Elrond and Elros' children

[dlk]

My question is how come Elronds children are half-elven when they are 3/4 elf 1/4 human when Elros' children are not being 3/4human and 1/4 elf, similarly with Aragorns children.

dlk
thecalacirya.cjb.net (http://thecalacirya.cjb.net)

[mhomer4]

Because you can't expect an author writing a novel with thousands of pages to pick up on every single minor detail.

[Tar Elenion]

To be more precise the only one of those individuals termed 'Half-Elven' or 'Peredhil' who was genetically 'Half-Elven' was Earendil. Elrond was 56.25% Elven, 37.5% Man and 6.25% Maia. His children were just over 78% Elven, and just under 19% Man. They are called (or perhaps 'entitled') the 'Half-Elven' to reflect their uniquely distiguised ancestry. It is not intended to be an exact description of their genetic makeup (of which JRRT was certainly aware). The children of Aragorn and of Elros are never called the 'Half-Elven' to my knowledge.

Tar-Elenion

[bmilder]

Well, when Elrond and Elros chose to be Elf and Man, respectively, do you think their genetic makeup actually changed at that moment? And how do they choose, they send a letter to the Valar? "Dear Manwe, I would like to be an Elf, thank you." ;)

[arynetrek]

maybe i shoudl try that in my unendign quest to be an Elf.

aryne *

[AngelLord]

When did we all become masters of stats?

[etherealunicorn]

a good substitute for a real life, maybe? :lol:
jk

[easygreen]

When Legolas meets Imrahil in Minas Tirith, he (Legolas) immediately recognizes that the man has elven blood in him.

Where did it come from?

Prior to Aragorn and Arwen, there are supposed to be only 2 unions of the Eldar and Men. But the novel doesn't point it that direction - rather it suggests that there are other un-noted unions of two kindreds.

It's interesting too that if Imharil does have Elros as an ancestor away back, that the elf strain is still detectable in him.

But I don't think that that's what the incident implies. It implies rather that some nameless elves lingered in the west before departing over the sea and mated with the local humans.

[Eruve]

There are other unions of Elves and Men. Imrahil's ancestor had an Elven wife named Mithrellas. She's mentioned in Unfinished Tales ("History od Galadriel and Celeborn").

[easygreen]

Yes, it's coming back to me. What I'm wondering is how to reconcile that with, among other things:


a) Appendix A I.i (The Numenorean Kings): "There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; and Arwen and Aragorn."

and

b) "It is not fitting that the Elder Children of Illuvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise, for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive." (Gwindor to Finduilas in the Sil.)

Any suggestions?

[Fat middle]

i think it´s not only in UT: in LOTR it´s clearly said that there was an extended belief in Gondor about the people of Dol Amroth being engaged with elves of the Amroth kindred.

but as you said that is difficult to reconcile with those quotes

[Eruve]

I don't think there's necessarily a reconciliation to be had. I consider it a contradiction.

[Finn]

I thought Nimrodel had made it into Imrahil's lands (before he was born, of course) and I'd always assumed that's where the elf blood came from....

[Finduilas]

That's pretty much what I thought too.

[adanedhel]

Perhaps there WERE only three unions of the Eldar and the Edain (members of the three houses of Elf-friends). Aragorn was of unmingled Numenorean race, perhaps Imrahil's forebear was not...thus not Edain. (just a theory)

[lindil]

"maybe i shoudl try that in my unendign quest to be an Elf. "
I would suggest raw foods and lots of Tai-Chi Chuan.


as for Imrahil wan'tt the quote about the 3 unions between 'Eldar'? If so Mithrellas [?] was a silvan elf [and quite possibly not one of the Eldar-those who either went to valinor or weere exsposed to the light of Aman via Melian - properly speaking].

[Finduilas]

Interesting distinction.

[Eruve]

That's how I always got around it: Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf, but I can't remember now if Silvan Elves are strictly Eldar. Somehow I think they are. I remember posting something to that effect once on a news group and getting it shot down, in any case. Does anyone know if the "Three Unions" quote somehow survived from a time when the definition of "Eldar" was different and when the definition of "Eldar" became wider, the "Three Unions" bit was just never changed or clarified? Am I making sense?

[Inoldonil]

Here's some things Tolkien had to say about Half-elves in his Letters:

" ....Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'- but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Luthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth 'alive' - though not mingling with other people: a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception received the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way. Earendil is Tuor's son & father of Elros (First King of Numenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Luthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King an 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, thought not the original Numenorean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passess Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."

[Inoldonil]

Eruve, the non-Sindarin wood-elves were not Eldarin. They were the Tarwarwaith, Nandorin Elves who had mingled with Nelyarin Avari.

[Eruve]

Thanks, I was too lazy to look it up. Did you get that from HoME XII?

[Tar Elenion]

By definition the Eldar are ANY of the Quendi who accepted the Summons and went on the Great March, they did not have to complete it. The Nandor are Eldar by definition. The Tawarwaith are comprised of Nandor (who are Nelyarin (Lindarin) Eldar) and Nelyarin (Lindarin) Avari, who are not Eldar, as well as Sindar (who are Eldar). It is not stated whether mixed blood descendants of the two groups woud be considered Eldar or Avari. It is mentioned that some few Avari who came to Beleriand and intermingled with the Sindar were accepted as Eldar. See 'Quendi and Eldar' in War of the Jewels.

[Eruve]

Thanks for a reference. I've just started reading WotJ, so I haven't gotten that far yet.

[Inoldonil]

I have The Peoples of Middle-earth thankfully (got it recently), but that's not where the info is in. You'll find it in Unfinished Tales in the Appendices of Of Galadriel and Celeborn. I don't remember which Appendix, but it's called I think something along the lines of "Of the Silvan Elves" and/or "The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves". Somewhere in that area.

[Inoldonil]

You're quite welcome. I have The Peoples of Middle-earth thankfully (got it recently), but that's not where the info is in. You'll find it in Unfinished Tales in the Appendices of Of Galadriel and Celeborn. I don't remember which Appendix, but it's called I think something along the lines of "Of the Silvan Elves" and/or "The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves". Somewhere in that area.

[Inoldonil]

Tar, although the Sindar of the Woodland Realm can be classified as Wood-elves, I don't think the Silvan's actual name, the Tarwarwaith reffers to them. I could be wrong.

[Tar Elenion]

I don't think you are wrong. I should have clarified my intent a bit more. My post at that point was poorly worded (but I think you understood my intent). Though it could be argued that a variety of Sindar who chose to dwell among and become part of the Nandorin and Avarin inhabitants of the Woodland Realms (seeking a lesser or more natural life), in such a manner as to become hadly distinguishable from them could be considered Tawarwaith (Forest-folk).

[Tar Elenion]

Eruve: I think the 3 Unions quote may have come from such a time. For a while the Nandor were considered Pereldar (Half Eldar) (at this point I think only the Calaquendi and Sindar were Eldar which may be what was being refered to earlier) but I will need to look into it more.
But even then it is still not entirely consistant. It does not address Dior (who by the judgement of Manwe is mortal) and Nimloth (Lindis, Elulil) his wife (one could argue that as a Peredhel he is not being considered of the Edain in that manner (especially if pointing out that Elrond and Celebrian do not count). But then also Arwen was not really an Elda. She was Peredhil (and what of her brothers, did they stay and wed mortals? Unknown but if 'only 3 Unions' must be taken as 'gospel' then no). It is just not entirely consistant (that is not to say that a fit could not be made, but I dont mind the possible contradiction).

[Michael Martinez]

The problem with defining Elven kindreds is that Tolkien changed things around after The Lord of the Rings was published. There were no Nandor in 1954-5 when the book first came out. There were the Eldar, the West-elves, and the East-elves, the Wood-elves. The Eldar included the Sindar and the Noldor, the latter being the High Elves, and (then) unnamed other kindreds which remained in Aman.

So Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was Silvan in origin, and his ancestry therefore did not conflict with the statement that there were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain.

Gwindor's words as reported in The Silmarillion are just one Elf's guess and opinion, nothing more.