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afro-elf
03-03-2003, 12:34 AM
Could Fingolfin have bested Sauron?

Cosidering that he gave Morgoth seven wounds that NEVER healed. Do think he could have bested the " lesser" Sauron?

Earniel
03-03-2003, 05:40 AM
I think that depends on the time in which they would fight. In the age when Morgoth ruled, I think Fingolfin could have beaten Sauron in battle if the latter didn't use any of his shape-shifting tricks. But I'm not sure whether Fingolfin could have beaten Sauron when he had grown into power in the third age.

Artanis
03-03-2003, 06:00 AM
Didn't Morgoth become much weaker after he had poured out lots of his power to mar Arda? IIRC even Manwë was surprised when he discovered how much Morgoth had diminished. Not that the valour of Fingolfin is lessened, Morgoth would still be an overwhelming enemy for an Elf.

Regarding Fingolfin vs. Sauron,: Sauron was strong in the Third Age, he had been a servant of Morgoth, but when Morgoth was conquered he inherited the marring, and the orcs and other foul creatures made by his former master. Still I think Fingolfin would have had a fair chance, when it comes to fighting one to one. Even Isildur managed to cut off Sauron's hand.

Mirahzi
03-03-2003, 06:22 AM
Hadn't Sauron already been severely wounded (if not defeated) by Elendil and Gil-galad by the time Isildur cut the ring away?

Anyways, in his duel against Morgoth, Fingolfin was extremely outmatched, because his adversary was quite a bit taller than him (and thus he was unable to deliver any mortal wounds). Sauron, on the other hand was a little closer to bite-sized, no?

In regards to pure physical combat, I believe Fingolfin would have a very good chance of defeating Sauron. However, Sauron's power was more evident in his sorcery than in his combat.

Falagar
03-03-2003, 10:56 AM
Sauron was also more powerful in the second age than Morgoth was in the 1st (can't provide any quote as of yet, but I think I saw it somwhere in HoME 8 or 9).
I'm not really sure on the outcome of the match, it depends on (as has been mentioned) when it would have been fought.

(Herald: "fight of the century! Come and see Fingolfin, High-King of the Noldor in a fight to death with Sauron the Abhorred, Lord of the Nine Nazgûls! Place your bets!")

Gwaimir Windgem
03-03-2003, 11:49 AM
He WAS???? I can hardly believe that! :eek:

Sween
03-03-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Falagar
Sauron was also more powerful in the second age than Morgoth was in the 1st (can't provide any quote as of yet, but I think I saw it somwhere in HoME 8 or 9).
I'm not really sure on the outcome of the match, it depends on (as has been mentioned) when it would have been fought.

(Herald: "fight of the century! Come and see Fingolfin, High-King of the Noldor in a fight to death with Sauron the Abhorred, Lord of the Nine Nazgûls! Place your bets!")

I think not you may of got confused with the definition of power Sauron in the 3rd age probably had a more clear cut power than morgoth did in the first age because of whom he was facing. A falling Gondor, The Elves were leaving, Rohan only so strong. whilst Morgoth had the Elves at the height of there power in middle earth to manage.

Sauron Vs Fingofin wouldbe an intresting one Sauron is a bit of a crappy adversary at the end of the day he always without fail loses in one on one fight he was better at controling armys than fighting in one. Fingofin would of probably beaten sauron IMHO

markedel
03-03-2003, 01:03 PM
No Tolkien did state somewhere (my HoME knowledge is sketchy-but I've read it) that Sauron had more power in the 2nd age then Morgoth-by the 1st age Morgoth had tied up a lot of his power in Arda after all.

Insidious Rex
03-03-2003, 01:04 PM
Are we talking with the ring or without?

Falagar
03-03-2003, 01:51 PM
Well, he had the Ring in the second age...

Radagast The Brown
03-03-2003, 04:57 PM
originally posted by Falagar
The name kinda gives it away.... Yes, and the ring was created from his powers and contained his powers.

Noahamir
03-03-2003, 05:03 PM
My vote is on Fingolfin beating Sauron.

If Haun the Hound was able to defeat Sauron in the first age in single combat, I think that is quite possible for other non-maia to do it also.

I don't think the One Ring increased Sauron's individual power over what he had before forging it. It added to his powers only by controlling others, which wouldn't be helpful in a one-on-one combat situation like Fingolfin had with Morgoth.

I think Sauron killed Gil-Galad with a sneak attack but I will have to re-read the book to double check.

Falagar
03-03-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Yes, and the ring was created from his powers and contained his powers.
Did I say that?

Khamûl
03-04-2003, 12:03 AM
Yeah, I think Fingolfin could have taken Sauron. If a human and one of the last elven kings could take him down, surely the elf who gave Morgoth himself a good fight could have bested him.

Radagast The Brown
03-04-2003, 04:24 PM
originally posted by Falagar
Did I say that?Neh. I said yes, that is true, and added that the ring was created from his power and contained his power.

afro-elf
03-05-2003, 06:40 AM
that Sauron had more power in the 2nd age then Morgoth-by the 1st age Morgoth had tied up a lot of his power in Arda after all.

This has been discussed here before. I think that it meant that his political sway was greater than Morgoth. He ( Sauron) had greater sway or over area than his master did.

Utumno
03-05-2003, 12:14 PM
Maybe you guys are thinking of what is said in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed? I think it is in notes of movites in the Silmarillion, or perhaps elsewhere in the Melkor/Morgoth essay.

To paraphrase : "Sauron was greater, effectively, in the second age than was Morgoth at the end of the First"

I am sure that it says "greater, effectively" the word "powerful" is not used in that statement, but I interpret what is said as meaning that Sauron actually was more powerful at that time.


I believe that if in the same state as he was in when fighting Morgoth, that Fingolfin could have taken down Sauron at the end of the Third age.

afro-elf
03-06-2003, 04:12 AM
am sure that it says "greater, effectively" the word "powerful" is not used in that statement, but I interpret what is said as meaning that Sauron actually was more powerful at that time.


This suggests to me not personal might but effective as in "exerting force or influence"

But the ring adds to one's power of dominion not whoopassness.

So my above about effective power.

But we agree Fin would win

Sween
03-06-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by afro-elf
This suggests to me not personal might but effective as in "exerting force or influence"

But the ring adds to one's power of dominion not whoopassness.

So my above about effective power.

But we agree Fin would win

the way i think of Sauron is a bit like Hittler here was a man of no real particular power (hey he wasnt very tall was he) whom a good deal of us could beat in a fight but he had massive armies at his control and will.

Sauron would never of been as powerfull as Morgoth. Even Sauron wasnt the greatest fighter (wasnt his style) a balrog was probably better at acctual hyand to hand combat than sauron but this is all opinion.

The fact is Saurons ability to fight wasnt great (he allways lost a point which should not be forgotten) the ring did not inhance his fighing so much is was designed simply to control the minds of his servents.

Fingofin would win

Insidious Rex
03-06-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Sween
The fact is Saurons ability to fight wasnt great (he allways lost a point which should not be forgotten) the ring did not inhance his fighing so much is was designed simply to control the minds of his servents.

Fingofin would win

Hmm maybe Im the only one here who doesnt see Sauron as some big softee who is all hot air. Hes maiar after all. I think he would be quite an opponent nevermind the ring or any of his magical abilities. But that aside the ring wasnt JUST about mind control of his minions. It also amplified his aura of fear and intimidation. Most creatures of middle earth cant even deal with being in the same space as him without being violently and helplessly over come by fear and hopelessness. ala the nazgul. Even great warriors trembled and cowered (and probably peed themselves) when they were around. Everything seemed hopeless. Then when they passed things seemed better somehow. Thats a mighty weapon in my book. Its hard to fight someone when yer too busy having a psychological breakdown after all. Now that being said Fingolfin as angry as he was when he went after Morgoth and being a Noldar may have been able to resist this fear auara of Saurons and make a match out of it. But I think a lot of people are writing poor old Sauron off much to easily.

Halbarad of the North
03-26-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Noahamir
My vote is on Fingolfin beating Sauron.

If Haun the Hound was able to defeat Sauron in the first age in single combat, I think that is quite possible for other non-maia to do it also.

I don't think the One Ring increased Sauron's individual power over what he had before forging it. It added to his powers only by controlling others, which wouldn't be helpful in a one-on-one combat situation like Fingolfin had with Morgoth.

I think Sauron killed Gil-Galad with a sneak attack but I will have to re-read the book to double check.




sauron killed gil-galad when they were fighting gil-galad was burned to death by sauron's body heat

Aragorn_of_the_west
04-09-2003, 11:55 AM
But it says in the book that the ring gives power to its bearer
acording to his nature- for example, it gave gollum the power of
being sneaky so he could find secrets ext.
so to a miar being- it would give a lot of power. thats the reason that gandalf would not take it.
although- i would still bet on fingolfin because he had more
phisical powers- he was a fighter and sauron was a commander.

Jonathan
04-16-2003, 07:03 PM
If Fingolfin had an army behind his back, I think he could defeat Saruon. The Last Alliance succeeded in doing that, and an army with Fingolfin as its leader could surely repeat the deeds of the Last Alliance.
However, if Fingolfin was to engage Sauron in single combat, I doubt that Fingolfin would win. The only way he could be victorious was if he managed to cut the Ring of Sauron's finger like Isildur did. And I think Sauron wouldn't let that happen again.

Wayfarer
04-17-2003, 12:31 AM
Depends on the /nature/ of the conflict.

In hand to hand combat, the same way Fingolfin faced Morgoth? I believe Fingolfin could have conquered.

With songs of power, the way Sauron faced Finrod? Not a chance in the world.

Gwaimir Windgem
04-17-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Jonathan
The only way he could be victorious was if he managed to cut the Ring of Sauron's finger like Isildur did. And I think Sauron wouldn't let that happen again.

Isildur didn't cut the ring as portrayed in the movie. He did so AFTER Gil-Galad and Elendil threw him down (and died in the process).

Wayfarer
04-17-2003, 02:18 AM
Yes. Elendil and Gil Galad had either defeated sauron or weakened him to the point that Isildur was able to do so.

I personally suspect that what happened was somewhat analagous to the death of the witch king- Elendil's sword was shattered with the final defeating blow. But that's just my dramatic interpretation.

Falagar
04-17-2003, 03:45 AM
sauron killed gil-galad when they were fighting gil-galad was burned to death by sauron's body heat
I've heard others speak about this, but in which passage in what book (by Tolkien, of course) is it written?

Edit: Oh wait...is it in the Counsel of Elrond?

Wayfarer
04-17-2003, 03:48 AM
That was taken from isildur's diary, in which the newly-crowned king says (of the ring of power):

it misseth, perhaps, the heat of its masters hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so was gil-galad destroyed.

Falagar
04-17-2003, 03:51 AM
But it doesn't say that it was Gil-galad who killed Sauron?
(my brain is working slow to day, it's still early in the morning and I'm about to leave)

Wayfarer
04-17-2003, 04:33 AM
In A Word? No.

Lefty Scaevola
04-17-2003, 05:16 PM
Suaron Killed Gil Galad, it does not give more detail than that above indicating he was burned. We do not know if Gil Galad inflicted serious injury on Suaron. Elendil Mortally wound Suaron, and was crushed/burned/suficated to death when Suaron fell on him, as well as having been wounded (I think) in the figth. Isildur claim to have administed the coup-du-grace to Sauron.

Balrog_of_Morgoth
04-18-2003, 11:22 PM
In my opinion, the way I personally picture the characters, it would be very unlikely that Fingolfin could defeat Sauron and the Ring in the Third Age in a face to face battle. Maiar vs. Elf seems akin to a grown warrior fighting a young boy. They were both about as powerful as they come for their given race, so there would be no particular advantage for Fingolfin in that respect.

But, if you go by the text, which I guess you have to, Fingolfin would stand a good chance of either defeating Sauron outright or at least maiming him to the point where he would flee, like he did fighting Huan.

Here is another way to look at it: Who would you bet on in a fight between Fingolfin in his uttermost rage and the tag team of Elendil and Gil-Galad? I would definitely NOT bet against Fingolfin the Mighty!

Aragorn_of_the_west
04-19-2003, 05:29 AM
I also think that Gil-Galad and Elindil would be lesser off then Fingolfin in a combat vs Sauron because the power of the elf lords in the first age was obviosly more then the lords of the second age

i do think that Sauron was more powerful in the second age then in the first- so Fingolfin would almost surely defeat him in the first age- Tolkien also said that when Fingolfin in his rage seemed to have the power of the Valar in his eyes- meaning that he was very powerful- and evan if Sauron is Maia- Fingolfin would outmatch him with his almost Valar power.

Inderjit Sanghera
04-19-2003, 08:39 AM
Fingolfin would outmatch him with his almost Valar power.

NO elf would ever have near Vala power. Even near Maia was a great achievment.