The most powerful of the Valor

[AngelLord]

Was is Melkor or Manwe? It seems to be Manwe, being all king and all, But I think one-on-one it'd be melkor.

[Fat middle]

what says the Silmarillion? i think it´s something as "they were brothers in the mind of Eru" or something so. Can anyone remember?

AngelLord, i think you can be interested in reading M.Martinez at the thread about "the nature of prophecy". He made some very wise comments about the "fading" of the Valar while they act in Middle Earth. I don´t think i can explain it well enough, but i believe it can be relevant for your question.

[etherealunicorn]

In Ainulindale, Iluvatar states "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor;"

Later, in Valaquenta, "Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all that dwell therein.

Of Melkor, also in Valaquenta:
"...Melkor, He who arises in Might. But that name he has forfeited... Great might was given to him by Iluvatar, and he was coeval with Manwe. In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had a part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny....From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless."

Perhaps I am mistaken, but the gist of it might help anyway. Think of Melkor as Satan or the Devil or whatever other name you prefer. As I understand it, Lucifer was once the mightiest of God's angels before he got all greedy and ambitious and was given the old heave-ho out of paradise. So it seems to me to be the case with Melkor and his situation.

[AngelLord]

Hmm interesting thought.

[Darth Tater]

What unicorn said

[Fat middle]

good post ethereal.

The christian scholastic theology used to consider that Lucifer would be probably a Seraphim (that is the mightiest of the nine cathegories of angels mentioned in the Bible). However Michael was only an Archangel (that is the second or third lower cathegorie) but he beat Lucifer and throw him to the hell. I think this might be a source of inspiration for the story of Melkor.

[Eruve]

In the beginning, Melkor was the most powerful of all the Valar by far. But he disseminated his power into all the matter of Arda and in the end was greatly diminished. There is a section in Morgoth's Ring on how when Manwe came face to face with Melkor in Utumno, both Manwe and Melkor were surprised how much Melkor had weakened. This is in text VI of the "Myths Transformed" section.

[AngelLord]

Hmm

Hmm Manwe and Melkor

and Lucifer and Michael

what an interesting thought

Maybe LLuvetar(I suck at spelling) is god.

[etherealunicorn]

that's what I personally think, Angel

[Eruve]

Iluvatar is definitely God, no question about it.

[easygreen]

People:

Iluvatar = God
Melkor = Lucifer / Satan
Valor = Big angels
Maia = Lesser angel

Events:

Destruction of Numenore = The Deluge (as in Noah's Ark)

etc etc etc

Tolkien was a Catholic. He wrote an ur-myth that was not incompatible with Christian theology.

[Quickbeam]

Actually there's also a fictional parallel to the destruction of Numenore, one that didn't occur to me while I was reading LotR, but only later when I read 'The Silmarillion'. From near the end of the section entitled 'Akallabeth':

"And even the name of that land perished, and Men spoke thereafter not of Elenna, nor of Andor the Gift that was taken away, nor of Numerore on the confines of the world; but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned toward the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabeth the Downfallen, Atalante in the Eldarin tongue." (Emphasis mine)

To my knowledge this is the only place in Tolkien's works where that word, 'Atalante', appears. As soon as I saw it the light bulb went on above my head, and I felt incredibly stupid for not having thought of the obvious parallel before: The Lost Continent of Atlantis.

[Eruve]

Yes, Numenor is supposed to be Atlantis and one of Tol Eressea's names is Avalone. It's supposed to be Avalon from King Arthur.

[olorin7]

i think that the representation of the valar and the maia would be better discribed with a comparison to the ancient greek or roman gods. I also read that Melkor was originally the greatest of the valar. If this is true though, how did tulkus man handle Melkor before he wasted much of his power. ( when tulkus wrestled Melkor and set him in bonds). Also what will happen to Melkor at the end of the world when the Valar return to Illuvetar

[Inoldonil]

Melkor was undoubtedly the greatest in power and majesty (and certainly in might in one sense or another) among the Valar and Valier. But power was not measured by combat skills. Too often people make that mistake. Have you ever noticed that in due order Nienna is accounted third among the Valier, but Tulkas last among the lords of the Valar?* Nienna's realm of care and talents was pity and mercy, and the wisdom to be found in grief, the hope through suffering. Tulkas represented the 'good side of violence', but evidently Tolkien didn't think that was the best or greatest quality among the Authorities. Melkor as Melkor, 'he that arises in might' was far greater than most of his brethren, and certainly greater than all of them, even Manwe, though they were coeval in some sense (probably they were both created first). Melkor had a share in talents of all the other Valar, and in corruption he was a wielder of ineluctable colds and heats, and as the spirit of Prime Evil nothing in Arda was safe from him. He was the Marrer, and he put the 'marred' in Arda Marred.

In any case I wouldn't say 'man handled', there was a wrestling match after a fashion, there was a fight. When first Tulkas entered Arda, there was no battle between them, Melkor fled because he was afraid, for he alone among the Valar knew fear.

*Save Melkor. He was in the beginning as I said and you realize the greatest, but even without his later drastic diminishment in the dispersing of his powers, in falling into Evil he is accounted least.