Faith and Fantasy

[Gwaimir Windgem]

An interesting article on Tolkien's faith and works here (http://www.decentfilms.com/commentary/faithandfantasy.html).

[Ninquelote]

I never really thought of Lord of The Rings as a Christian thing. I dunno, it just kind of ruins it for me on some level, as a strong believer in people rather than God.

Then again, with all this war, my faith has sort of been corrupted.

Anyway, back to Tolkien. It never really struck me as anything Christian because it seems to be a faith all in itself. Tolkienism. Oh yeah.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel,
Silivren penna miriel,
O menel aglar ele...

Erm, what on earth are you taking about? ;)

[Laurus Nobilis]

Interesting article! Thanks for the link. :)
Though he rightly insisted The Lord of the Rings is not an allegorical work, the fact is that Tolkien thought, imagined, and wrote as a Catholic, and his work bears the clear signs of his faith, as he fully intended it should.
That's not surprising- even unconsciously, one writes what one believes. Though there aren't clear signs of Christianity in LotR, the moral is the same.
I hadn't noticed a lot of the details mentioned in the article, though, like Galadriel's Marian figure. That was really interesting. What I *had* caught was the underlying theme of hope.

[Elf Girl]

I agree with Gwaimir.There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes:

Author Joseph Pearce, Tolkien: Man and Myth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898707110/ref=ref=cm_bg_f_1/002-6929363-0104864), said no one should accuse LOTR of being non-Christian or pagan until he has read the first 20 pages of The Silmarillion

[Ninquelote]

Well, seeing as I have never read the bible (and really found no need to do so), I'm not sure. However, I know that Tolkien always insisted that the Ring represented The Machine; something that takes away your free will. Sauron, maybe, could have been the devil and such, but since the only opposite of machine is nature, and if machine is evil, then nature is good, there is a pagan flair to it.
I don't know, maybe my logic is askew.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, Morgoth is the devil. :p

And also actually, Tolkien always insisted that his stories were not allegorical. ;)

[Ninquelote]

Books can be interpreted in many ways.

[markedel]

The ring is machine and is evil-but nothing is inherantly evil, just perverted. Even in LOTR Gandalf says that Sauron was good at the beginning, for that matter so was Morgoth.

[Ninquelote]

Melkor first created discord in the Themes, I think he was evil from the beginning. Sure, he was created with the rest of the Ainur, but each got a different part of Illuvatar's mind.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, I don't think Melkor was evil from the beginning. He was similar to Aule, but his pride overcame him.

[Ninquelote]

Ach, stop contradicting me.

You owe me! I gave you LuDR (http://ludr.cjb.net) and The One Milk! (http://theonemilk.cjb.net)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

True, that, you did. :D

But still, there are many books on the matter. Also, the Letters of Tolkien are a stupendous read; provide great insight into the life of Tolkien and his works, including the Christianity of them. Positively wonderful for those of like faith, and no doubt a great read for those who don't (you can just skip the parts about his faith :p)

[englishnerd]

His letters are an awesome read, GW, and very entertaining. Interesting though...My impression of him is that his faith is pretty much inseperable from his writing and life. I guess now that I think of it, there are specific parts that have more to do with his spirituality. Doesn't he have a great sense of humor?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with you; someone said about Tolkien that when faith is a central part of one's life, one need not write about it, it shines through on every page. But I meant the more faith-based parts. :) Indeed he does. I love Britsh humour. :cool:

[Anglorfin]

I actually did an English paper on this whole idea of faith and Tolkien. It had a lot to do with The Silmarillion as a historical and legendary work.

There are many different aspects of religion and folk-lore in Tolkien's works. I dealt mainly with The Silmarillion because here we are first introduced to the Vala as the "Powers of the World." It seems that the external structure of Tolkien's "gods" resemble more closely the gods of the Greeks, Romans, or the Norsemen. In creating this world of his, Tolkien had to explore every aspect of a person's life, including belief and where or who they recieve their guidance from. Tolkien's form of a higher being was the Vala or Maia.

This is a very abridged version of about two pages I wrote about the connection to Polytheistic cultures. More stuff included the comparison of Men's "gift" with the Christian idea of faithfully accepting mortality as not the end.

The point is that whether or not Tolkien intentionally wrote in allegory, he still needed to create some similarities between our world and his, so that people would better understand it. In this way he created more of a sense of realism. I forget where my actual essay is but if anybody is interested I will try and find it.

[Bombadillo]

I didn't read the article, because I didn't read all the books yet either and so I listened to the warning. But I heard that Tolkien was so against homosexuality and incest that he killed off two gay and incestuous characters.

All while on the topic of 'Tolkien and faith,' I've made an observation: Tolkien is the fantasy god.

[azalea]

I've never heard of any gay characters in Tolkien, but yes, in The Silmarillion there are two characters who have an incestuous relationship w/out knowing they are related, and end up killing themselves. There is a thread about it in the Silmarillion forum.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Anglorfin, you forgot to mention the main high being, Eru, or God, as Tolkien himself often calls him. :) Also the Valar were not really worshipped, but I think rather a kind of Christian approach to pagan pantheions.

Their names being Turin and Nienor. :)

[Melko Belcha]

Hers is a couple of quotes from Letters for those who have not read it.
Letter #142
The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world.
Letter #165
It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorial intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women", but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Of course it wasn't, it was like 5000 B. C.! ;)

[azalea]

OK, now I'm curious about something from that last letter: It says the fact that there are no overt religious practices will be explained in the Silm, etc., when published. Where is the explanation? I'm not saying it's not there, I think it's just my density. Could someone shed light on it for me? I didn't notice any explanation in the Silm. about why no one in LotR "worships" Eru in that sense of the word.
(It doesn't bother me that there isn't any overt religion, I'm just curious about the explanation.)

[Melko Belcha]

Letter #165 was written in June or July of 1955, when he had just got back to work on the Sil.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I would guess that he intended to include it. But I believe it is explained in one of the Letters, tho' I can't dig it up right now, I'll see if I can later. :)

[Fingolfinrox]

Tolkien does have lots of Christian/Catholic (he was a Catholic) morals in them, but you don't need to understand them to read the book. It can be enjoyed just for the sake of a great story. That's what really separates it from books that are allegories, and beat the moral over your head, like the Narnia series by Tolkiens friend.

[Elfhelm]

I see they are still proselytizing here. yawn!

[BeardofPants]

Oh good. Gives me a chance to clip my toenails.

[Anglorfin]

Maybe what Tolkien was implying was simply that he sees religious rituals and practices as a way to remember the benefactors. But in the case of the earlier years of the Silm why would anybody need to "remember" their benefactors (Valar or Maiar and Eru) if they were usually so close or present at least in memory.

To my knowledge I think it was only the Númenóreans who had any particular religious ritual.

[Elfhelm]

Here's an article that I feel is well-written. It takes a different approach to the subject.

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/lord_of_the_rings_return_essay.htm

And if you are curious about pre-monotheistic Hebrew mythology, try this one:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/canaanite-faq.html

If you're really brave, you can read up on Kaballah.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1&letter=C

And here is, in my opinion, some great material on angels. Angels happen to appear a lot in the Bible, and some feel they are adopted from Hebrew mythology.

http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/info.html

Edit: I should have put a link to the Book of Enoch here:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm

I still believe the original urge was to create a pre-Christian mythology for England, not an ur-mythology, not a christianized angelic heirarchy, but the myths and legends that might have existed before the church defeated the bards and supressed their stories.

In my opinion these links debunk the other theories, rather than support them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Fingolfinrox
Tolkien does have lots of Christian/Catholic (he was a Catholic) morals in them, but you don't need to understand them to read the book. It can be enjoyed just for the sake of a great story. That's what really separates it from books that are allegories, and beat the moral over your head, like the Narnia series by Tolkiens friend.

I definitely agree with that. I didn't even know it was a Christian book when I first read it.

Elfhelm, I'm sorry if you consider anything related to Christianity to be proselytisation.

[Elfhelm]

That's one of those left-handed apologies, like, I'm sorry that you're stupid. Yeah right.

There's little "Christian" about LotR. Does anyone turn the other cheek? Ever? Does anyone lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13)? Maybe Boromir... hmph.

Let me add... When is the clear straightforward christian message of Mattew 25:31-40 exemplified in LotR? I don't see it.

The U.S.A. and Canada similarly have no "myths" per se. And there are people, like JRRT, who want to make them. Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha is an example of the same urge. Just because Tolkien in one letter late in life called it esentially Catholic doesn't mean it is. Who Tolkien was when he wrote Beren and Luthien in the trenches, and who he was when he told the tale of Tom Bombadil to his sons and worked out the myths in the Cottage of Lost Play - in which, mind you, the question is asked if the Valar are gods and the answer is given defintely "yes" - was a different man from the writer of those letters.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Okay, I doubt you're going to believe me, after all I am a follower of Evil, er, Christianity, but I sincerely do wish and am sorry that you think that anything having to do with Christianity is proselytisation. As hard as it may be for you to believe, we actually believe that it is the truth, and when we do so, Christianity is a part of us. That's the way it is. And I'm NOT sorry for that.

About that part: There is no "Christ-figure" in Tolkien. Tolkien said that the incarnation of God was a matter which he felt was too great for him to write of. Also, there is the fact that it is set in our world, and Christ came to our world 2000 years ago, according to Christianity. The Lord of the Rings is set in a pre-Christian era.

Sam did, on those ocassions when Frodo went berserk on him.

Pity and mercy, and self-sacrifice, and bearing one's cross, and so many other things are an integral part of Tolkien's work, and of Christianity.

Of course, no one says that it is an allegory, or overtly Christian. But the tales of Tolkien's works, First Age, Second Age, and Third Age have profoundly deep Christian elements in them; fundamental, rather than overt.

Of course, there's also the fact that the man who wrote said so. But if you have determined to know more of Tolkien's intent, purpose, and work than Tolkien himself, little can be done to persuade you otherwise. :)

[Elfhelm]

I have no idea why Tolkien said that, but I do know that it does not gel with his other writings. In the early versions he says they are gods. Then he backed off that stance. But the writing was already done, the cosmology already completed. Which is the true model, the one before and during the writing, or the one he claims in a letter many years later?

And I specifically ask you to show me people feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., which Jesus very clearly states are the core values he wants you and me to have.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The impression I always got was that Tolkien referred to them as gods to avoid confusion. He also said that they were gods in one sense, I think "imaginatively" or maybe "creatively", but that they were not "theologically".

Anywho, I've always felt the last words of Tolkien on a matter to be the most important. :)

[Elfhelm]

Sorry, but I do not accept that they are Christian, or specifically Catholic Christian. I have studied Catholicism as well as Judaism and Gnosticism, and I have studied world mythology for many years. Tolkien's cosmology is Nordic, not Semitic. I have put a lot of links above for people to track and find out for themselves.

John Dos Passos' last words on his trilogy are not the final say, in fact are similarly incorrect.

Artur Rimbaud's last words on his poetry are not the final say and are not correct.

What a writer says at the time of the writing is from inside the experience of the imagination. What he says afterwards is from inside the experience of the reaction of the world to that work.

I'm sure Ezra Pound would have prefered H.D. not to publish his little love poems to her, but they were written and he did feel that way at the time.

And likewise I believe Tolkien was writing a pseudo-pagan mythology of England, not creating some sort of Catholic moral lesson.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I never said it was Semitic. And I definitely agree that it is Nordic. But it is a Christian, and more specifically a Catholic "twist" on Nordic mythology, in my opinion.

I actually do think I agree on that, though I don't presume to be certain on what you mean. I do certainly believe it is "pseudo-pagan", in that it takes certain elements of Pagan mythology and espouses them: but when it comes right down to it, I think that deep at heart, Tolkien's work is Christian, though it most certainly is "pesudo-pagan" in that it sprung from a love for pagan mythology, and espouses many parts of said pagan mythology and beliefs.

[Elfhelm]

The Catholic connection is via angels. I still don't see much of the teachings of Yeshua ben Yosef in there.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And Saints, and Mary, and eucharist...;) And of course God.

As I told you before, pity, mercy, carrying one's cross, serving a greater good at cost to oneself, and various other themes.

But if Frodo had said "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth", that would of kinda blown the "non-overt" thing...;)

Of course, no doubt my Christianity makes me favourably inclined towards thinking it is Christian. And no doubt your anti-Christianity makes you favourable inclined towards thinking it isn't. :) Though as Tolkien was Christian, I think that the previous to be more likely.

[Elfhelm]

hmmm.. I thought it was your belief that the number of converts you make in life influences the size of your heavenly palace, and you were just using this forum to work that odd little pyramid scheme, which also has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings. So I just assumed your continual starting of thread about your religion was based on some sort of afterlife greed. That IS why you all Pros ... I mean bear witness, isn't it? So just go ahead and use JRRT to buy your little stairway, man. I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-decision-without-any-real-study.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Huh? :confused: Where on earth did you get THAT idea? The idea of witnessing is not to buy oneself a bigger palace. The idea of witnessing is that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" "God would that none may perish" "He sent His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him shall not perish, but have ever lasting life". The idea of witnessing is not anything so selfish as adding a room to a heavenly palace. It is that, according to our beliefs, Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father except by me." Uch, I could go on for a long time, but I just do not want to. But I am still absolutely flabberghasted as to where you cooked up that concoction.

Continual starting of thread...and what other threads have I started based on my religion?

Sorry to disappoint you, but Christianity is not about selfishness. :)

Not Anti-Christian? So you are not against Evil, and it's just okay with you? :confused:

[Elfhelm]

You know, if the milk goes sour, it's still milk, but you shouldn't drink it. I like milk just as much as you. I'm just advising you to sniff before drinking, man.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Um...sorry, but as my title tells, I'm halfwitted. Wha???

[Elfhelm]

Matthew 7: 15-30

You know what I mean, don't play dumb. ;)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Who said anything about playing? ;)

I feel compelled to point out that there are but twenty-nine verses. :p

Okay, now I know what you're talking about, but I still fail to see what it has to do with this...:confused:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Anywho, if you want proselytisation, look at Black Breathelizer! He's a religious fanatic, if ever I saw one! :eek:

[Anglorfin]

Whether or not Tolkien put stuff in on purpose or whether it was subliminal is not the issue. Christianity in the books isn't even an issue. Tolkien couldn't create a totally non-allegorical work however hard he tried, because for his story to sound realistic it needed those aspects that would typically define ANY culture, including religion or mythology. So to an extent it is there, it just depends on how hard you want to look.

[Elfhelm]

Yeah, but Beren's hand and Tyr's hand, Fenrir and Carcaroth ... it's Nordic, not Christian.

There are many more examples I could give, while those who are going with the Christian one are basically only saying that Sam was the meek and he is inheriting the earth, and only Christianity has the value about caring for one another, etc. so if ever anyone cares about someone else, it must be Christian. (rolly eyeballs)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think what you want is :rolleyes:. ;)

Indeed, Tolkien's mythology has a very, very strong Nordic base. I never said that it is was based on Christian stories, like Phillip and the Ethopian, or Peter and Simon the sorcerer. It is a beautiful retelling of Nordic mythology from a Christian world-view.

Elfhelm, two questions: Where is Eru in Nordic mythology? First impulse (for me, at any rate) would be to say Odin, but Odin's place is taken by Manwe. So where is Eru?
Secondly: Where did you get that thing about witnessing?:confused: I'm totally stumped on that one.

[Anglorfin]

Nobody said that Tolkien modelled any mythology perfectly or even on purpose. It's just there in his books because it has to be, but it's still uniquely Tolkien despite all the parallelisms we make.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Amen and amen! :D