The Silmarillion: Ch. 6: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

[Earniel]

A short resume:

All three kindreds of Elves are now gathered in Valinor and thriving. Fëanor was born and after his birth his mother MÃ*riel surrendered her body and went to Mandos’ halls. Finwë remarried with Indis who gave birth to Fingolfin and Finarfin. When all three were about grown, Manwë decided to turn Melkor loose. After his release Melkor turned his hatred to the Eldar since he held them responsible for his own downfall by the hands of the Valar. So he tricked them in believing him as a friend and counsellor. Of the three kindreds especially the Noldor learned much from him.


Incomplete list of other reads on this subject:

Book of Lost Tales I , The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr
The Shaping of Middle-earth, The earliest ‘Silmarillion’, 4
The Shaping of Middle-earth, The earliest Annals of Valinor, Valian Years 2500 till 2950
Morgoth’s Ring, The Annals of Aman, Fourth Section, 1179 to 1410


Of Fëanor

In this chapter we first come up on Fëanor, one of the most influential and vital characters in Elvish history. It’s an Elf who we readers either love or hate. But how did the Elves see him? He is seemingly remembered by them as foremost the maker of the Silmarils and only then as leader of the rebelling Noldor. Since the Silmarils and the unrest of the Noldor is discussed in the next chapter I won’t touch them yet here. Yet already in this chapter we learn he is both skilled and learned.

In his youth, bettering the work of Rúmil, he devised those letters which bear his name, and which the Eldar used ever after; and he it was who, first of the Noldor, discovered how gems greater and brighter than those of the Earth might be made with skill.

One might think that his wayward character came from his unusual (at least for Elves) family situation. He grew up without his mother and with a father who adored him. He was soon presented with a stepmother. Fëanor was ill-pleased with his father’s second marriage and he didn’t really like the half-brothers he ended up with. Combined with his pride and stubbornness that spells out trouble. Though one may say in his defence that Fëanor never liked Melkor nor took his counsel.


Of Finwë

As far as my limited knowledge of Elves goes, they don’t remarry. However they don’t usually refuse to take up another body either like MÃ*riel, Finwë’s wife did. Poor Finwë was in a sad situation. His wife refused to take up her body again after the birth of one son and Finwë wanted more children (why I do wonder, I suspect Fëanor was already more than a handful even as a child ;) ).

According to the Silmarillion one might blame his remarriage with Indis for the troubles it would cause later on. But it also states that if he hadn’t remarried, history would have been denied the sons he had with Indis and a much bleaker history it would have been: no Fingolfin, no Finrod Felagund (:eek:, ;) ), no Gondolin, no Eärendil, ect… Personally I’m not so sure if Finwë’s to blame. His was a rather exceptional situation with MÃ*riel.

I wonder whether Finwë spoiled his son. He loved his son more than anything and Fëanor grew up to be a rather stubborn son. If he had been a Man I certainly would have made a connection between the last two sentences. But since Fëanor is an Elf, I hesitate. More so since Fëanor was already a rather ‘fiery’ person when he was born.

*to be continued*

[Earniel]

Of Nerdanel

Nerdanel was Fëanor’s wife. He never asked anyone counsel or help, except her. Which is rather remarkable. She was perhaps the best match he could hope to make for she was also ‘firm of will’ as was he. She was capable of restraining him when he overheated. She also had to handle 7 little Fëanors. ;) She most have had a darn strong mind to be able to do that.

[…] but his later deeds grieved her; and they became estranged.

It is a pity that they became estranged. But I also wonder which deeds made her turn away from him. Was it because he aimed his sword at Fingolfin? It can’t be his leading the Noldor out of Valinor for then there would be no time for them to become estranged and there is no record (at least to my knowledge) that she left Valinor with him.


Of Melkor

Melkor still hadn’t lost his touch after three ages in prison . He managed to fool both Valar and Elves. Quite a feat, even though Ulmo and Tulkas didn’t buy much of his lies they did not stop him mainly because Manwë certainly fell for it. And Nienna even supported his plea for pardon! Of all Valar she would be the one I the least expected to do so.

She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor.

If any of the Valar at least Nienna should remember Melkor’s evils the longest. Yet she is the one to plead his case. Did she pity Melkor for his incarceration? Did her pity overcome her reasoning here? Or did she not want to see that evil still lurked in Melkor? If so that the other Valar doubtlessly did the same. Manwë pardoned Melkor without looking deep into Melkor’s heart. You’d think that with someone who gave you so much trouble before, they’d be a little more careful to release him again. It’s seems to be a running theme that whenever the Valar try to do good (in this case to be merciful) it backfires on them. In any case Melkor must have been one sweet tongued son of a … female dog.

After his release Melkor aimed his hatred chiefly at the Eldar whom he deemed the reason for his downfall and because they were fair and happy. Things he didn’t seem to be able to stand. A bit of a social case that Melkor, I think. Though I think that another reason may have been that he could get back at the Valar through the Elves. The Valar loved the Elves greatly, if Melkor could estrange the Elves from the Valar it would have been quite a blow to the latter. But that’s just some personal after-thought.


There, I think I covered most things. It’s interesting picking a chapter apart but it takes a long time. Started at 21.30 and ended at 23.50. But I made it. Pfiew! I couldn’t really find many good discussion points to single out so I copied azalea’s method a little. So there. Start arguing! :)

I’m off to bed.

[Mirahzi]

Very thorough, Eärniel. :)
Originally posted by Eärniel
Of Melkor
If any of the Valar at least Nienna should remember Melkor’s evils the longest. Yet she is the one to plead his case. Did she pity Melkor for his incarceration? Did her pity overcome her reasoning here? Or did she not want to see that evil still lurked in Melkor? If so that the other Valar doubtlessly did the same.
Nienna pitied Melkor simply because that was her nature. It is said of her:
...those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her hall are west of West, upon the bborders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom.
Perhaps your third theory is also true, that she had hope for Melkor and his redemption.

Manwë pardoned Melkor without looking deep into Melkor’s heart. You’d think that with someone who gave you so much trouble before, they’d be a little more careful to release him again. It’s seems to be a running theme that whenever the Valar try to do good (in this case to be merciful) it backfires on them.
By our standards, Manwë may have seemed gullible and shallow. However, I believe his seemingly foolish trust in Melkor was a result of his purity. Since he himself did not truly know evil, it was impossible for him to fully understand its nature.

[azalea]

Good job, Earniel!
It's hard to respond to every point right now, but I'll do the first few:

How did the Elves see Feanor? Interesting question. I tend to see the storyteller's POV as pretty unbiased, but as far as his story as told in The Silm, I would say he'd be seen in a negative way, because of the personal strife he brought to so many. But I understand that in the other works, he is perhaps shown in a less negative light. So generally speaking I would say they viewed him maybe not as "good" or "bad," but simply as Powerful, a description which would encompass both the positive and negative. The elves as far as I can see would view power as an admirable trait, yet with the possiblility of being fell, and thus view it with caution.

At this point I tend to think that Feanor was destined to have personal problems, even if he hadn't had the broken family. I think he was born with such fire that he would eventually rebel no matter what, unless he was always given his way. But I suppose in the end it is a good thing that Finwe took another wife, because like you said, we would otherwise be without some very important elves, who end up balancing things out, as it were.

I'll respond more later.:)

[Maedhros]

In this chapter we first come up on Fëanor, one of the most influential and vital characters in Elvish history. It’s an Elf who we readers either love or hate. But how did the Elves see him? He is seemingly remembered by them as foremost the maker of the Silmarils and only then as leader of the rebelling Noldor. Since the Silmarils and the unrest of the Noldor is discussed in the next chapter I won’t touch them yet here. Yet already in this chapter we learn he is both skilled and learned.
He's the elf. There is a world of difference between Fëanor and your average elf. He was a genius. His inventions in language only makes him that. His craftmanship put him on a whole new level.
Fëanor was the elf who knew most about the Valarin language of the Valar.
One might think that his wayward character came from his unusual (at least for Elves) family situation. He grew up without his mother and with a father who adored him. He was soon presented with a stepmother.
Hmmm, in the Shibboleth of Fëanor, it is said that MÃ*riel lived with him until he became an adult, after that she relinquished her hröa.
As far as my limited knowledge of Elves goes, they don’t remarry. However they don’t usually refuse to take up another body either like MÃ*riel, Finwë’s wife did. Poor Finwë was in a sad situation. His wife refused to take up her body again after the birth of one son and Finwë wanted more children (why I do wonder, I suspect Fëanor was already more than a handful even as a child ).
That was a failing of love of Finwë. Failing from the highest standard there is, a failure of true love.
Manwë pardoned Melkor without looking deep into Melkor’s heart. You’d think that with someone who gave you so much trouble before, they’d be a little more careful to release him again. It’s seems to be a running theme that whenever the Valar try to do good (in this case to be merciful) it backfires on them. In any case Melkor must have been one sweet tongued son of a … female dog.
Manwë is the noblest of the Ainur. It was not easy for Manwë to see in Melkor's mind because Melkor had shut his mind. See Osanwe Kenta.

[Rían]

Maedhros, where is Osanwe Kenta?

Yes, I bought PoME recently and noticed the change in when MÃ*riel's death took place - From The Shibboleth of Fëanor, PoME
While she lived she did much with gentle counsel to soften and restrain him....The cause of her weariness she believed to be the bearing of Fëanor, great in mind and body beyond the measure of the Eldar. Her weariness she had endured until he was full grown, but she could endure it no longer.

For those who like names, like I do: From The Shibboleth of Fëanor, PoME, footnote 2
The only child of Miriel was afterwards usually called Fëanor. His first name was Finwë (minya), afterwards enlarged when his talents developed to Kurufinwë. His mother-name was in Quenya, as given by MÃ*riel, Fëanáro 'spirit of fire'. Fëanor is the form nearly always used in histories and legends, but is as it stands only half Sindarized: the genuine Sindarin form was Faenor; the form Fëanor (the ë is only a device of transcription, not needed in the original) probably arose through scribal confusion, especially in documents written in Quenya, in which ea was frequent but ae did not normally occur.

Hard to think of the scribes making an error in the case of Fëanor, tho...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hmmm, in the Shibboleth of Fëanor, it is said that MÃ*riel lived with him until he became an adult, after that she relinquished her hröa.

Is that so? Mmm.... interesting. I haven't read the Shibboleth yet soI drew the conclusion that Fëanor grew up without his mother from this quote from the Silmarillion:

At their parting (for a little while) as he thought) Finwë was sad, for it seemed an unhappy chance that the mother should depart and miss the beginning at least of the childhood days of her son.

It seemed to me that she departed when Fëanor was rather young.

[Rían]

(Eärniel, see the last sentence in the first quote of my previous post - that's where it says he was "full-grown' when she died - a definite change from the Sil)

[Earniel]

Yes, I know. I do read your posts, RÃ*an. ;) I was merely pointing out that I had used the Silmarillion as reference to make the opening post. Hence my saying that he grew up without his mother.

[Rían]

I just thought you might have fallen asleep before you got to that part....(I can be rather wordy....) ;)

That seems like rather a big change - your mother dying when you're a baby, or dying when you're full-grown.... and 50 years is a long time to endure weariness, too - a little more understandable for MÃ*riel to give up after being weary for 50 years, than to give up right after Fëanor's birth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Maedhros, where is Osanwe Kenta? Rian, I believe that it is an essay that is part of Venyar Tengwar. Michael Martinez has an impressive piece on it at Suite 101, called:

The tip of the iceberg: new information about Middle-earth

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/79363

[Rían]

Thanks, SGH :) The link doesn't seem to work now, but I"ll try again later...

What's Venyar Tengwar?

[Maedhros]

From the Peoples of Middle earth: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
Note 7: [It had been said several times in the later Quenta Silmarillion texts that Fëanáro was a 'name of insight' given to him by MÃ*riel at his birth; moreover in the story of MÃ*riel when it first appeared her spirit passed to Mandos soon after Fëanor was born, and it is expressly said in Laws and Customs among the Eldar that he never saw his mother (X.217). The story has now been altogether changed in this aspect: MÃ*riel named him with this name 'in recognition of his impetuous character'; 'while she lived she did much with gentle counsel to soften and restrain him'; and subsequently 'her weariness she had endured until he was full grown, but she could endure it no longer'. After MÃ*riel's 'death' or departure 'for a while he also had kept vigil by his mother's body, but soon he became wholly absorbed again in his own works and devices' (p. 335).]
Ósanwe-kenta is in Vinyar Tengwar # 39.
From Ósanwe-kenta
If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwë and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwë appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwë, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwë and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwë was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.
Manwë could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise.

[Elvet]

Quote:
"In this chapter we first come up on Fëanor, one of the most influential and vital characters in Elvish history. It’s an Elf who we readers either love or hate. But how did the Elves see him?"

It is hard to imagine how the other elves viewed him. I'm one of the readers that was not taken with Feanor. As Azalea said, I am jaded by the knowledge of the repercussions of his future deeds.
I see him as willful, standoffish and hot-tempered. But I think many of the elves would have respected his knowledge and accepted his leadership.

BTW, thank you Earniel, for presenting this chapter. Though I do not post much (I'm a bit shy in my lack of knowledge compared to the other posters), I visit here regularly and enjoy the discussions. I would have been disappointed if the project fell through.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't let lack of knowledge stop me! ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I don't let lack of knowledge stop me! ;) I only see the real brains of the Sil volunteering. Elvet has volunteered to do a chapter, and even be a standby if necessary.

Where were you when I needed you mister.:p :D

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I only see the real brains of the Sil volunteering. Elvet has volunteered to do a chapter, and even be a standby if necessary.

Where were you when I needed you mister.:p :D Eek! *runs back into the library to work on Chapter 8 some more* BTW, the mostcomplimentary reference to Feanor is Gandalf's, when he wishes to see the unimaginable "hand and mind of Feanor at work". I would imagine it would have been best to observe them from the comparative safety of another Age.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Attalus
.....I would imagine it would have been best to observe them from the comparative safety of another Age.

LOL! Great line, Attalus!

[Attalus]

*Grin* Thanks, Rian. As for:Originally posted by Eärniel


According to the Silmarillion one might blame his remarriage with Indis for the troubles it would cause later on. But it also states that if he hadn’t remarried, history would have been denied the sons he had with Indis and a much bleaker history it would have been: no Fingolfin, no Finrod Felagund (:eek:, ;) ), no Gondolin, no Eärendil, ect… Personally I’m not so sure if Finwë’s to blame. His was a rather exceptional situation with MÃ*riel.


I really must add, NO GALADRIEL!!! :D

[Maedhros]

Finwë had some responsability too. From Morgoth's Ring: Of The Severance Of Marriage
'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife: that was a failing in full love.
But the fëa of MÃ*riel hath not been let in peace, and by importuning its will hath been hardened; and in that resolve it must remain without change while Arda lasteth, if the Statute is declared. Thus the impatience of Finwë will close the door of life upon the fëa of his spouse. This is the greater fault.
Failling from the highest hope.:(

[Wayfarer]

If any of the Valar at least Nienna should remember Melkor’s evils the longest. Yet she is the one to plead his case. Did she pity Melkor for his incarceration? Perhaps. But I imagine that, while she mourned the hurts melkor did to Arda, she must have equally mourned those hurts which he had done to himself. For the sins of Melkor, Melkor alone must make full payment.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Finwë had some responsability too.
[snip]
Failling from the highest hope.:( Certainly. I think Finwë's fëa was tainted, as was MÃ*riel's. He's the elf. There is a world of difference between Fëanor and your average elf. He was a genius. His inventions in language only makes him that. His craftmanship put him on a whole new level.
Fëanor was the elf who knew most about the Valarin language of the Valar.Quite. But he was not the most wise of the Elves, nor the most noble-spirited, even if he thought so himself.

Of Nerdanel
Originally posted by Eärniel
It is a pity that they became estranged. But I also wonder which deeds made her turn away from him. Was it because he aimed his sword at Fingolfin? It can’t be his leading the Noldor out of Valinor for then there would be no time for them to become estranged and there is no record (at least to my knowledge) that she left Valinor with him.Nerdanel and Fëanor became estranged because of his rebellion against the Valar, in which she refused to take part. She went to stay in her father's house, and did not go to Middle-Earth. There is a passage about their last parting in the Shibboleth, where Nerdanel foretells the fate of Ambarto, one of their twin sons: Later, as Feanor became more and more fell and violent, and rebelled against the Valar, Nerdanel, after long endeavouring to change his mood, became estranged. (Her kin were devoted to Aule, who counselled her father to take no part in the rebellion. 'It will in the end only lead Feanor and all your children to
death.') She retired to her father's house; but then it became clear that Feanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, she came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Feanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or one at least of them. He replied: 'Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aule, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of your children. For they are determined to go with their father.' Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: 'You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.' 'Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them,' said Feanor. 'I defy them'. So they parted.I do not quite understand Nerdanel here. She knows for sure one of her sons will die, and Aulë has warned her father of the death of their other children also. And yet she lets them go away seemingly without much effort to stop them. Unbelievable.
Originally posted by Attalus
I really must add, NO GALADRIEL!!! :eek:

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
I do not quite understand Nerdanel here. She knows for sure one of her sons will die, and Aulë has warned her father of the death of their other children also. And yet she lets them go away seemingly without much effort to stop them. Unbelievable.

Nerdanel knew Fëanor and her sons the best. I suppose she knew there was nearly nothing that would make them change their minds. And that more attempts to make them stay would be equally useless.

[Rían]

from the Shibboleth
but then it became clear that Feanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever
The quote includes the sons - I imagine her talking to them, but eventually seeing they are dead set on going, and the little scene between Nerdanel and Fëanor we see in the book was the last discussion on the matter. She knew her best chance to save her sons at this point was one last appeal to their father - if he changed his mind, then they probably would, too.

[Artanis]

RÃ*an and Eärniel, these are valid points. But I speak and feel as a mother here :) I would have fought until death for my children, it doesn't seem like Nerdanel would. And she did not ask Fëanor to change his mind, she asked him only to leave one or two of the twins behind.

Perhaps Nerdanel, knowing well the personalities of her spouse and sons, understood that her pressing them on the matter would only make them more determinant to go, just like MÃ*riel became more and more obstinate in her decision to not return from Mandos for each time Finwë pleaded. What a dreadful situation. :(

Edit: Smiley should be a saddy :rolleyes:

[Rían]

Yes, I think you're right, Artanis and Eärniel - the more she pressed her sons to change, the more they would decide to stay with their decision, just like MÃ*riel. She probably felt that her only hope at this point was with her husband (wives can sometimes convince husbands to change their minds ... ;) ) - I wonder how much Fëanor really did love her at the beginning of their marriage? Nerdanel's father was such a famous craftsman - I hope it wasn't only for that reason that Fëanor married her ... :(

(and here I go again, talking like these are real people! Tolkien's writing is SO vivid and realistic and beautiful!)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
For those who like names, like I do:Btw, more about names. I've always wondered about the origin of the names of Fingolfin and Finarfin, they seemed such odd names. The Shibboleth gave the answer: Fingolfin is the Sindarin rendering of Finwë Ñolofinwë (wise-), and Finarfin is the Sindarin rendering of Finwë Arafinwë (noble-).

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
(and here I go again, talking like these are real people! Tolkien's writing is SO vivid and realistic and beautiful!)

Don't stop. That's what makes these discussions so interesting. :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I wonder how much Fëanor really did love her at the beginning of their marriage? Nerdanel's father was such a famous craftsman - I hope it wasn't only for that reason that Fëanor married her ... :(Wasn't Nerdanel well skilled in crafts herself? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I think the marriage of Nerdanel and Fëanor would have worked out far better hadn't Melkor been around.

[Fat middle]

Artanis, i think the quote you are thinking of is about Myriel. Tolkien says that her hands were the most skilled of all elves (before Fëanor was born).

[Maedhros]

I wonder how much Fëanor really did love her at the beginning of their marriage? Nerdanel's father was such a famous craftsman - I hope it wasn't only for that reason that Fëanor married her ...
This is of course prejudice.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
While still in early youth Fëanor wedded Nerdanel, a maiden of the Noldor; at which many wondered, for she was not among the fairest of her people. But she was strong, and free of mind, and filled with the desire of knowledge. In her youth she loved to wander far from the dwellings of the Noldor, either beside the long shores of the Sea or in the hills; and thus she and Fëanor had met and were companions in many journeys.
Elves took their marriages very seriously, I doubt that someone as Nerdanel would marry someone who wasn't truly in love with her.

[Rían]

Yes, I think that's it, Fat Middle (what, too many empanadas? :D) - I remember the bit about MÃ*riel being incredibly skilled in weaving. All I can recall about Nerdanel is how she was of a similar mind to Fëanor, but didn't want to master people, like Fëanor did *searches for quote* Oh my goodness! I just found something I had completely forgotton from Morgoth's Ring - here's the quote I was looking for : She also was firm of will, but she was slower and more patient than Fëanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them.
But I also found this: Of Mahtan Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things of metal and stone. She made images, some of the Valar in their forms visible, and many others of men and women of the Eldar, and these were so like that their friends, if they knew not her art, would speak to them; but many things she wrought also of her own thought in shapes strong and strange but beautiful.
So Nerdanel was very skilled, too - I had forgotten that quote.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is of course prejudice.....Elves took their marriages very seriously, I doubt that someone as Nerdanel would marry someone who wasn't truly in love with her.

I think that it's possible that Nerdanel's father's skill had at least some influence in Fëanor's decision to marry Nerdanel. Elves took marriage very seriously, but in MR it also implies that at least some marriages might have other elements besides love - The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. And to the Noldor, knowledge and skill were extremely important.

[Maedhros]

I think that it's possible that Nerdanel's father's skill had at least some influence in Fëanor's decision to marry Nerdanel.
Why couldn't Fëanor learned from Mahtan if he wasn't married to Nerdanel? Was Mahtan jelous of his knowledge?

[Rían]

My opinion comes from being a daughter-in-law. I know that once a person is married, it's a different (and ideally much closer and better) relationship with your husband's parents than before you were married. You really become part of the family. And I imagine that families have some secrets they share only with other family members, just like some moms have secret family recipies. I think that once Fëanor married Nerdanel, Mahtan would be willing to spend more time with him and help him to learn more.

[Maedhros]

I think that once Fëanor married Nerdanel, Mahtan would be willing to spend more time with him and help him to learn more.
Hehe. Fëanor was the Elf who knew more about the Valarin language than any other elf. Who taught him taugh him that?
Aulë did. If Aulë could teach him that, why wouldn't he learn metalcraft from him?
Why would Mahtan withdraw knowledge just because they are not family?
That sounds human and not elvish. After all, Fëanor was so brilliant that, he only needed the basics.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hehe. Fëanor was the Elf who knew more about the Valarin language than any other elf. Who taught him taugh him that?
Aulë did. If Aulë could teach him that, why wouldn't he learn metalcraft from him?
I think Fëanor DID learn metalcraft from Aulë. However, Aulë also had other things to attend to, and other people to teach and help, and prob. could not spend as much time with Fëanor as Fëanor desired.

Why would Mahtan withdraw knowledge just because they are not family?
Not that Mahtan would WITHDRAW knowledge, but again it comes down to time and priority, and one naturally gives family more time and higher priority. I'm sure there were LOTS of people that wanted to learn from Mahtan.

That sounds human and not elvish. After all, Fëanor was so brilliant that, he only needed the basics.
I disagree. I imagine he picked things up really fast, and he went beyond his teachers, but I still think he needed to be taught. And Mahtan DID teach him, for he regretted it later on: Bitterly Mahtan rued the day when he had taught to the husband of Nerdanel, his daughter, all the lore of metal work that he learned of Aulë.

[Maedhros]

Not that Mahtan would WITHDRAW knowledge, but again it comes down to time and priority, and one naturally gives family more time and higher priority. I'm sure there were LOTS of people that wanted to learn from Mahtan.
Such as .......?
I disagree. I imagine he picked things up really fast, and he went beyond his teachers, but I still think he needed to be taught.
Of course.
Can you give me evidence to support your claim that Fëanor was motivated from other things than love for marrying Nerdanel.

[Rían]

by Maedhros
Such as .......?
I imagine you are well aware of the many times that JRRT refers to the Noldor as loving knowledge and loving to make things. I think it is a reasonable assumption that many of them would be thrilled to be instructed by Mahtan, who is named as a 'great smith' and dear to Aulë, wouldn't you think? from Morgoth's Ring, the later qs
Her father, Mahtan, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë.
And if Fëanor, probably a good judge of skill :), wanted Mahtan to teach him things, I think it's reasonable to assume that others did, too. Nerdanel was taught by her father, too, and she certainly seemed to have a great deal of skill. But no, I can't give you any more specific names; Tolkien, that I'm aware of, didn't include such a list.

by Maedhros
Can you give me evidence to support your claim that Fëanor was motivated from other things than love for marrying Nerdanel.
I said --> "I think that it's possible that Nerdanel's father's skill had at least some influence in Fëanor's decision to marry Nerdanel." I support that by noting the many flaws in Fëanor's character that JRRT notes in the Sil and in HoME 10 and 12, culminating in the strongly implied guilt of Fëanor in knowingly killing his own son when he burnt the ships. If he is capable of that, then marrying Nerdanel partly to gain better access to her father's skill does not by any means seem beyond him; would you agree? I have no evidence, but I think it's a reasonable surmise, since there IS evidence that Fëanor does not seem to be against basely using others to further his own interests. But I DO think that Fëanor's PRIMARY reason to wed Nerdanel was love (but I have no evidence for this, either :) )

[Maedhros]

If he is capable of that, then marrying Nerdanel partly to gain better access to her father's skill does not by any means seem beyond him; would you agree? I have no evidence, but I think it's a reasonable surmise, since there IS evidence that Fëanor does not seem to be against basely using others to further his own interests.
I think it's reasonably to surmise that Fëanor could have used other teachers too. I could surmise that Fëanor is an easy target to villify too. Since there is no evindence then, it just an opinion.

[Attalus]

Alas, I would love to see some evidence that Feanor loved anything besides himself and his creations. I really think of him as an Adam figure, without any sympathetic traits that I can see. In Addams' Fall/ We sinned all. Besides having two of the most loathesome of JRRT's creations for sons (Celegorm and Curufin).

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I think it's reasonably to surmise that Fëanor could have used other teachers too.
I agree :). However, the only person that I recall being singled out as "great smith" and "most dear to the heart of Aulë" is Mahtan, and I imagine he was one of Fëanor's primary teachers.

I could surmise that Fëanor is an easy target to villify too.
I don't think I'm vilifying him - do you think I am? - I think he is a wonderful character with amazing talents, but Tolkien portrays him as having some major character flaws, and because of his great talents and abilities, the effects of his bad choices were worse than those of, say, a simple Wood Elf.

Since there is no evindence then, it just an opinion.
I never said it was anything else, Maitimo, right from my first post on the subject. I think it is, however, a fairly well-educated opinion (as opposed to, say, someone whose only exposure to Tolkien is Jackson's movies :eek: ). Fëanáro was indeed a 'spirit of fire' - he did everything with all his heart, including loving his mother and father, and their tragic deaths hurt him deeply. I've always liked Tolkien's comment on this: (Fëanor has just learned his father has been killed - the first to die in Aman): from Morgoth's Ring, the Annals of Aman
But now Fëanor ran from the concourse and fled into the night, as one mad both with wrath and with grief; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

[Rían]

Hey, Attalus, I see my last quote answered your wish to see evidence that Fëanor loved anything besides himself and his creations! I didn't even see your post because you posted while I was typing :) Fëanor also loved his mother (from the Shibboleth - "Fëanor loved his mother dearly...") - but I don't remember seeing any other comment about him loving anyone else, or actions showing that he loved anyone else.

[Attalus]

Point taken, Rian. Thanks. ;)

[Maedhros]

since there IS evidence that Fëanor does not seem to be against basely using others to further his own interests.
And where is that evidence? Who did he use to further his interests? Who did he force to go against their will?
The Ñoldor who followed him willingly, there were those who choose to remain behind, no one forced the others to go, Finarfin abandon the quest.
Futhermore, Fëanor left Fingolfin's host in the Wastes of Araman, they were still in Valinor, they could have returned to Aman, but they choose to go to ME.
Who did he force to make the silmarils? I thought that Fëanor worked ever alone and took no counsels except that of his wife and that was for a while.
The only thing that barely resembles such an accusation is when he fought the Teleri for their ships.
Who did Fëanor used when he got ahead and went to Angband to fight Morgoth and his balrogs? Who did he deceived into helping him?
I can finally see the difference between your posts and those of Artanis now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I can finally see the difference between your posts and those of Artanis now. Well, that wasn't very nice.

No, Feanor did not use force Maedhros, but he did use tactics to achieve his ends, as did his sons.

From the published Silmarillion:

Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, of Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.'
Many other words he spoke, potent as were long before in Tirion the words of his father that first inflamed the Noldor to rebellion. after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.

IMO, that is how Feanor achieved his goals. Not a good thing.

[azalea]

It is my opinion that those who value the retrieval of stolen jewels, no matter how beautiful, above all else, including one's own life and the lives of others, is someone who has a limited ability to love others, no matter how brilliant a craftsman of earth and language he is.

[Attalus]

Amen, Azalea. Jewels, after all, are mere things, though these were powerful artefacts indeed, and totally not worthy of causing an outrage like the Kinslaying.

[Maedhros]

IMO, that is how Feanor achieved his goals. Not a good thing.
Hehe. I don't recall the Ñoldor being coerced into that. Some even turned away from that, didn't they.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hehe. I don't recall the Ñoldor being coerced into that. Some even turned away from that, didn't they.

From the Sil, "Of the Flight of the Noldor" - Little foresight could there be for those who dared to take so dark a road. Yet all was done in over-haste; for Fëanor drove them on, fearing lest in the cooling of their hearts his words should wane and other counsels yet prevail...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think azalea's summary was spot-on :)


And for the record, when I think of Fëanor, my first feeling is one of sorrow for his anguish. I have no interest in vilifying him. However, I also value character more than talent, and so I cannot overlook his wrong actions, or totally excuse them because of the sorrows he went through.

[Maedhros]

I didn't realize the Ñoldor were little children with no mind of their own. Doh.

[Rían]

Was Tolkien wrong when he wrote that, then? :confused: :(

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I didn't realize the Ñoldor were little children with no mind of their own. Doh.
I matter of conflict and crises they wer almost entirely innocent. Apart from the death of Miriel, nothing much bad had happened any of them for thousands of years.

[Rían]

From a different angle - the positive one -

When I think of:
Fingon - I think of his incredible feat of bravery in rescuing Maedhros, even though he "knew not yet that Maedhros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships". That is one of my favorite sections in the Sil - that Fingon the valiant would rescue Maedhros, his old friend, even though he didn't know that Maedhros didn't take part in the ship-burning.

Fingolfin - I think of how he left Valinor "against his wisdom, because Fingon his son so urged him, and because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor." And he "set at naught" Fëanor's drawing of his sword on him.

Finarfin - I think of how he also left Valinor "for like reasons" (same as Fingolfin's - didn't want to be sundered from his people or leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor), even tho he was "most loath" to go. And he was "filled with grief" after the slaying of the Teleri.

Finrod - I think of how, when he was in the dungeon of Sauron, he burst his bonds and fought the werewolf with his hands and teeth to save Beren. JRRT writes of him that he had a "noble and generous heart", in addition to his "high courage".

So those guys, half-brothers and cousins to Fëanor, showed integrity, courage, and love FOR OTHERS by their actions. I just don't see it recorded anywhere that Fëanor did things like this. I basically see Fëanor's immense talents deservedly praised, but not his character.


ps - and another note on Fëanor's powers of persuasive speech - from Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman:
Fëanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it. Now he was on fire, and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they have ever remembered. Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride; and they moved the people to madness like the fumes of hot wine.

[Rían]

by Maedhros
And where is that evidence? Who did he use to further his interests? Who did he force to go against their will?

I did say Fëanor used others to further his own interests; I don't think I said anywhere that he "forced" others to go against their will (I assume you meant leaving Valinor). So I'll only address the first point.

*I think he used the Noldor in general to further his goal of getting the Silmarils back. From the Sil, Of the Flight of the Noldor: "After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War he shall have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!" And as it was said in my earlier quote, Fëanor was afraid they would cool off and change their minds, which would make it harder to get the jewels back.

*The slaying of the Teleri and the taking of their ships is the worst example of Fëanor's using others to further his interests, IMO. As was said in the Prophecy of the North, "Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman." This action was deservedly called "wicked". And after the Prophecy was spoken, Fëanor "hardened his heart", but Finarfin was "filled with grief".

*Abandoning Fingolfin at Araman was another example, IMO - the people were suffering "anguish from the cold". And what is so sad, IMO, is what Fëanor says when Maedhros asks about sending the ships back for the others - he laughs "as one fey" and says, "What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved.....Let the ships burn!" It's bad enough to leave the people in a terrible place, but to call them "needless baggage" and then to burn the ships - that was really cruel, IMO.

*And finally, even when he died, the only recorded thing he said was that he cursed Morgoth and "laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father". It just seems sad that he doesn't seem to feel sorrow over his actions.


I think what sums it up well is from the opening of "Of the Sun and the Moon" in the Sil ("they" refers to the Valar) - And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

And that's my opinion :) It looks like our opinions will just have to be different, but that's part of what makes Entmoot interesting :)

[Rían]

One final quote that I think is very insightful into the whole matter, along the lines of what azalea posted - from the Sil, "Of the Silmarils"
For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils witha greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.
:( :(

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
One final quote that I think is very insightful into the whole matter, along the lines of what azalea posted -
:( :(

Very good posts, RÃ*an :cool:

[Maedhros]

Abandoning Fingolfin at Araman was another example, IMO - the people were suffering "anguish from the cold". And what is so sad, IMO, is what Fëanor says when Maedhros asks about sending the ships back for the others - he laughs "as one fey" and says, "What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved.....Let the ships burn!" It's bad enough to leave the people in a terrible place, but to call them "needless baggage" and then to burn the ships - that was really cruel, IMO.
You are right, Fëanor wanted that the Ñoldor go with him to ME to regain his Silmarils but he leaves Fingolfin's and Co hosts in the Wastes of Araman. Hmmmmm, so he goes to all of this trouble to recruit the Ñoldor and then leaves them behind. Doesn't makes sense, unless he regreted having them go to ME and therefore gave them a chance to return unharmed to Valinor.
Think about it, if Fëanor is the way you portray him, he wouldn't have said to the other Host, you know what, I don't think it's a good idea for you to come with me, so stay here. Fëanor was not nice, that is the unnice way to leave them out of a big Mess.
Why did they go forth anyway, because they were proud.
There was this guy Melkor who was a very powerful Vala, who perverted some of the Ñoldor, but that has been overlooked in this thread.:confused:
I matter of conflict and crises they wer almost entirely innocent. Apart from the death of Miriel, nothing much bad had happened any of them for thousands of years.
And I thought that Melkor was a bad influence on the Ñoldor.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Very good posts, RÃ*an :cool:
Thanks, FM :)


Originally posted by Maedhros
There was this guy Melkor who was a very powerful Vala, who perverted some of the Ñoldor, but that has been overlooked in this thread. :confused:
No, I put up a quote about that - see the last quote in my post about 3 posts up ... (from "Of the Sun and the Moon" in the Sil). A very poignant and beautifully written bit of prose.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
You are right, Fëanor wanted that the Ñoldor go with him to ME to regain his Silmarils but he leaves Fingolfin's and Co hosts in the Wastes of Araman. Hmmmmm, so he goes to all of this trouble to recruit the Ñoldor and then leaves them behind. Doesn't makes sense, unless he regreted having them go to ME and therefore gave them a chance to return unharmed to Valinor.


I disagree. According to the Silmarillion he left Fingolfin behind because he feared the treachery that was predicted in the Doom of the Noldor.

But the Helcaraxë they deemed impassable, whereas the ships were too few. Many had been lost upon their long journey, and there remained now not enough to bear across all the great host together; yet none were willing to abide upon the western coast while others were ferried first: already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor. Therefore it came into the hearts of Fëanor and his sons to seize all the ships and depart suddenly, [...]

He treated them like needless luggage indeed.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
There was this guy Melkor who was a very powerful Vala, who perverted some of the Ñoldor, but that has been overlooked in this thread.:confused:Maedhros has a good point here about Melkor. It was not only Fëanor who listened to and were stirred by Melkor's cunning talk and lies. Many of the Ñoldor had become proud and unrestful by the lies of Melkor, but it was only Fëanor who rebelled openly, and so he got the blame.
Originally posted by azalea
It is my opinion that those who value the retrieval of stolen jewels, no matter how beautiful, above all else, including one's own life and the lives of others, is someone who has a limited ability to love others, no matter how brilliant a craftsman of earth and language he is.I see your point. But still Fëanor did love other people: His mother and father, and Nerdanel, and his sons. The Silmarillion says about Fëanor that his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?Also, to give up the Silmarils may be harder than we can imagine. The words spoken by Aulë and Fëanor when the two trees have been slain and and Fëanor si asked by the Valar to break the Silmarils says something about that:Then Tulkas cried: 'Speak, O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?'
But Aulë the Maker said: 'Be not hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.'
But Fëanor spoke then, and cried bitterly: 'For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.'Fëanor is such a tragic character. He has this magnificent potential, but if everything he makes with his hands and his minds are wonderful, his personal relations ends with disaster, from the very beginning of his life. :(

[Maedhros]

I disagree. According to the Silmarillion he left Fingolfin behind because he feared the treachery that was predicted in the Doom of the Noldor.
There is a passage from the Shibboleth that states that Fingolfin was claiming the High kinship of the Ñoldor too in the time of the revolt.
Funny that he urged the needless baggage to come forth and then leave them behind.

[Rían]

I was re-reading Eärniel's excellent summary :) and came across Nerdanel's name, and I thought I would include this interesting little quote from HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring, for those that don't have it (it refers to when Fëanor was banished from Túna (why, oh why did JRRT give that city a fish's name!!) for 12 years for drawing his sword on Fingolfin: But Nerdanel would not go with him, and she asked leave to abide with Indis, whom she had ever esteemed, though this had been little to the liking of Fëanor.
Rather interesting that Nerdanel the wise chose this course of action, isn't it? It also implies that Indis was not with Finwë anymore, since Finwë went with Fëanor.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Rather interesting that Nerdanel the wise chose this course of action, isn't it?Her not following Fëanor, or her abiding with Indis? The first is straightforward enough, since she didn't support the actions that led to Fëanor's banishment from Túna. The latter is more subtle. She must have known that this would be a blow to her husband. It also implies that Indis was not with Finwë anymore, since Finwë went with Fëanor. Finwë and Indis became estranged, because Finwë's heart still was with MÃ*riel, I think.

[Attalus]

:)Originally posted by RÃ*an
(it refers to when Fëanor was banished from Túna (why, oh why did JRRT give that city a fish's name!!) Tuna was the hill upon which Tirion the Fair was built. I admit it always gives me the mental picture of a beautiful elven city sitting atop a tuna salad on rye. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Just because I never wanted it to be the fish name, I always pronounced it (Twna). Oh well.:rolleyes:

[Rían]

Originally posted by Attalus
:) Tuna was the hill upon which Tirion the Fair was built. I admit it always gives me the mental picture of a beautiful elven city sitting atop a tuna salad on rye. ;)

And I can't keep the image of opened tin cans laying around the base of the hill out of my head, either :eek: - pass the pickles!

(You're right about Tuna/Tirion - thanks! - I get them mixed up)

[Attalus]

Well, RÃ*an my dear, i I guess and hope that we will get some more tomorrow. Awaiting it cheerfully yet impatiently. :D

[Rían]

What, more tuna? ;) *heads off to the kitchen* Rats! out of pickles! :D

[Earniel]

I find it now kind of bothers me that Fëanor was such genius with no compare. In our world, in every field of technology, art or science there is never one genius that compasses them all. Everyone has to build on those that came before them. We have may individuals like Einstein or Archimedes that make great leaps forward but no one makes them all on their own.

In the Silmarillion we have Fëanor who -in his youth!- already improves their entire writing system all on his own. And then he goes on. He masters seemingly everything and then goes far beyond everybody else. Public speaking! Linguistics! Glassmaking! Lampmaking! Smithy-work of every kind! He even taught himself to make swords from scratch! And he gets to keep it all completely a secret. None of his own inventions or techniques are even guessed at by others. No one ever afterwards discovers his processes or re-invent them.

Even for mythology as this is, I'm finding this a bit much. If someone can make a scientific or technological discovery, so can others, sometimes even doing so at the same time. Not so with Fëanor, even in ages afterwards no one comes close. I'd like there to be at least something in which he didn't succeed at all no matter how much he tried. I'd would have made him more human. Or maybe I just think Fëanor is too much of a jerk to be so good... :glance:

[Valandil]

Maybe Feanor just had good PR. Or stole the inventions of others. :p Say... perhaps he just started with the written language aspect, and then started writing all kinds of good things about himself. :D ;)

[Earniel]

Now that would be fiendish...