Beren and Luthien

[Sister Golden Hair]

I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes? Thingol imprisoned Luthien in the tree house to assure that she would not follow Beren on his quest of the Silmaril, but she escaped and did follow and rescued him from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Why was it so important at that point after she had defied her father's wishes to achieve the quest, knowing that his intent was to accomplish Beren's death?

Btw, what were the marriage customs between Elves and Men? L and C in Morgoth's Ring states clearly the customs of the Elves.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Did not Luthien become mortal when she wed Beren?

[Artanis]

I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes?
After Beren had returned from Angband where Finrod was slain, Luthien did try to persuade Beren to flee with her. She would rather have a life roaming in the wild with Beren than live in solitude in Doriath. But Beren had sworn an oath to Thingol, and he would not break it. Luthien could not make him sway.

I think this part from the Lay of Leithian says all about Beren's mood:
For never more to Doriath
can Beren find the winding path,
though Thingol willed it or allowed;
for to thy father there I vowed
to come not back save to fulfill
the quest of the shining Silmaril,
and win by valour my desire.
"Not rock nor steel nor Morgoth's fire
nor all the power of Elfinesse,
shall keep the gem I would possess":
thus swore I once of Luthien
more fair than any child of Men.
My word, alas! I must achieve,
though sorrow pierce and parting grieve.'
Beren was a wise man IMO. He recognized his doom. Besides, breaking an oath was a grave matter.

Btw, what were the marriage customs between Elves and Men? L and C in Morgoth's Ring states clearly the customs of the Elves.It was hardly enough marriages between Elves and Men to establish a custom. I would think they followed the custom of the people where the wedding took place.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Well...'Laws and Customs' tells us that the giving of the Ellesar from Galadriel to Aragorn was following the usual Eldarin wedding laws of the bridal gift frommother in law to son in law.

So I assume they follow the usual Eldarin laws of marriage, for the most part.

[Fat middle]

I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes? Thingol imprisoned Luthien in the tree house to assure that she would not follow Beren on his quest of the Silmaril, but she escaped and did follow and rescued him from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Why was it so important at that point after she had defied her father's wishes to achieve the quest, knowing that his intent was to accomplish Beren's death?
Beren's love was too great to simply flie with Luthien. if he had done so he would have "forced" her to break with her parents. accepting the quest there was a chance that Luthin might keep both his love and her parent's.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Beren's love was too great to simply flie with Luthien. if he had done so he would have "forced" her to break with her parents. accepting the quest there was a chance that Luthin might keep both his love and her parent's. That's also a good point. Beren didn't want Luthien to go around in the forests with little guard, because he knew that Morgoth and his servants would now be looking for them everywhere. He would rather have Luthien safe in Doriath, guarded by Melian's girdle, even if that meant they would be separated for ever.

[Lalaith]

IMO, Beren didn't want to marry Luthien without Thingol agreeing it.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Lalaith
IMO, Beren didn't want to marry Luthien without Thingol agreeing it.

I agree. He wanted it all to be perfect for them both, so that Luthien wouldn't have to be estranged from her family etc . And like others have said, he wanted to prove his love and his worthiness of Luthien, knowing that Thingol thought him far below her standard.

[Lalaith]

I agree. He wanted it all to be perfect for them both, so that Luthien wouldn't have to be estranged from her family etc . And like others have said, he wanted to prove his love and his worthiness of Luthien, knowing that Thingol thought him far below her standard.
And I agree with you.
:D

[Elfhelm]

It's a classic theme, the disapproving father meddles and ruins life for himself and everyone else.

Why did John avoid Elizabeth as commanded by his guardian? Why did he go off to a horrible existence in the trenches? We might say they were old enough to decide for themselves, but we live in a different world. I don't think Tolkien could bear taking Elizabeth away from the place he called Kortirion. They didn't want scandal to dog their heels for their whole life together. They wanted to be accepted by their families as adults and good future parents. So he went off to fight and imagined Beren and Luthien as a story, and when he came home she nursed him back to health and copied it out neatly into a notebook for him.

So Beren had to go after the Silmaril. In fact, there may have been no Silmaril until Tolkien decided not to elope with Elizabeth. There may have never been any of it without the Silmaril, just a whimsical gyu who imagined the fae still living among the oaks whose checquered past might have interfered with his university (island) future.

Not that I'm saying Tolkien would EVER write allegory. ;)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Wow. That's very insightful, Elfhelm. :) I never thought of that.

One question, though: I thought his wife's name was Edith, not Elizabeth? :confused:

[Linaewen]

Not that I'm saying Tolkien would EVER write allegory.

:eek: Of course not!

[Lalaith]

Have you read the first version of Beren and Luthien in BolT?

[Linaewen]

Who? Me? No, I haven't read any of the HoME yet. I will, just as soon as I finish LotR, then the Hobbit & UT. :)

Why? What about it?

[Lalaith]

You or anybody else.
I've read it (the only part of the 12 HoME books that was translatet into german).
there is also an older version about Beren and Luthien in it. There, Sauron is a Cat.

[Linaewen]

Sorry? A cat? Maybe you should post in the Quotes in other Languages thread. Should be interesting to see other quotes you have. *sigh.. the road of meat...*

[Lalaith]

Yes, a cat. I should check the other language thread.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
You or anybody else.
I've read it (the only part of the 12 HoME books that was translatet into german).
there is also an older version about Beren and Luthien in it. There, Sauron is a Cat.
I've read it also, but I didn't think Sauron was the cat, though. What is his name? I think it started with a "T" and he is the Prince of Cats. Beren ends up working in his kitchen when he is caught. Then Huor ends up killing him when Lúthien goes to rescue Beren.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I've read it also, but I didn't think Sauron was the cat, though. What is his name? I think it started with a "T" and he is the Prince of Cats. Beren ends up working in his kitchen when he is caught. Then Huor ends up killing him when Lúthien goes to rescue Beren.

Tivaldo? Something like that? .... *runs off to check* Tevildo - prince of cats.

[Mirahzi]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Then Huor ends up killing him when Lúthien goes to rescue Beren.
I assume you mean Huan, the Hound of Valinor?

[Lalaith]

Yeah, but I thought that in the explanation of Christopher Tolkien stood that the original form of Sauron was this cat. He is still there in the later form of Beren and Luthien - but not as a cat.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Tivaldo? Something like that? .... *runs off to check* Tevildo - prince of cats.
Ai! That is it!! Tevildo, Prince of Cats!

Mirahzi: yes, thank you, I meant Huan.

Lalaith: it has been a long time since I have read BoLT1&2, so I will have to concede to your knowlege on this. :)

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ai! That is it!! Tevildo, Prince of Cats!

Mirahzi: yes, thank you, I meant Huan.

Lalaith: it has been a long time since I have read BoLT1&2, so I will have to concede to your knowlege on this. :)
It's not long ago when I read this, but I tend to forget things too fast.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
It's not long ago when I read this, but I tend to forget things too fast.
I tend to recall the strangest and most useless of things, and I can not recall the name of most of my neighbors. I just yell to the "Hey, neighbor! How's life treating you?" Isn't that sad?

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I tend to recall the strangest and most useless of things, and I can not recall the name of most of my neighbors. I just yell to the "Hey, neighbor! How's life treating you?" Isn't that sad?
Really, really sad. But I don't remember faces and names at all. My friends stopped introducing me to new people at the nighclub, because I don't remember them the next time.

[Ninquelote]

The Hunting of The Wolf (A ballad.)

The red maw goes to Menegroth
prepared to fight 'til end
those that sung of wolfen wroth;
his fangs wanting to rend

King's hands, bow, and loyal hound
rose to fight that day
a hunt to claim the dark one's crown
Carcharoth to slay

The northern of Esgalduin
The dreaded wolf did lay
The hunters now approached herein
Lured by feral bay

Huan, friend of Lúthien
Left Erchamion
To go seek the wolf out then
But Carcharoth was gone!

Out of a thicket filled with thorns
The Red Maw had sprung
Filled with Melkor's hate and scorns
Upon Thingol he flung

Beren strode to fight the beast
but was smote by prey
Huan lept to stop wolf's feast
and they were led away

Huan, hound of Oromë
Fought the lupine curse
And Carcharoth, to his dismay
sunk into the earth

But in this moment, felled he was,
Erchamion near-dead.
And Huan, victor, raked by claws
Went to Mandos then.

“Farewell,� he said, ere his parting
“We shall meet again.
In Valinor, they will be calling;
Live again, Beren!�

Beleg, Mablung, Doriath
Wept for him that day
Victims of Carcharoth's wrath
A small part in the play.

They slit the belly of the beast
Drawing the jewel wherein
Tinúviel's dowry was the least
To pay the wolf's own sin.

Mablung placed the light of trees
In Beren's living hand
“Now the Quest is achieved.�
But his life would not withstand.

At the feet of HÃ*rilorn
Lúthien awaited
Her lover dead, she did not mourn
Not knowing what was fated

Thus ends the Quest of Silmaril
Cut from Melkor's crown
Release from Bondage yet to end
Until Beleriand sinks down