Visualizing Middle-earth now published

[Michael Martinez]

VISUALIZING MIDDLE-EARTH, a collection of essays about J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth by Michael Martinez, is now available as a print-on-demand or eBook. The ISBN for this trade paperback is 0-7388-3408-4. People may order it at their local booksellers or directly from Xlibris.

The title will also be made available on Amazon.Com, Barnesandnoble.com, Borders.com, and other online services with a few weeks. Processing the listing for these services takes several weeks, so the book is currently available only through Xlibris.

More information about the book is available at
www.xlibris.com/Visualizi...earth.html (http://www.xlibris.com/VisualizingMiddleearth.html)

The retail price of the book is $16.00 for trade paperback and $10.00 for downloadable ebook.

Xlibris provides full information on pricing, shipping, and delivery on their Web site. They promise delivery within 4-6 weeks but are currently testing a new distribution service which may speed up delivery considerably.

Michael Martinez is the author of the popular PARMA ENDORION: ESSAYS ON MIDDLE-EARTH Web site and the topic editor for Suite101's weekly Tolkien and Middle-earth topic. He has also consulted with several companies about Tolkien and Middle-earth.

[RovingTurtle]

How accurate is it?

[Michael Martinez]

I'm afraid it won't be used for Olympic race timing, if that's what you mean. :P

Is it more accurate than a David Day book? Yes...and no. Some of the material is highly speculative. But I did make an effort to crack a Tolkien book before cranking out the text.

How will it be judged by other Tolkien researchers? I have no idea.

[RovingTurtle]

Sounds reasonable to say the least

[Shanamir Duntak]

I have much trust put in you... I believe it's really good... but for now, being a student, I don't have that cash right now.... but I'm sure Xivigg will want it!

[Michael Martinez]

As much as I would love for everyone to rush right over to Xlibris and order the book, I understand (believe me, I understand) how things are. The book won't be going "out of print" any time in the near future. It's not subject to the vagueries of the traditional market's distribution chain.

But it would (I think) make a nice holiday gift for the end of 2000 (hint, hint). :D

[Xivigg]

0] If i understand corectly i must order it. I can't find it in book store ??

[Michael Martinez]

Xlibris is a print-on-demand publishing services provider. That means they print copies of the book as they are ordered by booksellers or people who buy directly from them. Unfortunately, this means you end up paying for shipping and handling regardless of where you order it, online or at your local bookstore.

Although the ISBN is all you should need to give your bookseller, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to copy down Xlibris' information.


Xlibris trade paperbacks cost $16. They may be ordered:

by telephone:&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1-888-795-4274 x.273
by fax:&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp (215) 923-4685
by email:&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp orders@xlibris.com
by mail:&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Xlibris Corp.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 436 Walnut St.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 11th Fl.
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Philadelphia PA 19106


Once the online booksellers start listing it, I believe (but cannot promise this) they will discount the book as with other titles. Perhaps a regular bookseller will do the same, even for special orders. I don't know.

[Xivigg]

0] Thanks a lot for the info

[RovingTurtle]

Yes I plan on getting it, I'll report back on it, thanks again

[Darth Tater]

Can I get it at Barnes and Noble MM?

[Michael Martinez]

This is what Xlibris tells its authors.

Anyone can order the book through any regular bookstore. However, it's up to the individual bookstore to decide whether to handle special orders. I've never come across a bookstore that wouldn't handle them.

My book will be listed with the online bookstores sometime in November, assuming the schedule is not disrupted. These stores should include Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/), Borders (http://www.borders.com/), Barnes and Noble (http://www.bn.com/), and Books-A-Million (http://www.booksamillion.com/).

Will any of these companies stock the book on their shelves? Probably not, but Xlibris is testing an arrangement with a new distributor which may make it possible for the authors to get stocked in bookstores. How? I have no idea. They haven't explained that deal yet.

Right now, the way Xlibris handles stock, it appears that the bookstores cannot return the books, or have to comply with special conditions. This is because Xlibris is a print-on-demand publishing services provider. They don't print up thousands of copies of books and then stock them in a warehouse. They periodically collect orders and print up the books and ship them.

I've read that Barnes and Noble won't stock POD books. I don't know if that's true. But I don't think that would prevent them from doing a special order. You'll have to ask them.


Right now my promotional efforts are all online. Eventually I'll distribute flyers to SF conventions but right now I'm waiting for the online bookstores to pick up the book. Once it's added to their catalogues I think people will feel more comfortable with ordering it (at least, those people who feel comfortable with ordering books online).

I can't promise that any bookstore will ever keep the title in stock. But there is some speculation in the publishing industry that within a few years people may be able to purchase POD books directly from their local bookstores. The equipment currently costs about $250,000 (as I understand it). But as the price comes down, some stores will probably experiment with providing POD titles, paying special royalties for whatever books they print out.

This may make it possible for even small bookstores to stay competitive and profitable, as publishers will be able to create a secondary distribution channel for less profitable books, cutting their costs while retaining their sales (if not actually boosting them).

[Michael Martinez]

The book is now listed with Barnes and Noble (http://www.bn.com/) and Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/). Unfortunately, the discounted prices I was hoping for didn't appear.

Also, Barnes and Noble lists the book as "Out-of-Stock". I don't want people to think this means they cannot buy a copy through the Web site. I have been told that all print-on-demand books are listed as "Out-of-Stock" and that they are treated as special order items.

Amazon lists it as "Special Order", and promises delivery within 4-6 weeks. But this is a generic promise. Xlibris has been working on getting books shipped much sooner, and I've read reports that they are delivering books in less than 2 weeks. Your mileage may vary.

[The One Ring]

Sounds interesting.... maybe I can persuade someone to get it for me for Christmas or something.

[Finduilas]

Is it possible for you to post something like a listing of the topics in the book? I'd like to know more about it, but it's already on my wishlist.

[Michael Martinez]

Introduction
Welcome to Tolkien's Middle-earth...online
Can Middle-earth survive the commercialization of Tolkien?
What can we expect from the upcoming movies?
Garn, Garn, it's an Orc's life for me
Hey guys, how's the weather down there?
Where are the Aragorn and Arwen Web sites?
Dear Gandalf...
Would Sandra Bullock be a good Mrs. Isildur?
Tolkien's Middle-earth doesn't look like Medieval Europe
How did Tolkien actually portray the Rohirrim?
So you want to learn Elvish?
The Merchants of Middle-earth
Who were the real heroes of Middle-earth?
Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves!
Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves, Part II
Strange as news from Bree
Hobbit Tales, or Never There and Back Again
Ranger for hire: Have horse, will travel
Have a happy hobbit holiday
Exploring Tolkien's Fourth Age
Beorning questions
Love, Middle-earth Style
Just whose Middle-earth is it, anyway?
Do Balrogs have wings? Do Balrogs fly?
Understanding Magic in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth
Works cited
Web site references
Bibliography


The "Works Cited" section is actually a part of the "Understanding Magic..." essay, but I didn't catch that goof until too late.

[Finduilas]

Thanks

[emilsson]

Is it possible to get this book overseas apart from ordering through amazon.com? I find it very interesting and would love to have an ex.

[Michael Martinez]

Xlibris recently announced a UK office, and they'll be selling their American titles over there. But right now there doesn't seem to be anything on the site.

www.xlibris-uk.com/index.html (http://www.xlibris-uk.com/index.html) says they'll officially launch their services in early 2001. Although the UK site sports an online bookstore, for now it's just redirecting you to the American site. There is a little itty-bitty note at the bottom of the page which reads: "Please be aware that you are about to enter the Xlibris USA bookshop which was established in 1997. All book prices are in US dollars. Stay tuned for our Xlibris-UK bookshop, coming soon."

My guess is that until Xlibris-UK offers the titles on its own, Amazon.Co.Uk and other European booksellers won't be able to offer them as a local supplier.

[emilsson]

Thanks a lot for the info. As we say Sweden "the one who waits for something good never waits too long" :) .

[Valandil]

Finally went and ordered this book from a local Borders. It came in a few days ago, so I picked it up last night. It seems to largely be a collection of some of the Suite 101 articles, though I think there's some other stuff as well (have only had perusal opportunity so far :) ).

So Michael... look for another royalty check sometime soon! ;) You've sold one more copy. Are you still at work on the next book, or has it been published yet? Will more of the Suite 101 articles make it into book form?

[Twista]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez


Is it more accurate than a David Day book?


Whats everyone got against him anyways? I like his books.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Twista
Whats everyone got against him anyways? I like his books.

he has some inaccuracies... though many can be attributed to what was published at the time he did his books

i'd suggest martinez's book though... i read all the articles on suite 101... he does a great job pulling together a lot of the info throughout all of tolkien's work with an attention to detail that is unparalled by any other author's work on the subject

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Twista
Whats everyone got against him anyways? I like his books.

I don't know about "everyone". I can tell you my evaluation of his work, I wouldn't say that I'm "against" him though or even against his work.

My problems stem from the fact that Michael gets some things blatantly and patently WRONG. For example, his claim that Tolkien was not a medievalist or an Anglo-Saxonist is so off base that it is difficult to know whether to laugh or cry. His understanding and claims regarding Tolkien as a philologist are also off base, even when practioners of philology attempt to enlarge his understanding of the field and what it entails, he turns a deaf ear and prints the errors anyway. His further claims about the Rohirrim and the Scythians and other issues don't really stand scrutiny.

That's a quick summary, I could go on. That's not to say its all bad. Michael is extremely knowledgeable and is able to draw on a vast array of material and often hits Tolkien interpretation on the nose.

But that's exactly the problem. How does a reletive new comer to Tolkien who wants to read more sift through the good and the bad? So I usually recommend that the new comer read some other secondary works (in the sense that its used in the field, not in the sense that Michael uses in this book), before reading Michael. They'll probably enjoy Michael's works, and get a lot out of them, but they'll then know enough to discern what things Michael claims need further consideration before being taken as gospel and which things he says are so very on target.

Forkbeard

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
he has some inaccuracies... though many can be attributed to what was published at the time he did his books

i'd suggest martinez's book though... i read all the articles on suite 101... he does a great job pulling together a lot of the info throughout all of tolkien's work with an attention to detail that is unparalled by any other author's work on the subject

I'm not sure what you mean by many of his inaccuraces can be attributed to what was published at the time? Visualizing came out in 2000-there were a lot of very good books (and a lot of not so good ones) published on Tolkien before 2000, and as Michael cracked earlier in the thread, he did crack a Tolkien book or 2. I think his inaccruacies are his own.

Forkbeard

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
I'm not sure what you mean by many of his inaccuraces can be attributed to what was published at the time? Visualizing came out in 2000-there were a lot of very good books (and a lot of not so good ones) published on Tolkien before 2000, and as Michael cracked earlier in the thread, he did crack a Tolkien book or 2. I think his inaccruacies are his own.

Forkbeard

I think 'brownjenkins' is referring to inaccuracies by David Day. I'm not familiar enough to speak to this... I've seen a book or two of his in the store, as well as the atlas by Karen someone... (does it start with 'f'?)

[Forkbeard]

Good point....Day is one to stay away from. I don't know the atlas, never bought it, but haven't heard sterling things about it either.

Forkbeard

[Falagar]

Karen Fonstad, I believe.
I don't know about "everyone". I can tell you my evaluation of his work, I wouldn't say that I'm "against" him though or even against his work.
He meant, as Valandil pointed out, Day.

What books would you reccomend, Forkbeard?

[brownjenkins]

yep... i meant day... i believe some of his stuff is even pre-silmarillion, so the elven history is particularly off

on martinez... yes, some of his conclusions are speculative... but interesting speculation and always identified as such

he's a good mix of a purist to the material that is still willing do some speculation as well... if you've read most of tolkien including HoME, as i have... it's interesting food for thought... always taken with a grain of salt

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
yep... i meant day... i believe some of his stuff is even pre-silmarillion, so the elven history is particularly off

on martinez... yes, some of his conclusions are speculative... but interesting speculation and always identified as such

he's a good mix of a purist to the material that is still willing do some speculation as well... if you've read most of tolkien including HoME, as i have... it's interesting food for thought... always taken with a grain of salt

I'll answer both at once. Falagar, you're quite right. I didn't read carefully enough that Twista was responding to a quote about Day, not about Michael Martinez. Now I feel badly. Ah well, there ya go. I would so recommend Martinez over Day.

Re: Brownjenkins comments....you've hit on the chief problem with Michael's books---to tackle them one should not be a newbie-they are simply too speculative in some ways, too wrong in others for a newbie to really be guided correctly. Yes, I agree, they're enjoyable reads, and the speculation is fun....if you have the background to take it as speculation rather than gospel.

Back to Falagar, what books would I recommend?
Well, assuming that the reader who has just LoTR wants more (and who wouldn't) I would first point to Unfinished Tales, the Letters, and Carpenter's bio and the Sim. Yes, the Sim has some problems, but best take that on before turning to HoME I think.

From there, I would point to some older books on Tolkien: Shippey's Road to Middle Earth, Lobdell's England and Always, Tolkien and the Simarillion by Clyde Kilby, Tolkien and His Literary Resonances: views of Middle Earth by George Clark and Somebody, Tolkien: scholar and story teller edited by Robert Farrell and Mary Salu, and then finally Shippey's second book, Author of the Century.

But see the thread I started earlier today about your top 3 and bottom 3 Tolkien commentators.

Foirkbeard

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Several more interesting books are
1) Myth & Middle-earth, by Leslie Ellen Jones, and
2) Tolkien: A Celebration: Collected Writings on a Literary Legacy, ed. by Joseph Pearce
ex. of the 15 selections in it
"The Sense of Time in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings", by Kevin Aldrich
"A Far-off Gleam of the Gospel: Salvation in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, byColin Gunton
"Tolkien and C.S. Lewis: An Interview with Walter Hooper"

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
I don't know about "everyone". I can tell you my evaluation of his work, I wouldn't say that I'm "against" him though or even against his work.

My problems stem from the fact that Michael gets some things blatantly and patently WRONG. For example, his claim that Tolkien was not a medievalist or an Anglo-Saxonist is so off base that it is difficult to know whether to laugh or cry. His understanding and claims regarding Tolkien as a philologist are also off base, even when practioners of philology attempt to enlarge his understanding of the field and what it entails, he turns a deaf ear and prints the errors anyway. His further claims about the Rohirrim and the Scythians and other issues don't really stand scrutiny.

Forkbeard

Absolutely agree, as one who was over at the White Council for a couple of years- he has a fixation on minimizing the 'Northern' aspects of Tolkien's works.

Like saying that Laketown could be just as plausibly based on a Greek city-state as the pile dwellings of northern and central Europe.

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Absolutely agree, as one who was over at the White Council for a couple of years- he has a fixation on minimizing the 'Northern' aspects of Tolkien's works.

Like saying that Laketown could be just as plausibly based on a Greek city-state as the pile dwellings of northern and central Europe.

Heya GM,

I was a denizen of White Council too for a time. I kept having my posts deleted by Michael--everytime I disagreed with him, he said I was attacking him and starting a flame war. Which is silly, questioning or proving an idea false, or even in need of adjustment is not an attack on a person.

The problem with Michael's approach in this is that it means that those very people who could help him become better, help him refine his ideas and approaches through discussion in boards like this, are the very people he lumps together as "Martinez-bashers" and rejects everything they have to say. But if I may paraphrase Plato: the unexamined idea is not worth holding. Michael would have greatly benefited in his books if he had subjected his ideas to discussion rather than to proclamation ex cathedra. And it shows in his new book as well.

Forkbeard

[Fat middle]

Please, GM and Forkbeard, try to stay away from personal judgement. If you want to explain your disagreement from the content of the book that's fine, but saying that one is against a person may lead into a flame war.

Thanks :)

[Forkbeard]

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