women in tolkien's world

[eric]

are there any women in Tolkien's world?
who are they?
why is the SF world mainly aimed at guys?

[bmilder]

Hi Eric, welcome to the board! :)

By "Tolkien's world," do you mean the real life of the author, or the Middle-earth stories? Surely if you've read LotR you would know about Arwen, Galadriel, Eowyn, etc...

[Gilthalion]

Eric is not the first to notice this. While all the ladies bmilder listed are indeed crucial to the stories, excepting Luthien, there's not much action for them.

Tolkien tended to put women on a pedestal. They were more in the fashion of Helen of Troy, rather than Zena, Warrior Princess.

Also SF/Fantasy I think has become more balanced in the last decade, in terms of audience gender.

That's why in THE HOBBITS (http://pub22.ezboard.com/bgreatadventures), the fan fic novel I've written 7 chapters of, I try to very prominently feature some female leads, while trying to retain Tolkien's essential style.

[dunedain lady]

Tolkien does tend to "put women on a pedestal." While Eowyn is the one woman who takes a very active role in the fight for Minas Tirith, Tolkien still does not make her undergo the more basic sufferings of hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and general griminess that the Fellowship goes through.
I've also seen that in the telnet program I play, The Two Towers, there are only about 30% female characters. I don't know what the gender percentage of actual human typists is, but most peope tend to keep the same gender when creating their character.

[Michael Martinez]

Hehe. I didn't know about this thread, but check out my latest Suite101 article, "Guess who's coming to the disaster". Talk about perfect timing. :)

As usual, I started a thread in this forum about the article, and I'll be glad to discuss it with people here on Entmoot.

[easterlinge]

Say, Gilthalion, why not put some Dwarf-women in your story while you're at it? Put a comic twist about it however you wish. Mistaken gender (do Dwarf women have beards?), unrequited love among Dwarves, a workaholic Dwarf-woman wooed by by a hopeless Dwarf, etc...

[Gilthalion]

Bwah ha hah!

I do have one pondering of dwarven women, but I think somethings are better left unexamined... ;)

[easterlinge]

Awwww , Gilthalion!! I skimmed through your site and I thought you're just the guy to write something comical about the Dwarf-ladies.....

Sigh....

Heavier sigh....

;(

[ugluk great]

NONONONO! There IS one dwarf woman mentioned in one of the Tolkien's books. Only one. Forgot her name and where it is said...

[Michael Martinez]

Dis, Thorin's sister, is mentioned in Appendix A.

Technically, six other Dwarf women are mentioned but not named: the mates of the six fathers who were created along with Durin. Durin alone had no mate, and he had to find a wife from among the descendants of the others.

[Inoldonil]

On a side not it's a fact Dwarf-women had beards. It's in The Peoples of Middle-earth, I'll quote it if anyone likes. Unless there's a contradicting source I don't know about.

[easterlinge]

I knew it!!! Dwarf-women have beards!! Now let us have the quotation and inspire old Gilthalion with it, Inoldonil.


Frodo dozed away in the Hall of Fire. He fancied he heard someone playing "Moonlight Sonata" then "Claire de Lune" on the piano. Was it a dream?

He opened his eyes,and saw a group of Elves gathered in a corner, where the music seemed to come from. Dreamily he sauntered over to see who was playing. The Elves were applauding and saying something he couldn't make out.

Frodo found out who was playing, and it was a pleasant surprise. Half in a dream, he leans over the piano and says,

"Play it again, Sam."

[Inoldonil]

'This is followed by the information attributed to Gimli concerning the Dwarf-women, which was preserved in Appendix A (RK p. 360). There is no difference in substance in the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which "would of course be impossible"), and that they have beards. This latter is also in the 1951 revision of the Quenta Silmarillion (XI.205, [character that looks like 'S']5).'

---Christopher Tolkien, quoting his father p. 285

If you're interested, there is also a note on the absence of record concerning the women of the Dwarves:

'They are seldom named in genealogies. They join their husbands' families. But if a son is seen to be 110 or so years younger than his father, this usually indicates an elder daughter. Thorin's sister Dis is named simply because of the gallant death of her sons Fili and Kili in defence of Thorin II. The sentiment of affection for sister's children was strong among all peoples of the Third Age, but less so among the Dwarves than Men or Elves among whom it was strongest.'
---J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 285

[easterlinge]

"But if a son is seen to be 110 or so years younger than his father, this
usually indicates an elder daughter. "

I don't understand. Does it mean they alter records so that females have male names, and also much much younger, regardless of her true age? Seems the Dwarves have a very low opinion about women.

[Inoldonil]

No, that's not it at all. There's no altering of records. If a Dwarf is 110 or so years younger than his father, than he has an older sister _not_ named in that genealogy. Dis is named only because of the gallant death of her sons, Fili and Kili. The older sisters are not named because they do not come into inheritance of Kingship, or Ladyship (as opposed to Lordship), or rule of any kind, being women, which sadly is common in many peoples in our history and Tolkien's, although in Tolkien's mythology it was more common. Tolkien was portraying a primitive and realistic world, so you have unfair laws. But who knows? Maybe it was some strange spiritual belief of the Dwarves, there might be a peculiar explanation about it, as most certainly there is when it comes to the 'why' of Dwarf-women not travelling abroad, and when doing so in secret.

[Elanor]

I think dwarven women must have more feminine beards, and not so coarse as the Dwarves'. More like long silky sideburns that come together under the chin. Very pale, as they apparently stay underground all the time. Perhaps they even have an aversion to the sunlight. Anyway, that's one speculation.

[Eowen TWL]

Well,there's Eowyn and Galadriel and Arwen and Goldberry and Rose Gamgee...The list probably continues,but I acn't think of the rest right now.Not all of these however play a crucial part in LotR.Eowyn(grins) I think plays the most omportant female roll by destroying the king of the Nazgul.Galadriel,too,because she shelters the Company after their 'bout with the balrog.:)

[easterlinge]

There is also silly Ioreth saying "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so the rightful ruler shall be known", and going on and on about the uselessness of athelas. A silly talkative Dunedain seems a contradiction does it not?

[Inoldonil]

Eowyn, there are ofcourse just as many women in Middle-earth as there are Men, if not more. Middle-earth is not another planet, the War of the Ring mythologically takes place 6000 years ago in this reality, so naturally you have a realistic world. Just check the A section in Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth. Lots more women. The original poster was being sarcastic, expressing the opinion that there aren't enough important women in the Lord of the Rings.

Ioreth wasn't a Dunadan, she did not appear to possess much Numenorean blood.

[easterlinge]

Ioreth isn't a Dunadan? How do we know?

I don't remember where she came from. And then there was that odd doctor who rattles off the various names of athelas, decrying its uselessness, and annoying Aragorn.

[Inoldonil]

She came from Lossarnach, which doesn't seem to have very many people of 'High blood' as they say. Their Lord at the time during the War of the Ring was Forlong the Fat. That people were somewhat shorter and swarthier than other peoples, certainly more so than the people of Minas Tirith. The Dunedain, by contrast (or leastways those of purer Numenorean blood) were tall and fair skinned.

[Michael Martinez]

We have no basis for claiming there were or were not a lot of people of Dunadan blood in Lossarnarch. Beregond seems to have been a Dunadan and his father Baranor lived in Lossarnach. And Morwen, the wife of Thengel, came from Lossarnach, but she was a descendant of the Lords of Dol Amroth. And it's not clear whether Forlong was or wasn't a Dunadan.

Short of any statement from Tolkien to the effect of "there were/were not many Dunedain in Lossarnach", we simply have no way of knowing (or of guessing, so far as I can see).

[easterlinge]

If Forlong the fat was a Dunadan, then we can dispense with the stereotyped Dunedain ("tall and proud with sea-grey eyes"). So we can add silly Ioreth and Fat Forlong to the spectrum of Dunedain body-types and psychology.... After all not all Dwarves look alike (Bombur was fat even during the Quest to Erebor), so the Dunedain may vary.

[Eowen TWL]

I know!i just thought I'd list those few that I did to annoy him.:)

[Inoldonil]

I had forgotten about Beregond (and didn't know about Morwen). Do Dunedain suffer from corpulence at all? I always kind of envisioned them with semi-Elven body structure (which would eliminate Forlong, unless he was of far more mixed blood). But I never considered Beregond a Dunadan. How are we to tell, do dark hair and grey eyes always give one away? At any rate Gandalf said Boromir did not have much of the blood of Westernesse, so I wonder very much at it.

[easterlinge]

What does it mean to be a Dunadan? I mean if it's all down to blood, King Theoden would be a Dunadan too.

[Inoldonil]

Eh? Dunedain are a Race of people, they are the descendents of the Numenoreans ('Dunadan' is a loose translation of 'Numenorean'), except that the Druedain (Woses) are not included. The dispute is that everyone in Gondor has mixed blood with lesser peoples, while the Dunedain of the North are dwindling because they never mingled with other peoples.

So there's the question of who in Gondor is a Dunadan, i.e., who has purer Numenorean blood.

[easterlinge]

That's what I meant. Theoden's father Thengel married a Dunadan lady (Morwen, wasn't it? Or was that Denethor's wife?). Theoden's got Dunadan blood in him !!

I think the debate "who's a Dunadan" was really pertinent in Gondor, they even fought the Kinstrife because the King's Heir (I forget who) was part Northman. Since Gondorians are generally watered-down Dunedain there's got to be some kind of criterion?

Or am I picking nits? One of my cats has lice, gotta see how to get rid of them. (The lice, not the cats.)