When an oath is not an oath!

[Maedhros]

From the Published Silmarillion:Of the Return of the Noldor
Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father.
I have always wondered how the sons of Fëanor would have acted if Fëanor insted of making his sons keep their oath, would have granted them leave of it.
Would have the proud Maedhros, gone back on his word then? Would many evils would have prevented?
Or was the pride of the Sons of Fëanor too much for them to go back on their word?
Che pensi tu?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion:Of the Return of the Noldor

I have always wondered how the sons of Fëanor would have acted if Fëanor insted of making his sons keep their oath, would have granted them leave of it.
Would have the proud Maedhros, gone back on his word then? Would many evils would have prevented?
Or was the pride of the Sons of Fëanor too much for them to go back on their word?
Che pensi tu? Even had Feanor released them from the oath, it would not have mattered. Evidently because they had sworn the oath and called Varda and Manwe as witness, Feanor had not the power to release them. But had he been able to, I think some of his sons would still have held to it. It always seemed to me that out of all of them, Maglor and Maedhros had the hardest time, because they still tried to remain friends with the other two houses of the Noldor, and they seemed to be tortured by the oath more than any.

[Ruinel]

Agreed. Only the Valar could release them from the Oath.

[Falagar]

Yeah, but when Maglor and Maehros discuss what to do at the end of the Last Battle, wouldn't Maglor have a new argument? Perhaps Maedhros would have listened to him if Fëanor had "released" them before he died (he couldn't actually release them, but he could say that it was ok for them to break it....)

[Artanis]

But even Maedhros percieved at the end that he had lost the right to the SIlmarils, and that the oath was worthless.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
...if Fëanor had "released" them before he died (he couldn't actually release them, but he could say that it was ok for them to break it....)
That would have been way out of character for Fëanor! Fëanor was too proud and selfish to see anything beyond himself, even what was best for his own sons.

[Maedhros]

That would have been way out of character for Fëanor! Fëanor was too proud and selfish to see anything beyond himself, even what was best for his own sons.
I don't understand, why do you refuse the topic in question? I already know what happened in the Quenta, I would like to know what people think if that had happened.

[azalea]

I think some would have found it a relief, or at least have thought it best (to break it), but the others would have thought it best to keep it, in which case the others would probably feel there was no choice but to help their brethrin, and so things would have turned out silmarilly. (:rolleyes: )

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I don't understand, why do you refuse the topic in question? I already know what happened in the Quenta, I would like to know what people think if that had happened.

Ok, sorry... if Fëanor as well as the Valar had released the sons from their oath I think it would have prevented many evils, but not all. Celegorm and Curufin still would have captured Luthien and wished for Finrod's death to take the kingdom of Nargothrond. Celegorm still would have tried to bargain with Thingol for his daughters hand. They were greedy, selfish little buggers and wanted to "advance their power". IMO, chips off the old block.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by azalea
I think some would have found it a relief, or at least have thought it best (to break it), but the others would have thought it best to keep it, in which case the others would probably feel there was no choice but to help their brethrin, and so things would have turned out silmarilly. (:rolleyes: ) Good point. They were seven (or six, depends on which version you follow) taking the oath together, if one of them would wish to express doubts to the others there would always be someone to argue against him. They would be forced to stay loyal to their close kin. It was only when Maedhros and Maglor were the last to be still alive, Maglor expressed his will to repent, but nevertheless he was persuaded to keep the oath.

[Artanis]

I'd just like to mention a 'historical' thing: In the first versions of the Silmarillion, the 'Sketch' and earlier 'Quenta Noldorinwa', it is Maedhros who wants to give up the oath and seek pardon of the Valar in Valinor, and Maglor who denies it. It's in the later version of the Quenta that their roles are switched to be consistent with the published Silmarillion. Funny little detail, I think.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Agreed. Only the Valar could release them from the Oath. I don't think even the Valar could release them. They had sworn by the name of Ilúvatar, and so as Maedhros pointed out (in the Sil) would still be bound by the oath even if the Valar should pardon them. Considering that fact, you could say Maedhros did right to seize the Silmarils and not to submit to the Valar, if the alternative was to go to Valinor and cause a war there.

[Falagar]

Good point. They were seven (or six, depends on which version you follow) taking the oath together, if one of them would wish to express doubts to the others there would always be someone to argue against him.
Six! Go Shibboleth! ;)
I don't think even the Valar could release them. They had sworn by the name of Ilúvatar, and so as Maedhros pointed out (in the Sil) would still be bound by the oath even if the Valar should pardon them. Considering that fact, you could say Maedhros did right to seize the Silmarils and not to submit to the Valar, if the alternative was to go to Valinor and cause a war there.
I've actually thought a little bit about this:
What would have happened if Maedhros (in the Silm) had got it his way? Would they have began to cause trouble in Valinor? Would the oath (as I believe) in the end have burned them so much that they had to do something? If so, then what would they have done? A war would be hard, since I doubt many would have followed them...
And why do Maglor then say "less evil shall we do in breaking it" if they would have done evil deeds in Aman too?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion:Of the Return of the Noldor

I have always wondered how the sons of Fëanor would have acted if Fëanor insted of making his sons keep their oath, would have granted them leave of it.
Would have the proud Maedhros, gone back on his word then? Would many evils would have prevented?
Or was the pride of the Sons of Fëanor too much for them to go back on their word?
Che pensi tu?

I think things could have been very different if Fëanor had persuaded his sons to see the hopelessness of their venture and commanded them to repent. Obviously Fëanor held his sons spellbound just like many other of the Noldor. He had been the driving force behind the rebellion and his will counted for much. If he had changed at the end, the sons might have seen the wisdom of at least giving up their revenge and the quest for the silmarilli. It is not so sure that the Valar could not have pardened them at this pivotal moment.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't think even the Valar could release them. They had sworn by the name of Ilúvatar, and so as Maedhros pointed out (in the Sil) would still be bound by the oath even if the Valar should pardon them. Considering that fact, you could say Maedhros did right to seize the Silmarils and not to submit to the Valar, if the alternative was to go to Valinor and cause a war there.
Manwë was the voice of Ilúvatar for the Children of Ilúvatar. They wouldn't have heard the pardon straight from Ilúvatar but from Manwë or rather messengers of Manwë, more likely. Manwë always took counsel with Ilúvatar before making any really big decision regarding His Children. I expected that he would have again for releasing the sons of Fëanor from their oath.
But even so, what war would they have caused in Valinor? Because of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë? There were no Silmarils in Valinor to fight over.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Six! Go Shibboleth! ;)Well, I think the Shibboleth version was a cruel one. That was a hard stroke to Fëanor, even he didn't deserve that.

I've actually thought a little bit about this:
What would have happened if Maedhros (in the Silm) had got it his way? Would they have began to cause trouble in Valinor? Would the oath (as I believe) in the end have burned them so much that they had to do something? If so, then what would they have done? A war would be hard, since I doubt many would have followed them... I don't understand you. Maedhros did get it his way. Maglor spoke for submittance, Maedhros would not yield. Maedhros was afraid that they would not be released from their oath even if they submitted to the Valar, because only Ilúvatar could set them free. If they submitted and came back to Aman, they would be forced by the oath to try and gain back the Silmarils and so cause a war in the Blessed Realm. They would do so even if they would be them against all the others, as they were when they ceased the Silmarils from Eönwë.And why do Maglor then say "less evil shall we do in breaking it" if they would have done evil deeds in Aman too? To break the oath meant to leave the Silmarils in the keeping of the Valar, and Maglor and Maedhros would not have a reason to try to regain them. Then there would be no more evil deeds originating from them, but they would have to bear the consequences of the oathbreaking.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Manwë was the voice of Ilúvatar for the Children of Ilúvatar. They wouldn't have heard the pardon straight from Ilúvatar but from Manwë or rather messengers of Manwë, more likely. Manwë always took counsel with Ilúvatar before making any really big decision regarding His Children. I expected that he would have again for releasing the sons of Fëanor from their oath. That is true, but it seems like Maedhros didn't think of that possibility. I still think he would not have changed his mind, he would not have believed they would get a pardon and release from Ilúvatar.
But even so, what war would they have caused in Valinor? Because of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë? There were no Silmarils in Valinor to fight over. Eönwë had two Silmarils in his keeping, and was going to bring them back to Valinor. After Maedhros and Maglor had discussed the oath and Maglor had yielded to Maedhros' will, they stole the Silmarils from Eönwë.

[Falagar]

I don't understand you. Maedhros did get it his way. Maglor spoke for submittance, Maedhros would not yield. Maedhros was afraid that they would not be released from their oath even if they submitted to the Valar, because only Ilúvatar could set them free. If they submitted and came back to Aman, they would be forced by the oath to try and gain back the Silmarils and so cause a war in the Blessed Realm. They would do so even if they would be them against all the others, as they were when they ceased the Silmarils from Eönwë.
Ops, surra litt ;)
I meant Maglor, of course.
To break the oath meant to leave the Silmarils in the keeping of the Valar, and Maglor and Maedhros would not have a reason to try to regain them. Then there would be no more evil deeds originating from them, but they would have to bear the consequences of the oathbreaking.
...isn't this almost the opposite of:
If they submitted and came back to Aman, they would be forced by the oath to try and gain back the Silmarils and so cause a war in the Blessed Realm. They would do so even if they would be them against all the others, as they were when they ceased the Silmarils from Eönwë.
Well, I think the Shibboleth version was a cruel one. That was a hard stroke to Fëanor, even he didn't deserve that.

Yes, it was a very hard stroke on him, and I don't think he deserved it. But I like that version better, however cruel it might be.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Manwë was the voice of Ilúvatar for the Children of Ilúvatar. They wouldn't have heard the pardon straight from Ilúvatar but from Manwë or rather messengers of Manwë, more likely. Manwë always took counsel with Ilúvatar before making any really big decision regarding His Children. I expected that he would have again for releasing the sons of Fëanor from their oath.
But even so, what war would they have caused in Valinor? Because of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë? There were no Silmarils in Valinor to fight over. From the published Silmarillion. And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him.
But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens. The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge. Then Maglor desired indeed to submit, for his heart was sorrowful, and he said: The oath says not that we may not bide our time, and it may be that in Valinor all shall be forgiven and forgot, and we shall come into our own in peace.
But Maedhros answered that if they returned to Aman but the favour of the Valar were withheld from them, then their oath would still remain, but its fulfilment be beyond all hope; and he said: 'Who can tell to what dreadful doom we shall come, if we disobey the Powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring war again into their holy realm?'
Yet Maglor still held back, saying: 'If Manwë and Varda themselves deny the fulfilment of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?'
And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?'
'If none can release us,' said Maglor, 'then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.'

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ops, surra litt ;) :p

...isn't this almost the opposite of:Yes, the first is what would happen if they decided to give up the oath without being released from it by the Valar, the last what would happen if they would keep the oath.

[Falagar]

Yes, the first is what would happen if they decided to give up the oath without being released from it by the Valar
But could the Valar release them?

[Artanis]

Good question. I don't think the Valar could do it alone, they would IMO need permission from Ilúvatar through Manwë. Maedhros seemed to believe the Valar could not release them, and Maglor too.

[Falagar]

I'll just have to sum up some of my posts (I'm a little bit confused):
-If they had broken the oath, they would have done less evil than they didt (at least Maglor says so).

-But if they broke the oath, and followed the Valar back to Aman, they would start a war there, thus doing much evil (even though the Valar pardoned them?)...

-They didn't break the oath, killed some guards an ended up getting killed. Is that more evil than starting a war in Aman?

:confused:

[Artanis]

I think we have a communication problem - either I'm totally unable to explain myself, or you're not capable of understanding what I'm saying - which one is nearest the truth you can decide :p

OK, I'm also confused now. I'll try to sum up the alternatives:

1. They hold to the oath, which means they'll have to make war on everyone who will not yield the Silmarils to them. This is the choice they actually made, so they attacked Eönwë, killed the guards and stole the jewels.
2. They submit to the Valar, go to Valinor and recieve pardon from Manwë and Varda, and from Ilúvatar through Manwë, and the Silmarils are given back to them. Then the oath would be made void, and Maedhros and Maglor could live in peace. This is what Maglor hoped for. But it seems like Maedhros didn't think it possible to receive pardon from Ilúvatar.
3. They submit to the Valar and go to Valinor, but do not receive pardon from Manwë/Varda/Ilúvatar, and the Silmarils stay in the keeping of the Valar. Then the oath would still be in work, and they would be forced to go to war in Valinor. This is what Maedhros feared would happen.
4. They break the oath, which means they accept the Silmarils to stay in the keeping of Eönwë, and later Manwë. But still they would not be released from the oath and must bear the consequences of breaking it. This is what Maglor names the lesser evil.

Phew - do this make sense?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ops, surra litt
:confused:

[Artanis]

Norwegian. :D Informal Norwegian, that is. :)

[Falagar]

I know, I shouldn't have done it...but I couldn't resist! :D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I know, I shouldn't have done it...but I couldn't resist! :D
Sorry, you just took me by surprise.