Lesser rings

[Dunadan]

Does anyone know anything about the many other rings (apart from the Great Rings), "essays in the craft", which Gandalf mentions in The Shadow of the Past in FOTR

Also, when Tolkien talks about "Great Rings", does he mean the One, Three, Seven and Nine, or were there others?

(As usual, sorry if this has already been done. You can imagine that my search for "lesser rings" yielded a whole bunch of hits...)

cheers

d.

[Fat middle]

1. I don't know if Tolkien talks explicitly of the lesser rings in other books, but Saruman wore a ring. People tend to believe that it was a lesser ring.

2. Yes, i think that the great rings were only the 3, 7, 9 and 1.

[Gamigar]

good question. i just wish i had a good answer.

[Elvellyn]

I imagine there would have been. Gandalf didnt freak out when he learned Bilbo's ring was magical.

[Celebriel]

With the exception of the One, the other rings were made by Elven-smiths in Dol Guldur in the south of Mirkwood.

The other rings were simple drafts, used for practice before the three Elven rings were made, correct? Then Sauron offered them to the Dwarves and Men to gain power?

That is all I know.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think the Lesser Rings were used as practice before ALL of the Great Rings, not just the Three.

[Khamûl]

I don't know much about the 'lesser rings'. Fat Middle mentioned that Saruman wore a ring, but I believe that was of his own making. There must have been many lesser rings because of that line from The Hobbit, "There are many magic rings in this world Bilbo Baggins, and none should be used lightly." Or something along those lines because that was from memory.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, I would certainly think it was probably of his own making, as he called himself Ring-maker, I think.

[Fat middle]

i agree that Saruman's ring was probably made by his own. i mentioned it as a lesser ring because i think it has "lesser power" compare with the great rings.

[Dunadan]

The clear implication in Shadow of the Past and the quote Khamul cited was that there were lots of magic rings. It's not 100% clear that the Great Rings are only the 1, 3, 7 and 9, but it's certainly implied.

Gandalf says that the ring's property of bestowing invisibility marked it out as one of the Great Rings. Given that he already knew the whereabouts of the 3 and 9, and that he knew Thror's ring had been lost in Dol Guldur, Bilbo's ring would have to be either the One or one of the other Seven. It would seem to be massively negligent on his part to leave it for 50+ years.

So this leaves us with:
1) there are other "Great Rings";
2) Gandalf was negligent; or
3) it's a plot hole you could drive a camel through.

Hmmm.

[Legolas]

I also have a question concerning the Rins of Power. There is the One Ring named (does it have other names, btw, apart from the One, the Ruling Ring or something along these lines), also the three elven rings (Narya, Nenya and Darya, IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong). However, what about the other rings (the 7 and the 9)? Are they named in any place? If yes, was the naming made by JRR Tolkien himself or deduced by Christopher Tolkien?

[azalea]

Where did Gandalf say that the fact that Bilbo's ring conferred invisibility showed that it was one of the great rings?

[Dunadan]

My mistake, it doesn't say that invisibility showed it to be a Great Ring, but rather that the keeper does not age. Gandalf says in The Shadow of the Past:

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues... And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades.."

He goes on to say:
"I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first."

Further on, there is discussion of his considering consulting Saruman on the matter, who specialised in knowledge of Elven-Rings. This suggests that there may be other "Great Rings" made by the Eregion elves.

cheers

d.

PS - wasn't it Vilya, the third of the Three?

[Fat middle]

yep, Vilya was its name.

i consider proved that Gandalf is guilty of negligence. :mad:

[azalea]

I agree w/ you, FM! I mean, he knew where the three and nine were, so as someone said earlier, it had to be one of the seven or the One! But then if it is implied that other "great" rings were made apart from the main group, that would explain the behavior. I'll have to believe that, or my faith in Gandalf as one of the Wise will be shattered!;)

[Dunadan]

Yeah, they spent so long agonising over it at the Council of Elrond, longer than Hans Blix choosing a sandwich, there has to be others, like Elvellyn said. Which is a bit odd, as I'm sure it specifically states that the Great Rings were just the 3, 7, 9 and One.

[Agburanar]

Gandalf wasn't necessarily to know that lack of ageing was a sign of a great ring when Bilbo found it. Also, he had many other things on his mind, a wizard can't be everywhere at once!

[Dunadan]

You'll note from the quote above that he claims to have known it was a Great Ring right from the start. There must've been quite a few kicking around for him not to freak out immediately.

Anyway, maybe the blue wizards had the other Great Rings, and made balrog wings out of them for Tom Bombadil.

:rolleyes:

Alternatively, this story was one which "grew in the telling" and which we weren't meant to read over and over again picking holes in it.

cheers

d.

[Agburanar]

The Hobbit wasn't originally anything to do with LotR. Dunno if that makes the situation any better??!!!

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Anyway, maybe the blue wizards had the other Great Rings, and made balrog wings out of them for Tom Bombadil.
You forgot Elf ears.

Anyway, that's a good point about knowing it was a great ring from the start, but still I think Tolkien intended the great rings to only be the One, Seven, Nine, and Three.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Agburanar
The Hobbit wasn't originally anything to do with LotR. Dunno if that makes the situation any better??!!!
it couldn't, because LOTR hadn't been conceived when JRRT wrote The Hobbit.

but LOTR was originally intended to be consequent with The Hobbit (2nd edition)

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
You forgot Elf ears.
But I thought elves didn't have ears?

But anyway, it seems that this particular aspect of the plot "shrunk in the telling": in the beginning we were supposed to see this as a world in which magic stuff like Rings, spells, etc was intrinsic and fairly commonplace; as the story unfolds, it shrinks to a smaller and smaller number of individuals and items, and becomes more "special".

Hey ho.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

The rings were made in Dol Guldur? Sorry, but that is not correct.

All the rings beside the One Ring of Sauron were made during the Second Age in Hollin of Eregion. Most if not all were forged by Celebrimbor. The seven and the nine were made with Saurons help, though. Then the three were made by Celebrimbor alone, though with knowledge gained from Sauron.

I suppose the lesser rings were made befoe Celebrimbor was under Sauron's (Annatar's) tutelage.

[Aeryn]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does anyone know anything about the many other rings (apart from the Great Rings), "essays in the craft", which Gandalf mentions in The Shadow of the Past in FOTR

Also, when Tolkien talks about "Great Rings", does he mean the One, Three, Seven and Nine, or were there others?

(As usual, sorry if this has already been done. You can imagine that my search for "lesser rings" yielded a whole bunch of hits...)

cheers

d.

I don't have an answer for the first question, but for the second.

In the Council of Elrond Gimli says that a Rider came and offered them some of their old rings (their meaning the dwarves) in exchange for some valuable information. (the information being about Bilbo and his ring if I am not mistaken)

This gives the impression, to me, that those rings were expendable.

Perhaps he meant just the Elven Rings?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Aeryn
In the Council of Elrond Gimli says that a Rider came and offered them some of their old rings (their meaning the dwarves) in exchange for some valuable information. (the information being about Bilbo and his ring if I am not mistaken)

This gives the impression, to me, that those rings were expendable.
I don't think so. The information about the One Ring would give Sauron the ability to take over ME, not to mention reclaim the Dwarf Ring he would have given them.

[Aragorn_of_the_west]

I agree with elf girl- Sauron didnt care about the 7 as much as for the 1, he could afford to give the ring up in exchange for his control over ME

[Elvedans]

Originally posted by Aeryn
I don't have an answer for the first question, but for the second.

In the Council of Elrond Gimli says that a Rider came and offered them some of their old rings (their meaning the dwarves) in exchange for some valuable information. (the information being about Bilbo and his ring if I am not mistaken)

This gives the impression, to me, that those rings were expendable.

Perhaps he meant just the Elven Rings?

On the one hand, i don't think the Nazgul would have kept to their word. On the other hand, What powers would the dwarven rings have had that Sauron would be overly fussed over? If it led to the One Ring then surely it was worth it?

[Nurvingiel]

Who are potential candidates for having lesser rings then?

We know Saruman has one because he made himself one. What about Aragorn?

Do you think Saruman made Grima one too? Maybe it leant Grima some of Saruman's persuasive powers. I can't imagine why else anyone would listen to him.