Saruman's Motives

[Insidious Rex]

Question to the floor: Just what were Sarumans motives in the Lord of the Rings exactly? It seems he wanted to pursue the ring for himself sometimes and at other times he speaks of working with/for Sauron. Surely Saruman was smart enough to know Sauron would never do this. Or did he really think he would give him a little fiefdom around Orthanc for his own purposes and leave him alone? My thinking is he wanted the ring for himself and didnt want Sauron in the picture at all really which is why he kept it so secret at first but then he held off attacking Sauron when Sauron was at Dol Guldur which makes you think well maybe he wanted to ally with him. But then of course he does attack him and is the main reason they drove him out. So whats the deal. Was it just all about getting a hold of the ring and being The Man or was it about some kind of evil alliance? He was after all doing Saurons bidding by making an army and keeping the men occupied in Rohan so Saurons forces would have less opposition to face.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Saruman wanted the Ring for himself. He started out pretending to be loyal to Sauron, but then struck out on his own. I expect that Sauron would have given him a little fiefdom, for two main reasons (actually, one main reason divided into two subreasons).

1. Saruman was a Maia, and the Head of the Order of the Istari; no doubt a powerful Maia indeed.
a. Having one such as Saruman as a subordinate would have no doubt been quite useful.
b. Having one such as Saruman as an enemy would have no doubt been quite a nuisance.

Of course, that's just my guess. :)

[Lalaith]

I wonder why Sauron cooperated with Saruman. He must have guessed that Saruman (and every other person) would take the ring for himself.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I think he was really planning to betray Saruman after his goals were achieved: replacing Saruman with a lieutenant more worthy of trust (read: a mindless slave).

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
I think he was really planning to betray Saruman after his goals were achieved: replacing Saruman with a lieutenant more worthy of trust (read: a mindless slave).

if the balrog had survived this could have made the competition for second lieutenant interesting. But Im thinking Sauron was only interested in being The One. And he knew very well Saruman would vie for the ring with him. But yet having a henchman like Saruman is a lot like Morgoth having a henchman like Sauron. So why not.

[Elvellyn]

But yet having a henchman like Saruman is a lot like Morgoth having a henchman like Sauron. So why not.

And after Morgoth was defeated, Sauron became the Dark Lord right?
Maybe thats what Saruman wanted. But I think he always wanted the ring for himself and only got buddy-buddy with Sauron because he thought Sauron would trust him and maybe tell him where the Ring was.

[Artanis]

I think Saruman was after the Ring for himself all the time. But he was not evil to begin with, his intentions were good. He may have thought he could wield the Ring and use it for good purposes. I don't think he ever understood what Gandalf always knew, that the Ring would conquer him in the end.

It is clear that Saruman used the palantir to be in contact with Sauron. They had a plot going together, to hinder the Ring-bearer and get hold on the Ring. But I think each of them planned to betray the other. Saruman wanted to be the next Ring-Lord, and deemed himself strong enough to overthrow Sauron if he only could get hold of the Ring. Sauron would have knocked Saruman away with his little finger if he had got the Ring back.

[gimli7410]

i think if saruman had the ring or not he would not be able to compete against sauron. sauron already had more orcs then saruman because the ents wiped out the orcs saruman had so either way saruman would have lost

[azalea]

I think they were playing games w/ each other. Each knew the other was just pretending to be an ally, and each one knew the other one knew that, but they played the game anyway. Saruman knew that Sauron getting the ring would not be in his own (Saruman's) best interest, and Sauron was suspicious of everyone I'm sure. But I don't think Saruman had always intended to get the ring for himself to use, but over time the thought grew in his mind and twisted him, until he became what we see in the books.

[Lalaith]

i think if saruman had the ring or not he would not be able to compete against sauron. sauron already had more orcs then saruman because the ents wiped out the orcs saruman had so either way saruman would have lost
I wouldn't say that. If the ring wasn't strong enough to defeat even Sauron why did Sauron fear that his enemies would use the ring?

[Aranwe]

And Saruman managed to breed/gather an army of 10,000 Uruk-Hai/wild men in a very short space of time... from when gandalf visited to when the attack on helms deep came it couldn't have been more than a week or two, and he had the whole of fangorn forest to fuel his industry.

As for his motives... he definately wanted the ring for himself. Otherwise he would have told Sauron that Frodo was trying to destroy the ring, and Sauron wouldn't have made his attack too soon.

His plan was to capture the ring for himself and use it to overthrow Sauron, although whether it would have actually worked is another matter.

[Elf Girl]

Perhaps Saruman actually thought the Sauron knew where the Ring was, so be forming an alliance, he could find out for himself?

[Aranwe]

Sauron DID know where the ring was to some extent. He knew it was being carried by a Hobbit with 3 other Hobbit companions and a Man, heading towards Rivendell.

The only advantage Saruman had over Sauron is that, from being good himself once and being the head of the white council, he knew that Elrond/Gandalf/Galadriel would be trying to destroy the ring rather than use it.

Sauron thought they would take it to Gondor and use it against him, which is why his eye was turned towards Gondor rather than his own land.

If Saruman had told Sauron that they were trying to destroy the ring Sauron would have been watching Cirith Ungol, his armies would have stayed in Mordor and so would the wraiths.

There's no way Frodo could have suceeded against all that, but Saruman knew that if Sauron got the ring he'd never have a chance of getting it for himself.

He also orders his Uruk-Hai to bring the hobbits back to Isengard, not Mordor.

[Lalaith]

I don't believe that Saruman actually knew that they wanted to destroy the ring. Maybe he thought like Sauron that they never would destroy a thing of such power.
And another thing. Saruman had a palantir, why didn't he see, that the Uruk-Hai had the wrong Hobbits captured?

[Artanis]

I'm with Lalaith here. Saruman did not know that Frodo was going to Mordor to destroy the Ring. That's why it would be a catastrophy to the quest if Merry and Pippin were brought to Isengard, even if they didn't carry the Ring. They would have been put to torment, and they may have revealed the real purpose of their journey, to both Saruman and Sauron.

I think Saruman, like Sauron, had become to ensnared by the power of the Ring, that he could not imagine anyone actually wanting to destroy it.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Aranwe
Sauron DID know where the ring was to some extent. He knew it was being carried by a Hobbit with 3 other Hobbit companions and a Man, heading towards Rivendell.
But the alliance between Saruman and Sauron was forged before then, right?

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Lalaith
And another thing. Saruman had a palantir, why didn't he see, that the Uruk-Hai had the wrong Hobbits captured? Sauron had control of that palantir and wouldn't let Saruman focus it anywhere but on Sauron himself. Aragorn broke Sauron's control over that palantir in ROTK.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
But the alliance between Saruman and Sauron was forged before then, right? Yes. It wasn't so much an alliance as Sauron ensnaring Saruman via the palantir (c. 3000 III). Saruman dared to look into his seeing stone and was captured.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Aranwe
... from when gandalf visited to when the attack on helms deep came it couldn't have been more than a week or two...



Do you mean from the time he was imprisoned in Orthanc to the time of the Battle of the Hornburg? It was almost eight months. And Saruman had already started his army when Gandalf was imprisoned. In reading through that part, it is apparent that Saruman wants the Ring for himself already, but it seems that his plan is to pretend to be an ally of Sauron in case Sauron gets it first.

[Lalaith]

How can anybody not beeing evil understand the thoughts and purposes of an evil person?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lalaith
How can anybody not beeing evil understand the thoughts and purposes of an evil person?

oh I think its safe to say we all have a little bit of Sauron in us. ;) We are all corruptable and have dark parts in our heart somewhere. Some more then others. But yeah there is a gap there between human imperfection and super demigod genious evil. And thats why theres speculation.

[Lalaith]

But I guess thats the point of books, you have to guess how it feels to be the hero or the villain.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh I think its safe to say we all have a little bit of Sauron in us. ;) We are all corruptable and have dark parts in our heart somewhere. Some more then others. But yeah there is a gap there between human imperfection and super demigod genious evil. And thats why theres speculation.

O yeah, I'm all Sauron. Beware.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by azalea
I think they were playing games w/ each other. Each knew the other was just pretending to be an ally, and each one knew the other one knew that, but they played the game anyway. Saruman knew that Sauron getting the ring would not be in his own (Saruman's) best interest, and Sauron was suspicious of everyone I'm sure. But I don't think Saruman had always intended to get the ring for himself to use, but over time the thought grew in his mind and twisted him, until he became what we see in the books.
I think Azalea's basically hit the nail on the head.

Saruman's alliance with Sauron was only a game--much like the pre-war alliance of Hitler with Stalin--each planned to double-cross the other when they had the upper hand. But I disagree on one point-- From what Sauron told Pippin when the foolofatook looked into the seeing-stone, Sauron seemed to think that Saruman would hand the ring and the hobbits over to him. I think he overestimated his own ability to control Saruman. He, like Saruman, had a blind spot caused by his own pride.

[Lalaith]

Pride and Power. Not a good combination at all.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Lalaith
How can anybody not beeing evil understand the thoughts and purposes of an evil person?
And those who are evil do not understand the thoughts and purposes of good.

[Dunadan]

Hello

Just back from a short break, so here's my tuppence worth.

I seem to recall Gandalf saying, in TTT, that Sauron was "in great fear", as he did not know who would seize the Ring and challenge him. Certainly, this would include Saruman, who was arguably the most powerful entity in Middle Earth after Sauron. Earlier, he states that Saruman specifically wanted to find the Ring for himself for a long time.

Remembering Sauron's words to Pippin:
It is not for you, Saruman. I will send for it at once.
it's clear that Sauron knew this. And later, we discover that Saruman could (and did) withstand the Nazgul within Orthanc, even without the Ring. Of course, Sauron believes that Saruman (or others) may have it, which triggers his attack.

This is one of my favourite aspects of the book, which was left out of the movie, and I'm praying they'll reinstate in ROTK.

(PS - it does make me think about Saruman's attack on Rohan. If he really did want the Ring, he'd know that as soon as he found it, Sauron would hit him with everything he could. What better cannon fodder could Saruman have than the Rohirrim to buffer him from attack? So why did he attack Rohan?)

I think that the story of Saruman is less about good not being able to understand evil, nor vice versa, than about becoming "enamoured of the arts of the enemy" and being lured into pride and conceit.

cheers

d.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Dunadan
(PS - it does make me think about Saruman's attack on Rohan. If he really did want the Ring, he'd know that as soon as he found it, Sauron would hit him with everything he could. What better cannon fodder could Saruman have than the Rohirrim to buffer him from attack? So why did he attack Rohan?)


Saruman, in his speach to Gandalf, basically laid out his plan. He had two options (A) to enlist Gandalf's aid, recover the ring, and challenge Sauron openly and (B) to pretend to ally himself with Sauron, decieve him, and somehow wrest power away from him. Saruman hoped that Gandalf would go along with his scheme. When it became clear that Gandalf wanted no part of it, he had to proceed with plan B, because he knew to challenge Sauron by himself would be folly.

The evil misunderstood the motives of the good which lead to their ruin.

Saruman thought that Gandalf, also lusted for power and would be enticed by his vision of a new hegemony. That's why he took the chance on revealing his plan. Sauron, likewise never thought that the forces of good would actually contrive to destroy the ring. Both resulted in their downfall.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
(PS - it does make me think about Saruman's attack on Rohan. If he really did want the Ring, he'd know that as soon as he found it, Sauron would hit him with everything he could. What better cannon fodder could Saruman have than the Rohirrim to buffer him from attack? So why did he attack Rohan?)

Well probably for a couple reasons. Sauron wanted him to of course so that the defense of Gondor would be lessened. And Saruman, even if he had designs of world domination himself, was still playing along with Sauron at that point. Also, if Gondor was to be victorious then suddenly he would have to face BOTH Rohan and the remnents of Gondor AND at that point all the reinforcements from the various other kingdoms around middle earth that didnt have time to organize for the Helms Deep attack. Plus it would just be a great land grab anyway. Lets assume Gondor fell and Rohan fell. Saruman would then control most of middle earth really. And Saurons forces would have to advance on him.

EDIT: barrelrider110 you beat me to that little nugget in there I see.

[cassiopeia]

In the Letters of JRR Tolkien he says (#181):
They [wizards] were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possiblility of 'fall', of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means. To this evil Saruman succumbed.
So, regarding the question at the beginning of this thread, Saruman wanted the ring for himself, so he could force his will upon others.