Are Elves Immortal

[AngelLord]

I think they are.

If sais in the song of Treebeard..

First, eldest of all, the elf-children.


Are elves older or are Ents older?

Ent the Earthborn, Old as mountains...

[Eruve]

Ents are older than Elves. I think Treebeard says something about being around when the Elves awoke.

Elves are immortal in a sense. They can be slain or die of grief, but if this doesn't happen, they do go on living, seemingly forever. However, in reality, Elves have the same life as Arda. When Arda ends so will the Elves (possibly, really, it isn't known what will happen to them). An Elf that has been slain or dies of grief may be re-incarnated after an appropriate time spent in the Halls of Mandos (the length of time spent there is determined by Mandos based on how "good" the Elf was).

[Fat middle]

what Eruve said :)

but Elves were the first speaking people. they taught the Ents how to spaek, though they develop later their own language.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

An Elf will not die unless killed(although only the most greivous wounds will kill an Elf) or he wastes away of grief.

Otherwise every Elf will live forever(or atleast until Arda is broken and remade). After the Dagor Dagorath, who knows what will happen. Only Eru Illuvatar.

The Ents are older than the Elves. They were created by Yavanna about the same time that Aule created the Dwarves. Both were put into a long sleep shortly after their creation.

[Elanor]

I have a question: if elves were perfectly fine in Arda before the rings were made, why did they have to leave after the One Ring was destroyed? I know that the 3 lost power, but why did that matter if they had been fine before the 3 were even made?

[Eruve]

The Elves weren't leaving Arda, they were leaving Middle-earth. Where they were going was part of Arda, too.

Elves live a long, long time. By the most conservative of estimates, Galadriel was over 8000 years old by the end of the Third Age. While they age slowly, they do age, and with aging comes fading. I'm not sure I can explain what all fading entails, since I'm not sure I understand it entirely myself... (Hint, hint, Michael!) But what the Three Rings did was hold off fading; and Elves faded faster in Middle-earth than in Aman. So at the end of the Third Age, with the One destroyed, the Three lost their power. Certain remaining Elves left, a good number of them it seems, but not all (e.g. Celeborn), so they could hold off the fading process longer in Aman. If I understand it right, life becomes more and more unsupportable to an Elf once fading begins--unsupportable but inescapable--so they want to hold fading off as long as possible.

[Xivigg]

Elves are immortal in the way that they don't die of old age
but they can be killed and they can let themself die when they lost the losing the will to live .

So when in the middle earth the proud Eldar lost everything they build including the 3 rings nothing keep them leavingfor Aman were everything they old dear is waiting for them.

They could have leave earlyer but they were the only thing that keep THE ennemies from overrunning all the middle earth

I can be wrong but iM positif i've see something like that somewere

[Durelen]

ents most certainly weren't awoken before the elves. ents, like the dwarves, were not allowed because Eru told the valar that the eldar would be the firstborn, before every other race.

[anduin]

Welcome to the board. :)

[Durelen]

thanks for the warm welcome

[Eruve]

Yes, the Elves are the Firstborn Children of Iluvatar. Ents are not Children of Iluvatar. There are several instances of JRRT mentioning that Treebeard was the oldest living thing in Middle-earth. One is where Gandalf says to Theoden that when Theoden talks to Treebeard, he will be conversing with the oldest living creature in ME. There are also a couple of mentions in Letters. There were many creatures alive before the Elves. Sil. mentions monsters that walked in the darkness after the Spring of Arda. Also the Eagles of Manwe.

I don't think you can really make the comparison with the Dwarves. Aule created them out of impatience: he couldn't wait for the Chilren to be born so he would have pupils. He went beyond the limits of his authority and created something that wasn't in the Music. The Ents came about because Yavanna asked Manwe to intercede for her with Eru so that trees would have some sort of protection. She and Manwe then had a conversation about the Music in which Manwe reveals that there was already something in Eru's plans to protect trees. The Ents were in the Music the whole time, but no one noticed.

[arynetrek]

question from the Tolkien Sarcasm Page's middle-earth test:

14. Reconcile Tom Bombadil's statement that he is "Eldest" with Gandalf's statement that Fangorn is "the oldest of all living things". Extra Credit: suggest a valid date of birth for each of them. Document your answers.

and here's a serious question for y'all - Iluvatar created the Ainur/Valar/Melkor, who in turn created the Ents/plants/Dwarves; and Iluvatar created the Elves/Maiar/Men. Now, who created the Eagles? were they Manwe's doing? And what about eeevil critters like Ungoliant - one of Iluvatar's or his creations' creation? she was around before Arda was created, but she had to come from somewhere.

or is she the anti-Iluvatar?

just some thoughts...

aryne *

[Fat middle]

hmmm, difficult questions...

I think that the Maiar are not different than the Ainur. they were Ainur, but not of the greater Ainur so i think they weren't present at the Music playing.

yep, i think Manwe made the eagles and all the birds, but i can't recall a textual reference for this.

Ungoliant... wasn't she a corrupted Maiar? hmmm, i think i should read Sil. again :D

[Eruve]

Ainur = Valar and Maiar combined. They were all present when the Music occurred. The difference between Maiar and Valar is one of rank and relative power. The Valar are simply ranked higher and are more powerful.

Ungoliant: it is said that no one knows where she came from. It is implied she may be a corrupted Maia. I think so because she is strong enough to almost vanquish Melkor (once he is tired out and has expended a great deal of power).

I don't know about the idea of the Valar creating anything per se. If you read the part about the Ents in Sil., Yavanna did not create them. It is revealed that they were in the Music all along, and had gone unnoticed until Yavanna asked Manwe to intercede with Eru to protect trees. I don't know if it can be said that Manwe created the Great Eagles, either. He may have taken some ordinary eagles and put his ower into them so that they possessed some intelligence. JRRT speculates on the Eagles a bit in Morgoth's Ring, and doesn't really come to a conclusion, IIRC. He says they may be lesser Maiar incarnated as eagles or may have been somehow raised up by their contact with the Valar, and so become able to speak and reason. It is said specifically that Melkor cannot create. I can't remember now if this is because he is a Vala (as opposed to a God) or because he is evil.
Now if you consider the Dwarves, did Aule create them? Yes and no. He created puppets. They were alive apparently, but incapable of independent action, until Eru acted on them directly and gave them that power. So Aule created their bodies, their physical make-up (their hroa to use JRRT's term) but it took Eru to give them a spirit or soul ( fea).

[Fat middle]

He says they may be lesser Maiar incarnated as eagles or may have been somehow raised up by their contact with the Valar, and so become able to speak and reason. i haven't read Morgoth's Ring (though i think that's the first HOME book i'll read). Do you remember if Tolkien mentions there something about the ability to speak of Croack and his kindred in the Hobbit?

[Eruve]

Nothing specific. There is a section in MR which presents essays or passages where JRRT is more or less thinking on paper. At one point he is philosophizing on whether the Orcs might actually be beasts with the ability to speak, and he brings up creatures on the "good" side that have the same ability. He mentions Huan and Thorondor specifically, but I imagine whatever conclusion he may have eventually drawn (he didn't actually come to a conclusion) could be extended to other speaking creatures.

[arynetrek]

thanks!

aryne *

[Eldoran LFD]

Yes Elves are immortal
they can "die" of wounds and of grief but when they do so they go to the Halls of Mandos.
From here they can be resurrected.
Men, however, when they die they die. That is the blessing of men granted by Eru.
Elves will live forever in spirit form or not but men when they die they go some place "close to Eru".

[Michael Martinez]

Elves are not said to live "forever" by Tolkien. They live with the life of Arda. That is, their "lives" are destined to end when Arda ends. Men live briefly in Arda and then their spirits go elsewhere (presumably they leave the Halls of Ea).

The physical lifespan of the Elves was in fact altered, although whether it was altered by the Valar with Iluvatar's approval or altered by Iluvatar and announced by the Valar isn't made clear.

Fading was introduced as a punishment for the rebellious Noldor, but it apparently became the fate for all Elves at the end of the First Age, when the Valar once again summoned all Elves to pass over Sea to Valinor.

When Tolkien speaks of "life" and "death" he has certain meanings and usages in mind which don't really coincide with our every day usage. His meanings are founded upon the certainty that Iluvatar creates spirits outside of the Halls of Ea (the universe) and sends them to indell or incarnate in physical, biological bodies.

The physical bodies die. For Men and Dwarves the death of the body comes swiftly, but it is not "true death". That is, the spirit, the awareness or consciousness of the individual, survives intact. Hence, you may have wraiths (although all are Human or Elven -- Dwarf spirits go to the Halls of Mandos).

Elves "die" but their spirits, unlike those of Men, remain in Arda. Unlike the Dwarves, the Elves may be rebodied at some point (but this is not certain). Also, unlike Men an Elf's spirit may elect NOT to go to the Halls of Mandos. Elf-wraiths may remain in Middle-earth as "haunts", staying close to the lands they loved in life.

It seems to be accepted by Elves that Men will continue to exist after Time ends. The concept of "after Time ends" should seem streange, because by definition there is no "after Time" in the strictest sense. But Time is itself only a measurement of one dimension (duration) of the physical universe (the Halls of Ea). Something akin to Time may exist outside of the universe (call it an Absolute Time, but don't try to confuse this with Einstein's Theory of Relativity, which would have nothing to do with it).

In Absolute Time there would be a progression of event much like in Time (or call it Ea Time) but there need not necessarily be any one-to-one correlation. Still, it could be mapped something like this:

Ea Time: ..........|-------------------------|.......
Ab Time: |------------------------------------------|

Ea Time exists only for the duration of the hyphens (-), and Absolute Time exists "before", "coinciding", and "after" Ea Time.

Human spirits are believed by the Elves to leave Ea Time and therefore have (in the Elves' opinion) a true "Eternal existence". The Elves fear that they will cease to exist when Ea Time completes its run.

The essays in Morgoth's Ring are useful to a point but they represent different stages of thought in Tolkien's life and in general are applicable to an incomplete effort to redesign the cosmology to be more "scientifically valid".

In Tolkien, physicality or incarnation are not exactly the same as existence. Existence is possible without incarnation. Elves, Men, and Dwarves are Incarnates by nature. That is, their spirits become aware with birth. What proceeds afterward is irrelevant because they were not empowered or given the choice to incarnate themselves.

Ainur (of whom only some became Valar and Maiar), when they enter the Halls of Ea, may choose to incarnate themselves in various forms (Yavanna most often preferred to incarnate herself as a tree, for example). For this reason, Tolkien called them the Self-Incarnated. Normally, these creatures had the ability to change their form or disincarnate themselves (literally to shed the bodies they had made for themselves).

At some point Tolkien decided that they could become permanently incarnated for one of several reasons. Melkor became permanently incarnated because he diffused his power into other creatures and into Arda itself in an attempt to identify himself with it.

This concept of permanent incarnation almost certainly predates the essays in "Myths Transformed" (the section of Morgoth's Ring which we're referring to). The essays seem to be expanding or explaining the rough ideas which had been a part of the underlying storyline for many years.

[Eruve]

Thank you, Michael! :)

[Bullroarer]

Our favorite Tolkien scholar. :)

[olorin7]

the elves are said to live forever. for this reason you can believe that the elves are older than the ents. true that gandalf said that treebeard is the oldest living thing in middle earth. Could this mean the oldest living mortal thing? One must think so because there is no doubt that he can not be the oldest in middle earth. Gandalf himself, the balrog, and sauron, all being maia were in existence before Arda was created.

[Inoldonil]

Gandalf's comments about Treebeard's age undoubtedly excludes Tom Bombadil, Ainur and even trees, but not Elves. At the end of the Third Age all the Elves who had lived before Treebeard were not to be found in Middle-earth. They would be in Valinor, Eressea or the Halls of Mandos.

The Elves moreover did not live forever, just an extremely long amount of time. They could live only as long as the world, and the stragglers in Middle-earth would fade before its end. They were more properly called indefinitely longeval.

Then again, there is Cirdan. If the Elves woke up the Ents, and Cirdan took part in the Great Journey, isn't he older than Treebeard?

Well, I suppose Treebeard was alive before he was 'Entish' and was taught speech.

[Lord Xanthyz]

So where do elves fo after the Halls of Mandos?

[Inoldonil]

If the judgement of Mandos goes well (and Manwë has the final word), they return to the living. Their body is made again as it was before whatever evil assailed it, and they return to Middle-earth if possible and if their home had been there, or remain in Aman.

[galadriel]

I'm interested in this concept of Elven wraiths. There are plenty of human wraiths, such as the Nazgul and the Barrow-wights, but I've never heard of an Elven wraith. Any particular ones that I should be aware of?

[Ñólendil]

Actually the Barrow-wights may be Elvish wraiths. Mannish wraiths were much more rare. They only remained within the Circles of the World after death in the most rarest cases, most definitely leave forever. Elves, on the hand, their fëar, or spirits may refuse the summons of Mandos (although this was an evil thing to do) and linger in Middle-earth. So most wraiths in Middle-earth, famous or not, were Elvish. They may even possess the unweary (and unwise) who summon them.

[ranger]

I think ents were first but the elves taught them how to speak

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by ranger
I think ents were first but the elves taught them how to speak

Ents couldn't have been first b/c Eru says to Aule and Yavanna that their thoughts (Ents and Dwarves) will not come before the Elves that are to be the Firstborn.