Suite101 article: Ferthu Theoden Hal!

[Michael Martinez]

If you've ever wondered what was so special about Theoden, there may be an answer to your question. We can study the world in which Theoden lived to learn a little more about him.

www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien (http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien)

www.suite101.com/article....kien/49877 (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/49877)

[Ghost of Gilthalion]

This was another good essay, one that enriched my understanding of the culture of Rohan.

This link ought to work, there is a coding error in the links provided in your post.
Suite101 article: Ferthu Theoden Hal! (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/49877)


I had a question about the following question:

...there is an incongruity between Eowyn's obvious martial education and the facts of the story presented in The Two Towers. Why didn't Theoden think of Eowyn when he needed to appoint someone to govern the people of Edoras when he rode to Helm's Deep?

You go on to provide some thoughtful considerations of the idea of the Rohirrim shieldmaiden as part of a cultural renaissance led by Theoden. This provides an excellent context for why Theoden did not think of Eowyn as a leader, or perhaps consider the trained shieldmaiden to actually be a warrior/leader. He had to be prompted.

I don't disagree with this (if I read it right) necessarily, especially with the context. But I've read it a little differently. This is a rough ceremonial occassion it seems to me, consistent with the Rohirric renaissance. The king rides to war. They all drink from the cup Eowyn gave Theoden, and then all the principles were gathered.

Theoden's speech begins: Behold! I go forth... and ends by questioning the assembly. The king names his heir, he asks them to name their regent. The answer is almost ritualistic as Eowyn is named to "... be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone."

Theoden's "Let it be so." is immediate.

I felt that this was more of a rough ceremony on the fly, rather than Theoden overlooking Eowyn. In Gondor, such a thing might be done with great pomp and ceremony indeed. But Rohan is more rustic. Yet it seems ceremonial to me all the same.

One could also argue that he fully expected his men to all ride and was testing their bravery and loyalty. Would one offer to stay behind?

That has simply been the impression that I've received reading this passage, it reminds me of the rough ceremonies of a rustic warrior society.

[Michael Martinez]

Sorry about the broken links. I hate it when I do that. I've fixed them now, but I appreciate your stepping in earlier.

I felt that this was more of a rough ceremony on the fly, rather than Theoden overlooking Eowyn. In Gondor, such a thing might be done with great pomp and ceremony indeed. But Rohan is more rustic. Yet it seems ceremonial to me all the same.

One could also argue that he fully expected his men to all ride and was testing their bravery and loyalty. Would one offer to stay behind?

That has simply been the impression that I've received reading this passage, it reminds me of the rough ceremonies of a rustic warrior society.

Well, I agree there was something of the ceremonial about the whole business. Analyzing the use of ceremony and tradition in Tolkien's works has occupied many a long and happy hour for me in past discussions. :)

However, I think the king honestly overlooked Eowyn in the author's mind. But your reading of the passage does make sense. Theoden could have been leading his people to name Eowyn. It might have been a way of ensuring that Eowyn was accepted by the people.

[Ghost of Gilthalion]

Well, that's just the way I read it! :) Frankly, it was otherwise puzzling to me, too, that Theoden did not himself name Eowyn. Certainly, Wormtongue had worked upon Eowyn's dissatisfaction with her role in life, and that may have stemmed in part from an actual desire of Theoden's not to see this girl, "dearer than daughter," exposed to battle needlessly.

How many times had she vainly begged the old king to let her ride with Eomer? How often did she take out her frustrations in hard martial exercise, working toward her goal and persevering in growing hopelessness?

Was she forbidden before this, to ride to battle? Or did she instead, realize that someone must stay by the King's side to counter the poisoned lies of Wormtongue? She and Eomer must have discussed such things many times. Might not Eowyn have been behind some of the old King's shrewder decisions as he slipped more deeply into the spell of dotage? How much of this dynamic was known to the people of Rohan?

Clearly, the lords of Rohan had reason to love and trust her.

We've talked before about athletic/maritial competitions in Rohan. How prominently might Eowyn have figured in these? In the cultural renaissance of Rohan, how well known were the shieldmaidens, and was Eowyn's prowess with the tools of war also known?

It seems to me also, that Aragorn's refusal to take her stemmed more from his realization of her infatuation with him and of his regard for her duties to Rohan, than from any great fear that she would be a hinderance on the field of battle. And did not "Dernhelm's" commander know the score as well? How could he have engaged in Eowyn's deception, risking the wrath of his King, if he did not have complete love, trust, and confidence in Eowyn?

I'm not really arguing for my interpretation here! These are just the questions in my mind this morning as I turn over the situation with my first cup of coffee.

I don't think that these issues raise any difficulties with your interpretation. I certainly don't have any references beyond the novels, the Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales, to dispute the notion that Tolkien had Theoden simply overlook Eowyn. He just might have, and Eomer, too!

There might have been many things at work in the old King's mind. His instant agreement with Eowyn as regent at the end of the "ceremony" may have been his quick realization that she was quite suitable for that role, and that it resolved many of his problems, not least of which was his desire to save at least his niece out of the House of Eorl, for they knew well that they were to ride hopelessly to battle. It does nicely set up the drama to come...