The trouble with fantasy...

[IronParrot]

... is that it's so hard to pick out anything truly original nowadays.

It seems to me that the fascination with the Middle Ages has been bled utterly to death. Most of the fantasy on shelves today may have a few original ideas scattered here and there, I grant, but they are generally a rehash of the same thing. They can all be traced back to a number of key influences, and it wouldn't be such a big problem if these weren't the same key influences over and over and over.

Arthurian legend is a biggie. Kings, mystical swords, platemail, Merlin-esque wizardry, castles, a very English monarchy, quests for holy grails and the like - it's been done. Again. And again. There are also influences like Beowulf, the Greek and Norse mythologies, even the Brothers Grimm... my point is, it's one thing to allude to similarities, but rehashing it all is completely different.

I also blame Tolkien, in a way. See, Tolkien did it right: he took those ancient mythical influences and created an entire world, and upon it he built a unified story. His world was a mix-and-match of old England and really old England, and brought mythical concepts of Elves, Dwarves and the like back into the limelight.

But now you have all these writers who try to create their own worlds, and hardly add anything significant to them. Even more dangerous is when they get sucked into exploring every facet of that world, and aim for vastness at the expense of story and focus. Episodic series fiction proliferates in overwhelming abundance. They create silly names that make no sense due to their lack of a systematic linguistic framework or understanding, something that Tolkien had but few others possess.

So much fantasy literature today is just a theme and variations on swords and sorcery. Doesn't "fantasy" imply "originality"? In terms of being original, "world creation" does not go far enough.

I don't consider myself a fantasy fan by any standard. I don't like the genre. However, most of my favourite books belong to it. Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass are prime examples of creativity in escapism. Baum's Oz books painted on a traditional background of kingdoms and magic, but he used a diverse palette of characters and settings that went far beyond the trappings of the fantasy genre's roots. The Princess Bride took the traditional archetypes and made fun of them ruthlessly and charmingly, which is perhaps why I enjoyed it so much. My favourite contemporary fantasy world in literature is by far that of Harry Potter, with its ministerial bureaucracies and modern re-imagining of old magical ideas.

Outside of literature, Star Wars is a perfect example of what I'm talking about here, in terms of originality in fantasy. It takes the traditional themes and ideas of everything from Tolkien to Japanese samurai legends, and places them in a completely different setting that had never been explored before in the context of these themes. It basically took settings and elements from the interplanetary worlds of Buck Rogers and Star Trek and the like, typically reserved for science fiction, and replaced sci-fi with mythical fantasy. It's no wonder it was such a success - and, like Tolkien, spawned so many lame clones (the Star Wars "literature" being the prime example, ironically).

There are other works that, while not among my favourite novels, are at least indicators of where fantasy should ideally be headed. C.S. Lewis' Narnia is a decent example, and it's perhaps no coincidence that the stronger books of the series (Wardrobe, Caspian and Dawn Treader, in my opinion) don't fall too far into the trappings I mentioned earlier, while The Horse and His Boy does. Cooper's The Dark is Rising turns Arthurian legend on its head, and is admirable for that.

Redwall is a good example as well, though in terms of animal personification, I vastly prefer Horwood's Duncton Chronicles, a mole's-eye-view of England that was a universe of its own, full of creative takes on religion and politics in its own right.

All of these works I've mentioned have a number of key things in common - namely, they're not Tolkien/Arthur/Grimm/Beowulf ripoffs, nor do they rely too heavily on outlandish names, nor do they put a lot of emphasis on world creation while forgetting to make that world original and interesting. Literature should not be a game of Dungeons & Dragons.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Why do I have the distinct feeling that this was spawned by reading my posts?

[IronParrot]

No, this is something I've meant to say for a long, long time. Perhaps before I ever came to Entmoot.

[Wayfarer]

It's not just fantasy.

In the information age, we have the ability to proliferate fiction on a scale completely unheard of even 50 years ago. I consider myself an exceptional reader- I've gone through as many as three novels a day for weeks at a time. And yet, for every book I managed to read, several more were published in that same period of time.

There's so much out there that it's inconceivable that even a fraction of it could be truly new and exciting. We're constantly inundated by endless iterations of unoriginal themes. Fantasy, Scifi, Suspense, Drama, every genre has become overdone, to the point where the struggle of the writers is to find something that's not already cliche. Most often, they fail.

[IronParrot]

Ooh, don't get me started on sci-fi. Ugh, whatever happened to it?

And I'm not claiming that fantasy is alone in terms of having a high percentage of material not worth reading. I'm just criticizing fantasy specifically because it has gradually become formulaically synonymous with knights, kings, sorcery, magic artifacts, Elves, Dwarves, and silly names. That, to me, is a genre-specific problem.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by IronParrot
I'm just criticizing fantasy specifically because it has gradually become formulaically synonymous with knights, kings, sorcery, magic artifacts, Elves, Dwarves, and silly names. That, to me, is a genre-specific problem.

And that's why fantasy has such a terrible reputation. The reason people laugh at Tolkien is not because they necessarily find it funny, but because when it's the fiftieth book about Elves you've seen in ten minutes walking round a bookshop, it doesn't stand out as different. I can't tell most of the fantasy books being published today apart - they all have those lurid colours with pictures of castles and dragons on the front and a list of unpronounceable names on the back. Perhaps if there was a way of controlling the numbers published, it would be easier to distinguish quality. But they must sell...

By the way, this is not a criticism (rant?) about anything I've read on Entmoot. Just fantasy in general :)

[Aralyn]

uh huh sure, we know what you mean:D

I agree IP. It's so hard to find a good fantsay or (i will say it) sci-fi book. Now that I've read Tolkien a billion times I can recognize used and worn out plots. You know?

[Elbereth Gilthoniel]

I'm not talking as someone who read so much ( I'm not 16 yet), and I'm not tierd of fantazy but the thing that I like in those books are not the world itself (good world really helps ut it is not all) but the charachters that in the book.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Elbereth Gilthoniel
I'm not talking as someone who read so much ( I'm not 16 yet), and I'm not tierd of fantazy but the thing that I like in those books are not the world itself (good world really helps ut it is not all) but the charachters that in the book.

I'm not 16 (presumably) yet either! I'm not tired of fantasy either, having barely read many of those really 'popular' books.
The characters need to be interesting, but I think the world needs to be done exceptionally - original, deep etc. For plausibility and interest.

[johnnyrod]

It's true that there are shelves of utter crap in the book shops these days, I prefer SF lately and I know what you mean, there's no story, just a load of geeky pseudo-scientific garbage. The Trekkies didn't like that when I put it to them... but it's true. Even some of the better fantasy books still cling onto things like Tolkein's east/west split.

[markedel]

That's why I only stick to a few authors. I like to find writers who's writing style I enjoy and go from there.

The again I'm a devoted Harry Turtledove fan and he writes incredibly long, commericalized series. I suppose that's no matter then slogging through the wheel of time.

[Raistlin]

this is in reply about sci-fi and how it's alike. me and a few friends have came upon a strange hypothesis; sci-fi follows the times and the problems of that time period and puts it in to the worst possible scenario. for example the core we're all afriad the wolrd ending and in the movie it does, in the fifties xmen was popular and that is based the nuclear scare and mutation. if you look the sci-fi books release date and think you can see the connection.

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by johnnyrod
It's true that there are shelves of utter crap in the book shops these days, I prefer SF lately and I know what you mean, there's no story, just a load of geeky pseudo-scientific garbage. The Trekkies didn't like that when I put it to them... but it's true. Even some of the better fantasy books still cling onto things like Tolkein's east/west split.

I consider myself to be a mild trekkie, and I'd have to say that I disagree with you. At least in the television series and especially TNG (my favorite) the appeal is not in the action or supposed technology or technical jargon. All of that is a mask. It is a set created to explore the possibilities and outcomes of many moral and social issues. I can say this because I have never endeavored to learn Klingon or anything like that. The appeal is in the situations of the actors, which especially in TNG I consider to be excellent.


Originally posted by Raistlin
this is in reply about sci-fi and how it's alike. me and a few friends have came upon a strange hypothesis; sci-fi follows the times and the problems of that time period and puts it in to the worst possible scenario. for example the core we're all afriad the wolrd ending and in the movie it does, in the fifties xmen was popular and that is based the nuclear scare and mutation. if you look the sci-fi books release date and think you can see the connection.

I agree. One book that comes to mind for me is "Shardik" by Richard Adams. I consider it a good fantasy novel. Not specifically by Iron Parrot's standards, but by yours, Raistlin. It is a story shaped out of a somewhat fantasy world, with shamanism and cultural ritual. I'd say that it is more of an exploration of society and cultural custom. The fantasy aspect is very subtle, but I think that is what makes it interesting. Like many great fantasy and sci-fi nowadays, the actual world only serves as a fragile shell to what is really there. In which case books of these genres are becoming more and more philosophical in regard to themes, and IMO that is the direction that the good fantasy and sci-fi novels are taking.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Anglorfin
[B]The appeal is in the situations of the actors, which especially in TNG I consider to be excellent. I agree with that whole-heartedly... watching Data learn the meaning of humanity, or Worf struggle with his Klingon ties, was always more interesting than watching space battles or listening to technobabble being shouted across the bridge.

Your comments on bad fantasy/sci-fi reminded me of an especially good example: Frank Herbert's Dune. (Not sure if it counts as fantasy or sci-fi; it can arguably fit into either category). I'm reading the first book right now and am impressed. Herbert takes elements of Islam and ancient Rome and Asimov-esque "Space Guilds" and puts them together in a configuration that actually makes sense. More importantly, the worldbuilding only supports characterization and plot rather than overshadowing it.

I just hope that the later books don't disappoint me, as can be said for so many series.

[Anglorfin]

That is another series that I promised myself I'd read one day. My dad used to have all the books but I think they were so old they fell apart.

[elf queen]

I agree but I still love it!!!:D

[Estel13]

Originally posted by IronParrot
Ooh, don't get me started on sci-fi. Ugh, whatever happened to it?

And I'm not claiming that fantasy is alone in terms of having a high percentage of material not worth reading. I'm just criticizing fantasy specifically because it has gradually become formulaically synonymous with knights, kings, sorcery, magic artifacts, Elves, Dwarves, and silly names. That, to me, is a genre-specific problem.

No, please, what's wrong with sci-fi?:confused:
However, I do agree with you on the fact that both Harry Potter and Redwall are very well written. Most of what I read is either Science Fiction or Fantasy. But, yeah, the silly/odd names get me sometimes too.:rolleyes:
And galadriel, maybe if you tried to understand the so-called "technobabble", you'd enjoy it more.:eek:

[Anglorfin]

The thing with sci-fi is that if it gets too caught up in the techno-babble then it is no good unless there is a REALLY good story behind it and it catpures your attention long enough for you to grasp and understand the techno-babbley stuff while watching it and enjoying it. Sadly a lot of sci-fi is now just feeble attempts at this great art.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Estel13
And galadriel, maybe if you tried to understand the so-called "technobabble", you'd enjoy it more.:eek: Oh, but I *do* enjoy technobabble. Half of the fun of watching Star Trek is dissecting the pseudo-science and discussing it with nerdy friends.

Ultimately, however, technobabble needs to contribute to the plot itself, or the show gets boring even to us sci-fi fans. Sure, holodecks are cool, but they're not merely cool because of the cool lingo and special effects. They're fun because interesting things happen in them that affect plot and character in unexpected ways. *That's* what makes good science fiction.

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by galadriel
Oh, but I *do* enjoy technobabble. Half of the fun of watching Star Trek is dissecting the pseudo-science and discussing it with nerdy friends.

Ultimately, however, technobabble needs to contribute to the plot itself, or the show gets boring even to us sci-fi fans. Sure, holodecks are cool, but they're not merely cool because of the cool lingo and special effects. They're fun because interesting things happen in them that affect plot and character in unexpected ways. *That's* what makes good science fiction.

Agreed :D :D

[Raistlin]

i loved dune and how it buts things together. i have seen a few connections with movies and different books (how they can tie together) the best example is with the termanator series, the matrix and dune. i can't believe some one can't see the connection with it

[Melko Belcha]

Fantasy can get repetitive, especialy Epic Fantasy, it is either a Tolkien clone are tries to hard not to be like Tolkien. The only series that have stood out to me as being original is A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin and Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams. Both of these series I love as much as Tolkien, but they are very different from his work.

[Azhei]

it can get repetitive at times but over all it is interesting if you want to get into repetion go into romance novels

[goldiegollum]

I was skimming through this and wondered about the names part. exactly what is a silly name and do you have to make up an entire language to have the authority to name people anything beyond "sarah" or "Katherine", or other such names of today? If so that would make me (as an author) sad. Ex: Is Mira a silly name, or Tiskrat? :(

[Wayfarer]

Well, I'm not sure what IP means about silly names. After all, Tolkien himself did start off by using things that he thought sounded nice, and then assigned meanings from there.

One of the things that does annoy me is how many authors snitch bits of Tolkein languages for use in names and never give credit to the author of said languages... :mad:

[Bilbo]

I hate to sound like a critic, but there are somethings that other authors have done that Tolkein has not.
They have created characters you can relate to!
In other Sci-Fi books, especially Terry Pratchet, I can find a certain link with the characters. In the Tolkein books none of the characters can I relate to. YEs they have presonality, yes they have hobbies and likes, but they don't seem to come across what happens to us on a daily basis, like embarrassment, humor and dread.
Tolkein has good stroy lines, but he writes it from a perspective where you can't understand what the characters feel. Exactly what kind of dread does going into Moria give Gandalf? Why does Sam want to go into Mordor alone?
Other authors put in feelings and thoughts, but Tolkein writes like its a bible. Good story, but no personalities.

[brownjenkins]

originality is rare, in any genre... and everyone borrows a lot, especially from the classics (of which i believe tolkien is one)... just look at how much shakespeare has inspired... and even some of his themes came from older sources

some of the lesser-known original fantasy novels i have read and enjoyed:

Roger Zelazny (not the most talented author in terms of pure writing talent, but full of original concepts):

first set of Amber Chronicles (his much later second series was kind of lacking)

Jack of Shadows (a kind of sci-fi/fantasy crossover... interesting because the hero is basically an evil person, yet hard to not love)

Lord of Light (one of the few fantasy books that really touches upon religious beliefs)

Stephen Donaldson:

The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through (very original ideas and much lighter than his covenant series)

i also enjoy H.P. Lovecraft and Anne Rice, both of which i would consider "fantasy" authors

gg - i knew a mira and tiskrat is a perfectly fine name, though it makes me think of something that waits under your bed till the lights are out ;)

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Bilbo
I hate to sound like a critic, but there are somethings that other authors have done that Tolkein has not.
They have created characters you can relate to!
In other Sci-Fi books, especially Terry Pratchet, I can find a certain link with the characters. In the Tolkein books none of the characters can I relate to. YEs they have presonality, yes they have hobbies and likes, but they don't seem to come across what happens to us on a daily basis, like embarrassment, humor and dread.
Tolkein has good stroy lines, but he writes it from a perspective where you can't understand what the characters feel. Exactly what kind of dread does going into Moria give Gandalf? Why does Sam want to go into Mordor alone?
Other authors put in feelings and thoughts, but Tolkein writes like its a bible. Good story, but no personalities. I've heard lots of people complain about that. I agree that Tolkien is not a psychological book. All of his characters are psychologically consistent and believable, but we rarely get to see into the very deepest workings of their minds.

Instead, we get themes. For me, the enormous, universal, and very poignant (and very human) themes contained in Tolkien's works make up for a lack of strong psychology. The sadness of the Elves, the greed of Mordor, and the tenacity of Men all create situations that are as captivating as characters, and help us to picture mental processes that Tolkien does not explicitly state. Instead of falling in love with a character, we fall in love with a world.

Of course, this is a matter of taste. Some people need the strong personal connection to buy into a novel. Others are bored by psychology and prefer widescale drama. I just happen to like both.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Bilbo
I hate to sound like a critic, but there are somethings that other authors have done that Tolkein has not.
They have created characters you can relate to!
In other Sci-Fi books, especially Terry Pratchet, I can find a certain link with the characters. In the Tolkein books none of the characters can I relate to. YEs they have presonality, yes they have hobbies and likes, but they don't seem to come across what happens to us on a daily basis, like embarrassment, humor and dread.
Tolkein has good stroy lines, but he writes it from a perspective where you can't understand what the characters feel. Exactly what kind of dread does going into Moria give Gandalf? Why does Sam want to go into Mordor alone?
Other authors put in feelings and thoughts, but Tolkein writes like its a bible. Good story, but no personalities.

I understand what you are saying, but for me it is different. I like not getting into the characters heads because it allows your imagination to form what they are thinking. In too many books the thoughts of the main character is to in depth and there is almost nothing that you do not know about the character, and if you do not like the character then it makes it hard to get into the story, no matter how good the story is.

It's all a matter of personal taste, but for me the less I know about what is going on inside the mind of the character the more my imagination is allowed to roam free. Plus it allows people to see the characters in there own way, other then the author telling you what the character thinks in every situation, it allows you to imagine what the character is thinking, which might be completely different then what I am thinking, and we both finish the story with a different impression of the characters in our heads.

[Raistlin]

you have all made valid points but i think i will have to go with whoever said something about the personal connection.

i have to have that or else the book is kinda dead to

[Attalus]

I think any genre which is very popular, like Fantasy is now, will attract different levels of talent. Mystery stories are no different: a few good ones, lots of dreck.

[Attalus]

Oh, and I forgot that there are quite a few devotees of G.R.R. Martin fans that insist that his stuff is quite good. Never could get into it, myself. Gordon Dickson's Dragon Knight books are still being written and are quite original and well-written, IMHO. The latest is The Dragon and the Fair Maid of Kent.

[Bilbo]

I notice that nobody has called me a critic yet.

The main problem that I was trying to convey is that Tolkein is more like an atheist bible than an actual story. In the bible the true feelings of the people involved are never mentioned, but evry important part of their daily lives is.
The Silmarilion is the best example of this. It starts with the creation of Middle Earth, like the old testiment. It is not a story as such, but a recollection of an event.
The Tolkein books are also like the bible, in that they are believable, but do not seem like real life. Nobody ever knew how Moses felt when he recieved the Ten Commandments. Our belief tells us that it happened, but when we compare it to real-life, it doesn't seem real.
I don't want to sound like a non-religious person, because I'm not. I am just mentioning that Tolkein's books should be respected like the Holy Bible, but the problem is that there is going to be LOADS of arguements over it.

[brownjenkins]

Bilbo <--- tolkien critic!!!

is that better ;)

you have a good point though, the silmarillion is especially biblical, or maybe mythical, like the bible, the eddas, the oddessy, etc.

i would argue the LoTR is actually a lot more personal, we see a lot about the characters motivations, feelings and personalities outside of the quest... i think the problem some may have is that it is much more "G-rated" as opposed to something like G.R.R. Martin's work, but i don't think this lack of a dark side in every good character makes it less real... at least i hope not

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by Bilbo

I don't want to sound like a non-religious person, because I'm not. I am just mentioning that Tolkein's books should be respected like the Holy Bible, but the problem is that there is going to be LOADS of arguements over it.



Hahahaha I like that. "Respected like the Bible". :)

Anyway, I know where you are coming from. Just as long as there are two human beings to share their opinions, they will disagree about something. But I think part of the fun of the Tolkien story and why his characters are strangely endearing is the anonimity of their actual thoughts. We get strong feelings about a character's motives even though Tolkien never delves into their mind for a first person perspective. A good example would be Boromir. When we read about him we are looking at him through the eyes of one of the other members of the Fellowship, not through his own. And that is enough to put us on the same level as other characters in that world, which means that we will be wary of Boromir but for the moment still trust him as a naturally good ally.

[Human#3.141592653]

Every one has read their fair share of bad fiction out there; it is, sadly, completely unavoidable. You go into your local book boutique and pick up a copy of randomly recommended text, go home, get comfy, and promptly go into the bathroom to vomit.

Never fear though! There are some useful uses for bad fiction and here are just a few:

Resale! A bad book once bought and thumbed is never worth the price you paid, however. Many a independent book retail outlet will buy your old copy for a fraction of the cost or give you store credit. Plus, this little excursion gets you up and out of the house and into yet another book store and all the fragrant odors there of.

Donations! Failing to be able to resell your bad book, you could always give it away, as in for free! There are many charities out there that accept book donations, such as the Fund for Armless Legless Goatless Orphans of Peru or the blind.

Kindling! If your bad book is returned by the Orphans of Peru, do not be discouraged. Simply get creative! What's better than a roaring fire on the hearth in the middle of winter? and your bad book can add to the fun! Share some hot cocoa with loved one while watching the pages turn black and peel away. It's functionality and revenge all in one!

Door stop! If your bad fiction refuses to burn try using the stubborn novella, use it to prop open a door, level out a table leg or, my personal favourite, a paperweight! As a paperweight, you can spend hours of fun doodling mustaches and "mother" tattoo’s on the busty elvish princesses and ill-tempered dragons.

[ArwenEvenstar]

I noticed that in a book a got for Christmas (I think it's called Stronghold by Melanie Rawn) that there is a actually a guy called Rohan and a place called Gilad. It's not a bad read but that really bugs me! G.R.R. Martin is a good example of originality and intelligence (except for his eating habits, the guy is HUGE!) in writing, also Terry Pratchett, I've only read three of the Discworld books but he's one of my favourite authors!

[Jabberwock]

I've been burned out on fantasy before. It sucks. You have to find a way to inject the wonder back into the literature. I found the best way to do that is to quit looking forward to the next big writer or next big series, and take the road not often traveled by fantasy fanatics. Stop reading epics. Stop reading authors who are popular now. Go to used book stores and pick up tons of cheap and moldy old fantasy like Lord Dunsany. Get his short story collections, like the Pegana stuff. Stories like Sword of Welleran and Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth are really inspiring, in a fantasy sense, and filled with that wonder we all want in our books. Read them. He and people like William Morris, J B Cable, and E R R Eddison created the genre and were amazing writers. Dunsany, though his longer fiction is kind of lacking, could tell a tale with language that simply amazed. Read folklore too. Do a little tour of the history of fantasy that existed before Tolkien. The worst that will happen is that you'll learn something of where the genre came from. Old writers of fantasy, particularly their shorter works rejuvenate me. Wading through 6000 pages of a modern fantasy epic, only to discover its not over, should burn a person out. Think of the number of shorter fantasy books and stories you can read in that space of time. I guarantee you'll end up with a feeling of satisfaction, rather than a feeling of frustrated anticipation which is so common today.

[brownjenkins]

i'm a huge fan of folklore and mythology... most people don't realize how much there is out there besides the classic greek/roman/egyptian thing

almost every society that has ever existed has a wealth of "fantasy"... it's the oldest form of storytelling know to humanity

[Jabberwock]

Word BrownJenkins!