The size of the Valar.

[dlk]

How tall do you think the Valar were. Was Morgoth/the balrogs different sizes.

any thoughts

dlk

thecalacirya.cjb.net (http://thecalacirya.cjb.net)

[bmilder]

Well, I've always imagined them as huge, although I don't think there is any evidence to support this.

[Michael Martinez]

They could be as large or as small as they wished, so long as they didn't squander their power.

Ulmo was mountainous when he rose up out of the sea to speak to Tuor at Vinyamar.

[Niffiwan]

It says in the Illustrated Tolkien Encyclopedia that Morgoth was as tall as a tower. There is evidence; he was described many times in Sil as being huge, like during his famous fight with the leader of the elves.
He might have changed from small to big before, but in the first age he had already chosen to stay within that form.

[Darth Tater]

"how many Valar can fit on the tip of a pin?" ;)

[Michael Martinez]

I was reminded of the "angels dancing on pin heads" issue myself. :)

I wouldn't put too much stock on what the ILLUSTRATED TOLKIEN ENCYCLOPEDIA says. That's a David Day book, as I recall.

And THE SILMARILLION doesn't explain WHY Melkor became fixed in the dark lord form but it's because he disseminated so much of his personal strength (power) into other creatures and all of Arda. He became so weak he lost the ability to change his form at will. This is explained in MORGOTH'S RING (which is more trustworthy than any David Day book, although it can be very confusing since it deals with both "canonical" and "non-canonical" material).

Day probably chose the comparison to "tower" because that's a vague word. A tower could be ten feet tall or a thousand feet tall. You can get a rough approximation of Melkor's height by looking at the battle with Fingolfin and the incident where Beren cuts the Silmaril from the iron crown. My guess is he would have been at least twice the height of a tall man or elf, and perhaps three times that height, but not much taller (so figure he stood about 18-20 feet tall).

[dlk]

I've looked through MR and although it talks a lot about him spreading his power it does not mention his being unable to change shape. Do you have I page reference that I may have missed?
I do agree that David Day and R Noel are not very trustworthy.

dlk
thecalacirya.cjb.net (http://thecalacirya.cjb.net)

[Darth Tater]

I used to think the Valar could be any size they wished until I came across this quote from Book of Lost Tales:

"Now all the slopes of that valley and the bare margin of the lake, even the rugged fringes of the hills beyond, are filled with a concourse of folk who gaze in and wonder at the stars, and some sing already with voices that are very beautiful. But Nornore stood upon a hill and was amazed for the beauty of that folk, and because he was a Vala they seemed to him marvellously small and delicate and their faces wistful and tender."

This seems to suggest that the Valar were great and tall, and could not take any form, since he had never seen anything like the faces of the elves.

[Michael Martinez]

The Valar of the BOOK OF LOST TALES are not the Valar of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and THE SILMARILLION.

[Darth Tater]

That is true. However, this thread does not state with works it wants to explore, and since it is in the ME forum I assumed it was looking for answers relating to works other then LOTR and the Sil.

[dlk]

Thanks very much DT though you had already told me:) Michael M could you give me the page chapter no. please.
Thanks. Obviously BOLT is not as weighty a piece of evidance as MR as it is earlier but it is still importent that it is considered.

dlk

thecalacirya.cjb.net (http://thecalacirya.cjb.net)

[Darth Tater]

Yeah, I found it very ammsuing when I realized I had asked the question to someone who had just asked it at Entmoot themselves ;)

[andustar]

i'm pretty sure they could change shape if they wished. doesn't it say somewhere about that? i'l have a look
just because they appear huge at some points doesn't mean theyre always like that, or that they couldn't be anything else if they chose

[Eruve]

I'm in the process of reading Morgoth's Ring, and I think I've come across what Michael was referring to, when he said Morgoth lost his ability to change shape. I have a paperback edition, large in size. The two references I found are both in the "Myths Transformed" section, which contains various bits of text numbered I through XI. Text VII, p. 395 in my edition, states: "Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures."
Further on (p. 399) this same text states: "Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the _hroa_, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it."

[olorin7]

i would think that they could change size if they needed too. Sauron changed his size when when he changed into a wolf. It is said that he turned into an enormous were-wolf, if his size hadn't been increased why would there be such an emphasis on the size of the were-wolf that he transformed into? If a maia could do it couldn,t a Valar?

[Inoldonil]

Well, yes, to the Ainur their bodies were as raiment, and they could go unclad or change it as they willed - except in rare cases. Such as the five Istari that came to Middle-earth or Mogoth's diminishment.

[Lord Xanthyz]

The Valar of the BOOK OF LOST TALES are not the Valar of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and THE SILMARILLION

OH MAN! did i just get confused....:P

Can someone please explain this to me??
Or at least tell me what to read to find this out??

[Inoldonil]

When Tolkien was first writing a 'mythology' (or legendarium as he called it), he was writing a mythology for England, called The Book of Lost Tales. I am not very familiar with its content (although I own some copies, see the bottom of this post above the footnotes), but it is often referred to as 'the old mythology'. It has similarities to the 'new mythology'. There are Valar, and Balrogs, and Dragons and Elves and such things, but they are very different from later conceptions.

Eventually he was asked to published his best children's tale, The Hobbit.* It started out that way, but elements from his mythology inevitably got drawn in. You hear about Gondolin, and Thingol and the Gnomes, etc.. 'Wait a minute! Gnomes?' Yes, the Gnomes. That's what the Noldor were called in the Book of Lost Tales.

After its massive success he was asked to write a sequel to the Hobbit. The earlier work for the Lord of the Rings resembled The Hobbit much more than it does in final forms, and it can in fact be included among the 'older mythology'. Strider, for instance, was not Strider, but Trotter, a hobbit-ranger. The Balrog of Moria was man-high, and the Bridge of Khazad-dum was broken by the intrusion of a Cave-troll upon it. Tolkien revised the Lord of the Rings completely a few times before it reached its final state and became part of the 'new' legendarium.

By this time The Book of Lost Tales was called The Silmarillion, but it was still largely not in accord with the Lord of the Rings, and still largely unfinished.

Tolkien realized that the Lord of the Rings was not really the sequel to The Hobbit, but to the Silmarillion. He therefore wanted the Silmarillion published first, but his publishers didn't like the idea (this is an absurd synopsis, the history is much more intricate). So the Lord of the Rings was published and against his wishes in three Volumes. It was erroneously called a Trilogy.**

After its massive success, the publishers were very enthusiastic about the publication of The Silmarillion, so Tolkien got to work on shaping it up, and although he never ceased working on it and revising it, he also never finished.

So when Christopher Tolkien (after the death of his father) was putting together The Silmarillion, he had some tough decisions. A lot of it he had to take from the old mythology, The Book of Lost Tales, but he attempted to keep the congruence with the Lord of the Rings by editing it without changing the overall sense. Remember that man-high Balrog in Moria? Very different from his new one that was published. Yet Tolkien never revised the Balrogs of the Book of Lost Tales, they're completely different creatures. There are at least thousands of them, and they ride into battle, they are man-high demons. Seemingly the only passage Tolkien touched on the subject was one in which the Balrogs rush to save Morgoth from Ungoliant with 'winged speed', 'like a tempest of fire', which is a violent storm. He also noted once that the duel between Glorfindel and the Balrog needed revision.

It is clear the Book of Lost Tales Balrogs did not have wings, but those are mostly the ones Christopher put into the published Silmarillion.

Actually Tolkien later noted there should be only seven Balrogs altogether.

So you can imagine that the Valar were different, although I am not learned in the exact details. Some Maiar were Valar back then, like Osse, and some Valar were Maiar, like Este. In fact I believe there weren't Maiar, only the Children of the Valar. Eonwe was Manwe's son back then and he had a different (if similar) name.

Does this help at all, or have I rendered you helplessly confused? That was a lot to throw at you.

The Book of Lost Tales Parts I and II are the first two volumes in The History of Middle-earth series.


*This was before Tolkien decided fairy stories are not actually for children, he later regretted many of the elements he put in there - but at the same time felt bound by them.

**It is also called a novel often, or more often 'novels', since it is thought to be a trilogy as well. Tolkien said The Lord of the Rings is a heroic romance, a much older style of literature.

[Lord Xanthyz]

I get how the Balrogs were different...but I am still slightly confused about the Valar being different, unless they are only different by who was a Valar and Maiar in The Book of Lost Tales...

[Inoldonil]

You'd have to read it. They simply had different characteristics, relations and functions, sometimes different names.

[Lord Xanthyz]

Okay, I think I will read the Lost Tales after I read the HoME books...I think that would be a better way to go...