Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the LOTR?

[Black Breathalizer]

I thought it would be good to create a legitimate place to continue an off-topic discussion that started on another thread about the romance between Arwen and Aragorn.

The question: Is the love story of Aragorn and Arwen important to the telling (movie or book) of the Lord of the Rings?

Earlier comments included:

BB: The only difference from the book is that PJ is focusing on this intriguing love story more than Tolkien did.

Gwaimir Windgem: The reason Tolkien didn't focus on it is because it did not belong in the Lord of the Rings, as he states in his letters.

BB: I don't know what Tolkien's LETTERS say, but the books HE WROTE include the love story of Arwen and Aragorn. Jackson didn't make it up. The only difference between the books and the movies is the level of focus. So don't give us any baloney about this romance not belonging in LOTR. It most certainly does.

Gwaimir Windgem: No, it is in poor keeping with the story. That is why Tolkien relegated it to the Appendices. Sorry about the confusion; he said that, while he liked the story, it did NOT belong with the main story of the Lord of the Rings, and therefore he put it in the back.

What do the rest of you think?

[durin's bane]

Is the Aragorn-Arwen love story important to the Lord of the Rings?


Hmmm....let me think...oh...what's that word...oh yeah. NO.

[Lady of Rohan]

I don't really think that it is all that important. Sure, it is fine to have in there, but if they didn't put it in I wouldn't complain.

[Black Breathalizer]

I always thought that it helped to define Aragorn's character. Obviously Peter Jackson thought so too.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If you just took that silly horse-wrassler out, you could have more time for the development of characters all round, Aragorn's included. :)

[Black Breathalizer]

If you hadn't wasted your time freaking out about cliff falls and helping horses, you'd have noticed that Jackson was brilliantly developing Aragorn's character. :) backatcha :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If you hadn't been busy raving about the divinity of Jackson, you'd have noticed it was just an excuse for more Arwen (including a shot of the *erhem* 'Evenstar').

BackatCHA :)

[Artanis]

Well in the book there's a lot of subtle hints to their love story, so you could say it's in there, forming the background, and giving some of the reasons for Aragorn to act like he does. But so are many other things, references to the Elder days, and history previously unfolded that determines the actions of everyone taking part in the war of the Ring. Much of this background is placed in the appendices. That's why reading the appendices after reading the book the first time, makes you want to read the book one more time, at once!

Conclusion: No, I don't think their love story was essential to the story of the war of the Ring. But the love between Aragorn and Arwen and their marriage was very important to the history of Middle-Earth. It brought a renewed strain of Elvish blood and nobility to the powerful rulers of the kingdom of Men.

About the movie: I basicly think the Aragorn-Arwen scenes suck, mainly because of Liv Tyler. And I'm no male, so I thought the tit-thingy was just plain stupid :rolleyes: So how did the presence of Arwen help to develop Aragorn's character? The only thing I noticed was that Elrond got to show off his rather scary overprotective-father side.

[Lizra]

One didn't play it up enough (Tolkien), the other, too much (Jackson)

I was always somewhat annoyed at this bit in the books. Aragorn cleans up and is with her at Rivendell. Bilbo refers to her with a sentence. Then she sews a banner, and they get married. To skimpy! :) (IMO)

The bit in the movie where she puts the sword to his throat is highly annoying for me. I can't imagine saying hello to the "love of your life", who you haven't seen in ages that way! :(
I think they could have used more "big elvish names"in FoTR. It wouldn't have confused people, it probably would have piqued interest (IMO) , so dumping Glorfingle was not good to me. That decided though, I thought using Arwen in his place was interesting. It beats my mental image of her pouring her heart out into a banner! I'm still digesting TTT.

[BeardofPants]

Nope.

...Oh you want justification? Hmm, well let's see... The story's focal points would be: the development and maturation of the hobbits, the destruction of the ring, the fading of the elves, and the third age, the Great War, etc, etc. Don't see any room for an elf-hussy there, do you? No, I'm sorry, but I don't think that their love story was important to the story line. Whether he had Arwen's love or not, Aragorn would still have been forced to take up his role of king-ship. He would still have been part of the fellowship. He would still have ridden down the paths of the dead. Arwen doesn't have jack-**** to do with the main themes in LOTR.

[LuthienTinuviel]

I think that it is important, but not to LotR.

And BB, you can talk about Arwen and Aragorn's story being important to LotR with out talking about the movies. Then, this thread should be put in the books forum.

EDIT: But, you have to drag Jackson into EVERYTHING so to you, im sure this is different.

[Lizra]

That's interesting Artanis! Yes the appendices are there, but many people might not read them. ( I just skim them quickly, which is painfully obvious sometimes, ;) but I've never been a Tolkien scholar type!) Though the appendices have "nuggets", they can be quite dry and history classish. I don't consider them part of the story proper! That's just me! :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not really. It is more about should they have/should they not have had it.

[azalea]

No, the love "story" isn't important to the telling of either tale, but boy am I glad it was put in both! The story of Aragorn and Arwen was beautiful and romantic. I think it made sense for Tolkien to write it as he did, because inserting the history of their romance in the middle of the book wouldn't have flowed well. He didn't have to flesh out the story in the Appendices, but I for one am glad he did.
I also think PJ was right to include it in the story proper, because it fits well and he certainly doesn't have the option of an appendix. I mean, why not? Why wouldn't he include it? There were of course things I would have done differently, but that has been discussed elsewhere. The movie as written has the dual character focus of Frodo and his quest and Aragorn going from ranger to king. I think that Arwen plays a large role in his motivation (as do other things), and it makes sense to show the audience their relationship. It is explained subtly in the book, but has to be dramatized in the movie if it is to make sense to moviegoers. It is an imaginative, romantic tale that had rich possibilities for dramatization. As I said, why not include it? Although, again, this is not to say I agree w/ all of the decisions he made in including her.

[Nurvingiel]

The character of Arwen was actually added by Tolkien at the last minute. This leads me to believe that he didn't place as much value on it as on other threads of the plot.

The romance between Arwen and Aragorn is a great story, just not one that's important to LotR.

One great thing about Middle-earth is there are so many great stories and characters that we only glimpse for a few moments - enough to get a sense of a world larger than the events you're experiencing.

The Aragorn-Arwen love story is such a story. When we're in LotR, it's not important, and therefore we only see a small part. But it's still part of the richer fabric of Middle-earth, as another great story.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No-one's denying that; it's a fine story. It's just not a part of THE Story, i.e. the one that is told.

[Lady_of_the_Golden_Wood]

NOOOOO! It's not important!!! Arwen is too lovesick in the movie.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The discussion is not concerning whether or not the characters were well-portrayed, or whether or not the roles were well-played, or anything of the sort. The discussion was about whether or not the story is important to the Lord of the Rings, as the title states. :)

[Elvellyn]

Their story is very important to the plot, though not directly involved.

Remember in Return of the King when Gandalf and Aragorn go off and find the Tree? Aragorn was upset because he didn't think he was going to marry Arwen and worried that he would have gone through all this trouble to reclaim the throne, only to have Gondor fall once again due to lack of an heir.:( She was one of Aragorn's motivations to do alot of the things that he did.

So basically I think their story was essential to the plot but not involved with it ;which is why Tolkien left it to the appendixes.
However, as someone stated before, movies can't have appendixes so that wouldn't have worked.

In a movie you can't just have someone show up and say "Hey! Remember me? Let's get married!" Arwen's introduction was needed in the movies to make her likeable and seem worthy of the King before the wedding.( I'm guessing at this point you're still gonna have some people mad because Eowyn didn't get him:p)
Arwen's role in the movies was justified and appropriate IMO.

BB: I think she was very important to the development of Aragorn's character.:D

[Nurvingiel]

Well, I agree she needed to be in the movies, but I don't think she needed as much screen time as she got.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elvellyn
I think she was very important to the development of Aragorn's character.:D How? What we get to see is a man in love with a beautiful woman. Very ordinary. I admit she is backing him up, helping him to believe in his own strength. But I think that role could easily have been filled by other persons.

[Daughter of Elros]

To be diplomatic- No, it wasn't the most iportant part of the plot, by any means. But she was needed. Simple reason being nearly every great movie has some strain of romance in it. Personally, I think that the Arewn that appears is far better than the alernative that was originally written into the script "Xena- Arwen TM" she gives aragorn a softer side- Basically, she makes women jealous and helps them to fall for Aragorn. and you have to admit, if that's what PJ fran and Phillipa were going for, it worked.
-DoE

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Artanis
How? What we get to see is a man in love with a beautiful woman. Very ordinary. I admit she is backing him up, helping him to believe in his own strength. But I think that role could easily have been filled by other persons. Arwen had that special flare, in the book anyway, even if she was added at the last minute. Maybe she was added because she was needed to develop Aragorn's character. But this still doesn't make her super important.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Artanis
How? What we get to see is a man in love with a beautiful woman. Very ordinary. There is very little that is ordinary about their relationship. Arwen and Aragorn's love exemplifies all the major themes of the book but it isn't essential to the story. The only essential aspect of the story is Frodo and Sam's personal journey; the fact that they save the world in the way that they do: with the wise and powerful in a supporting role. All other elements are secondary. I think their love story is as important as Tom Bombadil or the Eowyn/Faramir romance but the story can be told without it/them. However, I'm glad it's a part of this particular adaption.

[azalea]

Another point I thought of:
While I personally would have been happy to have Arwen's role stay true to the book, like it or not modern audiences need a "relationship" with a character like that. If you're going to include her at all, she cannot be relegated to "fairy tale princess" status (no depth, only appearing to fill in for the hero's need for a damsel to wed). Audiences in today's world, where feelings and sensitivity are openly discussed and expected, need to SEE the relationship between the romantic leads, or they won't have a feeling of saticfaction with the relationship, ie, it will be unbelievable. That is why I understand PJ et al's motivation in filling in scenes and dialogue for the two of them.

[Black Breathalizer]

I really think Azalea nailed it. The wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, which was essential to any adaptation of the books would have fallen flat if the audience only identified with the groom. When we finally see the ROTK's grande finale, it will all make much more sense.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That's it BB; when you run out of things to say, just wait for someone to say something, and agree. :D ;)

Seriously, though...

The story should be the same, regardless of it's a movie or a book. Naturally, it would be different, altered for the screen, but still the STORY, the CHARACTERS, and everything like that, should still be the same.

[Nurvingiel]

My point is, the story has importance, but it's not the most important by far.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Correct. It is perfect in the Appendices.

[olsonm]

(in LOTR) I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees. That is why I regard the tale of Aragorn and Arwen as the most important of the Appendices; it is part of the essential story, and is only placed so, because it could not be worked into the main narrative without destorying it's structure: which is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the enoblement (or santification) of the humble.
---The Letters of JRR Tolkien #181

I think in light of the fact that movies don't have appendices, Tolkien would have approved of including their love story (and it's deeper meanings) in some way. Not as a necessary element: but as an optional one. PJ's execution of the story is another matter.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It certainly is.

[olsonm]

Yes it is. But now that we know that the Aragorn/Arwen love story is important to LOTR should we shift the discussion to PJ's execution or is that best done in a new thread?

[azalea]

I think it would be fine to open the discussion in this thread to include critique of Jackson's execution of the story, focusing on how the poster might have executed it. But I think people should still post their opinions on whether or not the love story was important to include in the movie version if they wish, because you know there'll be people who may disagree w/ Tolkien himself anyway!

[Sween]

Arwen is a key part of Aragorn in the books and the movies. Anyone that does not believe so is a fool. You see anyone that has read the tale of Aragorn and Arwen will know that he stumbled across her in the woods in Rivendell and though she was luthien anyway thats all background info. But the point is Elrond says that she will not die for no lesser man tyhan the king of Gondor and Arnor (not exact quote) and that is the point where Aragorn set his sights on the kingship and does everything possiable to get it. It directally after that he leaves to go serve for Rohan and Gondor under tha alias of Thonogil so she has played a very very important role for him in the books.

IMHO the way Jackson has played it out in the movie is no where near as touching she comes across as a bit of a silly girl who just fancies him. The kinda girl thats dateing the guy that smokes for no other reason than hes kinda cute and her perents dont like it. This stems from the fact that Aragorn has rejected kingship so it cannot really work him doing it all for her. The way its playing in the movie it has taken away allmost all of the emotinal reasoning from the book

[Daughter of Elros]

just thought I'd point out. We all agree that the story fits wonderfully in the appendices. And yet, there ARE no such things existing within the movie. so then the romance MUST become a subplot off of the main plot. no way to avoid it. simple.

-DoE

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Sween
IMHO the way Jackson has played it out in the movie is no where near as touching she comes across as a bit of a silly girl who just fancies him. The kinda girl thats dateing the guy that smokes for no other reason than hes kinda cute and her parents dont like it. A silly girl?!??! Based on what? In the movies, Arwen has been seen serving as a source of emotional support for Aragorn. The only possible "silly girl" thing I can think of from the movies is when she cries when Elrond harshly discusses her ultimate loneliness and death if she casts aside her immortality for Aragorn. This strikes me as a very natural reacton--even for an elf who has lived hundreds of years.

I think the truth is that some people here like to rail against Arwen simply because Liv Tyler (the star of some "silly girl" movies) is playing her, not because of her acting or her character's actions.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
A silly girl?!??! Based on what? In the movies, Arwen has been seen serving as a source of emotional support for Aragorn. The only possible "silly girl" thing I can think of from the movies is when she cries when Elrond harshly discusses her ultimate loneliness and death if she casts aside her immortality for Aragorn. This strikes me as a very natural reacton--even for an elf who has lived hundreds of years.

I think the truth is that some people here like to rail against Arwen simply because Liv Tyler (the star of some "silly girl" movies) is playing her, not because of her acting or her character's actions.

At no point does ghe give any indication of how they met or the fact that to a certain extent they were destined to be togther i think the film is missing a lot of destiny a quality which i have allways found facinating.

i have no problem with Liv Tyler apart from the fact i dont see why people think shes fit. But when she says i would rather spend one life time with you and all the kissing and stuff and her strop when aragorn tells her it was just a dream to smack a bit of saved by the bell.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Sween
At no point does she give any indication of how they met or the fact that to a certain extent they were destined to be togther.You might want to watch the FOTR's Arwen-Aragorn love scene again on your VCR.

Originally posted by Sween
i have no problem with Liv Tyler apart from the fact i dont see why people think shes fit. But when she says i would rather spend one life time with you and all the kissing and stuff and her strop when aragorn tells her it was just a dream to smack a bit of saved by the bell. One man's "Lord of the Rings" is another's..."Saved by the Bell"?!?!?!??!!? :eek:

[Nurvingiel]

Is Liv Tyler in Saved by the Bell or something? :confused:

I think Liv Tyler is fine as Arwen. Also, PJ does a pretty good job of portraying the love story. I would have toned it down more, had I been the director, because the love story was very sublte and discrete in the book.

In FotR, I would have done the Flight to the Ford a bit differently. Frodo would have been the one to defy the Nazgul, and I would have left Glorfindel to be the one to give Frodo his horse.

The way this scene was layed out and filmed was beauty. I wouldn't change this at all, just reorganise a few of the characters.

Also, I would delete the scene between Arwen and Elrond in TTT. I didn't feel it contributed much, even though I acknowledge the fact that it explained stuff about elves and mortality that people who didn't read the books can't be expected to know.

Replacing the now deleted Arwen would be flashbacks from Aragorn highlighting the relevant points that Arwen's character was used to explain. I always got the impression, in the books, that Aragorn thought about her a lot.

Edit: spelling is for the weak

[Black Breathalizer]

Thank God that Peter Jackson made these movies and NOT Nurvingiel!!! :D

[azalea]

I suppose if I had done it myself, I would have had the Flight to the Ford stay the same as the book (generally, although I don't mind nearly as much as most people the way PJ did it), and would have included the feast scene where Frodo first sees Arwen. I would have had the same feeling as when PJ intros Arwen (ethereal music, come hither look, glow, whatever), and would have kept the love scene on the bridge the same, including their exchange in the shrine. I would have included a flashback scene in Lothlorien, perhaps w/ Galadriel and Aragorn talking or something, to dramatize when they first met.
In TTT, I would have skipped their whole spat, but I would have included her scene w/ Elrond, although I would have changed it so that it was a different tone and changed the dialogue. I would have kept in the part where he thinks of their conversation (the first flashback scene), but again I would have done things a little differently (ie, camera angles;) -- ooh, I could see a nice shot from above, and a breeze blows through and mingles her hair w/ his. Or from the side, a profile of the two of them, as they look down, and then look up into each other's eyes.)
Just my quick thoughts.:)

[high]

Have any of you got a heart?

Of course its important, it can't all be battle,battle,battle otherwise it would be boring- it shows tenderness in aragorns heart, and also the choice of going with her people who staying with her love.

[Eowyn, Lady of Rohan]

I don't think that the Arwen-Aragorn kissing is really that important. I haven't seen anywhere in the book where that happens.....hmmmmm

[azalea]

I wouldn't define what is important based on whether or not it is dramatized in the book, though. There are things that are implied in the text that are important, and would or did work well acted out. Althought the kissing isn't important per se, it fits in that it shows just how deeply they feel for each other. I wouldn't have cared if it hadn't been included, but it added a nice touch of realism.

[Lizra]

Yes, I like the kissing, (heh heh) I always get a little frustrated in FoTR that they don't embrace more in the pretty shot with the Enya song. I would have been all over my man at the ford, not putting a sword to his throat and making a joke! I don't get that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by high
Have any of you got a heart?

Of course its important, it can't all be battle,battle,battle otherwise it would be boring- it shows tenderness in aragorns heart, and also the choice of going with her people who staying with her love.

The book has very little of their romance in the LOTR proper, but it is hardly all battle, battle, battle.

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe the extra love scenes were added to break up what would otherwise be "battle battle battle" in the movie.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

In a very 'battlo-centric' movie.

[high]

exactly. All Peter Jackson is doing is spiltting up the appendix into each of the three books- to make it more intresting.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't remember her hijacking Asfaloth in the Appendix, or taking the Shards of Narsil to Aragorn. :p

[aragorn_is_mine]

I think what many of you said is very true, The scenes help define Aragorn as a person. They help you understand why he is so secretive especially when Eowyn asks him who gave him the evenstar pendant. He remains silent. If the scenes arent there people who have not read the books will wonder why they maryy, i cant remember who but someone said it is strange that Arwen puts a knife to his throat instead of saying "Hello, I have not seen you for so long". That is exactly why she does not say that. She actually says "Whats this, a ranger caught of his guard?" She is pleased with the fact she caught him. Anywho, you dont want to listen to me all day. Peace out

[Lizra]

She holds her sword to his throat, and makes joke, "What's this, a ranger caught off his guard." I said......if I hadn't seen the love of my life in such a long time, I would not be joking around like that. Reread my posts!

[Nurvingiel]

Welcome aragorn_is_mine, I love yer signature!

It's doesn't really matter how Arwen acts in the movie. The love story isn't super important, Arwen is a plot device to make Aragorn seem more human.

It's relevant, and somewhat important, but there are several plots that are more important. Along those lines, Arwen doesn't get more screen time than the main characters, as it should be.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

One of which I at least would consider to be the Scouring of the Shire.

[aragorn_is_mine]

Hiya again, I agree, it isnt super important but it makes Aragorn who he is. If it didnt take place then he wouldnt do what he sometimes does and it shows that he isnt just a great warrior, it shows he cares about someone. Especially in Middle Earth during those times, you need something to hold onto, Peace out

[Melko Belcha]

I think it is very important to building up Aragorn's character. I could do without Arwen in the Flight to the Ford, but the scenes in Fellowship between Aragorn and Arwen was a nice touch. It showed their love, Arwen's choosing to be mortal, and Arwen's faith in Aragorn.
But after that it was not needed. All the stuff in TT was a waste of time that could have been used else where.

Elrond's treatment to their love in the movie really gets to me. Elrond raised Aragorn in Rivendell, taught him of the past and his heritage, and not to mention that Aragorn was his brothers ancestor.

I think Elrond was happy for their love and that is why he said that Arwen could not marry Aragorn unless he was both King of Anor and Gondor. It helped Aragorn to face his destiny.