Helm's Deep?

[legolas7410]

what do you people think of the elfs comming in the movie(the tt)to helmsdeep to help rohan?? do you think they should of stuck to the book?? if they stuck to the book how do you think the scene should of gone??(please move to movie forum i was in the wrong forum)

[Celebriel]

I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided.

I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship.



- Celebriel

[gollum9630]

The scene was awesome, and i think it was so that the victory did not seem fake. Also, the women and children went to Helms Deep, but in the book Eowyn was asked to watch over the people by Theoden

[legolas_the_great]

Originally posted by Celebriel
I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided.

I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship.



- Celebriel
i agree but it was a good scene

[gimli7410]

i hated it when haldir died but also i dont think the elves should of come it just ruined it for me

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, that kinda invalidates the 'Last' Alliance of Men and Elves, doesn't it? ;) Anyway, I believe there's already a topic on this. :)

[Aranwe]

The scene was awesome, and i think it was so that the victory did not seem fake

It wouldn't have been fake if they stuck to the book... Eomer and the Riders would have been there already, instead of arriving late after all the Elves were dead. In the movie there were only 300 men (before the elves arrive) vs the 10,000 uruks/wild men, but in the book there are just more Riders and Eomer there to begin with.

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by Celebriel
I do not like how the writers did not stay true to the books, but the scene was fine anyway. Poor Haldir. I believe the appearance of the elves was to add hope to the battle. If there were just the people of Rohan, the fight would seem very one-sided.

I also think the addition of elves helped visualize the mortality of the elves that had not been explored in the Fellowship.



- Celebriel

wait....what? WHy do you have my name. *grumbles* :confused:

[Sween]

allthougyh i dont really have anything against the elves turning up at helms deep (hey elves are cool) it was one of those point in the story where you just didnt feel the need in them. there was nothing wrong with the battle as it reads in the books.

I think it deminished the people of Rohan who have a very capiable army which didnt seem to exist.

[Lizra]

Yes, I think if the Orthanc division was given massive doses of steroids. The 'overkill" in that department called for "pulling a rabbit out of a hat" (elves) for the Rohan contingent. I would have prefered a good old fashioned battle with slower shots, less special effects and "real" fighting. Everything was overdone!

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Lizra:

I agree with that. The shots were a little quick for my taste. Do you suppose that makes it easier to pull of the special effects and possible cut down on the graphic violence thing for the PG 13 rating? I don't know.

[Lizra]

I don't know either! I very rarely see movies! I've thought the orcs were too hideous from the very start. Many have suggested this was because PJ had a background in horror movies (or whatever you call those things! ;) ) And he was just doing his thing. The scarier the orcs (uruks) get, the more superhuman the good guys have to be to conquer them. It starts to get out of control if you ask me! Comic books?

[Aranwe]

I think it deminished the people of Rohan who have a very capiable army which didnt seem to exist.

Not really, 2000 armoured men on horses is a pretty good army, plus the 300 guards/commoners from the city.

In the book it takes days for the king to ready the 6000 horsemen he can spare for Gondor, and as it happened in the movie there would be no time to prepare anyone outside of the city.

It doesn't really look like a huge place as it is shown, so most of the army wouldn't actually live within the walls.

[legolas_the_great]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, I think if the Orthanc division was given massive doses of steroids. The 'overkill" in that department called for "pulling a rabbit out of a hat" (elves) for the Rohan contingent. I would have prefered a good old fashioned battle with slower shots, less special effects and "real" fighting. Everything was overdone! the only reason they won in the book was because orks are stupid!

[Bombadillo]

What did Peter Jackson do to Helm's Deep? Elves? What? Bad!

What do you all think?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think this could easily go in the topic up top about the Two Towers. But of course, I may very well be wrong. :) We'll have to wait to see what the admins say.

[IronParrot]

In the context of the film, I didn't mind the change regarding the Elves.

I would really like to elaborate on my reasoning here but it would probably take up a lot of time and space that I don't really have right now. So I'll just do a point-form summary of some things to consider... think of it as the Cliff Notes for my response.

- Elves were already introduced and familiar to the audience - the Dunedain, on the other hand, were not... suitable replacement follows

- Developing Elrond as a character, and his sense of responsibility regarding the fate of Middle-Earth even if the Elves are leaving anyway

- A whole bunch of philosophical drivel about moral categorical imperatives and thematic implications I won't touch unless specifically asked

- The death of the otherwise immortal Elves in battle as symbolic of the ultimate mortality of Middle-Earth and the fading of the Elves

- Most of the Elvish involvement in the War of the Ring is in the background, especially with the defence of Lothlorien and such - in film, relegating action to the background would pose questions about the Elves' suspicious absence from foreground events

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I take it the admins think this topic is fine as a stand-alone. :)

[IronParrot]

My personal judgment as an admin is that this is enough of a specific issue that this forum gives it plenty of room to move. Given the intentions of the general reaction thread to The Two Towers when it was created, and how it continues to be used today, that's more for holistic judgments, reflections and discussion of the film as a whole. The handling of Helm's Deep in the film is a topic within a narrower framework.

[Bombadillo]

It may have made for a good portion of the movie, but the Battle of Helm's Deep would have been just as good without elves. Better, because it follows the book. It twists Tolkien's work, for no reason at all. It doesn't attract people to the theatres or make more money. In fact, it probably costed more for all the extra actors and props and such. I think it's just blasphemy.

[azalea]

There was already a topic for this, but what I did was just merge it into this one (since your thread title was grammatically correct:) ). That way people who posted in that one won't have to repeat their opinions (unless they really want to :) ), and we won't have the problem of multiple threads on one topic.
I will repeat my opinion here, because I think I had put it in a different thread: although the elves coming to Helm's Deep was a dramatic departure from the book, I enjoyed it immensely, and feel that it was one of the more forgivable departures, for the reasons that IP listed.

[Melko Belcha]

I hated it. It took away from the whole fact that it is time for the domination of man. You do not have to show Lothlorien and Mirkwood being attacked to still have it part of the story. Helm's Deep was the Rohirrims fight, not the Elves. Plus PJ could have hired people to play Erkenbrand and more Rohirrim then waste the time on the Elves. I like Elves, they were just not needed. And it makes me have real bad feeling of how he is going to do the Battle of the Pelennor, he'll probably make Galadriel show up shooting lightning out of her ***.

[Elf Girl]

What he said.

Also, if the Elves are going to the East to help out, why not go to Gondor, where they are really needed?

[IronParrot]

Because Gondor isn't under full-scale assault yet. Who knows, the Elves might indeed show up in ROTK, though it's unlikely. In the book, the Elves were preoccupied with the defence of Lothlorien.

Also, most of the changes to Helm's Deep were somehow related to eliminating Erkenbrand. (For example, Eomer leading the flanking charge instead.) So I'll respond to this comment:

Plus PJ could have hired people to play Erkenbrand and more Rohirrim then waste the time on the Elves.
No he couldn't, because the book fundamentally has more room for characters than a film does. Names are easier to remember and distinguish than faces, and you can always go back and look them up. In film, you're working with forward linear motion on the time axis, and with faces, not names. Therefore, it was imperative that the number of characters was cut down. This applies to Erkenbrand as well as, say, Fatty Bolger, Bill Ferny, Radagast, Quickbeam and (presumably) Imrahil.

A partial solution to reducing the cast is to take some characters and bring them back into the story. Haldir was a logical choice, given his role in the film of FOTR. There was no need to spend time reintroducing him into the story, since the film has no time to be overly bogged down with introductions.

[Bombadillo]

He had plenty of time. It was a long movie but I wouln't have minded it in the least if it was longer. Titanic was long too, and that's the favorite movie of how many people? I don't think anybody would have complained if there were no elves. Indeed, it would gain more praise.
My point is the story for the battle was already written, by Tolkien. Why change it!? I guess PJ just wanted to finish working fast.


(Sorry about the not seeing this thread by the way. It didn't come up when I searched. And thanks for merging and not deleting.)

[gimli7410]

i dont kno if i saw just the men fighting in the movie i thought it would be hopeless. but i did like it when haldir came and renewed the alliance.

[azalea]

I'll give a little further explanation about why I felt the elves coming was a more forgivable change than others he made:
I see the changes in one of two ways, either superficial or significant. The superficial changes have more to do with actions or dialog that don't change the storyline, and the significant ones have a greater impact on the original storyline.
For instance, people have complained about Elrond being "mean." But this didn't really bother me because that makes no difference to the storyline as I can see it. People have also complained of Faramir being "mean," and I am one of them, because to me, the changes in Faramir impact the deeper themes from the book. (I won't go into that here, you can go to one of the Faramir threads to argue about it, but I was using it as an example).
So then we have the whole Helm's Deep set of sequences. Having the elves come, although quite a dramatic scene, really doesn't affect the general storyline. Certainly it would be preferable to have a closer rendition, but frankly I enjoyed seeing the elves dressed for battle, and the reaction of all who were there. I wouldn't have missed it if he hadn't included it, but it did answer the question I'm sure many in the non-book audience would have asked, "Why don't the elves help?" Could he have answered it differently? Yes! But he chose to do it this way, and it really didn't affect my enjoyment of the film. Although it did raise my eyebrows when I saw it, as the scene progressed, and later on when Haldir was killed, I appreciated it for what it was.
The changes that I personally didn't like regarding Helm's Deep were more along the lines of drastic, although less dramatic, changes to the Helm's Deep "plot," if you will, regarding Aragorn's fall, Theoden's "running away," and the like. The lack of Huorns, while again lamentable, was fairly forgivable, as Jackson handled the victory in a different way.
I'll repeat that certainly I would have preferred a more faithful version, but I just wanted to explain my position on the elves, and state that I was able to enjoy the movie despite the changes.

[Bombadillo]

I understand your view, but it still bugs me. He didn't have to answer any questions for the non-readers. (Who knows? Maybe if he didn't more may have read to answer them for themselves) And it didn't make any difference at all. So why did he do it? He's just that kind of guy? He should have kept to the books and there would have been no problems, no contreversy.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by azalea

The changes that I personally didn't like regarding Helm's Deep were more along the lines of drastic, although less dramatic, changes to the Helm's Deep "plot," if you will, regarding Aragorn's fall, Theoden's "running away," and the like. The lack of Huorns, while again lamentable, was fairly forgivable, as Jackson handled the victory in a different way.
But I don't see how Elves showing up, and Gandalf bringing back an exiled Eomer to save the day isn't more drastic then Aragorn falling off a cliff.

[azalea]

Well, you understand it is just my opinion, but the way I see it, the main plot of the Helm's Deep part is "Saruman's army is defeated." That's way over-simplifying it, but anyway, it doesn't, in the "big picture," make any difference that the elves were there or not, or who came at the last minute to save the day or whatever, what matters is that Saruman's army was defeated, and the people of Rohan saved. As long as he did nothing outrageous (although I know you're thinking "I think the elves showing up was pretty outrageous!" :) ), such as have the orcs win, or kill off Theoden or something, it still brings us to the same end. Unnecessary, yes, but forgivable, and for my part, enjoyable.
On the other hand, the Aragorn sequence (which really wasn't the best opposing example I could have given) took up a lot of time for one thing. It took all of two minutes to show all the elf-specific stuff there, but the whole Aragorn thing went on for several minutes. AND it sidetracked the story, both the main one and the Helm's Deep part. What really was the "unforgivable" bit was the whole "we are all running from Edoras to flee the ruination of our people," as opposed to the "we are going forth to meet the coming onslaught" thing.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by azalea
What really was the "unforgivable" bit was the whole "we are all running from Edoras to flee the ruination of our people," as opposed to the "we are going forth to meet the coming onslaught" thing. The "going forth to meet the coming onslaught" was hardly that important considering that they immediately abandoned it once they realised all of Isengard was emptied and the ford was taken. They then fled to Helm's Deep for strategic reasons.

[azalea]

Right, but for brevity I just made up a summing phrase. In the book they were going to Helm's Deep for strategic reasons, but in the movie it is presented as hiding. I feel that this change is quite a substantial one, whereas the elves showing up doesn't change the theme of the episode. PJ's reasons for doing it I'm sure went beyond them just showing up (his whole "men" thing -- having the elves come disproved -- wrong word, but I can't think of the one I want -- Theoden's cynicism as to anyone helping), but either way wouldn't have made a difference as to the eventual outcome. What I see as a change in plot, though, causes all manner of changes in dialogue from the book. Of course we still come around to the same outcome, but not without a wholly different feeling than when we read the same episode in the book. That I think is what it boils down to in my case -- is the feeling I'm getting from this part of the movie at least similar as what I felt in the same part in the book? If it is, then I feel that the part was well done, if not, then it was probably a part I didn't like as well.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by azalea
but in the movie it is presented as hiding.That's why I disagree with you. It isn't protrayed as hiding. Theoden goes to Helm's Deep for the same reasons as in the book. He knows they'll be slaughtered if they ride out to meet Saruman. And he was right. (that's why the number of riders available to him at Edoras was reduced in the film)

[azalea]

Ah, I see what you mean. I just felt it came across a lot wimpier than in the book. And Gandalf, Aragorn, and Gimli agreed w/ me.:) But seriously, as I said, the feeling I got watching it was significantly different than what I feel when reading it. And since that part takes up a large portion of the running time, it then becomes, IMO, a less forgivable change than elves showing up. But as I said, it's just my opinion. Do you think Bombadillo meant for all this in-depth analysis, or maybe he just wanted a yea or nay, lol!

[olsonm]

Originally posted by azalea
Ah, I see what you mean. I just felt it came across a lot wimpier than in the book. And Gandalf, Aragorn, and Gimli agreed w/ me.:) But seriously, as I said, the feeling I got watching it was significantly different than what I feel when reading it. And since that part takes up a large portion of the running time, it then becomes, IMO, a less forgivable change than elves showing up. But as I said, it's just my opinion. Do you think Bombadillo meant for all this in-depth analysis, or maybe he just wanted a yea or nay, lol! I don't know what Bomby wanted but I think we're doing good. :cool: I see the change as simply cutting to the chase for the purpose of simplification. PJ made the decision to combine Eomer and Erkenbrand(plotwise), I think an understable decision, and that had to have ramifications on the rest of the story.

[Ithilwin]

Originally posted by legolas7410
what do you people think of the elfs comming in the movie(the tt)to helmsdeep to help rohan?? do you think they should of stuck to the book??
The elves' coming to Helm's Deep,gave hope to Men.It showed that they still remembered the Last Alliance and would help Men if no one else was to help them.It was a perfect scene,and it was a good decision not to stick to the book,only Men fighting at Helm's Deep could be a bit boring.

[Linaewen]

Yeah, I suppose it may have been less entertaining without the Elves. The purpose of the Elves coming was to show the audience that the Elves cared and were not apathetic to the situation, IMO. I can't remember much of the rest of the movie, so maybe they did demonstrate their kindness or whatever, but I missed it.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by legolas_the_great
the only reason they won in the book was because orks are stupid!


In the book, an army of huorns (sp) also helped in the battle but Legolas and Gandalf were the only ones who fully understood this.