Theme of LotR according to JRRT

[Elfhelm]

People have posted and supported Tolkien's statement that the theme of The Lord of the Rings is the avoidance of death and the escape from deathlessness.

Now, I can see how one tiny subplot - the half-elf choice - can relate to this theme, but I don't see how the entire epic has anything to do with it.

I hope Wayfarer will be among the first to weigh in on this, and I suppose other knowledgeable folks have things to explain, too.

Can you explain what Tolkien meant by that statement?

[Melko Belcha]

Sorry that I don't have a opinion of my own, but this is the best I could find on Tolkien describing it himself.

Letters #208
As for 'message': I have none really, if by that is meant the conscious purpose in writing The Lord of the Rings, of preaching, or of delivering myself of a vision of truth specially revealed to me! I was primarily writing an exciting story in an atmosphere and background such as I find personally attractive. But in such a process inevitably one's own taste, ideas, and beliefs get taken up. Through it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not an Enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different: towards a faineant melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time.

[Elfhelm]

Mel, you also posted these two:

Letter #204

quote:
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But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for deathlessness.
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Letter #211

quote:
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It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory.
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Check the Index to The Letters of JRR Tolkien: The Lord of the Rings: Contents, author's intentions: real theme is death and immortality: if you would like to read more on it.

[Wayfarer]

Argh... Here I am.


People have posted and supported Tolkien's statement that the theme of The Lord of the Rings is the avoidance of death and the escape from deathlessness.
Now, I can see how one tiny subplot - the half-elf choice - can relate to this theme, but I don't see how the entire epic has anything to do with it.
Can you explain what Tolkien meant by that statement? No, I really can't. I can only try. ;)

I think if you look closely, you'll see that it comes up a lot- it's just not always obvious.

The ring gave bilbo unnatural long life- he speaks of feeling 'thin and stretched', and desiring 'a vacation'. He was tiring, and wanted an escape from his own deathlessness.

The elves, as well, went to great lengths to escape their own immortality. The forging of the rings had no other purpose- they allowed the elves to preserve, to 'embalm' is the term tolkien himself used, the havens of rivendell and lothlorien. The elves froze their surroundings in a state of idyllic perfection so that they would not be forced to watch the world around them change, while they, immortal, remained the same.

The tombs of the kings of of numenor, of Gondor, and the barrows of Arnor, represent the opposite attempt- the bodies were carefully preserved to keep them in some semblance of life, even after death.

And so they walk together down the ages- Elves, bound to this world which they love, yet sorrowing, growing ever more weary. Men, gifted with death, who can leave this world after a short time. Each envying the other, each seeking to escape their own fate in one way or another, often seeking the fate of the other, but seldom ever accepting the fate Eru had set before them.

[Elfhelm]

OK, I started another re-read with this theme in mind and - there it is, right there on the first page of the first chapter! OK, I'm paying attention. More on this later.

[Finrod Felagund]

Actualy I've heard that the theme of the Lord of the Rings is 'love in different modes'. So the Love of Sam Frodo, the misplacd love of Eowyn toward Aragorn, the simple rulstic love of Sam & Rosie, the books "high love story", Arwen and Aragorn, Smeagols love for the ring and for Frodo.
It's all about "Lovein different modes."

[Elfhelm]

Fin, did you find that as a quote from Tolkien himself, or was that from another commentator?

I wanted, in this thread, to explore the theme according to Tolkien. :cool:

[Wayfarer]

Yes, I'm with Elfhelm here.

I'm sick and tired of so-called 'tolkien commentators' who base their opinions on a poor or nonexistant understanding of tolkien.

Love is present in middle earth- but that is not the true theme. That is simply an aspect of Middle Earth.

[Cirdan]

It seems from MB's first Tolkien quote that he didn't an intended theme other than the one of death. The quote also implies ( or I infer) that his personal ideal and beliefs may have created passive themes. Some themes are evidently just the result of the consistent and centered views of the author. I think the loss of innocence, the faith-centered life, self-sacrifice, the corrupting effect of concentrated power, etc are all fairly evident to most readers. It almost seems from the quote that he thought it might be pretentious to claim to have included any really lofty themes.

Just speculating of course. Art being a subjective experience and all that.:)

[Linaewen]

What about things not always being what they seem? I always thought that was quite a prominent theme. Examples- hobbits, Aragorn...

[Rían]

I've always thought this one was good - from letter 183
In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I've always thought this one was good -
quote:
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from letter 183
In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour.
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It's just not enough to make a bold statement and feel smug. Tolkien should have supported it with examples from the book.

I don't see it. I think when he started to feel his mortality, he saw death as a theme, and when he was feeling religious he would say it was about God's sole right to divine honour.

I think it was about the abuse of power and man's desire to evict those who want to tell us how to think and how to act right off the face of the earth. Yay! Go Tolkien! Rebel against Theocracy! At least that's how I feel today. Tomorrow it could be about how everyone is supposed to dance in the light of Eru's love.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
It's just not enough to make a bold statement and feel smug. Tolkien should have supported it with examples from the book.

What????

Is the first sentence about me or Tolkien? and why should an author support a statement he made in a letter about his own work with examples from the book he wrote?

[Elfhelm]

What follows is a very stupid answer that I regret making. Please skip the rest of this post.

Why should an author in the role of critic be required to support his brash statements? Because we have academic standards.

I'll just throw one example out there. Rimbaud on his deathbed gave people to believe all his poetry should be destroyed. Sorry, but it's too late.

Maybe Tolkien wished he had written as Bach did, for the Glory of God, but you can't just SAY it years later and have it be true.


Furthermore, a reader in a discussion group doesn't just get to say, X is the theme because I read it in the author's letters. OK, what? Are we supposed to all just stop talking now because the truth has been handed down? That's not discussion, that's declaration.

So I'm just asking people to support their statements a little. Please?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I wanted, in this thread, to explore the theme according to Tolkien.

So why do you basically yell at other people for doing just that? :confused:

Anyway, regarding that, allow me to post the next few lines: "The Eldar abd the Numenoreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious heh would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world." The footnote says "By a triple treachery: 1. Because of his admiration of Strength he had become a follower of Morgoth and fell with him down into the depths of evil, becoming his chief agent in Middle Earth. 2. When Morgoth was defeated by the Valar finally he forsook his allegiance; but out of fear only; he did not present himself to the Valar or sure for pardon, and remained in Middle Earth. 3. When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it is to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned."

So that's what Tolkien had to say about that. I would also like to ask Elfhelm: What argument can you bring against this? What can you provide where Tolkien stated other beings to be worthy of divine honour?

P. S. That was"in all probability written in 1956", a mere two years later.

P. P. S. Considering that there was a fair amount written on this whole subject, and it seems to be fairly well-thought out, I hardly think the term "brash" is appropriate.

[Rían]

Geez, Elfhelm! I'm pretty offended by your reaction to my post :(.

Why didn't you jump on the 2 other posters who posted before me and didn't even offer a quote from Tolkien (which was perfectly fine, IMO, as this is a discussion board). Instead, you asked one of them politely if that was a quote from Tokien himself or if it was from another commentator.

All I said was "I've always thought this one was good - ", then provided a referenced quote from Tolkien's letters.

At the very least, you could have politely asked me to elaborate, or politely said you disagreed.

But you went on to say:
Furthermore, a reader in a discussion group doesn't just get to say, X is the theme because I read it in the author's letters. OK, what? Are we supposed to all just stop talking now because the truth has been handed down? That's not discussion, that's declaration.
Now what in the world gave you the idea that I even remotely suggested we were to stop talking, or that the particular quote I gave was the be-all-end-all quote for LoTR??? :confused: Again, why only me? :( :(

As YOU said, "I wanted, in this thread, to explore the theme according to Tolkien." Well, I was contributing pertinent, referenced information to the discussion, and it's pretty sad that I got jumped on like that.

And thanks, GW, for providing more info on the topic I brought up.

[markedel]

I haven't read letters but LOTR is about fading as it is the the "last fairy tale" in its truest sense.

As for the divine-God is manifest throughout the story if you read it at a certain slant. The concept of God as hidden may be inherant in Christianity-but it certainly is part of the Jewish half of Judeo-Christian tradition (no matter how much I hate the term it is useful for times like these).

[Elfhelm]

Sorry Rian. :(

I wasn't looking where I was typing. Caught up in my own rhetoric. Very lame. Sorry.

Indeed, I do want to explore Tolkien's ideas of his themes. I think I inadvertantly replied in a crossthreaded way, carried stuff from elsewhere to here. Very stupid. Sorry. :(

[Rían]

No problem, Elfhelm - thanks for the apology. :)

[WhackoJacko]

Tolkien was gay and he was looking for absolution and answers from a story where 2 gay hobbits were trying to break from the norm and social confines that was the "marriage" ring ;) ;) ;)

[Wayfarer]

But you ignore the fact that tolkiens /favorite/ story- the story of Beren and Luthien- was based on his love for his wife. Only the foolish would interpret Sam and Frodo's friendship as you have suggested.

Now take your flamebait elsewhere.

[WhackoJacko]

only the bigoted would see it otherwise lol ;)

[Rían]

Can you provide a reference for your opinion, WhackoJacko? Perhaps in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien --- NOT ? ;)

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Here's a slightly different view on the themes thing, but I hope it will add to the whole picture -

Was anyone else as interested as I was to read the parts where Tolkien says how LoTR 'wrote itself'?

From #92 - "It will probably work out very differently from this plan when it really gets written, as the thing seems to write itself once I get going, as if the truth comes out then, only imperfectly glimpsed in the preliminary sketch..."

From #163 (footnote) - "I daresay something had been going on in the 'unconscious' for some time, and that accounts for my feeling throughout, especially when stuck, that I was not inventing but reporting (imperfectly) and had at times to wait till 'what really happened' came through."

From #180 - "I have long ceased to invent ... I wait till I seem to know what really happened. Or till it writes itself."

And I absolutely love his description of how Faramir came along:
From #66 - "A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir - and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan (with some very sound reflections no doubt on martial glory and true glory): but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendicies...."

I can just picture Tolkien 'saying' to Faramir - "NOW are you done?!?!"

[markedel]

You sound like some English profs I know of.