Crossing the Helcaraxe

[afro-elf]

It took Fingolfin's host 27 years to cross the Helcaraxe.

What did they eat?

What supplies of survival did they bring?

Was magic involved?

[Fat middle]

frozen lembas?:D

[Sween]

maybe they eat polar bears and penguins? seriously though were they really out there for 28 years?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, one of the things that I have always wondered about, was that the host was so large, stretching from front to back, that perhaps it took less time to cross for the first half, but a total of 27 years for the whole. I don't really know what kind of food that climate could offer, especially for that length of time. Interesting.:confused:

[Jonathan]

27 years? I skimmed through the Silmarillion, but I couldn't find any information of how long Fingolfin's march lasted.
Where does it say that they spent 27 years trying to cross the Helcaraxë?

[azalea]

It's so funny that you should start this thread today, because for some reason the word "Helcaraxe" has been in my mind today (I keep saying it in my mind, wondering if I'm pronouncing it correctly!
I think they must have had a lot of supplies, and perhaps did a lot of ice fishing. Is is possible that there were "messenger" types who would ride to get things that were needed? Obviously the nature of the elves was part of the reason for their survival during this: extraordinary physical condition, excellent survival abilities, etc.
I, too, didn't remember that it took 27 years! Yikes!

[Artanis]

Obviously the nature of the elves was part of the reason for their survival during this: extraordinary physical condition, excellent survival abilities, etc.Do Elves need to eat as much as Humans? Is it possible for an Elf to starve to death? How then could Maedhros survive 24 years hanging from Thangorodrim?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Do Elves need to eat as much as Humans? Is it possible for an Elf to starve to death? How then could Maedhros survive 24 years hanging from Thangorodrim? How do we know that he wasn't fed? What do you think happened to Dior's children when they were abandoned in the forest? Elves had to eat. They may not have been human, but they were humanoid.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do we know that he wasn't fed?

Well, he was hanging up out of reach of everyone. What do you think he did? Open his mouth and wait for a bug to fly in? :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do we know that he wasn't fed? What do you think happened to Dior's children when they were abandoned in the forest? Elves had to eat. They may not have been human, but they were humanoid. We don't know if Maedhros were fed, that's partly why I'm asking. So you're saying an Elf could die of starvation, if food was not available? I do not doubt Eluréd and ElurÃ*n starved in the forest, but we don't know if they actually died, or whether they died by other means than hunger.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Artanis
How then could Maedhros survive 24 years hanging from Thangorodrim? 24 years? What's wrong with the elves? They are marcihng across vast ices for 27 years and dingles of a cliff for 24 years.
It isn't mentioned in the Silmarillion how long Maedhros was held by Morgoth, so where from did you get 24 years?

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Jonathan
What's wrong with the elves?

Heh, heh, heh :D ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, he was hanging up out of reach of everyone. What do you think he did? Open his mouth and wait for a bug to fly in? :p Well, his friendly captor could have fed him. He fed Hurin, didn't he?:rolleyes:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Also, I would think that Morgoth's power could have kept him alive without food.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Jonathan
It isn't mentioned in the Silmarillion how long Maedhros was held by Morgoth, so where from did you get 24 years? Someone, I think it was Inderjit Sanghera, got the number of years from 'Grey Annals' in HoME 11. Look in the 'Maedhros' torment' thread.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Someone, I think it was Inderjit Sanghera, got the number of years from 'Grey Annals' in HoME 11. Look in the 'Maedhros' torment' thread.

I really don't know where these years come from because I've got that book (The War of the Jewels). If Maedhros was captured in 1497, then hung from the wall in 1498 (year of the stars, which ends 1500), then rescued in the year of the sun 5... then that's only 7 years. Help me out on this one, please.

Are the years of the Stars considered Valinorian years and thus multiplied by 9+ years? Or, since they've left Valinor this doesn't count anymore. I'm really confused about this.

As far as the Noldor coming to ME... Feanor and the rest leave in 1497 (I suppose, earlier in the same year as Maedhros was captured). So, the path of the Helcaraxe would start the same year, I suppose. Then in 1500... In this time Fingolfin and those that followed him crossed the grinding ice of Helkaraxe, and so came at last with great woe and loss into the North of Endar; and their hearts were filled with bitterness. And even as they set foot upon Middle-Earth, the ages of the Stars were ended, and the time of the Sun and Moon was begun, as is told in the Chronicles of Aman.

So, help me out here. I'm doing the math and only coming up with 3 years.

[Sparky]

I thought there were only 2 ways an elf could die-by weapon or from grief. This confuses me because I recall reading in the Sil that Turgon's wife (don't remember the name) died during the march across the Helcaraxe. How did this happen if elves can only die by weapons or grief?

27 years crossing the Helcaraxe? That's one hell of a long time! Well maybe not to elves since they're immortal. How big was the Helcaraxe anyway?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sparky
I thought there were only 2 ways an elf could die-by weapon or from grief. This confuses me because I recall reading in the Sil that Turgon's wife (don't remember the name) died during the march across the Helcaraxe. How did this happen if elves can only die by weapons or grief?
Those are two instances that are sighted in the Sil, but Turgon's wife was lost on the ice I assume by drowning in the sea. In the Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring, Finrod lists a whole slew of ways that Elves have died. Also I think in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it states that Elves could endure great pain and injury, but they could not withstand violent assaults upon their structures. That does not neccessarily have to mean by weopons.

Finrod also speaks in the Athrabeth about how the Elves drew their sustenance from Arda Marred, and so that tells me that they eat. Was eating crucial for their lives? I would say so. They were flesh and blood creatures, not robots.

Another thing, Tolkien says that the elves were biologically the same as Men.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Also I think in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it states that Elves could endure great pain and injury, but they could not withstand violent assaults upon their structures.

Yeah, I've read this, but I guess I'm stupid, because those sound like the same thing to me?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Yeah, I've read this, but I guess I'm stupid, because those sound like the same thing to me? Yes. I am just saying that violent assault can be any many ways. It does not always have to be by weopons.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I really don't know where these years come from because I've got that book (The War of the Jewels). If Maedhros was captured in 1497, then hung from the wall in 1498 (year of the stars, which ends 1500), then rescued in the year of the sun 5... then that's only 7 years. Help me out on this one, please.

Are the years of the Stars considered Valinorian years and thus multiplied by 9+ years? Or, since they've left Valinor this doesn't count anymore. I'm really confused about this.

As far as the Noldor coming to ME... Feanor and the rest leave in 1497 (I suppose, earlier in the same year as Maedhros was captured). So, the path of the Helcaraxe would start the same year, I suppose. Then in 1500...

So, help me out here. I'm doing the math and only coming up with 3 years.
The count of time by Sun Years would not have started until the Sun rose. So the last 3 years would still be counted in Valinorian Years.
Around 29 years pasted from the destruction of the Tree's to the rising of the Sun. And that ain't a very long time to march to ME. The Great March took almost 200 years. 1105 - 1125 Tree's Years.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
The count of time by Sun Years would not have started until the Sun rose. So the last 3 years would still be counted in Valinorian Years.
Around 29 years pasted from the destruction of the Tree's to the rising of the Sun. And that ain't a very long time to march to ME. The Great March took almost 200 years. 1105 - 1125 Tree's Years.

Awe, see that's what I've been trying to figure out since the beginning. It all says, "in the light of the Trees" but then after The Trees are destroyed what happens to time?
So, then it is not the light of the Trees that make a year worth 9+ years of the sun. It is the lack of the sun that makes the difference. Is this right?

[Melko Belcha]

That's how I see it. Considering that Tolkien wrote the count for the Time of the Trees lasted until 1500 Valinorian Years, but the Trees were destroyed in 1495 (I made a error above).

So from what I can gather ruffley 48 Sun Years passed from the destruction to the Trees to the rising of the Sun. 19 S.Y for the Noldor the reach the Helcaraxe, 29 S.Y for the host of Finglofin to cross the Helcaraxe, and Maedhros hung for 24 S.Y. But the spell Thingol fell under when he met Melian lasted for 212 S.Y, and how he survived has always bothered me. But that's one of the things I love about Tolkien, all the unexplained mysteries.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
The Great March took almost 200 years. 1105 - 1125 Tree's Years. So we have gone from a couple of decades to a couple of centuries? Talk about though elves, being able to survive that long on the ice.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
So we have gone from a couple of decades to a couple of centuries? Talk about though elves, being able to survive that long on the ice.

No, no... The Great March West, when the Elves went west across ME to sail to Valinor.

Helcaraxe is when the Noldor walked east across the ice, back to ME.

[Melko Belcha]

Yeah it is kind off weird, it took them almost 100 years to cross from the Anduin to Beleriand 1115 - 1125. It does say that they strayed at times, and even settled in for a time by the Anduin while Orome road ahead, when the Nandor forsoke the march, but still 100 years.

I have made my own Annuals of Aman and Annuals of Beleriand based on the timeline in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, the Annuals in Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels, plus some of my own little guesses, like I put Durin the Deathless awoke c.1120 Trees Years, during the great Elves march, but I have no evidence to that.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, no... The Great March West, when the Elves went west across ME to sail to Valinor.

Helcaraxe is when the Noldor walked east across the ice, back to ME. Ok, but both of the marches were still very looong ones.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Ok, but both of the marches were still very looong ones.

You could say that again. :D

[azalea]

Re: pain and injury vs. violent assault:
I guess I look at it this way -- Whereas humans are weak and sensitive (bones break easily, skin very sensitive to heat, "Ouch!"), elves are not. Thus, a human falls out of a tree and his leg breaks; an elf's wouldn't. A human would jerk back in pain when he touched a hot pan, but an elf would not be as sensitive (he would feel it, but it wouldn't hurt him). But an elf wouldn't be able to withstand being frozen if trapped in an icy cave or something, I imagine. IOW, minor stuff wouldn't affect them much, but major physical trauma would. That is why humger wouldn't affect them as it would a human, but they could still starve to death if they never got anything to eat. (I guess).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by azalea
Re: pain and injury vs. violent assault:
I guess I look at it this way -- Whereas humans are weak and sensitive (bones break easily, skin very sensitive to heat, "Ouch!"), elves are not. Thus, a human falls out of a tree and his leg breaks; an elf's wouldn't. A human would jerk back in pain when he touched a hot pan, but an elf would not be as sensitive (he would feel it, but it wouldn't hurt him). But an elf wouldn't be able to withstand being frozen if trapped in an icy cave or something, I imagine. IOW, minor stuff wouldn't affect them much, but major physical trauma would. That is why humger wouldn't affect them as it would a human, but they could still starve to death if they never got anything to eat. (I guess). That's exactly right. Elves could endure more physical violence and hardship than humans, and for longer periods, but extream conditions could take their toll or cause death depending on the severity of the condition, like, hunger, or the assault. We know that Eol did not surrvive being thrust from a precipice, nor did Angrod and Aegnor surrvive the fires in the Bragalloch. These are a couple of examples of death occuring without assault by weopons.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
How do we know that he wasn't fed? What do you think happened to Dior's children when they were abandoned in the forest? Elves had to eat. They may not have been human, but they were humanoid.

I thought that Dior's children were humans?

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I thought that Dior's children were humans?
There mother Nimloth was a Sindarin Elf, a kinswoman of Celeborn. So they would have been Half Elves.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
There mother Nimloth was a Sindarin Elf, a kinswoman of Celeborn. So they would have been Half Elves.

ahh yes...I forgot about her:o :rolleyes:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
That's exactly right. Elves could endure more physical violence and hardship than humans, and for longer periods, but extream conditions could take their toll or cause death depending on the severity of the condition, like, hunger, or the assault. We know that Eol did not surrvive being thrust from a precipice, nor did Angrod and Aegnor surrvive the fires in the Bragalloch. These are a couple of examples of death occuring without assault by weopons.

It isn't said what happens to Dior's children. But one of the follow is likely:
a) they were eaten by wolves
b) they were captured by Orcs and either eaten or taken as slaves

Since no bodies were found, I doubt that they starved to death or died due to exposure to the elements. And even so, it would have taken them a long time, being half-Elven.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It isn't said what happens to Dior's children. But one of the follow is likely:
a) they were eaten by wolves
b) they were captured by Orcs and either eaten or taken as slaves

Since no bodies were found, I doubt that they starved to death or died due to exposure to the elements. And even so, it would have taken them a long time, being half-Elven. Just because there were no bodies found doesn't mean they could not have starved to death, or died from the elements. Tolkien says that upon death, the bodies of the Elves dissentigrate very quickly.

[Melko Belcha]

They could have survived for a while, but was lost and could not escape the Drowning of Beleriand, and perished under the wave that covered the land when the Sea's rushed in.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
They could have survived for a while, but was lost and could not escape the Drowning of Beleriand, and perished under the wave that covered the land when the Sea's rushed in. How many years would be between the time they were lost, and the destruction of Beleriand? I think we must remember too, that although they be Elves, they were just little children at the time, and were probably very incapable of finning for themselves for any long period.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Finning for themselves? :confused: I never knew that Elves were fish...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Finning for themselves? :confused: I never knew that Elves were fish... Very funny. Find, OK?:p

[afro-elf]

Fend perhaps?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That's my guess too. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

AE and GW, didn't your moms ever tell you that it's not polite to correct your Elders?:p It's been a long day.

[Ruinel]

I know that Elves can starve to death because in "Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin" in UT, Voronwë's comrads drowned at sea (he was the only survivor of the ship). Then when he and Tuor are making their way to Gondolin there are several references to death. ...said Voronwë, "Have I escaped the mouths of the sea but to lie under the snow?" When Tuor tells Voronwë that he isn't sure if he'll survive the fell weather and hunger, Voronwë replies..."No other choice have we," said Voronwë, "Unless it be to lay us down here and seek the snow-sleep."

So, as far as the cold of the Helkaraxë, the Elves could succumb to it and perish. Especially if the trip took so long.

Elves do not feel hunger like Men, but eventually, it would seem they would also be vulnerable to hunger and thus die. It would just take longer. I would think that the Elves brought some food for the trip, but eventually they had to seek other nurishment. Fish would be available but only seasonally... not sure if they would eat sea mamals. But then this could be why some died along the way.

I would imagine that if I wanted to hang Maedhros from a wall by his right wrist for as long as it pleased me (as Melkor did), I would want to keep him alive as long as I could. If that meant feeding him and giving him water, then I would do it. There's nothing in the book that says either way.

[Artanis]

You got a convincing case, Ruinel.
Fish would be available but only seasonally... not sure if they would eat sea mamals. Why wouldn't they eat sea mammals? :confused:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Why wouldn't they eat sea mammals? :confused:
I'm under the impression that the Elves were vegetarians. However, I would think that in a desperate situation (starve to death or eat a seal) that they would be smart enough to take the life of a friendly beast.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I do not believe that the Noldor were vegetarians.

[Attalus]

I don't think the Noldor were vegetarians, either, but I think Tom Bombadil and Goldberry were. :p

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I do not believe that the Noldor were vegetarians.

Yes, they hunted didn't they. That makes sense, then. I mean, surely they were not hunting broccoli. So, then they would have eaten whatever there was available, be it fish or sea mammal.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

If Elves could succumb to hunger then why was Maedhros able to hang for 20 odd years (WoTJ; HoME 11) from Thangorodrim? I presume he wasn't fed. Or was it because he had just arrived from Aman?

[Falagar]

His mum probably sent with him a lunch-box before he left ;)

Seriously though, I've been wondering on the same thing...

[Sween]

Originally posted by Falagar
His mum probably sent with him a lunch-box before he left ;)

Seriously though, I've been wondering on the same thing...

do you really think morgoth wanted his captive dead he would get a lot more plesure from they having a long (in case of elves neverending) life of torment if fingon had not come to save mederhos he would of been there to see the final destruction of morgoth

[Sister Golden Hair]

It says in the Sil I believe that seldom were the Elves killed that Morgoth captured. So If that is the case, I would say that he fed them. I don't even want to think of what he fed them. Ew!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It says in the Sil I believe that seldom were the Elves killed that Morgoth captured. So If that is the case, I would say that he fed them. I don't even want to think of what he fed them. Ew!
Orcs that didn't meet Melkor's standards. :D

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Most elves that were captured were either enslaved by Morgoth so that they would work in his forges (making swords etc, of which the Noldor were especially skilled) Gwindor being an example of a enslaved Noldor.

Others were 'daunted' by Morgoth's eyes and 'did his bidding' wandering across Beleriand in a trance of sorts, though this is a lot more common in the Lost Tales legenedarium, though as we can see from 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) this idea still existed:

No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands...

This once applied to the 'Northern Sindar' ( i.e the ones under the Finarfians in Dorthonion or Tol-Sirion, or the Feanorians in Eastern Beleriand) who were said to be under the rule of Morgoth and thus Beren's use of Northern Sindarin dialect when speaking to Thingol, would've further insulted Thingol, who despised his Northern kinsmen, though this was evidently just a ephermal idea.

It problably would've been in Morgoth's better intrests to keep the miserable Noldor alive then allow for them to 'escape' to Namo in Mandos with the eventuality of re-incarnation.

[Ruinel]

Good point, Inderjit Sanghera! If you have captives why let them be released in death only to return reborn and fight you again? After all, you took the trouble to capture them in the first place, make it worth your while. Make them work for you. Or, better yet, torture them by hanging them on a wall for 20+ years by their wrist. And with all of this, you have to feed them so they don't starve to death. Because surely, eventually, they would need fuel to sustain their life.

[Ninquelote]

Originally posted by Sparky
I thought there were only 2 ways an elf could die-by weapon or from grief. This confuses me because I recall reading in the Sil that Turgon's wife (don't remember the name) died during the march across the Helcaraxe. How did this happen if elves can only die by weapons or grief?

She could have fallen into the icy water. I believe by 'weapons' they mean by any inflicted wound. I think hypothermia would count. Or maybe she was crushed by moving ice.

[Tar-Elenion]

In the Shibboleth of Fëanor JRRT writes of Elenwë:
"She perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons. He had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save her and his daughter Itaril, whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. Itaril he saved; but the body of Elenwë was covered in fallen ice."

Elves are effected by lack of food and water, witness Beleg after being captured by Túrin's outlaw band:
"Then at the egging of Andróg they left Beleg tied to the tree without food or water, and they sat near eating and drinking; but he said no more to them. When two days and nights had passed in this way they became angry and fearful, and were eager to be gone; and most were now ready to slay the Elf. As night drew down they were all gathered about him, and Ulrad brought a brand from the little fire that was lit in the cave mouth. But at that moment Túrin returned. Coming silently, as was his custom, he stood in the shadows beyond the ring of men, and he saw the haggard face of Beleg in the light of the brand.
Then he was stricken as with a shaft, and as if at the sudden melting of a frost tears long unshed filled his eyes. He sprang out and ran to the tree. "Beleg! Beleg!" he cried. "How have you come hither? And why do you stand so?" At once he cat the bonds from his friend, and Beleg fell forward into his arms."
UT, Narn I Hin...

[Sparky]

Thanx for clearing it up about the ways elves can die. I understand better now.