risk!:
BTW: I can't believe you edited the story about Aragorn blowing Sauron's teeth out of the back of his skull with two .45's. That was pure art!

Your name is perfect. :rolleyes:

Ruinel

05-14-2003, 07:26 AM

I warned you. ;)

markedel

05-14-2003, 07:34 AM

With sauron afraid of anduril when it's far away, why would he actually confront it himself? Not that logical.

Black Breathalizer

05-14-2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Cirdan
If you believe that conventional wisdom was that the characters were too hokey, then I can only conclude that "huge Tolkien fan" could only mean you are morbidly obese.Quit flaming me and actually consider what I said for a change. Yes, conventional wisdom was that the characters (particularly furry-footed little hobbits) were too corney, hokey, hayseed, however you want to describe it for "modern" audiences. You have a main character who calls his boss "Master" and who often holds his hand, you have characters of different sizes (think Willow), lots of talking, singing and high sounding language, and countless male characters and a couple of women. To top it all off, it's a story with real values involved, "there's good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for!" Does this sound like a sure-fire blockbuster hollywood movie to you?

Gwaimir Windgem

05-14-2003, 10:19 AM

Heh. You sure you read the books, BB? Cause I don't think that line was in them. :p

Cirdan

05-14-2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Quit flaming me and actually consider what I said for a change.
Don't be "selfish and niave[sic]". I wouldn't flame anymore than you would.:p

Yes, conventional wisdom was that the characters (particularly furry-footed little hobbits) were too corney, hokey, hayseed, however you want to describe it for "modern" audiences. You have a main character who calls his boss "Master" and who often holds his hand, you have characters of different sizes (think Willow), lots of talking, singing and high sounding language, and countless male characters and a couple of women. To top it all off, it's a story with real values involved, "there's good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for!" Does this sound like a sure-fire blockbuster hollywood movie to you?

Hey, I liked WIllow. "I don't love her. She kicked me in the face!" Yeah, I guess you're right. Who would ever be interested in a story about Hobbits.:rolleyes: By your standards I'd guess you think Spiderman and Titanic were much better movies than LotR.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-14-2003, 10:31 AM

-snicker- Better than the book, maybe, but NEVER than the movie. :p

Ruinel

05-14-2003, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Quit flaming me [/i]
You shouldn't be talking!

Did someone hear a baby cry?

azalea

05-14-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel

And just for the record, my butt is sore from being the only one gettin' spanked in this thread. hint, hint!!!!!! :mad:

I edited at least one other person's post, and my warning above was for everyone. I'm sorry I had to single you out, but your posts were the ones that kept crossing that fine line.

This spoiler is for azalea. Please do not read it Lizra, you will be offended, guaranteed. Anyone else is free to read at your own risk!:
BTW: I can't believe you edited the story about Aragorn blowing Sauron's ***** out of the back of his ***** with two .45's. That was pure art!

Sigh. *Looks backwards over hunched shoulder* "Why do you trouble an already troubled mod?";) I think anyone who reads that can see why I edited it. That's R rated violence if I ever saw it.
You are obviously someone who is able to effectively argue her points without flaming, etc. Just keep doing it like that and everything will be fine. :)
Others here have mastered the fine art of roundabout flaming, where they post something that is ambiguous enough that I have no solid reason to edit/ reprimand.

Wayfarer

05-14-2003, 02:58 PM

I'd just like to say that, for the record, I haven't flamed BB yet.

Oh, no. If it ever comes to that, I'm going to start recruiting people from the VNBoards and reduce him to a pure carbon cinder.

That said...

Breathalizer has consistently demonstrated a poor understanding of Tolkien and Middle Earth, and an equally poor understading of the laws of storytelling and narrative. He has defended the capricious, arrogant, and completely unjustified changes to Tolkien's work. When confronted, he has repeatedly dodged behind unjustified assertions that the changes were 'nescessary for making a film' even though they clearly are not. He has continually behaved in an insulting, arrogant manner, and repeatedly made offensive comments about the large majority of people here who disagree with him.

I remember quite clearly one of the first conversations I had with Afro Elf. It's notable to say that, although I consider him a friend, I was at that time more harsh in argument with him than I have yet been with BB. In any case, I said (in edited form):

You are not one tenth the author tolkien was.

Any changes made to the lord of the rings...would invariably suck.

Attempting to 'improve' something as perfect as Middle Earth (is stupid)

His reply was notable:

I never compared myself to Tolkien.
Only a fool or someone imbued with hubris would do so.

Jackson and Breathalizer have.

Ruinel

05-14-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by azalea
I edited at least one other person's post, and my warning above was for everyone. I'm sorry I had to single you out, but your posts were the ones that kept crossing that fine line.
I'm working on it... I'm working on it.... :D

Originally posted by azalea
That's R rated violence if I ever saw it.
Ah... well... *thinks*... maybe... I suppose you're right... but it was still art. ;) :D

Originally posted by Wayfarer
....If it ever comes to that, I'm going to start recruiting people from the VNBoards and reduce him to a pure carbon cinder.

*jumps up and down, raising hand* Oh, me... me... me!!!! *observes glare from Azalea and Lizra* uh... never mind.... *sheepishly sits down and lowers eyes obediently* :rolleyes:

Wayfarer

05-14-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ã‘Ã³lendil
...you have fallen in with a purist You find them in hordes on the Middle-earth Vault, where Wayfarer and I were born...Changing the Lord of the Rings or coming up with things to change is naturally quite alien to our thought.

Coney

05-14-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Oh, no. If it ever comes to that, I'm going to start recruiting people from the VNBoards and reduce him to a pure carbon cinder.

Bring 'em on the 'moot.........the place could do with a good clean-out.

RÃan

05-14-2003, 04:25 PM

*reads Sween's opening post*
No, he wouldn't do that, would he?

*remembers Arwen's MOVIE line : "you'll face the same enemy, you poor little weak man running from your heritage who needs a buff she-elf to stiffen his spine, and you'll defeat him"*
OH....MY.....GOODNESS.....
*sigh*

Originally posted by Cirdan
If you believe that conventional wisdom was that the characters were too hokey, then I can only conclude that "huge Tolkien fan" could only mean you are morbidly obese.
Too funny, Cirdan! :D

Cirdan

05-14-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[BToo funny, Cirdan! :D [/B]

heh heh Does anyone remember how to put out a grease fire?):D

But seriously, it is perverse logic to say that PJ made the story popular, when it was Tolkien that made the movies poplular. Was anyone breathlessly awaiting PJ's next release before LotR? Are you on the edge of your seat for his remake of King Kong?:rolleyes: This will be the work of his life and he owes a great deal of thanks to JRRT and his loyal armies of purists for spreading the buzz and buying tickets, DVDs, etcetera. Otherwise his work would go largely unnoticed.

Gwaimir Windgem

05-14-2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*reads Sween's opening post*
No, he wouldn't do that, would he?

*remembers Arwen's MOVIE line : "you'll face the same enemy, you poor little weak man running from your heritage who needs a buff she-elf to stiffen his spine, and you'll defeat him"*
OH....MY.....GOODNESS.....
*sigh*

Hehehe. :D Most amusing. ;)

Cirdan

05-14-2003, 05:47 PM

heheh yah. I think maybe mAragorn (movie Aragorn) is running from something besides his heritage. "No, really, Galadriel. I want her to go to Valinor.":D

Ruinel

05-15-2003, 01:24 PM

Maybe mAragorn (movie Aragorn) is running from the fangirls. :D

LuthienTinuviel

05-15-2003, 04:58 PM

edited by azalea: after some thought I edited out this post on the basis that it was off topic, contained flaming, and was mainly based on a misunderstanding.

Thank you Azalea

Ruinel

05-15-2003, 05:24 PM

******

Elfhelm

05-15-2003, 06:00 PM

Well, no more sticking up for people on my part. If y'all get banned, then good riddance. What ever happened to the topic?

Coney

05-15-2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
......... best... flame... I've had the priviledge... of reading ... in a very... very long time. *wipes single tear from eye* That.... was beautiful. (Oh, *snif* now look at me... I'm all emotional.) Especially the 'hunt you down like cattle and gut you' part... nice, very nice. :D Could I offer you a violent smilie to go along with it? :D

o_O care for a little flame with that sarcasm? :rolleyes:

*would swap ten of Ruinel for one LT*

RÃan

05-15-2003, 08:24 PM

back OT-

The more I think about it, the more I think that's prob. what PJs going to do. And mSauron and mAragorn will fight a bit, and we'll all get scared that mARagorn might not make it :rolleyes:. And mSauron will throw mAragorn to the ground. And then PJ'll probably throw in a cheesy flashback of mArwen saying her little line, right when mAragorn is in the exact same position on the ground in front of Sauron as Isildur was in the prologue. And then Sauron will step on Narsil, but because he doesn't have the ring, it won't break, and Aragorn will rise up and snicker-snack! off with Sauron's head! (wonders if Sauron will have a new hand, since mIsildur cut off the whole hand, not just the finger, as the bIsildur (book Isildur) did). Then as a little aside, Frodo will pop the ring into Mt. Doom.

Well, whatever - I've rather given up on Aragorn. I'm just hoping they get the Eowyn/witchking scene right.

Ruinel

05-15-2003, 09:01 PM

***********

Coney

05-15-2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
:mad: I wasn't being sarcastic. A good flame is a good flame! Thanks for the swap! :mad:

You're welcome.

azalea

05-15-2003, 09:27 PM

Hey, crickhollow, remember the good old days when moderating this forum just consisted of padlocking the Legolas fangirl threads? *is nostalgic for naughty fangirls, who were so very easy to moderate*:) ;)

Ruinel

05-15-2003, 09:41 PM

I need to clarify something!!!!!!!!!!

When I said '...don't flame LT'. I meant, do not flame her!!!! See, not '...don't flame, LT.' There was no comma after flame. That was directed at someone else (BB) not to flame LT.

DO NOT BAN HER FROM THIS BOARD FOR THIS MISUNDERSTANDING!!!!

azalea

05-15-2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by azalea
Hey, crickhollow, remember the good old days when moderating this forum just consisted of padlocking the Legolas fangirl threads? *is nostalgic for naughty fangirls, who were so very easy to moderate*:) ;)

Oh, hahahahaha! *wipes tears from eyes* I needed that -- I was just down in GM. It put things in perspective for me -- I am refreshed! Plus, a couple of the posts there made me laugh out loud HARD.:D

(I know you're curious as to which ones:
One was a two year old post by HOBBIT in a dredged thread, in which ben made a thoughtful post about Afghanistan and compared it to a book series, and HOBBIT says "thanks a lot ben for ruining the end of that book, I was going to read it."
The other was one by someone in the Emergency thread that said, "do you notice how even though a tornado is coming, you still have to post on the moot?" Oh, that was priceless!
:D

Okay, I'm sorry, back on topic, now!!

Gwaimir Windgem

05-15-2003, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
back OT-

The more I think about it, the more I think that's prob. what PJs going to do. And mSauron and mAragorn will fight a bit, and we'll all get scared that mARagorn might not make it :rolleyes:. And mSauron will throw mAragorn to the ground. And then PJ'll probably throw in a cheesy flashback of mArwen saying her little line, right when mAragorn is in the exact same position on the ground in front of Sauron as Isildur was in the prologue. And then Sauron will step on Narsil, but because he doesn't have the ring, it won't break, and Aragorn will rise up and snicker-snack! off with Sauron's head! (wonders if Sauron will have a new hand, since mIsildur cut off the whole hand, not just the finger, as the bIsildur (book Isildur) did). Then as a little aside, Frodo will pop the ring into Mt. Doom.

I can see it now. :( :( :(

Lizra

05-15-2003, 11:24 PM

The part that was a bit cheesy for me was when Sauron swings his Mace (or whatever that thing was) and twenty warriors go flying to oblivion. Heck, he could've just spun around like a top for twenty minutes and eliminated the whole army! I think I'll be a little disappointed if I don't see him now! :D Snicker Snack!

RÃan

05-16-2003, 01:20 AM

Yeah, Sauron looks pretty good until he moves, then he looks like he has a wedgie!! Pretty wimpy mace swing, too!

His armor was pretty cool, altho you can't see it in the movie - in one of the commentaries, they show a close-up, and it's all covered in really cool etching. I think PJ and crew did a great job in a lot of the visual details. I really appreciate little things like how the buttons have insignias, even when they're covered by outer clothing so you can't see them!

Elfhelm

05-16-2003, 02:17 AM

I didn't really like his iron crown. I will admit that this complaint is a case of PJ not envisioning things the same way as me. It just seems too big.

Black Breathalizer

05-16-2003, 09:03 AM

I can envision Sauron on the battlefield in cool-looking "Loki-like" armor when suddenly...Frodo puts on the ring and proclaims himself the Master...there is a momentary flash of "the eye" and then we see the volcano erupt, the ground begins to shake, and the Nazgul fly off to Mount Doom with high-pitched shreaks.

Gandalf cries out above the noice, "this is the moment!"

The camera follows the flight of the frantic Nazgul over the Mountains of Shadow to volcano...

[We'll skip the cracks of doom part. Once the ring is destroyed we see...]

The black gates of Mordor crumble in a spectacular special effects show as the orcs flee in all directions. Like in FOTR's prologue, Sauron explodes, only this time, instead of a white blast energy force, it is a black vapor which covers the sky in a cloud of darkness. The cloud takes the shape of giant fists shaking in anger at the forces of the West and then desolves into nothingness...

Cirdan

05-16-2003, 09:17 AM

...with Jim Carey doing the VO of his timeless catch phrase, "Smokin'!", while all the orcs form a conga line.

Sween

05-16-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I can envision Sauron on the battlefield in cool-looking "Loki-like" armor when suddenly...Frodo puts on the ring and proclaims himself the Master...there is a momentary flash of "the eye" and then we see the volcano erupt, the ground begins to shake, and the Nazgul fly off to Mount Doom with high-pitched shreaks.

Gandalf cries out above the noice, "this is the moment!"

The camera follows the flight of the frantic Nazgul over the Mountains of Shadow to volcano...

[We'll skip the cracks of doom part. Once the ring is destroyed we see...]

The black gates of Mordor crumble in a spectacular special effects show as the orcs flee in all directions. Like in FOTR's prologue, Sauron explodes, only this time, instead of a white blast energy force, it is a black vapor which covers the sky in a cloud of darkness. The cloud takes the shape of giant fists shaking in anger at the forces of the West and then desolves into nothingness...

i cannot make my mind up are you trying to be funny? A black fist shaking it hand at them? May as well have him say 'and i would of got away with it too if it wasnt for those pesky hobbits'

Gwaimir Windgem

05-16-2003, 10:27 AM

Um...what makes you think Loki wore armour? He was the trickster, not a war-god.

Ruinel

05-16-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...I think PJ and crew did a great job in a lot of the visual details. ...
I agree with you on that point. PJ employed some of the best special effects people, costume designers, metal workers, and weapons people. Not to mention the amount of work that was put into training by the actors. My problem is with the script. It was too far removed from the original story, and there were far too many damaging changes. I fear for the changes that will be made in the final movie. :( And it upsets me that non-Tolkien readers rely on the movie story as THE Lord of the Rings story. And it is not, it is far from the original story and falls short from Tolkien's original works.

azalea

05-16-2003, 02:08 PM

For some reason that doesn't really bother me. I guess I'm just happy that I know the whole story. It's probably akin to my not being dissatisfied with the movies. I don't know what the root of that is, but what I DO hope is that the movie will lead to more people being interested in reading the books.
The only thing I "worry" about (if you could really call it worrying) is that people will see the movie, then attempt to read the books, but give up because of the slower pace. But that kind of thing happened before the movie anyway, just on a smaller scale (it wasn't a movie, but usually other fans doing the prompting), like that woman who had an online journal about her experience trying to force herself through Lotr, but after she got further into the book than she ever had before, who loved it of course.

Ruinel

05-16-2003, 02:29 PM

Well, I know this is OFF TOPIC... but... in response to what you are saying...
I didn't have trouble with FotR until I got to Tom Bombodil. He just irritated me, still does. All that jolly old Tom singing down the path... gah! Far too light and jolly for me. I still have trouble reading through it. *notices all the glares from the Tom B. fans* oooookay.... moving on....

I never had trouble with any of the other parts of the story (LotR) and I happened to just love the Sil and UT. It was only recently (past 6 months or so) that I started getting the HoME books and reading those as well. And I never felt that The Hobbit was his best work, either. FotR and The Sil were his best works... hands down, IMO (which aint worth much).

It bothers me when people refer to the story from the movie as if they know what they're talking about. It's like finger nails on a chalkboard to hear them claim to know Tolkien's work while spouting off lines from the movie perpetuating the error. Trust me, I am no expert on Tolkien. But I do know some.

azalea

05-16-2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel

It bothers me when people refer to the story from the movie as if they know what they're talking about. It's like finger nails on a chalkboard to hear them claim to know Tolkien's work while spouting off lines from the movie perpetuating the error. Trust me, I am no expert on Tolkien. But I do know some.

I agree with you there, especially when they come to this board.:rolleyes: It's quite annoying.

RÃan

05-16-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
....Gandalf cries out above the noice, "this is the moment!"...
No, Gandalf cries: "Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom."

then: "The realm of Sauron is ended! The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest."

Great lines! I hope they stay as written.

SamNotSoWise

05-16-2003, 04:00 PM

I don't have the books in front of me to check my accuracy, but I remember a scene, I believe in RotK (the book) where Pippin is with Denethor, and D says something to the effect of "Sauron will never come forth to do battle himself until the ultimate end to gloat over his completed victory." (That's my paraphrase.)

He said that to explain why he (Denethor) did not go out to battle himself, but rather sent all, including both his sons, to battle for him.

But I must say, PJ's changes haven't bothered me that much. I've read the books over 10 times (although it's been a while now), and I'm a huge Tolkien fan, but I've tried to appreciate the movie as a story on its own, apart from my knowledge of the books. I've rolled my eyes :rolleyes: at some of his changes, like the over-use of Arwen, the Aragorn-back-from-death bit, to name my two least favorite changes, but overall I've enjoyed the movies and I look forward to RotK. All three will be in my video library, I promise you!

mithrand1r

05-16-2003, 07:49 PM

You are correct, SamNotSoWise. This sentiment is expressed twice in LOTR Book 5. (I forget which chapters) Once by Denethor and once by someone else.

If my memory is good, In a one book volume of LOTR p763 is where one instance of this sentiment occurs and the other occurs later in the book.

Sincerely,
Anthony
:cool:

Gwaimir Windgem

05-16-2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
[B]Well, I know this is OFF TOPIC... but... in response to what you are saying...
I didn't have trouble with FotR until I got to Tom Bombodil. He just irritated me, still does. All that jolly old Tom singing down the path... gah! Far too light and jolly for me. I still have trouble reading through it. *notices all the glares from the Tom B. fans* oooookay.... moving on....

-GLARES VERY LOUDLY AT RUINEL- :mad: :mad: :mad:

...FotR and The Sil were his best works...

FotR is not one of Tolkien's works. He wrote the Lord of the Rings as one book (with six parts): the publishers divided it.

Lizra

05-16-2003, 09:59 PM

I feel the same way (about the movies) as you, SamNotSoWise! :) Looking forward to RoTK, and (will) enjoy watching the DVD's at home. I'm glad they were made, though they are not perfect.

Black Breathalizer

05-17-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
No, Gandalf cries: "Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom."

then: "The realm of Sauron is ended! The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest."

Great lines! I hope they stay as written. I didn't have the book in front of me when I posted what I wrote. I knew he said something incredbily moving.

I totally, one-hundred percent agree with RÃ*an. Those lines have just got to be in the film.

Ruinel

05-17-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by azalea
I agree with you there, especially when they come to this board.:rolleyes: It's quite annoying.
yes, well... :rolleyes: ... I wasn't going to say that, but now that you've said it, I feel I'm free to say: it annoys me to no end. ;) :D

Originally posted by 'Death Wish' Gwai
FotR is not one of Tolkien's works. He wrote the Lord of the Rings as one book (with six parts): the publishers divided it.
I had read that they were sent to the publishers at separate times. The copyrights are different years. Intentions or not, they can be purchased as separate entities. That is the meaning of my post. And, I still like that part of the story best.... :mad: :rolleyes: :) ;) :D

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I totally, one-hundred percent agree with RÃ*an. Those lines have just got to be in the film.
GAH! *stumbles from shock*
Black Breathalizer assented as one constrained, yet in his secret thought he received it gladly, for it chimed indeed with his desire... but his heart within was filled the more with envy and hate.... Yet such was the cunning of his mind and mouth, and the strength of his hidden will,...he had become closest to the secret counsels of the True Tolkien Fans; for flattery sweet as honey was ever on his tongue,.... And seeing the favour that he had of the Others all the 'Moot Members began to fawn upon him, save one alone, Ruinel The Faithful....
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!!

Sheeana

05-17-2003, 11:54 AM

Oh, [edited], Ruinel. :rolleyes:

Definately have to agree with ya there, Rian, those lines HAVE to be in there, or I'll *insert random act of violence in the general direction of Wellington.* ;)

edited by azalea due to a complaint.

Lizra

05-17-2003, 01:19 PM

Oh yes! Those lines are so wonderful! I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it! :)

RÃan

05-17-2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I didn't have the book in front of me when I posted what I wrote. I knew he said something incredbily moving.

I totally, one-hundred percent agree with RÃ*an. Those lines have just got to be in the film.

(mwahahaha! Behold the power of a 'bliss ninny' :D )

I think they have a fairly good chance of being in there. Many of the lines in the movie are straight out of the book, altho sometimes given to different people. Those lines have the same 'feel' as some of the lines from the book that were apparently deemed acceptable :rolleyes: and were put into the movie. PJ and co. often have a good feel for some of the dialogue, IMO, and many of the best lines in the book are in the movie. Those lines really are incredibly moving, as BB says.

Actually, I think the lines might be in, but perhaps mAragorn might say them (which would not be out of character, IMO) - what do you guys think?

(ps - funny story, Ru!)

Ruinel

05-17-2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
... altho sometimes given to different people. ...Those lines really are incredibly moving, as BB says. Actually, I think the lines might be in, but perhaps mAragorn might say them (which would not be out of character, IMO) - what do you guys think?
ACK! You know how I feel about Arwen getting Glorfindel's lines. Bad decision by PJ! *sulks* :p :D ;)
(ps - funny story, Ru!)
I'm so glad you get my humor. :D

Hasty Ent

05-17-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Actually, I think the lines might be in, but perhaps mAragorn might say them (which would not be out of character, IMO) - what do you guys think?

OH NO!!! Please tell me that idea came to you in a nightmare....;)

Viggo is bad enough -- never really liked him as Aragorn -- but to give him Gandalf's lines....:rolleyes:

I think it may be time to re-read the books and try to forget about these "movies.":mad:

Black Breathalizer

05-17-2003, 05:28 PM

I predict the lines will be in and will be said by Gandalf.

LuthienTinuviel

05-17-2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I predict the lines will be in and will be said by Gandalf.

....seeing as they are some of the greatest lines in that part, i have to agree with you.

Black Breathalizer

05-18-2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
....seeing as they are some of the greatest lines in that part, i have to agree with you. When LT and I agree on something, that means you can bank on it! :D

Ruinel

05-27-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
When LT and I agree on something, ...! :D
:eek: *shudders* I find this very disturbing. O.O I'm not sure if I will be able to sleep at night knowing this. :eek:

Cirdan

05-27-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
:eek: *shudders* I find this very disturbing. O.O I'm not sure if I will be able to sleep at night knowing this. :eek:

a sure sign of the apocalypse...

Ruinel

05-27-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Cirdan
a sure sign of the apocalypse...
duck and cover everybody... the bomb is on its way. :D

Sheeana

05-28-2003, 12:12 AM

Damn. Now if only I'd paid more attention in those classes! :mad: Now where's me duck? :confused:

Ararax

05-28-2003, 01:10 PM

now what i heard was after sauron knocks aragonr down jar jar binks pulls off his mask and everyone finds out that its actualy isduler, then he kills sauron who pulls of his own mask and is revealed to be jar jar BINKS!

Ruinel

05-28-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Ararax
now what i heard was after sauron knocks aragonr down jar jar binks pulls off his mask and everyone finds out that its actualy isduler, then he kills sauron who pulls of his own mask and is revealed to be jar jar BINKS!
O.O

............. ACK! Please... no!!!

Gwaimir Windgem

05-28-2003, 05:59 PM

Oh, come on. Surely you can see how it'd increase the tension and drama, and overall improve Tolkien's story? :p

Curufinwe

06-03-2003, 12:08 AM

I think it is very unfortunate that everyone's gut reaction is oh no! how could they do THAT?!
Film and high epic literature are about as different as entertainment media as you can get. As a reader of the epic think of your impression of Sauron through the first four books. He is imposing, he is ancient, he is timeless, he is omnipresent through minions and narration and diaglogue that is left out of the movie becuase of time - or simply because narration is an ineffective plot device in film. Sauron appearing in physical form at the black gate is certainly less greivous than the representations of Faramir and especially Treebeard in the TTT film. Sauron has had about 3 shots total in all of the films and Saruman has been the foil in the first two films outside the first fifteen minutes. As for Aragorn fighting Sauron that makes total sense when you consider his true epic hero beowulf style role in film and the written word where Gandalf represents, for lack of a better word, other purer motive and total lack of desire for almost anything - certainly not power. This change is minor compared to what PJ has done particularly with the aforementioned characters and with the elves (Arwen as bubbling teenager, third age lets jump back into things! I mean comon) and I really don't have a problem with it as a FILM device. You have to enter the theater with an understanding that you are watching PJs Middle-Earth which is pretty damn faithful to most of the professor's vision in most ways and I believe he has done a fairly good job of making an entertaining and still morally relevant film.

Gwaimir Windgem

06-03-2003, 01:03 AM

I disagree that it's "pretty damn faithful", but I do agree that it's still entertaining. :) A bit hollywood cliche, perhaps, but probably the best-made (if not best-interpreted) fantasy around.

Ruinel

06-03-2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Curufinwe
...Sauron appearing in physical form at the black gate is certainly less greivous than the representations of Faramir and especially Treebeard in the TTT film. .... As for Aragorn fighting Sauron that makes total sense when you consider his true epic hero beowulf style role in film ....
Those character changes were VERY upsetting! But only the tip of the iceburg.

I am VERY upset that PJ made Faramir a morally week, greedy, power hungry jerk. A completely different Faramir from the book. The book sets Faramir up as a noble man! With noble intentions! How is Eowyn going to fall in love with movie Faramir! She can't!!! She has high standards! She is a SHIELD MAIDEN of the ROHIRIM!! For crying out loud! How is this horrible bastarization of Faramir going to measure up to noble Aragorn? I don't understand how you can not see the ramification of these changes?

I pose this question to you: How much of Tolkien's works have you actually read? I will assume some, since your nic is FÃ«anor, that you at least know some. Although, I could be wrong.

(BTW, and FYI: Beowulf and LotR are 2 different stories and Beowulf was not written by Tolkien. ;) )

If you recall from The Sil (or from any of the HoME books, etc) Sauron is a Maia that was mentored by Morgoth/Melkor. There are very few times when Morgoth actually stood physically against his enemies, and only when he was sure to win with little risk to himself. He is deceptive, a coward, greedy, and always, ALWAYS behind the scenes putting other's lives on the field of battle not his, having others die and fight in his stead. He is the essense of EVIL.

It makes NO SENSE AT ALL for Sauron not to have learned from his master. It makes NO SENSE AT ALL that Sauron suddenly turns brave and noble and faces his enemy on the field of battle. What could be worse than for PJ to turn the pupil of EVIL into a genuinely brave and noble entity that fights hand to hand against Aragorn.

You talk about FILM DEVICES. Some of the most successful horror movies did not show you the full creature/enemy or did not show you all of what happened on the screen, only a quick glimpse of the victim's fear and then that is it. What could be more frightening than what you can picture in your own mind? Why is the audience in fear of Sauron? Because we have only the Lidless Eye to behold and not a body. We are not afraid of Saruman. Why? Because he looks like anyone else. What device has PJ up his sleeve? Will he give Sauron 7 heads that breathe fire? Will Sauron have no skin, just a fleshy ghoul (blood dripping from his body) that has no skull covering his throbbing brain, two sets of teeth like sharp razors ripping the flesh off of his victims as he sweeps through the throngs of his enemy to face Aragorn one on one? Puh-lease!

Curufinwe

06-03-2003, 12:34 PM

Well it does seem that you've have missed the point Runiel, I'm not getting the mud and slinging like everyone else. I have read every single piece of published material on middle earth and the Lord of the Rings at least two dozen times. I am well aware that beowolf is a norman legend dating back to the 10th century and that Tolkien was not the author. Tolkien was a professor of Middle English at my alma matter oxford where he studied beowulf in depth and it most clearly effected his work on Middle-Earth, I was making a parallel between Aragorn and the ancienct Beowulf style hero vs. Frodo the uncertain modern hero - men similar to the Tolkien fought with in WWI.
What you are missing is that the movies were not made with an assumption that the audience has read the written work. This is PJ's Middle-Earth I can't stress this enough it is NOT the film version of the literature. Of course if you've read the legends of the first age you understand Sauron's tutiledge etc. but the average audience member or even the average reader of the hobbit and the Lord of the Rings has no idea because it has not been represented and does not need to be. Sauron does not appear throughout as some rampaging warlord throughout he's barely mentioned or represented because we have no narration or inner monologue to express the fear of him that our heros feel in the text. Sauron is barely directly represented at all in the literature this is unbearablie in film, I would like for you to cite one example of a horror film in which the main evil was not directly represented and confronted in the climax. More importantly this is not horror.
Also if you look back Sauron has put himself at person risk many times see Finrod, Huan, Eregion, meeting with Fingolfin, Ar-Pharazon, and the Last Alliance he is much more hands on that Melkor. Ideally he shouldnt be there, realistically the movie needs a climax.
P.S. What is brave and noble about a Maia taking on a mortal man?

Gwaimir Windgem

06-03-2003, 12:40 PM

With Ar-Pharazon, he took the least brave way out. His hordes had fled, and rather than face him, and fight him in battle, he allowed himself to be taken captive, and corrupted his courts from within (not that they weren't already partly corrupted ;)).

Eregion, he was disguised in a form that the Elves did not recognise; even those who did not trust him I don't believe even thought of fighting him. As for Finrod and Huan, those were the days in which he was naught but a (mighty) servant of Morgoth, bound to His will.

Also, I believe Tolkien stated in LOTR that Sauron would not come forth from his stronghold, and watch in triumph until the FINAL VICTORY. Considering the vast expanses of Middle-earth that were not at all under His dominion, I would certainly not think that a battle at the entrance to His land was the final victory.

Curufinwe

06-03-2003, 12:43 PM

Oh and I forgot about Faramir, I agree with you that the change in his character in TTT film was drastic and unnecessary. However I believe PJ needed to create drama of some kind having committed to pushing Cirith Ungol to the Third Film. I'm sure he did this to extend Frodo and Sam's screentime in the film as there are only three chapters in the ROTK dealing with their journey in Mordor. Faramir does in the end, change his mind, in a very unconvincing scene, but once we see how he has resists (mad, powerhungry) Denethor and his actions in defense of Gondor his character can be salvaged. And Treebeard there simply wasn't enough time to get a sense of his true character though I wasn't very happy with him either. But neither of these changes were thematic in nature just contextual.

Curufinwe

06-03-2003, 12:54 PM

Alright apparently I made a mistake by suggesting the Sauron was more hands on for the purposes of this discussion, I made that comment with tongue squarely in cheek. Sauron the character in the epic Lord of the Rings, would not have come forth at that time to battle individually - although he was clearly not just a flaming eye if you believe that i suggest you re-read the literature this time carefully. I was merely pointing out a facet of his character different from Melkor and it really doesnt even have an impact on the film - he does come forth and battle on Mt. Doom and that is shown in the prolouge of sorts. He has then been mentioned throughout as the evil ringleader if he doesn't come forth the audience will be left unsatisfied - he has to show himself and be dealt with, these are movies people - not theater nor literature the white hat takes on the black hat even if he has an assist from a hobbit he wins.

Ruinel

06-03-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Curufinwe
1)Alright apparently I made a mistake by suggesting the Sauron was more hands on for the purposes of this discussion, I made that comment with tongue squarely in cheek. Sauron the character in the epic Lord of the Rings, would not have come forth at that time to battle individually -....
2) I was merely pointing out a facet of his character different from Melkor and it really doesnt even have an impact on the film - he does come forth and battle on Mt. Doom and that is shown in the prolouge of sorts.
3) He has then been mentioned throughout as the evil ringleader if he doesn't come forth the audience will be left unsatisfied - he has to show himself and be dealt with, these are movies people - not theater nor literature the white hat takes on the black hat even if he has an assist from a hobbit he wins.
1) Thank you. :)
2) In that situation, where Sauron fights both Gil-galad and Elendil, it was completely different. Sauron was surrounded. He had sat back in safety sending his troops to battle with the armies of the Elves, NÃºmenÃ³reans, and Durin's Dwarves. This had gone on for 7 years. When finally the last siege was so great that it forced Sauron to come forth and battle in person with Gil-galad and Elendil, who were of course killed by him. The battle before Mordor is not expected to be the last battle. Sauron still seeks The One Ring, and he is confident that it will find it's way to him.

3) I will be unsatified if he comes forth. So, will others. Your last statement referring to movie people confirms what I have been saying all along. PJ has no intentions to hold true to Tolkien. He will only do what he thinks will draw the masses in. He will use the methods of Hollywood that have proven successful. He will turn this beautiful tale of Tolkien's into a Hollywood action film. How sad.

Black Breathalizer

06-03-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted in High Purish by Ruinel
PJ has no intentions to hold true to Tolkien. He will only do what he thinks will draw the masses in. He will use the methods of Hollywood that have proven successful. He will turn this beautiful tale of Tolkien's into a Hollywood action film. How sad. Translated from High Purish to CinemaSavvy by Black Breathalizer
PJ has to be careful in translating Tolkien's story to film. He will need to carefully consider what will work for modern audiences around the world and use expert screenwriting techniques that have proven successful over the years. If he does, he will turn Tolkien's beautiful tale into a critically and commerically successful film that will be enjoyed by Tolkienite and non-Tolkienite alike. How great is that?

Ruinel

06-03-2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted in Unintelligible Babble by Black Breathalizer
PJ has to be careful in translating Tolkien's story to film. He will need to carefully consider what will work for modern audiences around the world and use expert screenwriting techniques that have proven successful over the years. If he does, he will turn Tolkien's beautiful tale into a critically and commerically successful film that will be enjoyed by Tolkienite and non-Tolkienite alike. How great is that?
Painstakingly translated from Unintelligible Babble by Ruinel
PJ is my lord and master. He wills me to speak to you as his devoted minion. I stand before all as his humble servant to tell you that he has no freakin' idea what he is doing. As a matter of fact, PJ (nor me, his obedient thrall) have read the books much. Sure, we skimmed it, but really, lets face it, we didn't understand the words. My Lord PJ shall conquer the dimly lit minds of the vaguely moronic masses with his own tale that has nothing to do with the actual story as told by Tolkien. ;) :D

Black Breathalizer

06-03-2003, 09:05 PM

:D

I can't believe I'm actually saying this to a sworn arch-enemy, but for a nose-always-in-the-books, whiney, lowlife, Purist, you ain't half bad. ;)

Cirdan

06-03-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
:D

I can't believe I'm actually saying this to a sworn arch-enemy, but for a nose-always-in-the-books, whiney, lowlife, Purist, you ain't half bad. ;)

Translation: I can't believe Ruinel is slammin' me around like a broken bumper car.

Sheeana

06-03-2003, 11:07 PM

I have a pimple on my butt.

Gwaimir Windgem

06-03-2003, 11:10 PM

Thanks for sharing that, BoP. Gave me a good laugh. :D

Sheeana

06-03-2003, 11:26 PM

I named it Peter Jackson, and now I'm going to squeeze it.

(You're very welcome GW.)

Ruinel

06-03-2003, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
:D

I can't believe I'm actually saying this to a sworn arch-enemy, but for a nose-always-in-the-books, whiney, lowlife, Purist, you ain't half bad. ;)
Oh, damn.. I laughed for a good solid 3 minutes over this. Now, finally, my laughter has died down to the point where I can actually type. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Cirdan

06-03-2003, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Sheeana
I have a pimple on my butt.

Now that's a cheesy ending.

Curufinwe

06-04-2003, 12:47 AM

For once in all of the discussion I want someone to explain to me in what sense PJ has not represented the themes present in the Lord of the Rings. I don't want characters and I don't want what he left out. I want someone to explain to me in a rational coherent way how PJ has not "been true" to Tokien. Tolkien calls upon universal moral and christian themes PJ does this in spades. Tell me how please.

Gwaimir Windgem

06-04-2003, 02:29 AM

Well, I'm just going to say that The Lord of the Rings is a STORY. It is NOT a collection of themes. A story rooted deeply in Christian and Catholic worldview (I forget, which of the Apostles was a short, bearded, clown?), and influenced by certain aspects of old Pagan (especially Norse) belief. But the fact that it is influenced by something does not change the fact that it is, pure and simple, a STORY.

Curufinwe

06-04-2003, 12:11 PM

Quite correct there are no thematic differences these are the essense of the authors vision. The film is from a perspective of plot in well over 90% agreement with in its details and settings with the literature. Even if certain characters and moviations are slightly altered how many of the characters actions are truly changed? Think of Aragorn for example. Peter Jackson made a movie that imparts Tolkiens values and maintains the vast hunk of plot without being mired down and constricted as an artist and he has shown the vision of Middle-Earth to a wider audience than it ever would have reached. Have you seen Ralph Bashki's attrocity of a film? His characters and dialogue and plot are almost exaclty the same as the literature and the movie is unwatchable.

Gwaimir Windgem

06-04-2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Curufinwe
1) The film is from a perspective of plot in well over 90% agreement with in its details and settings with the literature. 2) Even if certain characters and moviations are slightly altered
3)His characters and dialogue and plot are almost exaclty the same as the literature and the movie is unwatchable.

1) FOTR, maybe 90%...TTT, no way.
2) Do me a favour. Watch the scenes with Faramir, and come back and tell me the characters are SLIGHTLY altered.
3) That's a matter of opinion.

Curufinwe

06-04-2003, 01:46 PM

Faramir is more signifigantly altered for dramatic purpose I didnt like it I understood it you know his character has turned a corner when we see his defense of Ossgiliath and the causeway forts and his respect for Gandalf and defiance of his father I think he'll be okay. In any case you don't understand plot if you're talking about characterization these are two seperate aspects of a work get it straight. Tell me one setting or any single character that was in FOTR that was not in the book. Tell me how the plot and journey developed differently. In the TTT we had two scenes the journey to Osgiliath and the warg battle. I hated the warg battle but it was less than 10 minutes. The osgiliath scene was done for dramatic purpose but I don't like it either its just over 10 minutes. Thats 20 minutes of film in 6 hours of screentime 7 if you count the EE which we must if we're judging his artistic interpretation since he obviously would have included those scenes if he could. I dont know 90 percent seems fairly conservative maybe you should do the math?

Indril Anarion

06-04-2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Ugh, just read that at TORN. Here's the link: http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1052497889
I was groaning aloud when I read this, and my Mum wanted to know what was wrong. :rolleyes:
I didn't realise that when Arwen said to Aragorn in the FOTR that 'you will face the same evil, and you will defeat it', that she meant Sauron, I thought she meant the Ring. I hope this isn't true...but I'm doubtful.
And Saruman getting 'spiked'? Well there's no scouring, so I still think this will be the case. NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!

This has to be wrong! The Scouring of the Shire has to happen, it's one of the key events in the book! Not to mention one of my favorite ones! This has to be wrong!!!!!!!

:eek: :eek: :mad: :mad: :( :( :(
If PJ removes it from the ending....he's going to get very nasty letters from me!!!!!!!

Gwaimir Windgem

06-04-2003, 04:06 PM

The absence of the Scouring is a pretty well established fact.

Curufinwe

06-04-2003, 05:28 PM

True about the scouring he left that out just like crickhollow to bree but my point is he didnt really add much he just took what he thought was most important

Elvengirl

06-04-2003, 07:34 PM

He just added a whole scene at Osgiliath, the fight scene on the way to Helm's Deep/ Aragorns cliff scene, numerous scenes with Arwen and Elrond........to name a few

Indril Anarion

06-05-2003, 02:33 PM

*Begins to cry at the news of the absence of the Scouring*

Gerbil

06-06-2003, 10:04 AM

Wow, I haven't posted in ages.
But a quick trawl through these threads and nothing's really changed :/

Bonjour peeps :)

Ruinel

06-08-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Curufinwe
True about the scouring he left that out just like crickhollow to bree but my point is he didnt really add much he just took what he thought was most important
But the Scouring is important. There is a change in the Hobbits who left the Shire and Crickhollow. You see their bravery and leadership in the Scouring of the Shire. It is important. Unless you take the focus away from the Hobbits and make their contributions minor to the plot.

Aewionen

06-17-2003, 09:22 PM

I heard that 2!! I was soooo mad! I also read that Grima, after killing saruman, gets shot by Legolas. If that happens, Legolas fan-girls are going to go crazy for no reason because the hobbits kill wormtongue in the book.

hectorberlioz

06-20-2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Sween
Right just read a report and there seems to be a lot of this going around that saurons going to be at the black gates! this is a bit silly!

First off he doesnt need to be there! second why would he be there it totoally contradicts saurons method of managment!

what are your thoughts?

sauron needs to be in his fortress, he has plenty of servants( the dark messenger. ithink thats his name.) for one.
-hectorberlioz:cool: :cool:

Gwaimir Windgem

06-20-2003, 09:09 PM

Mae govannen, hectorberlioz, and welcome to the Entmoot! I hope you have a good time here. :)

By the dark messenger, might you mean the Mouth of Sauron, or the Witch-king?

Ragnarok

06-22-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Are you saying that movie-goers are too dumb to grasp a "behind the stage" bad-guy? :p

Again: Are movie-goers too dumb for a bad-guy they don't see?

Yes and yes. :D :p

Lefty Scaevola

06-22-2003, 12:44 PM

"second why would he be there it totoally contradicts saurons method of managment!"

Well, Sauron did command armies in person for much of his career.

Ruinel

06-22-2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
"second why would he be there it totoally contradicts saurons method of managment!"

Well, Sauron did command armies in person for much of his career.
:confused: Are we discussing JRRT's Sauron? Or PJ's Sauron? ;) Hmmmm... only time I can recall Sauron actually facing his enemy was in the Sil, and he only did so when hard pressed, his back was against the wall and he had no other choice. Having Sauron come out to face Aragorn would most definitely contradict JRRT's Sauron.

But then again, I think PJ is trying to rewrite the classic anyway and put his mark (or make an attempt at such) on the tale. He doesn't have what it takes to make his own story, so he is mucking up JRRT's tale and putting his own stamp on it.

Ragnarok: you think that movie goers are too dumb to grasp JRRT's Sauron? That is sad. Perhaps, then, the story should never have been attempted for the screen.

However, I think you are wrong. History is full of truely evil dictators that sent soldiers to die for them in battle, never lifting a physical finger themselves to fight their enemy.

Who do you think the audience would hate more? An enemy that stands and fights along side his army, bravely risking his own life in the frey? Or a coward that sends his army to die for him as he sits comfortably and watches from a safe distance?

Aewionen: I agree, there's no reason to change the story and take the glory from the Hobbits and give it to Legolas. Legolas is not the hero of the book! But then again I believe PJ will do it (or has done it) to appease the 11 year old girls who are love struck with Orlando Bloom. Pretty sick if you ask me. :mad:

Lefty Scaevola

06-22-2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Ruinel
[Bonly time I can recall Sauron actually facing his enemy was in the Sil, [/B]
Sauron (a/k/a Gorthanaur) commanded the army that took Minas Tirith (The first age Noldorin one) from Oredreth, with his personal involvement and particularly his sorcery, necessary to drive out the Nolder under Oredreth. He likely had other front commands in the war of the jewels. He personally led him main army into Eriador in the War of Elves and Sauron and commanded the attack on Hollin and the seige and storming of Ost en Edhil. In that war he was twice nearly cut off and captured by the Numemoreans landing in his rear. I do not believe that is is clear wheather or not he was personally present at the battle of Dagorland in the war of the last Alliance, but it is likely so. At the end of the siege of Barad Dur, he pesonally led the sortie out of the fortrees and engage hi duels with Gil Galad and Elendil. He was a bloody hands on commander, when he had hands.