If Finrod had not died at Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Ruinel]

We know that Finrod Felagund died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth defending Beren from the werewolf fulfilling his oath to Barahir.

But what if... he had not died in the pit? What if he had been rescued or escaped the Tol-in-Gaurhoth and returned to Nargothrond?

[Elf Girl]

Than I imagine he would eventually have gone West and married Amarië the Evil, and lived happily ever after.

:p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
We know that Finrod Felagund died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth defending Beren from the werewolf fulfilling his oath to Barahir.

But what if... he had not died in the pit? What if he had been rescued or escaped the Tol-in-Gaurhoth and returned to Nargothrond? I think that had he lived and returned to Nargothrond, Nargothrond would not have fallen as quickly, because the defensive policy and policy of secrecy by Finrod would have stayed in place. There would not have been a bridge built over the Narog, and there would not have been armies issuing forth from Nargothrond, which is how it was discovered. Orodreth was an idiot, and although he wore the crown of Nargothrond, it was Turin that ruled that kingdom. Finrod would never have allowed another to sway him so easily.

I wonder what it would have been like had Finrod survived all the ages like Galadriel did.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
...married Amarië the Evil, and lived happily ever after.
o.O *thinking* ...married Amarië the Evil and lived happily ever after. Sorry... does not compute.

No, really... would he have opened up a can of whoop ass on Curufin (who I really can't stand)?
Would he have been able to stop Glaurung?
Etc., etc., etc.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think he would have exiled the sons of Feanor, as did Orodreth.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Ruinel
o.O *thinking* ...married Amarië the Evil and lived happily ever after. Sorry... does not compute.
Well, because of her evil-ness he was forced to love her, so it makes sense.

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, really... would he have opened up a can of whoop ass on Curufin (who I really can't stand)?
Would he have been able to stop Glaurung?
Etc., etc., etc.
But hold it. Does Beren die instead of him, or do they both survive?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think he would have exiled the sons of Feanor, as did Orodreth.
I would have liked to have seen (err... read) that happen! Finrod, cleaning house, with his boot in Curufin's nacca!

Yes, I also think Orodreth wasn't the best choice for ruler of Nargothrond. He made wrong decisions! Finrod would not have done that.

{Well, I'm off for the weekend. Enjoy the new thread. I will check it when I get back. Namarië.}

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Well, because of her evil-ness he was forced to love her, so it makes sense.


But hold it. Does Beren die instead of him, or do they both survive?
Off topic: Ack! Yes, yes... he was forced to love her with the spell... but he could never truely be happy with her. The spell is like a veil covering his true feelings. Something was always there beneath the surface. Pawing at him, nagging at him... but what it was was always out of reach. And when he gazed upon Rúnyél he had feelings but did not understand them. No, no... he could never be happy with her, not him, not my precious. :eek: (OMI, I'm obsessed!)

On topic: what do you think? Do you think that if he did not die, that Beren would have? Or do you think that Beren would escape with Finrod?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Off topic: Ack! Yes, yes... he was forced to love her with the spell... but he could never truely be happy with her. The spell is like a veil covering his true feelings. Something was always there beneath the surface. Pawing at him, nagging at him... but what it was was always out of reach. And when he gazed upon Rúnyél he had feelings but did not understand them. No, no... he could never be happy with her, not him, not my precious. :eek: (OMI, I'm obsessed!)I think I'm going to throw up.

On topic: what do you think? Do you think that if he did not die, that Beren would have? Or do you think that Beren would escape with Finrod? I think that had Finrod killed the wolf without being injured, then he and Beren would both have escaped. Remember that timing had a great deal to do with it. Once Luthien showed up, that was it.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

It would've been a crying shame.....

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
It would've been a crying shame..... What would have been a crying shame?

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Ruinel
We know that Finrod Felagund died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth defending Beren from the werewolf fulfilling his oath to Barahir.

But what if... he had not died in the pit? What if he had been rescued or escaped the Tol-in-Gaurhoth and returned to Nargothrond?
If FF has survived and returned to Nargothrond, I wonder if he had taken his armies in the Fifth battle. I think it would have been very interesting if he did. Consider this for a moment:
1. Finrod's population was the largest of any Ñoldorian prince.
2. Finrod unlike Orodreth, was a wise Elf.
3. Would Finrod had the guts to go to battle and unite with the other Ñoldorian princes?

I think that the addition of the force of Nargothrond to that battle would have tipped the scales in favour of the Ñoldor.
If FF had gone to the aid of Maedhros, then when he was betrayed by Ulfang and Co, his host could have withstood this and it would have been possible the union of the east and west of the Ñoldor (Maedhros and Fingon). The Ñoldor almost won that battle, if they had the help of Nargothrond, i think they could have won, and deliver a blow to Morgoth.

If FF had gone to the aid of Fingon, then that host with the Aid of Gondolin, would have fared much better against Morgoth, and possibly have been able to help Maedhros in the east. A less strategic gamble but an important one nonetheless.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I agree. Finrod would definatly sent a great army to that battle I think. Could have made all the difference. Orodreth was a moron.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

What would have been a crying shame?

If Finrod had lived. It would've taken away the essence of sacrifice+pain for a common good, that is so important in Tolkien's works. Felagund would've felt betrayed by his people, after being driven out, unjustfully, due to the words of two malicous Elves, and their greed for the Silmaril's. It was better for him in Aman where he would be in peace, and with AMARIE :rolleyes: rather then in Nargothrond.

Would he have been able to stop Glaurung?

NO. Finrod was not super-Elf. Even pyshically, he wasn't a match for say Fingon or Maedhros though spiritually he was easily their match.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, had Finrod still ruled, Glaurung would never have been there to begin with. As I said before, the only reason that happened was because the bridge was built over Narog, and Nargothrond was no longer a secret place because armies were issuing forth. Had Finrod been there, none of that would have happened.

[Elf Girl]

It is hard to keep a secret with armies issuing forth, isn't it?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Well, had Finrod still ruled, Glaurung would never have been there to begin with. As I said before, the only reason that happened was because the bridge was built over Narog, and Nargothrond was no longer a secret place because armies were issuing forth. Had Finrod been there, none of that would have happened

I know, I was replying to a post on whether or not Finrod had enough power to withstand Glaurung.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
I know, I was replying to a post on whether or not Finrod had enough power to withstand Glaurung.

Ma Tante Andree has internet, woohooo!

Inderjit: I was not saying Finrod had special "powers". I mean could he have planned a defensive strategy that would have killed Glaurung or thwarted the attack and saved Nargothrond? Gee, I'm obsessed, not stupid. :rolleyes: But as was pointed out, no bridge would have been build over the Narog.

SGH: yeah, I agree, Orodreth was a ninny. What was he thinking? :rolleyes:

Maedhros: you've got some excellent points! *everyone stares in astonishment and says "she actually agrees with Maedhros?", yeah I do, so shut up!*

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ack! Yes, yes... he was forced to love her with the spell... but he could never truely be happy with her. The spell is like a veil covering his true feelings. Something was always there beneath the surface. Pawing at him, nagging at him... but what it was was always out of reach. And when he gazed upon Rúnyél he had feelings but did not understand them. No, no... he could never be happy with her, not him, not my precious.

Sounds like you need chains. Lots and lots of chains. Ludicrous amounts of chains.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Sounds like you need chains. Lots and lots of chains. Ludicrous amounts of chains.
:eek: What, are you Melkor in disguise or something? :eek:

[Wayfarer]

Lil' ol' me?

0:)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Lil' ol' me?

0:)
*eyeballs fake halo* yeah, you!

[Wayfarer]

*/sulks.

Not only do you need prodigous quantities of chain, I suggest a heavy dose of Valinorean wine for that attitude, missy. :p

[Rían]

I would have liked to see Finrod whup Curufin - I can't stand that Curufin creep!

[Ruinel]

Curufin is definitely a chip off the old block. He's as greedy as his old man and very self centered. Did he ever stop to think that Luthien didn't care for him? No, he didn't, nor would it have mattered. He was always out for himself. He was happy to see Finrod leave Nargothrond. All the better to take someone else's rule than have to create one yourself if the other is better. Right?

Wayfarer: I'll take the wine, but I'd have to say, Tequila is better. ;) Take the chains back to the hardware store, you won't need them.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Curufin is definitely a chip off the old block. He's as greedy as his old man and very self centered. Did he ever stop to think that Luthien didn't care for him? No, he didn't, nor would it have mattered. He was always out for himself. He was happy to see Finrod leave Nargothrond. All the better to take someone else's rule than have to create one yourself if the other is better. Right?Ruinel, I agree with you on this one.

If Finrod and Beren had survived the caves of Angband together, Finrod would still be bound by his oath to assist Beren further on his quest. Chances are he would have died on that errand anyway, only later.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Ruinel, I agree with you on this one.

If Finrod and Beren had survived the caves of Angband together, Finrod would still be bound by his oath to assist Beren further on his quest. Chances are he would have died on that errand anyway, only later.
You mean, when they disguised themselves and Luthien danced everyone to sleep?

I have to disagree. If he had survived, he would not have died later (unless you can come up with a worse case for the two of them, Beren and Finrod). What could have been worse than the attack of the werewolf? Yes, he would still be bound by the oath and would have helped Beren.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Did he ever stop to think that Luthien didn't care for him?

It was Celegorm, not Curufin who tried to marry Luthien. Curufin was married to a unkown Noldorin lady, hence his son, Celebrimbor.

He was always out for himself

One 'selfless' or in the very least 'good' act of Curufin, was that he didn't slay Eol, as he so easily could've.

The meeting between Eol and Curufin is good, since it shows (as is desirable) Curufin too often the villain (in a better and more honourable light.... HoME 11; Of Maeglin

I thgink that at what Tolkien is trying to hint on, and this could apply to the other Feanorian's as well is that Curufin's main published roles are in a negative light. We can only judge his actions that were important and after he was tainted by the oath. Do we really know what he was like in Aman?

Another selfless act of the 'gruesome twosome' ;) was the rescuing of Orodreth from Minas-Tirith

There he would have been slain, but Celegorm and Curufin came up with the riders...and stemmed the tide for a while; thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond

HoME 11; The Grey Annals

[Ruinel]

*sigh* corrected again by Inderjit. Sorry. I will direct my disdain elsewhere then. Thank you.

[Rían]

Yes, but Curufin seems to be the instigator/mastermind of the plot against Lúthien and against Orodreth ... I still think he is creepy!

Oh, I don't have HoME 11 - looks good! That IS nice to hear something good about C & C.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, but Curufin seems to be the instigator/mastermind of the plot against Lúthien and against Orodreth ... I still think he is creepy!
He still is, I'm just too worn out today to argue the point.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
It was Celegorm, not Curufin who tried to marry Luthien. Oh dear, I was thinking of the version of the Lay. There it is Curufin who desires Luthien, and Curufin was the driving force behind their evil deeds. Tolkien changed the roles of the brothers a few times. My bad. I thgink that at what Tolkien is trying to hint on, and this could apply to the other Feanorian's as well is that Curufin's main published roles are in a negative light. We can only judge his actions that were important and after he was tainted by the oath. Do we really know what he was like in Aman?My resentment of both Curufin and Celegorm is mainly because of their betrayal of Luthien, and their cowardly attack on Beren and Luthien later on. These actions can not be explained by the oath. And regarding Eöl, when did it become honourable not to slay a person who doesn't intend ill, and there is no necessity at all? In the published Silmarillion, Curufin says: "By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time." It is clearly the law that restrains him, not his feeling of honour.

[Falagar]

My resentment of both Curufin and Celegorm is mainly because of their betrayal of Luthien, and their cowardly attack on Beren and Luthien later on. These actions can not be explained by the oath. And regarding Eöl, when did it become honourable not to slay a person who doesn't intend ill, and there is no necessity at all? In the published Silmarillion, Curufin says: "By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time." It is clearly the law that restrains him, not his feeling of honour.
Ëol had hijacked one of the Noldor princesseses, and weds her partly against her will. As one remember Aredhel was a good friend of the sons of Fëanáro, thus it's not very weird that Curufin wanted to slay him.He could forsee that Ëol was going to do something bad...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ëol had hijacked one of the Noldor princesseses, and weds her partly against her will. As one remember Aredhel was a good friend of the sons of Fëanáro, thus it's not very weird that Curufin wanted to slay him.That's my point. Curufin wanted to slay Eöl, but was held back by the law only, and not by the fact that Eöl on this occasion had no ill intentions in mind. That's not very honourable imo.

This is Tolkien's words on the matter, from HoME 11, Maeglin:'Because the Eldar (which included the Sindar) were forbidden to slay one another in revenge for any grievance however great. Also at this time Eol had ridden towards Aglon with no ill intent, and it was not unjust that he should seek news of Aredel and Maeglin.'

[Inderjit Sanghera]

That's my point. Curufin wanted to slay Eöl, but was held back by the law only, and not by the fact that Eöl on this occasion had no ill intentions in mind. That's not very honourable imo.

But before your quote it is said:

Curufin could've slain Eol (as he greatly wished) and no one beyond the few men with him at his camp (who would never had betrayed him) would have ever heard it-or much mourned it

So he could've slain and got away with it him either way. Wrong or not. YET, he did not, which is in itself a sign of some honour.

My resentment of both Curufin and Celegorm is mainly because of their betrayal of Luthien, and their cowardly attack on Beren and Luthien later on. These actions can not be explained by the oath

Are you sure? Let's look at Finrod's words to Beren on Celegorm and Curufin:

And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls, and though I Finarfin's son they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need.... The Published Silmarillion; Beren and Luthien

So Celegorm and Curufin couldn’t have been that contemptuous or arrogant in Nargothrond or even before the Bragollach and in Aman to win the friendship of the Finarfians and Sindar of Nargothrond who would've had some misgivings of the Feanorians for the Kinslaying and to be a friend to Felagund in every need.

Also note the words 'But the curse of Mandos came upon the brothers', implying that the oath and curse were at work and took over all reasoning. IMO, each son of Feanor had a 'fall' in which the oath overtook their minds. Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond, Caranthir prior to the Second Kinslaying, Amrod prior to the Third and Maedhros and Maglor after the war of Wrath. (Amras was dead, as he was burned in his ship at Losgar upon arrival at Beleriand)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, but the Silmarillion also says that:

For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor, and well nigh all the east marches were taken by assault The Pass of Aglon was forced, though with great cost to the hosts of Morgoth; and Celegorm and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath, and coming at last to Nargothrond sought harbour with Finrod Felagund. Thus it came to pass that their people swelled the strength of Nargothrond; but it would have been better, as was after seen, if they had remained in the east among their own kin.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera So he could've slain and got away with it him either way. Wrong or not. YET, he did not, which is in itself a sign of some honour. [/B]Well, I seem to disagree with you on what could be called honourable. I think Curufin did what was right to do, but for the wrong reason.

So Celegorm and Curufin couldn’t have been that contemptuous or arrogant in Nargothrond or even before the Bragollach and in Aman to win the friendship of the Finarfians and Sindar of Nargothrond who would've had some misgivings of the Feanorians for the Kinslaying and to be a friend to Felagund in every need. I don't deny anything you say here. Celegorm and Curufin may have been a friend of Finrod of old, and behaved well enough on the earlier part of their sojourn in Nargothrond. But as I said, the reason I can't bring myself to like any of them is their behaviour towards Luthien and Beren. I fail to see how their imprisoning of Luthien have anything to do with the oath. They would be bound and cursed by the oath, yes, and perhaps obsessed by it, but how could the betrayal of Luthien help them to win back the Silmarils?

[Falagar]

Then Curufin looked darkly upon Eöl. 'Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me,' he said. 'For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this council I add: return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan Elmoth; for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thiter.'
He even gave Eöl a warning, which shows that he had a gift of forsight; and, at least for a while, a certain amount of wisdom.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ëol had hijacked one of the Noldor princesseses, and weds her partly against her will.
I think I need to read this part again. I'm not sure how she could be wedded "partly" against her will.

Artanis: you are a wise woman! Everytime I come here to this thread and read your responses I think, that's what I'm thinking also. :D

And I agree with Artanis. In The Sil......and Lúthien was betrayed; for they (Celegorm and Curufin) held her fast... and she was not permitted to speak with any save the brothers, Celegorm and Curufin. For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm. Thus they would advance their power, and become the mightiest of the princes of Noldor.... Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond....
They're both scum, until I read otherwise. :D

[Falagar]

I think I need to read this part again. I'm not sure how she could be wedded "partly" against her will.
from The Silmarillion
It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, (...)

[Ruinel]

"wholly unwilling?" :confused: What the heck does that mean? Either you say 'yes' or you say 'no'. After all, it is for life, right? So, she is committing her life to being with Eöl, willingly... or she was wedded against her will. I don't see any grey areas on this one. Since you've got the book and you've read it, help me understand this.

[Sister Golden Hair]

And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into his house. And there she remained; for Eöl took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.

It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years. For though at Eöl's command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon; or she might fare alone as she would, save that Eöl forbade her to seek the sons of Fëanor, or any others of the Noldor. And Aredhel bore to Eöl a son in the shadows of Nan Elmoth, and in her heart she gave him a name in the forbidden tongue of the Noldor, Lómion, that signifies Child of the Twilight; but his father gave him no name until he was twelve years old. Then he called him Maeglin, which is Sharp Glance, for he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own, and his thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mist of words.

[Rían]

I think Aredhel fell into the "at the least" category of this quote from Morgoth's Ring:The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part.
I think she just thought that she couldn't stand to be shut up in Gondolin again, and this Eol guy was kind of interesting and different, and there was a bit of "I'll show my brother he can't always tell me what to do!" mixed in there, too. So instead of a definite love match, like Tuor and Idril, there was a "oh, the heck with it!" match - willling, but yet not quite fully wanting...

[Ruinel]

Now that I read SGH's quote from the book, I recall the passage. But it had been a while since I had read it. Thank you.

hmmm... she must have been terribly bored with being cooped up to be married when she did not love him. Then I suppose it's her own fault. She shouldn't have ageed to it at all if she didn't want to be with him for life.

I recall that she leaves him with her son. But I do not recall why. I supposed she became bored with him, as she was bored with Gondolin. :rolleyes: Fickled.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Ruinel

They're both scum, until I read otherwise. :D Sing it, sister! :D:D :D