Gollum Debate

[Elf Girl]

This is carried over from the "Who are you in ME?" thread, where PsychoKitty seemed to think that Gollum lead a happy, contented life, and also that he was right to take the Ring from Déagol. This is where we can debate that! *maniacal laughter* Excuse me. I love debate.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
He WAS right to take the ring! Just think if he had given it to the village elder or something then it most likely would have caused much worse trouble because it would have wound up in the hands of someone powerful enough to make a mess of things.
But the Ring was not his. Déagol found it, it was for Déagol to decide what to do with it. All the laws of honesty support me.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
You would have had murder after murder and tribes battling against tribes and eventually mass war and certainly by then evil forces would have been focusing on the ring because it would have become obvious the one ring had been found. it would make a mess of things.
I doubt it. Déagol was a primitive little Stoor, do you think he would even have the strength to turn it in to anyone else? He would almost certainly have kept it for himself, eventually becoming like Gollum, though probably not quite as twisted.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
so how can you fault him for taking this burdon himself and hiding it away where it couldnt cause all this mess. he did everyone a favor! thats why hes a hero.
He might be if he had 'hidden it away' for good purposes. But we know the Ring had corrupted him at that point. He desired only to possess it and keep it safe. ('Safe' meaning belonging to him.)

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
and who cares about Déagol. I would kill him too. along with nasty elves.....<evil smilie>
So Gollum was right to murder his best friend?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
This is carried over from the "Who are you in ME?" thread, where PsychoKitty seemed to think that Gollum lead a happy, contented life, and also that he was right to take the Ring from Déagol. This is where we can debate that! *maniacal laughter* Excuse me. I love debate.


But the Ring was not his. Déagol found it, it was for Déagol to decide what to do with it. All the laws of honesty support me.


I doubt it. Déagol was a primitive little Stoor, do you think he would even have the strength to turn it in to anyone else? He would almost certainly have kept it for himself, eventually becoming like Gollum, though probably not quite as twisted.


He might be if he had 'hidden it away' for good purposes. But we know the Ring had corrupted him at that point. He desired only to possess it and keep it safe. ('Safe' meaning belonging to him.)


So Gollum was right to murder his best friend? Elf Girl, are you sure it's the place for this thread?

I agree with Elf Girl mostly. Gollum was wrong - he killed his best friend and was exiled his tribe, becuase of a the one ring - but I cna't exactly blame him, the power of the ring was too strong for him.

[Psycho Kitty]

ok elf bring it....

the point is i like gollum because he is the purest of all the characters in my opinion. and he is that way because of the ring. he was a petty little nothing at first and the ring helped him lose himself and become something so ideal to me. he no longer cared about ALL the stupid things normal people care about. and that makes him so much better then all those stupid pathetic conformists. they are better dead if you ask me. he did his friend a favor. and the ring to me is like the ultimate drug. it totally takes over your world. it twists you yes. warps the way you think yes. but it also takes away all the normal sh*t that you would have to deal with normally and that seems like perfection to me. ill take being controlled by an evil object for that. its a price i am willing to pay. now stop trying to talk me out of my drug cause i like it.

[Dreran the Green]

Gollum is not some kind of rebel against conformity because he got mind-warped by a ring. He's just another poor lost soul who fell victim to Sauron's obsession with shiny little gold things.
I don't think you can argue about Gollum being the purest character. I think there has to be something impure to begin with in order for the Ring to corrupt you entirely. I mean, if Sam had found the ring instead of Deagol, I don't think Frodo would have strangled his best friend for it. Do you?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
the point is i like gollum because he is the purest of all the characters in my opinion. and he is that way because of the ring. he was a petty little nothing at first and the ring helped him lose himself and become something so ideal to me. he no longer cared about ALL the stupid things normal people care about. and that makes him so much better then all those stupid pathetic conformists. they are better dead if you ask me. he did his friend a favor. and the ring to me is like the ultimate drug. it totally takes over your world. it twists you yes. warps the way you think yes. but it also takes away all the normal sh*t that you would have to deal with normally and that seems like perfection to me. ill take being controlled by an evil object for that. its a price i am willing to pay. now stop trying to talk me out of my drug cause i like it.
:eek: :eek: :eek: That scares me. If you like being corrupted I can't argue with you. But remember the Ring betrays everyone in the end. Also, the Stoors had an idyllic, rural life. (In my opinion.) Unconcerned with 'normal sh*t that you would have to deal with normally' like battles and the Dark Lord. All that changed for Sméagol when he first put on the Ring.

He had a love/hate relationship with the Ring:

Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him; and now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and was always going back to look at it. And still sometimes he put it on, when he could not bear to be parted from it any longer, or when he was very, very, hungry, and tired of fish.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Gollum is not some kind of rebel against conformity because he got mind-warped by a ring. He's just another poor lost soul who fell victim to Sauron's obsession with shiny little gold things.
I don't think you can argue about Gollum being the purest character. I think there has to be something impure to begin with in order for the Ring to corrupt you entirely. I mean, if Sam had found the ring instead of Deagol, I don't think Frodo would have strangled his best friend for it. Do you?

ya i do think he is the purest character. to me purity is being as close to pure animal as possible. not all mixed up by things like compassion and loyalty and devotion and everything. and troubled with typical every day worries. the ring took all that stuff away from smeagol and whats left is gollum who isnt hindered by that shnit. he is free to be himself in the purest most basic form. all he has is his isolation and his adiction to the ring. beautiful and basic.

[Dreran the Green]

If you think purity is being as close to pure animal as possible, then you have to admit that animals don't get addicted to things.

....except perhaps the poor animals used in laboratory testing. I HATE WHOEVER DECIDED TO DO THAT TO ANIMALS.

But ANYWAY, animals can show things like loyalty and compassion, too. Look at dogs. I know for a fact that if my dog saw someone trying to hurt me she'd be at their throat. I know because its happened before.

[Psycho Kitty]

ya elf but dont you think if he HADNT taken the ring things could have been much worse for middle earth? what better situation could there have been other then for him to take it and basically keep it from corrupting anyone for all those years? if it had gotten back to someone powerful you know it woulda made a mess. people would have died. lots of em. and in the end it works out cause it goes from him to a hobbit to another hobbit. if it had gone to anyone else along the way it probably would never have been destroyed. so you can thank gollum now!!!

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
But ANYWAY, animals can show things like loyalty and compassion, too. Look at dogs. I know for a fact that if my dog saw someone trying to hurt me she'd be at their throat. I know because its happened before.

think wild dogs. not ones warped by humans trying to make a different breed. and think real basic instincts. thats basically what im sayin. gollum isnt cluttered by stuff that life forces you and me to deal with.

[Dreran the Green]

Well, that does make sense to me. But I still can't agree that Gollum was the purest character there was.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Moving to the Lord of the Rings book forum.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
and think real basic instincts. thats basically what im sayin. gollum isnt cluttered by stuff that life forces you and me to deal with.

Ummmm...... you really can't compare things we go through in these days because #1 Middle Earth isn't real its fantasy and #2 The setting of LotR takes place in lets say something more like the Dark Ages or Medieval (sp) times and not in the year 2003. :rolleyes:

[Indril Anarion]

Both of you make interesting points...Psycho Kitty is right that if it wasn't for Gollum, it may have fallen into more powerful hands and made a huge mess out of everything...I guess it's just fate...But I agree with Dreran the Green that Gollum is not the purest character. I would say that Frodo was the purest one, but that's my opinion...:D

[Wayfarer]

ya i do think he is the purest character. to me purity is being as close to pure animal as possible. You want to give me your address? I have some animal instincts for Blood and Pain that I'd like to satisfy. While I'm at it, I had promised Dr. Lector we'd have dinner sometime, so you can foot that bill as well.

Look, I'm normally a nice guy. I make it a point to be as nice as possible. But PshycoKitty is just being... well, dumb. And I feel ok with letting her see the gollumish side of my nature.

By the By... You do realize that gollum, alone and happy in his cave, would have eaten you, right?

[Sheeana]

Let's not be overly delusional, here. We all know exactly what kind of nice guy you are. :p Btw: thanks for making me break my resolve not to touch this thread with a 10ft barge pole...

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
ya elf but dont you think if he HADNT taken the ring things could have been much worse for middle earth? what better situation could there have been other then for him to take it and basically keep it from corrupting anyone for all those years? if it had gotten back to someone powerful you know it woulda made a mess. people would have died. lots of em. and in the end it works out cause it goes from him to a hobbit to another hobbit. if it had gone to anyone else along the way it probably would never have been destroyed. so you can thank gollum now!!!
What you say is true, however I think we can agree that he did not take it thinking, "Hmm, this looks very powerful, I think I'll take it and hide it in a mountain for five hundred years so it can't corrupt anyone." Of course not. He did not know the ring was evil. He knew it was shiny and gold and precioussss... Just because his action was good for Middle-Earth in the long run, does not justify stealing and murder.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You want to give me your address? I have some animal instincts for Blood and Pain that I'd like to satisfy. While I'm at it, I had promised Dr. Lector we'd have dinner sometime, so you can foot that bill as well.

Look, I'm normally a nice guy. I make it a point to be as nice as possible. But PshycoKitty is just being... well, dumb. And I feel ok with letting her see the gollumish side of my nature.

By the By... You do realize that gollum, alone and happy in his cave, would have eaten you, right?

oh back away kinky boy. you wanna play rough with me you betta be ready to donate blood yurself. ive got sharp teeth and when my jaw locks i dont let go k? and when i say eat me take it as an insult.

your gollumish side leaves much to be desired. you arent worthy. and i doubt youre ever a nice guy but thats probably the only cool thing aboutcha.

ya he woulda tried. and i admire him for that. if you can catch me you can eat me <evil grin>

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
What you say is true, however I think we can agree that he did not take it thinking, "Hmm, this looks very powerful, I think I'll take it and hide it in a mountain for five hundred years so it can't corrupt anyone." Of course not. He did not know the ring was evil. He knew it was shiny and gold and precioussss... Just because his action was good for Middle-Earth in the long run, does not justify stealing and murder.

hey i never said he was a noble hero. i hate the idea of purposeful heroism. so [edit] righteous. it makes me wanna puke. the true hero is the antihero. who ends up doing the best possible thing by just following his basic instincts. i really think thats what tolkien was trying to say by having gollum play the roll he did. that its not just about big obvious heros. that its about little people who dont really matter and who dont care about much. and its about creatures who have escaped the normal world and only follow their instincts now for better of for worse. i dont think its a coincidence that alll the powerful people in the books DONT have anything to do with destroying the ring.

as for justifying murder well spare me your morality. and remember i am talking about GOLLUM here. NOT smeagol. if you want to condem smeagol with your petty morals go ahead. but gollum is a different creature. and thats the one i admire.

[Snowdog]

Ah, the ol Slinker & Stinker debate. Smeagol may have been a troubled youth, but as far as we know the first evil deed if his was lilling Deagol for the Ring, hence is it not the Ring that drove his will to evil in the first place, forever to his death consuming his every breath?

[Dreran the Green]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
hey i never said he was a noble hero. i hate the idea of purposeful heroism. so [edit] righteous. it makes me wanna puke. the true hero is the antihero. who ends up doing the best possible thing by just following his basic instincts. i really think thats what tolkien was trying to say by having gollum play the roll he did. that its not just about big obvious heros. that its about little people who dont really matter and who dont care about much. and its about creatures who have escaped the normal world and only follow their instincts now for better of for worse. i dont think its a coincidence that alll the powerful people in the books DONT have anything to do with destroying the ring.

as for justifying murder well spare me your morality. and remember i am talking about GOLLUM here. NOT smeagol. if you want to condem smeagol with your petty morals go ahead. but gollum is a different creature. and thats the one i admire.

Why do you hate the idea of the noble hero? I thought it was a good thing to be heroic enough to give your life fighting for a cause you beleive in. I mean, I understand your point about the antihero but that doesn't mean you should condemn righteousness. I would like to point out that if there were no heroes, there would be no antiheroes.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Why do you hate the idea of the noble hero? I thought it was a good thing to be heroic enough to give your life fighting for a cause you beleive in. I mean, I understand your point about the antihero but that doesn't mean you should condemn righteousness. I would like to point out that if there were no heroes, there would be no antiheroes.

The Hero archetype is boring to me. the stereotype hero is the ideal of the conformist who wants to be the hero but cant. its a myth to make us feel better. but it makes me want to gag. pure heros dont exist except in fantasy or religions. i like the antihero not just because he is the opposite of the hero but because he strives to be the outsider. he strives to be unlike anyone. and antiheros are real.

[Dreran the Green]

Yes, but the Lord of the Rings was a FANTASY. The stuff in it doesn't have to be realistic, (even though I am a big enough fan that I beleive in it all) it's not s'posed to be realistic. That's why we like fantasies so much. They allow for an escape from all the non magical boring stuff that happens to us (AKA Algebra)

[Dreran the Green]

But I still believe that heroes exist outside of books and religion:D

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
as for justifying murder well spare me your morality. and remember i am talking about GOLLUM here. NOT smeagol. if you want to condem smeagol with your petty morals go ahead. but gollum is a different creature. and thats the one i admire.
Okay! Gollum!

Are you saying you would enjoy sitting on a rock for 500 years, feeling like butter scraped over hundreds of miles of bread, unable to die and end your misery, fanatically obbsesive about a single object, and haunted by the murder of a dear friend?

...If that is what you are saying, then I don't think I can help you. Maybe a psychiatrist can tho. ;)

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
ya i do think he is the purest character. to me purity is being as close to pure animal as possible.


Well I guess no one can really debate with you about Gollum being a pure character because your definition of "pure" is definitely different to what alot of people interpret it as. :(

[Dreran the Green]

I can debate about anything. Just give me some Marshmallow fluff and several hours to ramble:D

[Elfhelm]

There is a difference between an antagonist and an anti-hero, as far as the point of a character being included in a story, I mean. I'm inclined to call Gollum an antagonist. Actually, I'll go a step further to call the One Ring an antagonist and Gollum a mere puppet.

Let me touch on conformity, which I despise, also. Is it not true, PK, that becoming a mental slave is even worse than conformity? That, in fact, Smeagol practically ceased to exist in his mindless obedience to the powers-that-be?

In time I hope you will come to realize that the alternative to conformity isn't nihilism, it is self-creativeness. I know you'll argue that today, but think about it for a while. Nihilism is just a different flavor of conformity. The true non-conformist creates himself daily.

If Smeagol created himself anew outside of social convention and learned to be self-reliant, he would have been able to resist the One Ring, because the One Ring offers an easy path, obedience. Instead, Smeagol let the Ring repress his true self. It was never a complete repression, though, and we do hold on to hope for so long through the books. But we all know where it ends. As a being responsible for his actions, whether he accepts it or not, his karma comes back on him and he is doomed.

[Dreran the Green]

*drops jaw and stares in awe*

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
There is a difference between an antagonist and an anti-hero, as far as the point of a character being included in a story, I mean. I'm inclined to call Gollum an antagonist. Actually, I'll go a step further to call the One Ring an antagonist and Gollum a mere puppet.

Let me touch on conformity, which I despise, also. Is it not true, PK, that becoming a mental slave is even worse than conformity? That, in fact, Smeagol practically ceased to exist in his mindless obedience to the powers-that-be?

In time I hope you will come to realize that the alternative to conformity isn't nihilism, it is self-creativeness. I know you'll argue that today, but think about it for a while. Nihilism is just a different flavor of conformity. The true non-conformist creates himself daily.

If Smeagol created himself anew outside of social convention and learned to be self-reliant, he would have been able to resist the One Ring, because the One Ring offers an easy path, obedience. Instead, Smeagol let the Ring repress his true self. It was never a complete repression, though, and we do hold on to hope for so long through the books. But we all know where it ends. As a being responsible for his actions, whether he accepts it or not, his karma comes back on him and he is doomed.

*Raises fist in the air at Psycho Kitty* Yea, what he said! :D

Btw, nice post Elfhem, well said. :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Firstly, concerning animals, I would like to point out that while I don't study animals very much, I do know enough to know that a number of species mate for life. What is this, if not loyalty or devotion?

Secondly:

he strives to be unlike anyone.

Gollum does not strive to be unlike anyone. He who is cast out of society for wrongs commited is greatly different from he who willingly leaves it.

Thirdly:

i really think thats what tolkien was trying to say by having gollum play the roll he did

If you truly think that, then frankly, you do not know much of Tolkien. Gollum was hardly the hero from his eyes, as can be easily seen from the Letters. As to "what Tolkien was trying to say", I think it was more like that anyone, even the truly pathetic, twisted creature known as Gollum, may have a role to play, as Gandalf said. Or else that even Gollum may be used by the Will of God (remember, Tolkien was a devout Christian) or Fate, to those who despise the idea of anything remotely Christian in LOTR. ;) But really, those are almost the same thing.

Regarding Conformity:

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn either way. I think it is better to be oneself, regardless of whether that would be "conformist" or "non-conformist". But really, living solely by primal instinct seems to me to be not individualism, but giving up one's humanity.

And lastly, allow me to add my two cents to what Wayfarer said. :)

I myself am fascinated with the sadists of History. Perhaps I could use you and be a copy-cat? [edited]

What am I getting at? That those who exercise no form of restraint, and just live by primal instinct and urge can be absolute monsters. This is your idea of "pure"?

Sorry, GW, but I had to edit out the icky stuff. -- azalea

[durin's bane]

I think it was wrong of Gollum to steal the Ring. He murdered and stole, which I think is horrible. Besides, I disagree with what Psycho Kitty said in that other thread about with the Ring causing so war if it stayed with Deagol, because he's just a hobbit, who mostly keep to themselves. They don't get involved with wars and history (save for a few) so it wouldn't really matter if he kept it or not.

[Elfhelm]

For the record, what Gwaimir said is far more Tolkienesque of an answer than mine.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Tolkien threatened to go Balory? :eek: I really must read more biographies. ;)

[Wayfarer]

*/claps Elfhelm on the back.


Be that as it may, I think at least part of what you said bears repeating: In time I hope you will come to realize that the alternative to conformity isn't nihilism, it is self-creativeness. I know you'll argue that today, but think about it for a while. Nihilism is just a different flavor of conformity. The true non-conformist creates himself daily.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
... I don't give a damn either way....
I myself am fascinated with the sadists of History. Perhaps I could use you and be a copy-cat? [rest of quote edited]
:eek: :eek: :eek: Wayfarer!!!!!!!!!! Is this your doing!?!?!?!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

:p I'm not the innocent sweetie you thought I was. ;)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
:p I'm not the innocent sweetie you thought I was. ;)
It's ok, Gwaimir... you don't have to protect Wayfarer. He's about to get a beatin' he so richly deserves!!!

[Wayfarer]

Ooh.

Kinky, aren't we?

[Psycho Kitty]

Ok like everyone is talking to me…

dreran… well I don’t think I was sayin that it should be realistic. I was just sayin I like gollum the best because of what he is (and what he isn’t). is that ok now? Can I do that? And as for heroes I don’t think the PURE hero really exists outside of movies and fiction. All real life heroes have non hero aspects to them.

she elf… yes elf I would enjoy eternal isolation and the total corruption of my mind by an outside source so I don’t have to be TRAPPED IN THIS STUPID BRAIN FILLED WITH CHOICES AND MORALS AND THINK THE SAME FREAKING WAY I DO NOW!!!! <hitting head>. Give me pleasant zombiedom.

no the shrinks couldn’t help me either. They tried. <evil grin>


ragnarok… yes thank you my definition of pure is the purist.

elfhelmet … you cannot escape conformity without total destruction of all that makes us petty social creatures. This cant be done by force of will. This can only be done by drugs or surgery. If you have an object like the ring that can do this for you perfectly well then that’s what I want. Mindless you say. Yes. That’s the ticket. Give me mindlessness through corruption or any other way. Don’t care. Just give it to me. Dark ignorant bliss.

I don’t really think gollum is a nihilist. He exists at the level below where you can consciously accept the idea of nihilism. He just is. That’s the perfection im getting at. Or are you giving me a speech about not being self destructive and caring about nothing? If that’s the case then don’t bother. Im more a self anarchist more then anything else. If there is such a thing.

Smeagol NEVER would have been able to resist the ring. Are you kidding? The ring is far too powerful and he was just a petty little thing. My only point is that I would like to be in that situation where such a thing could come to me and make me the zombie I want to be. To be The Animal. And anyway I don’t believe in karma.

durins bane… yer wrong cause if the ring had stayed in that community then it would eventually have found its way to someone with enough power to get into some real trouble. And yes you would have had wars because of it. This is the ring of sauron! It corrupts everyone and causes all things to end badly. Just because they were simple people doesn’t mean it would be safe with them.

And finally, gwaimi… god. Youre worse then the first guy. Are all the guys on this board into this kinda sicko kinky stuff? I mean that’s pretty cool but Im kinda surprised. I figured you guys would all be a bunch of book worms not masochists. Or is it something about me that gets em goin? <evil grin>

ok on your points. Devotion is a word humans created. Animals just do their thing. If that means mating for life then that’s what they do. They don’t sit around debating about it and think they are being moral or something like we pathetic humans do.

Gollum is NOT like that JUST because he was cast out of his village or whatever. Gollum had no choice but to seek COMPLETE isolation from everyone. If he was just cast out then he coulda just wondered like some nomad still interacting with people but just homeless like some small twisted ranger. But he went for total isolation. The idea of even interacting with anyone was like overwhelmingly negative to him.

What I was trying to say is that I think its significant that tolkien had a hobbit and a wretched little imp of a creature be the ones to finally destroy the ring and not all the big hero-like characters in the book. I think hes trying to say something with that. You disagree? So then to you its just incidental how the ring is destroyed then? Well not to me. sorry. It’s a pretty big flipin deal.

Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all. I just wanna be NOBODY. I want perfect escape. When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum. So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! If you don’t like it back the [edit] away! its real simple. Im not telling ya to not be noble or moral or thoughtful or whatever the [edit] you wanna be im just saying if I wanna suck the doubt and guilt and dispair and pity and politness and all that other shnit out of my brain then LET ME DO IT!! Or at least let me dream about it cause im stuck in this joke of a reality. Ok?

<deep breath>

and anyway im not always like this. Usually im pretty quiet. really!

[Wayfarer]

I was just sayin I like gollum the best because of what he is (and what he isn’t). is that ok now? Can I do that? And as for heroes I don’t think the PURE hero really exists outside of movies and fiction. All real life heroes have non hero aspects to them.

That would be ok. I like gollum for what he is. Anyone else like gollum? Raise your hands! *watches the hands raise*

You, on the other hand, seem to be obsessed with making him something he wasn't, and never could be. He is a creature of corruption, who has been forcefully stripped down until he was a bare shell of a stoor. Yet there's a tiny bit in the back of his mind that's still his own... and we get to see the interplay as he wrestles with and slowly succumbs to corruption.

yes elf I would enjoy eternal isolation and the total corruption of my mind by an outside source so I don’t have to be TRAPPED IN THIS STUPID BRAIN FILLED WITH CHOICES AND MORALS AND THINK THE SAME FREAKING WAY I DO NOW!!!! <hitting head>. Give me pleasant zombiedom.

Again, you show that you don't understand. Gollum's life was not at all pleasant, nor was it isolated and unaware. The layers of his mind had been stripped away and painfully exposed, and his life became more and more one of constant agony. There is even indication that he was aware of the source of his torment, he certainly displayed as much insight into the ring as anyone.

On the other hand, your desire to escape choices and morals and even, how pathetic, not to be forced to think is an incredible display of foolishness. There is no escape, not for you, not for gollum. The fact that you would wish such an escape is an indication that you are allready well on your way to gollum's state- and you don't seem to realize that it's only going to get worse.

my definition of pure is the purist.

You are ridiculous in your arbitrary redefinition of words to suit what you wish to think.

you cannot escape conformity without total destruction of all that makes us petty social creatures. This cant be done by force of will. This can only be done by drugs or surgery.

Again, you demonstrate a marked lack of understanding. Similarity is not conformance, and one may indeed have things in common with another without being called that. A conformist, by definition, is someone that makes a habitual effort to adopt the mannerisms of another individual or group. Of those on this forum, it is you, with your desire to be the same as gollum, that is the most conformist. The rest of us may be similar or different, but we are happily ourselves.

But he went for total isolation. The idea of even interacting with anyone was like overwhelmingly negative to him. Have you read the hobbit? Have you read the LOTR? Gollum /wanted/ someone to talk to. The small part of his mind that was still his own enjoyed the riddle-games with Bilbo, and was overwhelmingly glad when Frodo treated him well.

gwaimir… god. Youre worse then the first guy. Are all the guys on this board into this kinda sicko kinky stuff? I mean that’s pretty cool but Im kinda surprised. I figured you guys would all be a bunch of book worms not masochists. What Gwaimir and I demonstrated was sadism, not masochism. And both of us pulled our punchesWhat I was trying to say is that I think its significant that tolkien had a hobbit and a wretched little imp of a creature be the ones to finally destroy the ring and not all the big hero-like characters in the book. I think hes trying to say something with that. A widely accepted hypothesis, wouldn't you say?Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all. I just wanna be NOBODY. Not my place to tell you, really, but you already are. How do you like it?When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum. So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! Again, we all like gollum. It is only that you have a foolish misperception of gollum and are trying to make him out into some sort of ideal. He's not- but he's certainly a step up from you.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
And finally, gwaimi… god. Youre worse then the first guy. Are all the guys on this board into this kinda sicko kinky stuff? I mean that’s pretty cool but Im kinda surprised. I figured you guys would all be a bunch of book worms not masochists. Or is it something about me that gets em goin? <evil grin>

Um...thanks? ;) My point was that "raw instinct" provides a truly sick creature. :) In actuality, I do not dream of or consider doing such things; I merely find the individuals fascinating. But quite obviously, they did.

Oops, I forgot the Japanese torture! ;)

ok on your points. Devotion is a word humans created. Animals just do their thing. If that means mating for life then that’s what they do. They don’t sit around debating about it and think they are being moral or something like we pathetic humans do.

Firstly, you don't KNOW that...:p Secondly, you previously said that animals which are not corrupted by humanity are not "mixed up" by such things. Mating for life mixes them up. They could reproduce far better if they just mated and then forgot their partner.

Gollum is NOT like that JUST because he was cast out of his village or whatever. Gollum had no choice but to seek COMPLETE isolation from everyone. If he was just cast out then he coulda just wondered like some nomad still interacting with people but just homeless like some small twisted ranger. But he went for total isolation. The idea of even interacting with anyone was like overwhelmingly negative to him.

Indeed. He was corrupted by the touch of Evil, made into a fitting vessel for it.
He did not Seek isolation; he was exiled.
The reason he went for total isolation was, at least partially, because as is told in the Ring, he hated the light of the Sun and Moon. I think that probably another reason was that as such a vile, twisted creature, he felt guilt or shame, and could not bring himself to associate much at all with other creatures. Which is WHY, as you said, the idea of interacting with others was negative to him; because of his shame and twisted nature. Also,


What I was trying to say is that I think its significant that tolkien had a hobbit and a wretched little imp of a creature be the ones to finally destroy the ring and not all the big hero-like characters in the book. I think hes trying to say something with that. You disagree? So then to you its just incidental how the ring is destroyed then? Well not to me. sorry. It’s a pretty big flipin deal.

In a manner of speaking, you are correct, yes. One theme of Tolkien's work was the power of the "little person", i.e. Frodo, who had such strength of will to carry the Ring to the Crack of Doom before falling under its power. But Gollum was meant as a pathetic creature, on whom Frodo and Sam take pity for his sad, and miserable lot in life. Yes, he was miserable, even when he had the Ring. He hated and loved it, even as he hated and loved himself.

Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all. I just wanna be NOBODY. I want perfect escape. When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum. So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! If you don’t like it back the [edit] away! its real simple. Im not telling ya to not be noble or moral or thoughtful or whatever the [edit] you wanna be im just saying if I wanna suck the doubt and guilt and dispair and pity and politness and all that other shnit out of my brain then LET ME DO IT!! Or at least let me dream about it cause im stuck in this joke of a reality. Ok?

Then why do you praise Gollum because you see him as a non-conformist? :confused:
Well, to put it quite plainly, you started it. ;) Those of us who are members of this board are dedicated followers and lovers of the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. And the Gollum you idealise, quite frankly, I think very few of those who study the works of Tolkien would see. Indeed, I highly doubt that Tolkien himself would have seen him.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
she elf… yes elf I would enjoy eternal isolation and the total corruption of my mind by an outside source so I don’t have to be TRAPPED IN THIS STUPID BRAIN FILLED WITH CHOICES AND MORALS AND THINK THE SAME FREAKING WAY I DO NOW!!!! <hitting head>. Give me pleasant zombiedom.
:( :( :( :( :( :( I think you should see a psychiatrist. Or perhaps you have already come in contact with the Ring?


Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Ok look people im not interested in being myself or a conformist or a nonconformist for that matter or anything at all.
Odd. Just a while you were saying you wanted to be Gollum because you thought he was a nonconformist.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
I just wanna be NOBODY. I want perfect escape.
There, there. I don't think that's what you really want, because if it was, you would be dead, wouldn't you? (Feel free to correct me. Just an opinion.)

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
When I read the hobbit and the lord of the rings I identified with gollum.
Me too. Anyone who identifies with Frodo must identify with Gollum.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
So why are all yall people trying to argue with me about what I freaking find attractive!!! If you don’t like it back the [edit] away! its real simple.
This is a discussion board. We discuss things like people's opinions. (I was hoping someone would join the debate on your side, though.)

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Im not telling ya to not be noble or moral or thoughtful or whatever the [edit] you wanna be im just saying if I wanna suck the doubt and guilt and dispair and pity and politness and all that other shnit out of my brain then LET ME DO IT!! Or at least let me dream about it cause im stuck in this joke of a reality. Ok?
NO! WE WILL NOT LET YOU GO! Then no one would debate with us about Gollum! ;)

[Elfhelm]

Wanting to become nothing is nihilism, that's what I'm saying. "nihil" is latin for nothing.

Realizing one can choose self-destruction is the beginning of free will. That is a result of experience.

Realizing one can choose self-creation is the only opposite. As opposed to conformity.

Smeagol wimped out. I believe the One Ring was always resistable. And I think Sam showed it. And it is Sam, who you might think is settling into conformity, but to my mind he is the only one who is forced out of his normal life by disruptive events, goes into the darkest part of the world, finds salvation, and brings it back to his community - which is what I call a hero and so does Joseph Campbell, for what it's worth.

[Psycho Kitty]

Ok. I get it now. This is the haze the new kid party. That’s cool. Have your fun. Kinda middle school but I can deal. When do we get to the point where I can actually make posts without people feeling the need to jump all over me for simply expressing an opinion? Just lemme know when we get there cause im interested.

Lets see how did all this start… Oh yeah. She elf asked “who are you in middle earth” and I said hey well Id like to be gollum if that’s ok cause I like him the most. Now the proper response shoulda been like um ok. Whatever. Youre weird. well i wanna be an elf because… and that would have been that. But no its hey the new kid wants to be gollum lets take her outback and beat her to a pulp for the fun of it. And she elf made a new thread basically inviting me out back. And I don’t ever back down from a challenge so out I went. And the beating began. And when I fought back and wouldn’t give in easy they call in the two hell hounds who threaten to cut my heart out and eat it. Well I guess yall are gonna have to keep it up cause its not intimidating me and I don’t back down. So haze away people.

Ok hell hound number 1: ok youre easy. Youre just the classic bully with a chip on his shoulder for some reason. I wont ask what happened to you in childhood to get you that way cause I don’t care. But keep youre hot air to yourself. It doesn’t impress me. You don’t speak for tolkien and you don’t speak for me so half the crap you said immediately doesn’t work. When tolkien jumps out of his grave and says you represent his work lemme know k.

On the other hand, your desire to escape choices and morals and even, how pathetic, not to be forced to think is an incredible display of foolishness. There is no escape, not for you, not for gollum. The fact that you would wish such an escape is an indication that you are allready well on your way to gollum's state- and you don't seem to realize that it's only going to get worse.

are you even preaching to me now? Your opinion about what I want to do with MY self is completely worthless. Get it? Its MY FREAKING CHOICE! If you want to be an overbearing conceded close minded arrogant prick who spends their time trying to spook new kids on message boards by telling them how they want to eat their guts when all they did was express who they would like to be in a book of fiction then be my guest. Makes my choice for nothingness seem all the more attractive. So thanks. Youre a perfect example of the hostile unfriendly [edit]s in life who feel the need to display their supposed superiority to everyone they meet not realizing the truly superior person would never feel the need to do that. I have to deal with enough small minded people like you in life and thats one of the big reasons I want to escape it. So keep it up. Im sure youll be thrilled to know you are helping push me there. So you can add me to your list of little people whose heads you’ve bitten off. Bet it makes you feel good reading that list every day doesn’t it.

Of those on this forum, it is you, with your desire to be the same as gollum, that is the most conformist. The rest of us may be similar or different, but we are happily ourselves.

dude wake up. The question was to pick someone who YOU WANT TO BE LIKE FROM MIDDLE EARTH! Now how do you propose I pick someone without actually picking someone? Please explain that one to me. And if desiring to be a loathsome pathetic wicked little creature twisted by evil is conformity then I think that makes YOU the ‘redefinition’ master. Not me.

Have you read the hobbit? Have you read the LOTR? Gollum /wanted/ someone to talk to. The small part of his mind that was still his own enjoyed the riddle-games with Bilbo, and was overwhelmingly glad when Frodo treated him well.

ok ONCE AGAIN this part was smeagol NOT gollum. Gollum just wanted to eat bilbo not play riddles with him. How many times do I need to say I want to be like GOLLUM and NOT SMEAGOL. Nice try.

What Gwaimir and I demonstrated was sadism, not masochism. And both of us pulled our punches

oh well please don’t hold back for my sake. Keep punching. I thrive on pain. And I like the taste of my own blood in my mouth. Makes me feel alive.

[Psycho Kitty]

Hell hound number 2:

Firstly, you don't KNOW that... Secondly, you previously said that animals which are not corrupted by humanity are not "mixed up" by such things. Mating for life mixes them up. They could reproduce far better if they just mated and then forgot their partner.

do you know much about biology now? Im still learning it but I DO know that some animals do better mating for life and some don’t. so if an animal can do better mating for life then that’s what it does. But it doesn’t THINK about it. It just does cause if it didn’t its kids would die.

***

Ok as for the rest of your post Im fine with most of it. The only differences I see are that you don’t see the pure animal part in gollum that I see. Of course he was tortured and pathetic. Im not worried about that. You guys keep coming back to that like I should be all alarmed by that or something. That doesn’t matter to me. All im saying is if I had my choice id rather be more like that then like say gandolf or froto or most of the humans. I mean think how much they had to worry about and deal with.

Well, to put it quite plainly, you started it. Those of us who are members of this board are dedicated followers and lovers of the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. And the Gollum you idealise, quite frankly, I think very few of those who study the works of Tolkien would see. Indeed, I highly doubt that Tolkien himself would have seen him.

I don’t expect you to see the things I see. I have a different perspective from you. What I do expect you to do is open your minds and say ok that’s your deal and it doesn’t work for me but maybe it works for you. And I can respect that. But instead you preach at me and tell me im wrong. How can an opinion be wrong? How can a gut feeling be wrong? Its not FACTUAL! So ya let me know when you officially become the resurrected voice of tolkien and then ill start listening to what you have to say about what tolkien was thinking.

Ok im done again so I guess its time for the next round in beat up the new kid. So ill sit here patiently waiting for your further abuse.

[Psycho Kitty]

she elf...

I think you should see a psychiatrist. Or perhaps you have already come in contact with the Ring?

ive seen a shrink. They just said I was a smart ass. And I wish I could come in contact with the ring.

There, there. I don't think that's what you really want, because if it was, you would be dead, wouldn't you? (Feel free to correct me. Just an opinion.)

correcting you… dead is dead. Escape is alive but no worries. Perfect escape is total oblivion of your human mind (or elf mind). I want to be Animal.

Me too. Anyone who identifies with Frodo must identify with Gollum.

an elf identifies with frodo?

This is a discussion board. We discuss things like people's opinions. (I was hoping someone would join the debate on your side, though.)

hey we both know that would never happen. Im the new kid remember.

NO! WE WILL NOT LET YOU GO! Then no one would debate with us about Gollum!

what about the next new kid? But don’t worry elf. Im not going anywhere. Getting picked on just encourages me. Im a sucker for punishment.

[Elfhelm]

I'm glad I didn't get lumped in as a hazer! :D

Some of your ideas are scary. I'm sure you know that. Of course people are over-reacting. But browse around and check out other threads before you jump to conclusions.

Yes, some people want to convince others to think like them, but not everyone in this thread is that way. I hope you'll realize there are independent thinkers here, too, and that you'll enjoy engaging us in more witty reparté.

By the way, most people use TV to become nothings. I still think it is the ultimate conformity.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer, the sick
What Gwaimir and I demonstrated was sadism, not masochism. And both of us pulled our punches
Don't you corrupt our innocent Gwai!!! You keep away from him. *starts to beat on Wayfarer* Stand behind me Gwai, I'll protect you!
Ruinel ---> http://www.spacespider.net/emo/grr10.gif <---Wayfarer
Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
...In actuality, I do not dream of or consider doing such things....
Oh, what a relief!!! I suppose I can stop beating on Wayfarer now. *stops beating on Wayfarer, sees that Wayfarer likes it, then cringes*
Wayfarer--> http://www.spacespider.net/emo/devil07.gif
Oh, yes... and Wayfarer, before you respond to this, from Psycho Kitty...
oh well please don’t hold back for my sake. Keep punching. I thrive on pain. And I like the taste of my own blood in my mouth. Makes me feel alive.
... remember that you don't know how old she is. (or young) ;)

[Wayfarer]

http://www.spacespider.net/emo/devil12.gif

Wayfarer ->http://www.spacespider.net/emo/grr12.gif<- Ruinel

oh well please don’t hold back for my sake. Keep punching. I thrive on pain. And I like the taste of my own blood in my mouth. Makes me feel alive. But you don't want to feel alive, do you? You don't want to feel anything.

But don't worry, you can rest assured that I'm not picking on you because you're a newbie. I'm picking on you because there aren't enough masochists around. I pick on everybody. http://www.spacespider.net/emo/whip.gif

You just don't seem to realize that consigning yourself to torment isn't going to solve any problems. Really. Been there, danced with the dark lords, gazed into the abyss, and have the post-card to prove it.

http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/edoom/flamethrowingsmiley.gif So by all means, don't let me intimidate you. And remember that Gollum is cool, but he's not the ideal you want to paint him as. In the end, gollum is one of the least happy beings in middle earth. It is Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise who escape from this world and are healed of their hurts. Gollum finds no such freedom in life.

And may I ask, if it's not prying, why it is you would desire escape as opposed to healing?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
ive seen a shrink. They just said I was a smart ass.
Ah. Well they'd probably label me the same. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
correcting you… dead is dead. Escape is alive but no worries. Perfect escape is total oblivion of your human mind (or elf mind). I want to be Animal.
Animals have the worries of were to find the next meal, to be sheltered during the next sandstorm, finding a mate.

Isn't death more oblivion than life ever will be?

To sleep, perchance to dream... Ay, there's the rub!

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
an elf identifies with frodo?
Certainly more than I identify with any other hobbit.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
hey we both know that would never happen. Im the new kid remember.
You'd be surprised some of the wierd opinions we get here. Check out Black Breathalizer.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
what about the next new kid? But don’t worry elf. Im not going anywhere. Getting picked on just encourages me. Im a sucker for punishment.
Not all new kids are willing to debate. ;)

We aren't picking on you! (Well except some of the male people with W's in their initials maybe...)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
http://www.spacespider.net/emo/devil12.gif

Wayfarer ->http://www.spacespider.net/emo/grr12.gif<- Ruinel



Are we going to start this again? Didn't you get a thorough enough beating yesterday? Don't you want those whelps to heal first before I give you more?


As for the rest... *sigh* dammit!!! I agree with Wayfarer... he's got a good point. AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!

[Wayfarer]

And us W people pick on everybody. http://66.227.101.70/otn/evil/king.gif

So don't take it personal. We like to play a bit rough sometimes. Thanks for joining. http://www.freeadpower.org/~mrsmiles/otn/evil/mboesgrins.gif

Originally posted by Ruinel
Are we going to start this again? Didn't you get a thorough enough beating yesterday? Don't you want those whelps to heal first before I give you more? Hey, I was enjoying the mutual application of brute violence via emoticons. I'll play wit'cha, but the question is do you want to risk messing up that pretty elven face and figure?

Originally posted by Ruinel
As for the rest... *sigh* dammit!!! I agree with Wayfarer... he's got a good point. AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!

http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/ed/smileeek.gif

Umm... http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/love/kotc.gif

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Hey, I was enjoying the mutual application of brute violence via emoticons. I'll play wit'cha, but the question is do you want to risk messing up that pretty elven face and figure?
I think it would be you licking your wounds after I was finished with you, Maia!



http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/ed/smileeek.gif

Umm... http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/love/kotc.gif
:eek: Don't get any ideas!

[Starr Polish]

Psycho Kitty, I know you.

Maybe not personally, but you're everywhere. Every single high school and junior high has one, usually more. In fact, I used to be a watered down version of what you are (I was not nearly as severe about it though). Some of those old aspects of my personality still pop up now and then, but they shame me now.

Making yourself the victim, saying you thrive on pain, twisting words and actions to try to make people feel sorry for yourself, by "going against the grain"...It's not all that new, or shocking. This ISN'T pick on the newbie (that's really not a problem here on Entmoot), it's find out who's trying to get attention. I'm willing to talk about this PM, but I'd rather not, because I don't feel like feeding your need for attention.

I grew out of it. I hope you do too.

[Elf Girl]

My junior high doesn't have one... at least not that I know of.

Wayfarer and Ruinel, keep your smilies out of my precious debate thread.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Wayfarer and Ruinel, keep your smilies out of my precious debate thread. Mwaahahahahahaaha!
http://www.spacespider.net/emo/devil03.gif

[azalea]

Originally posted by Elf Girl

Wayfarer and Ruinel, keep your smilies out of my precious debate thread.

No kidding...what is this, GM or something?;)

Anyway...
PK, I hope you understand that these people are merely trying to have a debate, not haze you. You are peppering your posts with some very personal statements unrelated to the debate at hand, which is "Gollum and the Ring."

Everyone, Elf Girl put this in this forum because she knows that this is the place where we can debate matters pertaining to LotR. Please try to keep your posts on topic. Discussion of more personal matters can be taken over to a more appropriate thread in GM, or can be done in PMs. Also, be sure your posts do not contain flames. Thank you.:)

[Psycho Kitty]

Elfhelmet… no your ideas are fine and I can debate with you which is acceptable. You don’t rush out of the dark and yell about eating my head or something. Big difference.


Some of your ideas are scary. I'm sure you know that.

ya very scary Im sure. I accept that though. Its all one big range. And Im always way beyond the bell curve. On everything.

I hope you'll realize there are independent thinkers here, too, and that you'll enjoy engaging us in more witty reparté.

ya Im getting an idea of personalities. And really I don’t care if you are nasty to me I can take it. But I DO fight back. Although I guess you’ve noticed that by now. <evil grin>

By the way, most people use TV to become nothings. I still think it is the ultimate conformity.

I agree. Kill your tv.

Hell hound number 1…

But you don't want to feel alive, do you? You don't want to feel anything.

I guess what I want is to cut out certain parts of my brain and enhance other parts. I just want to be the animal that doesn’t feel the human parts. To be able to act and react without all the guilt and remorse and second guessing and crap.

I pick on everybody.

Pick away. But I fight back against everybody. Even the smart masochistic bullies. And I DO bite. Maybe you can help bring out that animal in me hell hound.

You just don't seem to realize that consigning yourself to torment isn't going to solve any problems.

What torment?

So by all means, don't let me intimidate you

Oh don’t worry I wont.

And may I ask, if it's not prying, why it is you would desire escape as opposed to healing?

Why would I need healing if I don’t think im injured? That’s sounds kinda 1984ish.

She elf…

Isn't death more oblivion than life ever will be?

should I seek death then? Is that your suggestion? Or should I seek a place where I feel id rather be then here.

To sleep, perchance to dream... Ay, there's the rub!

funny you should mention. I also identify with hamlet as well. Can you imagine why? ;)

Not all new kids are willing to debate.

We aren't picking on you! (Well except some of the male people with W's in their initials maybe...)

well like I said I can handle myself against all comers. And so far its been like batting practice. <evil grin>

star polish…

ok I just erased the long screatching diatribe I wrote in response to your little post. Because it had nothing to do with the topic and because it was especially vicious. But that’s only because your big sister/I was like you when I was immature speech made me more pissed then any of the hell hounds ever did. Basically the idea of my post was: spare me. And no you DON’T know me so don’t try. If you want to give me more speeches then ya, go ahead and contact me some other way. Id be more then happy to tell you my thoughts about your advice…

azalea…

im just responding. My original post was id like to be gollum. Then it quickly got personal from there. And im not the type of person to ignore personal attacks. But anyway back to the issue. Are we done?

[Elf Girl]

No! Hahah, we will never be done! (Insert evil smiley here.)

Hamlet: Yes, I can see why you would identify with him. :rolleyes:

Seeking death: No. Do not go committing suicide because I told you it was oblivion. (Somehow I doubt you will though.)

So! The topic: Does Gollum have an ideal life?

He loves and hates the Ring, and the murder of his best friend haunts him. He lives in a cold dark place and can never feel the sun or the wind or the light of the stars. He longs for company, but rejects it and tries to kill it when it comes. Sound ideal? :)

[Attalus]

What a strange thread. Pscho Kitty, I agree with Starr Polish that your experiences and mechanisms of dealing with the stresses and pains of adolescence are hardly novel, nor is your identifying with a literary character that you perceive as suffering in a way that you do. If you want to admire Gollum and project your anxieties and fears onto him, it is fine by me. I do object to your statement that there are no heroes in RL (I could name a dozen - I get the strong feeling that you associate heroes with the "Popular Element" in school. They aren't heroes, or even close.) and that animals don't feel devotion. Dogs, to an abnormal degree, but even in the wild. Have you ever seen the behavior of a Snow Goose whos mate has been killed? Screaming and covering the corpse with its wing? I have. For the record, I dislike Gollum, and have always liked that JRRT made him to be the one thing that could destroy the One Ring, because it had destroyed his will. At any rate, I hope that you find your way out of the dark place that you find yourself in. Pax.

[Dreran the Green]

Originally posted by Attalus
What a strange thread. Pscho Kitty, I agree with Starr Polish that your experiences and mechanisms of dealing with the stresses and pains of adolescence are hardly novel, nor is your identifying with a literary character that you perceive as suffering in a way that you do. If you want to admire Gollum and project your anxieties and fears onto him, it is fine by me. I do object to your statement that there are no heroes in RL (I could name a dozen - I get the strong feeling that you associate heroes with the "Popular Element" in school. They aren't heroes, or even close.) and that animals don't feel devotion. Dogs, to an abnormal degree, but even in the wild. Have you ever seen the behavior of a Snow Goose whos mate has been killed? Screaming and covering the corpse with its wing? I have. For the record, I dislike Gollum, and have always liked that JRRT made him to be the one thing that could destroy the One Ring, because it had destroyed his will. At any rate, I hope that you find your way out of the dark place that you find yourself in. Pax.

Uh...ditto. Except I don't dislike Gollum....and I have never seen a goose in mourning

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Uh...ditto. Except I don't dislike Gollum....and I have never seen a goose in mourning It's not a sight for the tender-hearted, I assure you. I have never been goose-hunting, since.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Okay, I'm just going to say a few things:

We are not picking on you because you are new; we are quite a newbie-friendly environment. However, you have made it quite evident that you are considerably more comfortable pretending to be the victim of the evil people who don't agree with you, then go right ahead.

Also, the topic was not about which existing character you want to be. Original characters (and not just gender-changes) were used by the other people

Yes, some people want to convince others to think like them, but not everyone in this thread is that way. I hope you'll realize there are independent thinkers here, too, and that you'll enjoy engaging us in more witty reparté.

Quite amusing. :D

Okay, and now I am officially bowing out of this thread, as it is quite obvious what this is, and I highly doubt anyone's going to do anything at all of any value, so I don't see a point in trying. :)

[Dreran the Green]

They're right ya know about how they don't pick on newbies. I'm a newbie too. I haven't been picked on
..........unless you're all whispering behind my back *looks around suspiciously*
............Nah.:D

[Psycho Kitty]

Hamlet: Yes, I can see why you would identify with him. :rolleyes:

hey i love tragedies that involve insanity. <evil laugh>

Seeking death: No. Do not go committing suicide because I told you it was oblivion. (Somehow I doubt you will though.)

nope. dont worry. its not a plan. beleive it or not ive never even tried.

So! The topic: Does Gollum have an ideal life?

wait was that the topic?

He loves and hates the Ring, and the murder of his best friend haunts him. He lives in a cold dark place and can never feel the sun or the wind or the light of the stars. He longs for company, but rejects it and tries to kill it when it comes. Sound ideal? :)

you are making the mistake of speaking mostly of smeagol here. maybe the confusion could be avoided if he had like a third name. and that would be the guy that combines both gollum and smeagol. what i see as gollum is the empty creature bent only on survival and isolation. the social one is smeagol.

[Psycho Kitty]

Attalus ...

Pscho Kitty, I agree with Starr Polish that your experiences and mechanisms of dealing with the stresses and pains of adolescence are hardly novel, nor is your identifying with a literary character that you perceive as suffering in a way that you do. If you want to admire Gollum and project your anxieties and fears onto him, it is fine by me.

then you like star polish are speaking to the wrong person because you DONT know me and you dont know squat about what ive been through and what Im really like. so dont write me off as just some dark troubled teenager full of angst and with no direction because you really have no clue. and i dont fit any easy stereotype at all. i dont think gollum suffers like i do. i want to BE him. in the way that he has something that i dont. or maybe a better way to put it would be he DOESNT need to live a way that i have to. i have no one and nothing to project my anxieties onto and i fear very little. but im beginning to get the impression that a lot of people are projecting their stereotypes onto me. especially since some of you have been so off base.

I do object to your statement that there are no heroes in RL (I could name a dozen - I get the strong feeling that you associate heroes with the "Popular Element" in school.

case in point to what i said above. its hard for there to be a big "popular element" in your school when you are home schooled. and i stand by my statement about heroes. there are heroic ACTIONS but not heroes. because there are no perfect people. and heroism is by definition untainted. you may not like that definition but thats the one ive come to by observing people in my life.

At any rate, I hope that you find your way out of the dark place that you find yourself in. Pax.

i wish i was in a darker place now. thats exactly where i want to be.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
They're right ya know about how they don't pick on newbies. I'm a newbie too. I haven't been picked on
..........unless you're all whispering behind my back *looks around suspiciously*
............Nah.:D

dreran Ill take your word for it. but surely you can agree that if you had posted something you felt was true about you and you had people suddenly jumpin all over you and threatening to eat your guts and torture you wouldnt you wonder what the heck was up with that? call me paranoid if ya like but sometimes theres a half decent reason for it.

[Starr Polish]

About your definition of hero being untainted:

I'm all for living by personal definitions, by far. I've often been misunderstood (particularly when I say I'm spiritual, but not particularly "religious") because of personal defnitions of words. BUT, if we were going by the rigid definition of hero...

Hero 1. A person of great courage, spirit, etc., esp. one who has undergone great danger or difficulty. 2 Any admirable or highly regarded man. 3 The main male character in a fictional or dramatic word. 4 In classical mythology, a man of both mortal and divine parentage, noted for outstanding courage, fortitude, etc. 5 A sandwich made from a loaf of bread or large roll split lengthwise...

Okay, the last definition makes me laugh (but it's really in my dictionary!) According to some of those definitions, heroes do exist in real life. According to your definition, no, the do not, except for those who follow certain relgious doctrines (and I don't want to bring religion into this thread).

Yes, I have no life, but I'm working on it. :D

[Elfhelm]

Nonsense. Some heroes don't live up to the expectations of their quests, like MacBeth or Hamlet. Heroes fail sometimes, that's partly why we care. Superheroes are not heroes. A successful hero brings what was gained back to the community, a failed hero uses what was gained to serve himself... generally.

You see, thousands of critics for thousands of years have argued what is a hero, and a dictionary is written by people who are not literary critics, so what makes anyone think any dictionary can define the concept of hero when nobody can agree on one!?

By Joseph Campbell's definition of a hero, which is the definition I have chosen to accept, it is Samwise Gamgee.

[Psycho Kitty]

you see hamlet as a hero?

[Elfhelm]

Sure, heroes don't always succeed.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree that heroes don't always succeed, but I don't think that a hero is just the central character.

[Sween]

Gollum is the ultimate anti hero! hes not a hero and basically has very little thats good about him. He was never a nice person lets set thats stright he killed degol in a second he was never quite right. Killing a friend does it make him evil (maybe) taking the ring and evil dead (nope the ring is alltogether evil)

his life was very awful and for what he may of done you will forgive him!

Did he ever intentionally help frodo? yes he did and for that he must be forgave for a while he still kept something good about infact in a weird way i think the good part of him may of gorwn because of the ring as strange as that is the evil was much stronger but at the same time he hated the ring and wanted just to be free in many ways and frodo held him in respect something he not known for a long time.

he allmost repent sending them to shelob but the ring had him in many ways it wasnt his fault.

did he mean to destroy the ring? No but without him it would never ever of come about. He isnt a hero but we should have pity and be grateful to him

[Elfhelm]

Like I said, the "what makes a hero" discussion has been going on for as long as there were stories. To me, a hero has to have a quest, at least. Hamlet's quest was to restore order to the state of Denmark. He has everything a hero needs including a spiritual adviser. Did he restore order in the end, or just make more chaos? I guess it's arguable either way. The number of bystanders slain because of his hedging and second-guessing leads me to say that he failed.

Did Gollum have a quest? I don't think so. Frodo obviously did, but I think that's really a smoke screen. The real quest is Sam's. He's the one who is tempted by what he sees in Galadriel's bowl. He's the one who has to endure when all seems lost. Gwaimir mentioned that Frodo isn't an Everyman figure. True. The Everyman figure is Sam. I could go on, but this is a Gollum thread. I think Gollum is an antagonist.

If Gollum did have a quest, what would it be? To find his precious and go back underground again? How would that right the wrongs in the world?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty

wait was that the topic?
I think so...

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
you are making the mistake of speaking mostly of smeagol here. maybe the confusion could be avoided if he had like a third name. and that would be the guy that combines both gollum and smeagol. what i see as gollum is the empty creature bent only on survival and isolation. the social one is smeagol.
But remember, the change was gradual. Gollum thinks he's still Smeagol. They are the same person. Gollum does have memories of killing a dear friend and being banished from his village.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Firstly, I think that MacBeth didn't actually think he was writing wrongs; was there a specific part in the play that I forgot, where he said this? :confused: I got the impression it was lust for power.

Secondly, as Shakespeare was a Christian, I've read some interesting Christian commentary on MacBeth...:D But you wouldn't want that, would you? ;)

Thirdly, Gollum and Smeagol, while certainly not the same, are not wholely distinguishable from one another, I think.

[Elf Girl]

O yesyesyes. They inhabit the same body, and I believe Gollum, at least, thinks that he is Smeagol.

[Psycho Kitty]

i think gollum is the way smeagols psyche deals with his rather messed up situation. i also think smeagol wasnt the greatest guy before he even ran accross the ring. but the ring drew out the animal/survival part of smeagol that became gollum. its not really just a schitzo thing going on with him because he isnt seeing someone else. he knows he is talking to himself. but it feels to him like two distinct personalities which it is. i think this kinda thing exists in all of us its just we dont run accross the supernatural power needed to cause such a major splitting of our personalities into seperate creatures like it did in smeagol/gollum. sometimes it can happen when there is severe stress and stuff like years of abuse then you get split personalities. ever read cybil? thats basically what i think is going on with gollum. only its special because of the ring. and gollum is simply the survivor who does what he needs to do despite what smeagol thinks. and has no remorse. in a way you can look at smeagol/gollum paralleling with sauron. cause sauron poured a lot of himself out into the ring. and the ring had a will of its own because of this. and smeagol because of the ring had his personalities split (or portions poured out) into gollum. im not saying gollum is like some kinda mr. hyde or something but the distinction is obvious to me.

[azalea]

I just want to make a minor point: technically, although Gollum certainly exhibited some schizophrenic traits, what people commonly refer to as schizophrenia in him re: Smeagol and Gollum is actually called dissociative disorder ("split personalities"), and is not the same disease as schizophrenia. This is a common misconception (ie, the old joke "Hi, I'm a schizo and so am I.") There are different types of schizophrenia, one being paranoia ("everyone's out to get me"), which I do think Gollum borders on having (other types include catatonic, where the person stays in one usually awkward position for a very long time, and the one that manifests itself in delusions of grandeur, such as the guy who thinks he's Napoleon.) Just FYI and to clarify that a bit.:)

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
...Shakespeare was a Christian...

I think I'm going to get sick.

[Wayfarer]

gollum is simply the survivor who does what he needs to do despite what smeagol thinks. and has no remorse. But it makes no sense to say this.

Smeagol/Gollum didn't act in a way that best furthered his survival. He acted in a way that was malicious and harmful, and resulted in him being shunned by his friends and family, which left him half-starved and alone.

Compare Gollum to Bilbo. Gollum spent several centuries alone in the dark, and miserable, starving. Bilbo, for the half century he had the ring, lived in a warm house, mostly happy and well fed. Who, then, was the better survivor?

[Dreran the Green]

The one with food of course! Mmmmm....food....

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
But it makes no sense to say this.

Smeagol/Gollum didn't act in a way that best furthered his survival. He acted in a way that was malicious and harmful, and resulted in him being shunned by his friends and family, which left him half-starved and alone.

Compare Gollum to Bilbo. Gollum spent several centuries alone in the dark, and miserable, starving. Bilbo, for the half century he had the ring, lived in a warm house, mostly happy and well fed. Who, then, was the better survivor?

but he WANTED to be alone. and gollum allowed him to survive even under what we would call such horrible conditions. but he was fine with it. he would never have wanted to live like bilbo. to be stuck in a house. with pretty flowers around. eating horrible cooked food. dealing with other hobbits. he never could have delt with that. his ideal situation WAS far away in the darkness away from everyone. thats where he could truly relax. probably the same thing would have happened to bildo eventually. look how antsy he was by the time the lord of the rings takes place. he cant stay there anymore. dont think just because he doesnt live like you that he isnt living the way he prefers. your projecting yourself on him and hes not you. its like saying a slug must be miserable because they are always slimy. well come on. the cave was gollums ideal environment. not the sunlight. not the outside world dealing with other people. and yes gollum allowed him to survive that kinda environment better then anyone else could have.

[Ragnarok]

a hero in my book is two things selflessness and sacrifice.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I think I'm going to get sick.

Why? Do you not believe it, or does the thought merely sicken you? :)

but he WANTED to be alone.

He did not. He was cast out. If you have to be thrown out, that hardly implies you want to be out.

his ideal situation WAS far away in the darkness away from everyone. thats where he could truly relax.
dont think just because he doesnt live like you that he isnt living the way he prefers. your projecting yourself on him and hes not you.

No, it was made perfectly evident that Smeagol/Gollum was a miserable, twisted, enormously unhappy creature. It is you who are projecting yourself (or rather, your ideal) upon him.

[Elf Girl]

:confused: Shakeshpeare was Christian.

[Elfhelm]

As if he had a choice? I'm sure! Let's see? Thumb screws, death on a pyre, or Church of England Protestantism? Hmm... To interpret any writer by virtue of a forced religion in his culture is narrow-minded, but hey, why not?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sorry, but I mean a REAL Christian, not just someone who claims to be on account of the state religion.

[Psycho Kitty]

He did not. He was cast out. If you have to be thrown out, that hardly implies you want to be out.

but he didn’t just go somewhere else where there were people did he. That would have been the easy thing to do. Or become some kind of wondering homeless nomad ranger type creature like I said before. That would have been the next logical step. No he made his way to isolated places and finally to an underground place where he could be free from the outside world and the horrible sunlight and nasty people who he didn’t like dealing with. So if the only reason he left his people was because he was cast out then why did he actually leave all of civilization behind and seek out complete isolation. He wasn’t thrown out by every little tribe on middle earth. Just one. And its not like he put on the ring and suddenly wanted to be isolated. It took hundreds and hundreds of years to get to the point where we see him.

No, it was made perfectly evident that Smeagol/Gollum was a miserable, twisted, enormously unhappy creature. It is you who are projecting yourself (or rather, your ideal) upon him.

GOLLUM! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GOLLUM REMEMBER! Not smeagol/gollum. His gollum aspect was NOT enormously unhappy or miserable. YOU are the one projecting again. Assuming because the way he lives looks so nasty and pathetic to you that he must be miserable and unhappy. Well free your mind for a second will you. Every creature is different. Maybe smeagol was sad about his past life and had regrets but GOLLUM didn’t care. Gollum was in his element. Gollum could have lived that way forever. If he had been so so miserable then why spend 500 years living that way! Why not go out and buy a house and plant a garden? And while we are at it why do monkeys live in trees? And wear no clothes? Why don’t they get some common sense and come down from there and start living in houses and wearing little vests and watching TV like the rest of us. What miserable lives they must be living. Get my point?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No he made his way to isolated places and finally to an underground place where he could be free from the outside world and the horrible sunlight and nasty people who he didn’t like dealing with.

Actually he just wandered around with downcast eyes, hiding them from the Yellow Face. Then when he saw the mountain, he thought it would be cool and dark, and full of secrets, and went there.

GOLLUM! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GOLLUM REMEMBER! Not smeagol/gollum.

Gollum is not wholly separate from Smeagol; the two are different, to be sure, yet still the same.

YOU are the one projecting again. Assuming because the way he lives looks so nasty and pathetic to you that he must be miserable and unhappy. Well free your mind for a second will you. Every creature is different. Maybe smeagol was sad about his past life and had regrets but GOLLUM didn’t care. Gollum was in his element. Gollum could have lived that way forever. If he had been so so miserable then why spend 500 years living that way!

Nope; again, they are not really separable. Gollum was a SIDE of the creature, but he was not independent, or his own being. Remember, he had to convince Smeagol to betray Frodo.

And while we are at it why do monkeys live in trees? And wear no clothes? Why don’t they get some common sense and come down from there and start living in houses and wearing little vests and watching TV like the rest of us. What miserable lives they must be living. Get my point?

Indeed I do. But I don't think it's a very good one. :) Monkeys are animals, and cannot really be compared to sentient, evil beings such as Gollum.

[Psycho Kitty]

Actually he just wandered around with downcast eyes, hiding them from the Yellow Face. Then when he saw the mountain, he thought it would be cool and dark, and full of secrets, and went there.

but your point was that he only left civilization behind because he was thrown out of his tribe by force. My point was that he was seeking something more ideal for him. This supports my point.

Gollum is not wholly separate from Smeagol; the two are different, to be sure, yet still the same.

they dwell in the same body ya. But for our purposes here we are talking about the gollum aspect of the smeagol/gollum creature.

Nope; again, they are not really separable. Gollum was a SIDE of the creature, but he was not independent, or his own being. Remember, he had to convince Smeagol to betray Frodo.

god… ok think of it like a siamese twin or something. Sure they are attached. They can even share the same heart and the same brain. But they can have different personalities and disagree on things. One can be assertive and one can be passive. This is normal.

Indeed I do. But I don't think it's a very good one. :) Monkeys are animals, and cannot really be compared to sentient, evil beings such as Gollum.

but gollum is the ANIMAL aspect. The survival part of the smeagol/gollum creature. We have that in all of us only its kept in check more by the human part of us. but we are all animals anyway.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

"More ideal" for him, I agree with, but to say that he turned his back on civilization, I do not.

Yes, but there is an entirely different matter between two different people born who were physically attached, and the case with Smeagol and Gollum. Siamese twins are attached. Smeagol and Gollum are within the same body. And Gollum originated from Smeagol's mind.

but gollum is the ANIMAL aspect. The survival part of the smeagol/gollum creature. We have that in all of us only its kept in check more by the human part of us. but we are all animals anyway.

No, Gollum is the corrupted, evil aspect. He is the part of Smeagol/Gollum which is taken over by the Ring, and given over to Evil. As to whether or not we are animals or not, that is an entirely different debate. Suffice it to say that many do not believe this, and indeed according to many who strongly ascribe to evolutionary theory, we are immensely more evolved than other animals, and cannot really be compared to them.

[Elfhelm]

And certainly Tolkien didn't believe we are animals. He, like so many, had that species superiority complex that has allowed us to consume an entire planet without even the slightest pangs of guilt. When the maiar who care about the animals and especially the trees complained to Eru about this, Eru just said, basically, too bad. But the Ents, pitiful in the long run, were created to defend it. It didn't help much in the end, did it?

So, since Tolkien didn't ascribe to evolutionary theory, you have to admit that it's a highly personal interpretation to put the theme of The Sea Wolf onto Gollum's character.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Suffice it to say that many do not believe this, and indeed according to many who strongly ascribe to evolutionary theory, we are immensely more evolved than other animals, and cannot really be compared to them.

gwaimir are we speaking for the evolutionists again? ;)

Evolution hasnt lead to man. evolution is not simply a grading scale in which we are the standard to judge by. man is just one small flicker of flame that helps to comprise this gigantic chemical reaction we call LIFE.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Gollum originated from Smeagol's mind.


I would take that even further and say that the Ring acted on Smeagol's mind, and the result was Gollum.

Gollum was not happy; he was incapable of happiness. He was miserable in all senses of the word. It is true that he did not want to live within any kind of society; the ring had unfortunately robbed him of that ability and desire. The best we can say about him is that he had attained a kind of contentment in his underground cavern, and although it was by the ring that he was kept alive, he seems not to mind (being alive, that is). That is the best we can say about his state of life enjoyment. The only time he experiences joy is when he is able to exert some form of control (catching a fish, for instance). He also does experience some satisfaction when he proves himself helpful to Frodo. It is still Gollum -- he is simply working within the universal social code as he remembers it form his days as Smeagol. His goal is still always to eventually get the Ring, though.

Gollum and Smeagol are inseparable. So although Gollum desired to eat Bilbo, that small part of him from his past ("Smeagol") is happy to see him, and that is why he insists on the riddle contest. That small part of him misses having another being with whom to tell riddles (akin to his relative contentment when he is accompanying Frodo). Yes, he plans to eat him anyway, which means to me that it is still Gollum who is "at the helm" here so to speak. They are one and the same, but Gollum allows the Smeagol part to surface, probably a very painful thing for him to do, because it reminds him of "things" and causes him to come too close to being cognizant of what he was and how the choice he made so long ago has caused his current state of being. One cannot just wave away arguments with "Oh, that was Smeagol doing that." Smeagol no longer exists, but Gollum remembers Smeagol, and allows himself to become Smeagolish for a while when he is interacting with hobbits. That's my take on it.

[cassiopeia]

I found an interesting quote from the Letters of JRR Tolkien that, I believe, pertains to this discussion:
...I think he [Gollum] would have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake, and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
Now, surely this shows Gollum cares for Frodo, at the very least. He shows compassion, and as far as I am aware, animals don't feel that way. Wouldn't the instinctive thing for Gollum to do would be to take the Ring and push Frodo into Mount Doom? Tolkien certainly didn't think so.

[Sheeana]

This (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4419&perpage=20&highlight=Could%20destroy%20ring&pagenumber=4) thread goes into some detail on Gollum's ability to destroy the ring, and consequently save Frodo if he'd had time.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
gwaimir are we speaking for the evolutionists again? ;)


Well, a number of the evolutionists tha tI have known believed that mankind is above animals. :p

You really do hate him, don't you, Elfhelm? :D You seem to be blatantly choosing to ignore the fact that Tolkien was very much an environmentalist. :) Either that, or using an opening to do some "proselytising" of your own. ;)

[Elfhelm]

Nope, I just hate dead metaphors. I don't mind old guys from antiquated times having outmoded ideas. I just can't stomach the species superiority complex persisting in the face of overwhelming evidence. I think it's forgivable for Tolkien to be old-fashioned, of course. But it's not forgivable for modern people to hide behind the authority of ancients who had less data.

[Psycho Kitty]

You know I really think you should have included the few sentences before that quote rather then snipping them off.

Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum [meaning gollum/smeagol] would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But ‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

so basically Tolkien points out there that IF things had been different and gollum had taken the ring successfully that the gollum portion of him would be satisfied but the non ANIMAL smeagol portion of him that Frodo had reawakened with his kindness and trust would have struggled against him to do the right thing and destroy the ring anyway. So the gollum side would have LOST in the end which would have been like a redemption after all those years for the NON ANIMAL smeagol side. He would have made the ultimate sacrifice DESPITE his animal instincts to survive. Smeagol would have realized now its too late. We are in mordor and sauron is aware of us and one way or the other he will get the ring so either die now for master or die later at the hands of cruel sauron. So despicable love WOULD HAVE over come pure animal in the end which makes sense because Tolkien was all about good and evil always being in a constant struggle against each other. But if we can start making what ifs about the end then we can do the same about the beginning and in MY world bilbo would never have found gollum to begin with and love would never have ruined everything…

hey maybe we should start a thread about what would happen if gollum had never run into bilbo. How would middle earth be different because this thread aint workin. Youre not gonna get me to think oh gollum ISNT appealing gee I guess your right. How dumb of me to be so open minded and have my own interpretation on this. Whats wrong with me. Follow the crowd and shut up psycho kitty.

Well sorry. He will always be my favorite character and I will always find a deep appeal in him. He rejects so many of the things I reject and desires so many of the strange things I desire and that everybody else seems to think are unappealing. So banish me from society please. And take away my sickening humanity and make me animal. Give me dark blinding isolation. Forever.

[Wayfarer]

And willingly would I dispense
With false accouterments of sense,
To sleep immodestly, a most
Incarnadine and carnal ghost.

Psycho Kitty, you obviously don't want to understand what anybody else is saying.

Nobody here dislikes gollum. Nobody here begrudges your admiration of him, or wants you to look down on him. The only dissagreement there is is with the reasons you have stated. Had you simply said "I want to be like gollum" there would be no controversy here today.

You have repeatedly made claims that it is impossible to support with the text. You have acted as though gollum was somehow content, at peace, even happy. He was not. You have made reference to seeing gollum as a 'pure animal'. He was not. He was a corrupt animal, and more than that he was a self-aware animal. Even his natural instincts had been twisted by the ring, robbing him of whatever simplicity his life might have had.

I can, to some degree, understand what you're getting at. When gollum and smeagol discuss what they would do with the ring, they decide that they will go to the sea and eat their fill of fish. Truly a simple thing, but it is smeagol, the good portion of his being, that desires it. Gollum desires only the ring.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
And willingly would I dispense
With false accouterments of sense,
To sleep immodestly, a most
Incarnadine and carnal ghost.



yesh i hate my epidermal dress too....

and the rags of my anatomy.

and as for gollum ok if you want to call him "the corrupted animal" then thats fine. that can work. i really think your definition of corrupted animal and my definition of pure animal are the same. so we are just really arguing over words now. but my concept remains. obviously it was the ring that made him the creature he is but thats just fine. give me the ring then and let me follow into the footsteps of his isolation and the twisting of his psyche and ill be a happy little girl. oh sorry! i wont be happy because you say i wont be happy. so i guess ill be happy in my unhappyness. hows that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
Youre not gonna get me to think oh gollum ISNT appealing gee I guess your right. How dumb of me to be so open minded and have my own interpretation on this. Whats wrong with me. Follow the crowd and shut up psycho kitty.

You're right, I'm so sorry for actually respecting the author and his vision, rather than trying to turn it into something it is not.

The above was not meant to be serious, but a demonstration that the sword swings both ways. :)

I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum [meaning gollum/smeagol] would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both.

And how do you know he meant Smeagol/Gollum? To me, the way he refers to them collectively as Gollum, despite the fact that Tolkien was quite a perfectionist states that the two are in fact inseparable. Two sides of the same coin, in a way; you cannot have one without the other.

i really think your definition of corrupted animal and my definition of pure animal are the same.

I doubt it. I believe that corrupted animal does not refer to "pure animal instinct" as you call it, but the direct result of direct corruption of a tremendously (perhaps even purely) evil Object. Gollum was a creature of Evil, not of Instinct. Would an animal which had it's bone stolen from it plot about how it would make that which the bone pay, after it had gotten it's bone back? Would it scheme and relish the thought of destroying one which it did not like? No. Animals act out of instinct, which does not include the above actions, but of which the Gollum aspect did do.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
You know I really think you should have included the few sentences before that quote rather then snipping them off.
I would have posted the other sentances, but I don't own the Letters; I was just posting what I had scribbled down in a notebook.
I think the quote boils down to whether Gollum and Smeagol are separable, and I think Gollum and Smeagol are inseparable. (See azalea's post above.)
And, Psycho Kitty, it doesn't bother me if you like Gollum, he is certainly an interesting character. You are free to have your own opinions. Nobody's disputing that.

[Psycho Kitty]

And how do you know he meant Smeagol/Gollum? To me, the way he refers to them collectively as Gollum, despite the fact that Tolkien was quite a perfectionist states that the two are in fact inseparable. Two sides of the same coin, in a way; you cannot have one without the other.

No doubt. but im just talking about one side of the coin k.


Gollum was a creature of Evil, not of Instinct.

If gollum was simply evil like the other evil creatures in the books then why did he seek out no interaction with any other living creature? why seek out total isolation? how does that further your evil designes? why wasnt he more like any of the other evil creatures? why did he fear EVERY other evil creature so much if he was just about being evil? Its because he WASNT just a simple evil character in the books. he was corrupted by the evil ring yes but he was made into this animal whos only purpose in life was to survive away from everyone else and to have his ring which was basically his drug. many drug addicts show the exact same type of breakdown from hire thinking humans to basic animal one purpose focus of life. it doesnt mean they are suddenly evil. it just means their normal focus has been broken down because of their drug. they become more animal. just like gollum.

[burnerofladles]

I have several problems with physcokitty's arguments.

but he WANTED to be alone. and gollum allowed him to survive even under what we would call such horrible conditions. but he was fine with it. he would never have wanted to live like bilbo. to be stuck in a house. with pretty flowers around. eating horrible cooked food. dealing with other hobbits. he never could have delt with that. his ideal situation WAS far away in the darkness away from everyone. thats where he could truly relax. ... dont think just because he doesnt live like you that he isnt living the way he prefers. your projecting yourself on him and hes not you. its like saying a slug must be miserable because they are always slimy. well come on. the cave was gollums ideal environment. not the sunlight. not the outside world dealing with other people. and yes gollum allowed him to survive that kinda environment better then anyone else could have.

I think it might be useful to have a little retelling of Smeagollum's (That's what I call both of them) tale here:

Smeagol went fishing with Deagol.
Deagol found the ring.
Smeagol murdered Deagol because he wanted the ring.
Smeagollum continued to live amongst his family, using the ring to spy on them, until his grandmother cast him out because he was causing lots of trouble.
Smeagollum wandered for a while, until he found the mountains to get away from the sun and the moon - and because he thought he would find deep, great secrets in their roots.
Smeagollum gradually morphed into Gollum, with the occasional hint of Smeagol.
Bilbo gets the ring.
Gollum goes in seach of the ring.

He did not choose to leave. He was cast out by his grandmother, because he used his new powers of invisibility to spy on his family, and caused much trouble.
He went to the mountains to escaoe the sun and moon. He wanted the darkness. He thought the mountains would have secrets he could find out.
The ring destroyed him. It ate at him. There's a bit where it says that at first he could not bear to have it not with him, then that he could not bear to have it away but couldn't bear to have it touching him, and then he could not bear to have it with him, but he couldn't leave it alone.

Does this sound like a relaxed, content existance?

But I think the most telling bit is:
"He hated and loved it, as he hated and loved himself."
(something like that, don't have the exact quote.)

How can someone who hates themself have a contented existence.

Smeagol and Gollum do not exist independatly of each other, they are each other and always will be. You cannot have Gollum without Smeagol.

[Psycho Kitty]

so then is your argument that being alone in the caves was the worse situation for him? and that he should have lived like a silly little hobbit all happy and social? which situation do you think would have allowed him to relax more? he would have been tortured by the ring either way. i say he WAS more content in the caves and the darkness alone and far away from everyone then he ever could be in any other situation. i say without interference from the hobbit baggins he would have remained like that unless saurons little minions had finally caught up to the ring before a war had destroyed the evil forces on middle earth. you very well could have had a big war where no ring was involved and it was assumed lost by both sides. and gollum would have it all the time.

[azalea]

Well, you COULD live as an unsocial hobbit hermit, but that's beside the point, I know.:)
Your post got me thinking that maybe Gollum didn't seek out others or ever try to go back in part because way deep down he knew that by interacting he would end up killing again and didn't want that (the Smeagol part, if you wish). I don't know, it's just a thought. I tend to think of characters optimistically.

[Elfhelm]

Naw! As a puppet and slave to the Ring, he went underground because the Ring wanted him to, that's all.

[Sheeana]

I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again - Tolkien thought that Smeagol could be redeemed - which implies that Smeagol wasn't happy with being an outcast, and a loner.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by azalea
Well, you COULD live as an unsocial hobbit hermit, but that's beside the point, I know.:)
Your post got me thinking that maybe Gollum didn't seek out others or ever try to go back in part because way deep down he knew that by interacting he would end up killing again and didn't want that (the Smeagol part, if you wish). I don't know, it's just a thought. I tend to think of characters optimistically.

ya ive noticed.

i dont think it was just about wanting to avoid killing. i mean he still killed goblins and would be more then happy to kill other things that happened to stumble into his den. maybe MAYBE there was some lingering subconcious thing going on there but i think the main motivation was just to get away from bothersome annoying people and be alone in a dark sanctuary where all he had to deal with was himself and this glorious and horrible ring. but it was all his. and thats all that mattered to him.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Naw! As a puppet and slave to the Ring, he went underground because the Ring wanted him to, that's all.

no he went underground because that was the logical place to go. why do you think the ring would want him to go underground and away from the world? what would be the benefit to the ring? i always thought the ring wanted to be found so it could get back to its rightful master. volunteering to be hidden away for generations wouldnt help do this. why not leave gollum like it did with Isildur? why not just slide off his finger and roll away? why wait all that time THEN do it when bilbo showed up? i think this opens up much deeper questions about the whole duality of evil and fate that most people dont even think about but that makes the books even more interesting.

[Elfhelm]

It waited for Sauron to recover. It may even have called Bilbo, because it knew that Gollum wouldn't come out from the cave on his own. Still, I think it was the Ring that drove Gollum down there, and he obeyed like a whipped puppy.

[Eomer]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
This is carried over from the "Who are you in ME?" thread, where PsychoKitty seemed to think that Gollum lead a happy, contented life, and also that he was right to take the Ring from Déagol. This is where we can debate that! *maniacal laughter* Excuse me. I love debate.


But the Ring was not his. Déagol found it, it was for Déagol to decide what to do with it. All the laws of honesty support me.


I doubt it. Déagol was a primitive little Stoor, do you think he would even have the strength to turn it in to anyone else? He would almost certainly have kept it for himself, eventually becoming like Gollum, though probably not quite as twisted.


He might be if he had 'hidden it away' for good purposes. But we know the Ring had corrupted him at that point. He desired only to possess it and keep it safe. ('Safe' meaning belonging to him.)


So Gollum was right to murder his best friend?



How can you saw Gollum did best?
if he had let Deagol have it and give it to the "Elders". it would have been found by the forces of good even before Sauron started to mass his forces.

[Eomer]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
no he went underground because that was the logical place to go. why do you think the ring would want him to go underground and away from the world? what would be the benefit to the ring? i always thought the ring wanted to be found so it could get back to its rightful master. volunteering to be hidden away for generations wouldnt help do this. why not leave gollum like it did with Isildur? why not just slide off his finger and roll away? why wait all that time THEN do it when bilbo showed up? i think this opens up much deeper questions about the whole duality of evil and fate that most people dont even think about but that makes the books even more interesting.


the ring wanted him to go underground because then
it can wait for sauron to gather strength and mass forces.
Gollum did it because he did not like the sun or moon, he went underground to hide from his shameful life. it was both Gollum and the ring that wanted to go underground.