Finrod and Amarie

[Sister Golden Hair]

In the Silmarillion it says:

Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but forsight came upon felagund as she spoke; and he said: "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit."

In "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" it says that Elves usually picked their mates in childhood. And this person was who they remained with throughout all time until the end of Arda. We don't specifically know if Finrod and Amarie were married at the time he went into Exile, but we do know that she was who he loved, and apparently that happens only once in life for an Elf, nomatter what.

My question is: why would Galadriel ask him this knowing he was betrothed to Amarie even if they were seperated, knowing that he could, and would not choose another?:confused:

[celeb-galad]

How do you know they were married? I doubt Amarië would have stayed behind if they were. I even doubt their love reached full bloom, or that it was made manifest to everyone in Aman. I think Finrod kept his love for her in his heart, and this was hidden from Galadriel.

;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by celeb-galad
How do you know they were married? I doubt Amarië would have stayed behind if they were. I even doubt their love reached full bloom, or that it was made manifest to everyone in Aman. I think Finrod kept his love for her in his heart, and this was hidden from Galadriel.

;) I didn't say that they were married. We don't specifically know if Finrod and Amarie were married at the time he went into Exile According to "Laws and Customs" they didn't have to be. They were committed. Galadriel would have known that.

[Ulmo]

but we do know that she was who he loved, and apparently that happens only once in life for an Elf, nomatter what.

I remind you...Finwe and Miriel/Indis.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Galadriel would have known that. Apparently Galadriel did not know, or else she wouldn't have asked. Is it said anywhere that Amarie loved Finrod? Perhaps he kept his love to himself, because he knew it wouldn't be returned.

I assume Galadriel had just met Celeborn, and love was strongly on her mind at that time. She may have wanted to talk with Finrod about his experience of love and marriage.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ulmo
I remind you...Finwe and Miriel/Indis. Remember that that was an unusual case and the only one of its kind. Miriel had died and refused to return to life. That is much different than Finrod and Amarie.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Apparently Galadriel did not know, or else she wouldn't have asked.Since the Elves proclaim their love in childhood, how could Galadriel not know? Is it said anywhere that Amarie loved Finrod? Perhaps he kept his love to himself, because he knew it wouldn't be returned.Well, it says somewhere that they did get together after he was released from Mandos. It is in one of the HoMe books. Can't remember which one.

I guess though that if she never loved him, then that shoots Michael Martinez' theory in the foot that Gildor Inglorian was probably Finrod and Amarie's son.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Since Gildor was not a King or other great lord, that preety much shoots him being Finrods son, whenever he came to middle earth. By the succesion in male line, which is the form followed by the Noldorin Kings (where thoses in senor female lines were apparently passed over for junior male lines) He would have been the chief heir of Finwe in ME. He may, however, have been a grandson or youner generation descendant of Finrod or AraFinwe, through female descent, thus getting getting to named part of the family with being the heir to kingship, or perhaps even a fosterson of Finrod (There were many young elves orphaned during the war of the jewels), getting a family connection in that manner.

[Maedhros]

My question is: why would Galadriel ask him this knowing he was betrothed to Amarië
I don't think that there is any question that they were in love. I think I read somewhere, possibly in the Shibboleth, that Amarië was not permitted to go into exile with him.
To me, Amarië would be the right queen of Nargothrond.;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I don't think that there is any question that they were in love. I think I read somewhere, possibly in the Shibboleth, that Amarië was not permitted to go into exile with him.
To me, Amarië would be the right queen of Nargothrond.;) Very funny Maedhros:p, but yes, you are correct about it saying that Amarie was not permitted to go with him. So, that tells me that his love was returned by her and I can't think their love was a secret as suggested, so it is still a puzzle to me as to why Galadriel asked him that question.:confused:

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Since the Elves proclaim their love in childhood, how could Galadriel not know? Agree there's a problem there. But Finrod's answer to Galadriel is also strange: An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.From his answer it seems like it is the uncertainty of his future that keeps him from marrying, not that his loved one is not with him.Originally posted by Maedhros
To me, Amarië would be the right queen of Nargothrond.Sticking your neck out, do you? :p SGH, I thought you would have hewed his head off :D

[Maedhros]

So, that tells me that his love was returned by her and I can't think their love was a secret as suggested, so it is still a puzzle to me as to why Galadriel asked him that question.
I don't see the problem in that. What if that was only the beginning of their love. Galadriel would be busy with Celeborn in Aman and would have not noticed that? The only ones who would new would be Finrod, Amarië and the parents of Amarië.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Agree there's a problem there. But Finrod's answer to Galadriel is also strange: From his answer it seems like it is the uncertainty of his future that keeps him from marrying, not that his loved one is not with him. I would agree with your interpretation but for what Tolkien says immediately after that.

But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

Sticking your neck out, do you? :p SGH, I thought you would have hewed his head off :D I'm thinking about it Artanis. Maybe his other hand huh?:D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I would agree with your interpretation but for what Tolkien says immediately after that.I know. These two quotes seem to contradict each other. It's strange.
I'm thinking about it Artanis. Maybe his other hand huh?:D It would be nicer than the head, agree. :)

Maedhros, before your limbs fall, you believe Celeborn was a Teleri living in Aman, do you? Wasn't that something JRRT wrote very late in life?

[Maedhros]

Maedhros, before your limbs fall, you believe Celeborn was a Teleri living in Aman, do you? Wasn't that something JRRT wrote very late in life?
That is precisely why I think that.
I'm thinking about it Artanis. Maybe his other hand huh?
How would i be able to type then? :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

How would i be able to type then?

And it was said that he learned to type better and faster with his nose then he had with both hands:D

That is precisely why I think that. You know, rumor has it that Tolkien was not quite right in mind late in life.:(

[Maedhros]

And it was said that he learned to type better and faster with his nose then he had with both hands
HEHEHEHE:p
You know, rumor has it that Tolkien was not quite right in mind late in life.
From the Book of Unfinished Tales:The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
This story, withdrawing Galadriel from all association with the rebellion of Fëanor, even to the extent of giving her a separate departure (with Celeborn) from Aman, is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere. It arose from "philosophical" (rather than "historical") considerations, concerning the precise nature of Galadriel's disobedience in Valinor on the one hand, and her status and power in Middle-earth on the other. That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration in the narrative of The Silmarillion is evident; but that my father doubtless intended to do. It may be noted here that Galadriel did not appear in the original story of the rebellion and flight of the Noldor, which existed tong before she did; and also, of course, that after her entry into the stories of the First Age her actions could still be transformed radically, since The Silmarillion had not been published. The book as published was however formed from completed narratives, and I could not take into account merely projected revisions.
This is why I believe that.

[celeb-galad]

But if Celeborn is a prince of Alqualondë, and Olwë's grandson, Galadriel and Celeborn would have been too closely related. Smells like incest...And the Eldar did not wed such close kin.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by celeb-galad
But if Celeborn is a prince of Alqualondë, and Olwë's grandson, Galadriel and Celeborn would have been too closely related. Smells like incest...And the Eldar did not wed such close kin.
At the time he was experimenting with this (apparently abandoned in favor of remaining consistant with PUBLISHED text{Celeborn was established as a Sinda in the apendicies to LoTr}) He also was experimenting with distinguishing first cousins related through one (each) parent from those related through both (each) parents. One of his brainstorming notes creates a realtion called by the elves 'half sibling' wich is not our use of the word both are first cousing whose both parents a siblings. Eg, a pair of siblings marries another pair of siblings are their the cildren from the two couples call each other 'half siblings', and that 'half siblings' do not marry, but other first cousins do.

[Utumno]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I guess though that if she never loved him, then that shoots Michael Martinez' theory in the foot that Gildor Inglorian was probably Finrod and Amarie's son.

Where can I read about his theory?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Utumno
Where can I read about his theory?
http://www.suite101.com/

[Imladrien]

I believe that Galadriel was really asking "Why isn't Amarie here? Why aren't the two of you married?" rather than the interpretation that has been given here. --Imladrien

[Ruinel]

Finrod loved Amarie, so the Silmarillion says. But it doesn't say that she loved him back. It only says that "she went not with him into exile." It doesn't say she wasn't permitted to go, just that she didn't go. I think that if she truely loved Finrod, she would have gone with him anywhere, even into exile, no matter what.

Oh, I know I would have followed Finrod anywhere, in a pinch!

Can anyone give me some suggestions. I would like to start buying the HoME books, but I'm not sure what is in each one or which I should buy first. Should I buy them and read them in order? Are there any that you feel are more valuable to the history than others? Are there any which contain the best of stories?

[Ruinel]

I also do not believe that Gildor Inglorion "of the House of Finrod" is Finrod's son (from FotR). Otherwise he would have said... "son of Finrod" or "son of (whomever), son of Finrod". I think he was either in a position in the house of Finrod of confidence, or he offered his service to the House of Finrod. But I don't believe him to be the son or grandson of Finrod.

[Artanis]

I like Imladrien's explanation.

[markedel]

It could be that Finrod's remarks arose unbidden-elvish foresight, not an ordinary thought at all. That would explain the dissonance.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by markedel
It could be that Finrod's remarks arose unbidden-elvish foresight, not an ordinary thought at all. That would explain the dissonance.

The Sil does say that "foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'"

I think he wanted to be free to fight the evil of ME unbridled by his thoughts of another. Or being hindered by feeling he must protect another (child or wife). And he also knew (foresight) the perils he would be up against as well as his realm in Nargothrond (destroyed by Glaurung). Although I suppose it was more a feeling of dread and not an actual vision of the future.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Finrod loved Amarie, so the Silmarillion says. But it doesn't say that she loved him back. It only says that "she went not with him into exile." It doesn't say she wasn't permitted to go, just that she didn't go. I think that if she truely loved Finrod, she would have gone with him anywhere, even into exile, no matter what. Well, she did love him back, because in the HoMe they were married after his release from Mandos. The HoMe also says that she was not permitted to go into exile with him.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, she did love him back, because in the HoMe they were married after his release from Mandos. The HoMe also says that she was not permitted to go into exile with him.

Dang! I have got to get these books. Can you recommend which ones I should pick up first. That is, if I do not have to read them in order 1 through 12, then which ones are worth getting and reading first.

[Falagar]

I bet most here would reccomend HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring. So do I :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah, it depends on where your interests lie in the mytho. The HoMe do not have to be read in order, because they are not like a story. The first books I bought were the last three volumes: Morgoth's Ring (10) The War of the Jewels (11) and: The Peoples of Middle-earth (12) These were of the greatest interest to me because 10 and 11 are the Later Quenta Silmarillion. I own none of the books related to LotRs. I should get them though, just so I can keep up the discussion with those that do have them.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, it depends on where your interests lie in the mytho. The HoMe do not have to be read in order, because they are not like a story. The first books I bought were the last three volumes: Morgoth's Ring (10) The War of the Jewels (11) and: The Peoples of Middle-earth (12) These were of the greatest interest to me because 10 and 11 are the Later Quenta Silmarillion. I own none of the books related to LotRs. I should get them though, just so I can keep up the discussion with those that do have them.

I think someone once told me that one of the books has traditions of the peoples of ME. Sounds like that would be in the 12th book you are mentioning here. I'm going to order them now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I think someone once told me that one of the books has traditions of the peoples of ME. Sounds like that would be in the 12th book you are mentioning here. I'm going to order them now. Along these lines, another great read is "Laws and Customs of the Eldar," in Morgoth's Ring, vol. 10.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Along these lines, another great read is "Laws and Customs of the Eldar," in Morgoth's Ring, vol. 10.

Now that you mention it. I think this person was talking about Morgoth's Ring, as you say here.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Along these lines, another great read is "Laws and Customs of the Eldar," in Morgoth's Ring, vol. 10.

I just bought all three. They'll be here in a week. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I just bought all three. They'll be here in a week. Thanks for the recommendation. You're welcome, and I don't think you will be disappointed with your choices, especially Morgoth's ring. When you get it read "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth." If you like Finrod, you will love this story. It will make you cry.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You're welcome, and I don't think you will be disappointed with your choices, especially Morgoth's ring. When you get it read "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth." If you like Finrod, you will love this story. It will make you cry.

I definitely "like" Finrod Felegund, the best Elf that ever was created by JRR Tolkien. He who makes all other elves (especially Legolas Greenleaf of Mirkwood) look like a bunch of pansies. If you were going to "like" an elf in any of these stories, Finrod would be the one.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You're telling me?:D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You're telling me?:D

I get the impression you may fancy the Elf yourself. :confused: Could this be?:D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I get the impression you may fancy the Elf yourself. :confused: Could this be?:D Geez Ruinel, you just haven't been around here long enough. Everyone here knows how I feel about King Finrod. Too bad he's not real.:(

[Earniel]

*whispers* I think the title of Queen of nargothrond may be a give away. Plus the fact that every 5 posts or so she goes in a monologue about all his good traits. ;)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Geez Ruinel, you just haven't been around here long enough. Everyone here knows how I feel about King Finrod. Too bad he's not real.:(

I've been around long enough to know that if Finrod were real that you and I would go at it in a a cat fight over him. lol:p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I've been around long enough to know that if Finrod were real that you and I would go at it in a a cat fight over him. lol:p You wouldn't stand a chance.:p :D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You wouldn't stand a chance.:p :D

I'm lithe and swift and I fight dirty.;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
and I fight dirty.;) Most women do. I have great experience.;)

[Earniel]

A word of advice, Ruinel. Watch out for her little admin stick. She likes to hit posters with it. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel
A word of advice, Ruinel. Watch out for her little admin stick. She likes to hit posters with it. :D Yeah, you tell her Eärniel.:D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Back to the topic.

Ruinel, I wanted to make a comment on a post you made a while back about gildor being Finrod's son.

It could possibly be that he was just in the service of the house of Finarfin, but I have always thought he may be of that line somehow, because he was golden haird

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, you tell her Eärniel.:D

I just did. :D *moves well out of the way from the admin stick*

It could possibly be that he was just in the service of the house of Finarfin, but I have always thought he may be of that line somehow, because he was golden haird

It's a pitty the Elven bloodlines are so muddled. It's not easy trying to figure out who's who's dad. No wonder Elves lived so long, they needed all that time to figure out their lineage.

I find it odd that the only blonde-haired Noldor would have to be descendants from Finarfin's house. Didn't Fingolfin have light hair too? I haven't got access to my Silmarillion right now but I always pictured him blonde too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Fingolfin and Finarfin were brothers, but it appears that Finarfin and his children were the only ones to inherit the golden hair of the Vanyar from Indis.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, you tell her Eärniel.:D

EEEKKK!!!:eek:

Then we will both agree that Finrod Felegund is the best Elf written by JRR Tolkien and leave it at that. ;)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Fingolfin and Finarfin were brothers, but it appears that Finarfin and his children were the only ones to inherit the golden hair of the Vanyar from Indis.


Hmmm, good point. And since all of the Vanyar left ME and never returned. It is safe to say that he was not straight Vanyar. *scratches head*

Then why wouldn't he have said..."son of whomever, son of Finrod?" Instead, he uses an identification that doesn't directly connect to Finrod as a direct descendant... "of the House of Finrod," as "in the service of Finrod's family." :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Hmmm, good point. And since all of the Vanyar left ME and never returned. It is safe to say that he was not straight Vanyar. *scratches head*

Then why wouldn't he have said..."son of whomever, son of Finrod?" Instead, he uses an identification that doesn't directly connect to Finrod as a direct descendant... "of the House of Finrod," as "in the service of Finrod's family." :confused: When he identified himself to Frodo, he said"of the house of Finrod." That was meaning Finarfin. In later editions of LotRs that was changed to Finarfin, but before that, Finarfin was Finrod, and Finrod was Inglor. Now, see the simularities? Inglor, Gildor Inglorion. There is no hard proof to show that Gildor was Finrod's son, but he may have been of his line, and since Finarfin was the leader of that house, it would only stand to reason that Gildor would say: "of the house of Finarfin" when he answered frodo. One of the reasons I have always doubted that Gildor was the son of Finrod, is because he tells Frodo that they (the company of Elves) are Exiles. In my mind, that would mean that he may have been with Finrod in the following of Fingolfin across the ice.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
When he identified himself to Frodo, he said"of the house of Finrod." That was meaning Finarfin. In later editions of LotRs that was changed to Finarfin, but before that, Finarfin was Finrod, and Finrod was Inglor. Now, see the simularities? Inglor, Gildor Inglorion. There is no hard proof to show that Gildor was Finrod's son, but he may have been of his line, and since Finarfin was the leader of that house, it would only stand to reason that Gildor would say: "of the house of Finarfin" when he answered frodo. One of the reasons I have always doubted that Gildor was the son of Finrod, is because he tells Frodo that they (the company of Elves) are Exiles. In my mind, that would mean that he may have been with Finrod in the following of Fingolfin across the ice.

My version of FotR says "of the House of Finrod". I think you are right here, that he was with Finrod, et al, when they walked across the ice bridge to ME. Then he and the others in his company would have also been Exiles with the other Noldor. Perhaps he was of Finrod's line. (I may have a mental block to this. I never wanted him to get together with Amarie to begin with, she wasn't worthy of him b/c she wouldn't go into exile with him.)

[Sister Golden Hair]

I never wanted him to get together with Amarie to begin with, she wasn't worthy of him b/c she wouldn't go into exile with him.)Well, again Amarie was not permitted to go with him. Tolkien talks about how young many of the Elves were at the time of the Exile. I would say that Finrod was young, but of age. Perhaps Amarie was still under parental control. Plus not many of the Vanyar were involved, or wanted to be involved in the strife between the Noldor and the Valar.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, again Amarie was not permitted to go with him. Tolkien talks about how young many of the Elves were at the time of the Exile. I would say that Finrod was young, but of age. Perhaps Amarie was still under parental control. Plus not many of the Vanyar were involved, or wanted to be involved in the strife between the Noldor and the Valar.

But there are stories where children disobeyed their parents to be with someone they truely loved (ie, Luthien). Despite what is written that she wasn't permitted to go with him, if she truely loved him, she would have gone with him and not have him face the perils of his journey alone.

Or, perhaps she was like a lot of other female characters that Tolkien wrote in his stories, meek, mild, obedient, and doesn't speak her mind. I don't know, I haven't read much about her. Only the one line in the Silmarillion.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I've been around long enough to know that if Finrod were real that you and I would go at it in a a cat fight over him. lol:p

*hopes SGH and Ruinel knock each other out so she can run off with Finrod :D *

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Dang! I have got to get these books. Can you recommend which ones I should pick up first. That is, if I do not have to read them in order 1 through 12, then which ones are worth getting and reading first.

And Ruinel - definitely Morgoth's Ring, and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" *sigh*, because it looks like you're a First-ager, like me and the lady with the admin stick :D

I also liked The Lays of Beleriand, HoME 3, much to my surprise. Unfinished Tales is good. My next purchase will be War of the Jewels or Peoples of ME (I think HoME 11 & 12?) I have one of the LoTR HoMEs (The Treason of Isengard, HoME 7), and I did a lot of flipping pages, it just wasn't as interesting to me. I also have BoLT 2 (which is also HoME 2), which I liked because I'm a big Tuor fan, and "The Fall of Gondolin" is in there.

[Maedhros]

Then we will both agree that Finrod Felegund is the best Elf written by JRR Tolkien and leave it at that.
I always thought that FF was a wu**. :D

[Rían]

Maedhros, solamente eres celoso ;) :) :D (j/k!)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*hopes SGH and Ruinel knock each other out so she can run off with Finrod :D *
:eek:

We have a truce... but that is only b/c Finrod is (OMG, dare I say it...) fictional. *small tear streams down Ruinel's face, for facing bitter reality* Had Finrod been real, well... we'll just leave the rest to your imagination *gives RÃ*an a big nasty stare-down*.

I actually tried to put my B-Day in my profile screen as 1st age... it didn't take. I have the UT (great book). I've ordered Morgoth's Ring, War of the Jewels, and Peoples of ME. They should be arriving at my house within a few days and I'm anxious to read them. The first thing I will read is Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. ;) *gets all quivery inside thinking about Finrod*

I always thought that FF was a wu**. Maedhros... watch it mister!!! :mad:

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*gives RÃ*an a big nasty stare-down*

*hee hee*

I guess I better leave him to SGH, though, because I'm completely in awe of her vast admin powers (she can do things like edit my posts :eek: and make me appear to say mean things about Tuor :eek: )

After you've read the Athrabeth, you might want to bring up our thread on it. It was a very enjoyable discussion :)

*thinks "North away...." - SIGH!*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

After you've read the Athrabeth, you might want to bring up our thread on it. It was a very enjoyable discussion :)

*thinks "North away...." - SIGH!* [/B]

I can't wait!:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I can't wait!:) Oh, you will love it so much. You will see exactly what kind of guy Finrod really is in this. It will show you him in a much more magnified way than the Sil. Here, you will read his thoughts and feelings, and see his virtues. You will cry, and walk away in more awe of him than you ever had before. He is amazing in this work. And yes, when you are finished, go see the thread "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" It was a wonderful discussion.

Rian, I am actually glad to have some competition, but there is no hope for her in the end.:D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Rian, I am actually glad to have some competition, but there is no hope for her in the end.:D

Hope springs eternal.

[Maedhros]

Maedhros, solamente eres celoso
Hehe. Lo que es la belleza de los Campos Eliseos.
Here, you will read his thoughts and feelings, and see his virtues. You will cry, and walk away in more awe of him than you ever had before. He is amazing in this work.
Wow, you cried? I would hope that it was because of Andreth.:eek:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hehe. Lo que es la belleza de los Campos Eliseos.

Wow, you cried? I would hope that it was because of Andreth.:eek: It was because of all three of them. Andreth's rejection, Aegnor's pain, and Finrod? I always had the impression that he suffered terribly over Aegnor's choice to not return, because I think Aegnor rejected Andreth by Finrod's advice.

[Maedhros]

It was because of all three of them. Andreth's rejection, Aegnor's pain, and Finrod? I always had the impression that he suffered terribly over Aegnor's choice to not return, because I think Aegnor rejected Andreth by Finrod's advice.
If that is true, then I have zero respect for Finrod. To deny his brother a chance at happiness is pitiful. I have never been an FF fan but I always saw him as a good guy, I just don't see how could someone admire a person who does that. That is a failing in true love.:(

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
because I think Aegnor rejected Andreth by Finrod's advice. I don't think that is true. What make you think so?

[Artanis]

And btw, what is "Campos Eliseos"?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
If that is true, then I have zero respect for Finrod. To deny his brother a chance at happiness is pitiful. I have never been an FF fan but I always saw him as a good guy, I just don't see how could someone admire a person who does that. That is a failing in true love.:( Maedhros, Finrod was a good guy, but Finrod knew that such a union would be terrible. He said, brief it would be, and hard to the end. But, even if it was his advice to Aegnor, Aegnor's choice was his own. You can not hold his choice against Finrod. Aegnor was a big boy, not a baby.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't think that is true. What make you think so? Well, why would Finrod state how marriage between these two kindred would be brief and hard to the end, and that the least cruelest fate would be that death should soon end it, to Andreth, and not say it to Aegnor? He obviously had spoke to Aegnor about this possible union, and he tells Andreth that love and loyalty hold him to his kin.

Btw folks, I think we are a tad bit off topic.:p

[Artanis]

OK :) I just read your reply to Maedhros. It seems that I was reading your post wrong, I thought you meant Finrod persuaded Aegnor.

Yes, we are OT :p
*jumps to Athrabeth thread*

[Maedhros]

but Finrod knew that such a union would be terrible. He said, brief it would be, and hard to the end.
So. I believe that the few small moments of pure love would detter and eterny of despair, but that is just me. I see it as a failing of love.
You can not hold his choice against Finrod.
I cannot hold his choice, but I can hold his intentions, that the great FF didn't thought that his brother didn't have enough love for her.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
So. I believe that the few small moments of pure love would detter and eterny of despair, but that is just me. I see it as a failing of love.

I cannot hold his choice, but I can hold his intentions, that the great FF didn't thought that his brother didn't have enough love for her. Where did it ever say that Finrod didn't think that his brother had enough love for her?

Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanur the Sharp Flame loved thee. For thy sake now, he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion.

Also, we should discuss this in the "Athrabeth" thread in the Middle-earth forum. This thread is about Finrod and Amarie.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It was because of all three of them. Andreth's rejection, Aegnor's pain, and Finrod? I always had the impression that he suffered terribly over Aegnor's choice to not return, because I think Aegnor rejected Andreth by Finrod's advice.

Dude... what up with "What is the beauty of the Eliseos Fields". What do you mean?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Dude... what up with "What is the beauty of the Eliseos Fields". What do you mean? Um, what?

[Ruinel]

*Ruinel is lost in this conversation, but thinks Maedhros needs a kick in the pants for not being completely on Finrod's side on everything!!!*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair


Where you trying to comment on my quote SGH? Or were you laughing too hard to type?

[Maedhros]

Where did it ever say that Finrod didn't think that his brother had enough love for her?
I posting about your comment:
I always had the impression that he suffered terribly over Aegnor's choice to not return, because I think Aegnor rejected Andreth by Finrod's advice.
If the great FF did that, it is terribly sad.
Also, we should discuss this in the "Athrabeth" thread in the Middle-earth forum. This thread is about Finrod and Amarie.
Not necessarily, if I imply from your post that Finrod advice to his brother was to refect Andreth, can it be that it had something to do with the fact that he didn't know true love in ME because Amarië left him in Aman. True failing of love.
Ruinel is lost in this conversation, but thinks Maedhros needs a kick in the pants for not being completely on Finrod's side on everything
It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Where you trying to comment on my quote SGH? Or were you laughing too hard to type? I was trying to quote you, but the board went down. I will delete the other post, and try it again in a few. Stand by. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*Ruinel is lost in this conversation, but thinks Maedhros needs a kick in the pants for not being completely on Finrod's side on everything!!!* Ruinel, we are discussing the Athrabeth which you haven't read yet. I agree with you about Maedhros.:D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I posting about your comment:

If the great FF did that, it is terribly sad.What's sad, is that Finrod loved his brother and believed that he would suffer a worse fate by marrying a mortal. He loved Aegnor. However, Aegnor's decision was his own. I don't think Finrod wanted either one of them to be unhappy. He loved them both, but Aegnor would not return to life, and I think that must have been very devistating to Finrod.

Not necessarily, if I imply from your post that Finrod advice to his brother was to refect Andreth, can it be that it had something to do with the fact that he didn't know true love in ME because Amarië left him in Aman. True failing of love.I don't think that any advice that Finrod gave to Aegnor or Andreth, had anything to do with his love for Amarie. It is not a true failing of love. Amarie was not permitted to go into exile with him. They did marry after his return from Mandos.

What is up with you and Finrod? He was a wonderful person in almost every way. Just wondering why Feanor and his kind are so deserving of your admiration and you can down a Elf that was vitually Feanor's counterpart. Feanor was the cause of all the woes of the Noldor.

It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.It is not my fault that Feanor and his sons are jerks, and that you admire that.:p

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.

I still cannot see the appeal of utter arrogance and murdering your own kin.

[Maedhros]

It is not my fault that Feanor and his sons are jerks, and that you admire that.
It's funny actually, there was this very interesting thread about the Ñoldor and the Vanyar, and they are many interesting points about both races. There is this point that I would like to point out:
But one thing that I believe can be safely said is this: I've noticed that the Noldor, and in particular Fëanor, are often insulted, and sometimes it seems that they're down right hated, and I think this is, for the most part, a result of reading with a pitiless and black/white perspective. It's sad, because if the story is read as such, the tragedy of Fëanor's fall (and the Noldor's) is lost on the reader.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.
:eek:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It is not my fault that Feanor and his sons are jerks, and that you admire that.:p

YOU GET 'IM, GIRL!!!

Maedhros: Feanor's selfishness and hot temper brought the Doom of Mandos on the Noldor. Feanor brought on/ ordered the Kinslaying at Alaqualonde. Feanor and his sons left the other's on the shore while they took the ships to ME... some of those elves who took the ice bridge died. And who's fault would that be, I wonder? Feanor!!!

I'm thinking that not a lot has been lost on me here. Sorry that I can't feel sorry for his loss of the Silmarils, and he wasn't the only son who lost a father that day. Yet those other sons did not turn out the way he did.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's funny actually, there was this very interesting thread about the Ñoldor and the Vanyar, and they are many interesting points about both races. There is this point that I would like to point out: But one thing that I believe can be safely said is this: I've noticed that the Noldor, and in particular Fëanor, are often insulted, and sometimes it seems that they're down right hated, and I think this is, for the most part, a result of reading with a pitiless and black/white perspective. It's sad, because if the story is read as such, the tragedy of Fëanor's fall (and the Noldor's) is lost on the reader. Well in implying this to me is incorrect. I never said I hated Feanor. As a matteroffact, I have always found Feanor to be an exciting character and without him, the Silmarillion wouldn't be much of a story. The fact is that he was the cause of all the strife of the Noldor and in his deeds to persue the Silmarils, caused the deaths of many of his own people, because in his pride he felt they did not hold true to him. In all the times that I have read the Silmarillion, never was my reading of it pitiless or black and white. I saw Feanor for exactly what he was which was the author's intent. What I fail to understand is how anyone that admires such a character, who caused such grief, not only to his people, but to his children as well, can bash a character like FF, who did nothing but good in his life. As Angrod told Thingol: Guiltless we came forth save maybe for folly, to listen to the words of fell Feanor, and become as if besotted with wine, and as briefly. No evil did we do on our road, but suffered ourselves great wrong; and forgave it. Now, I will say it one more time everyone: let's get back on topic.

[Artanis]

Here is a funny little thing from Shibboleth, suggesting that Finrod and Amárië was married before Finrod went into exile :D It is taken from a note about the parentage of Gil-Galad.Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in Exile

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Here is a funny little thing from Shibboleth, suggesting that Finrod and Amárië was married before Finrod went into exile :D It is taken from a note about the parentage of Gil-Galad. Yeah, the Sil says otherwise, but the Sil has its problems. Tolkien changed so many things so often, especially in that geneology. But I have to think then that if the account in the Shibboleth is accurate, and they were married at the time he went into exile, then she would have gone with him. How confusing.

[Artanis]

The note I quoted was dated 1965. On the same note Gil-Galad is also put in as Orodreth's son. But a few paragraphs before that note, CRT has this comment:It emerged, however, in the Grey Annals of 1951 (XI.44, $108) that Felagund had no wife, for the Vanya Amárië whom he loved had not been permitted to leave Aman.The Grey Annals is probably the source of the Silmarillion version.

[Ruinel]

OMG!!! Do NOT even say that Finrod was married to Amarie, and then didn't go into exile with him!!! That would definitely put her way, way, way down on my list. As I've said... if she truely loved him, she would have endured ANYTHING to be with him (ie, the ice, the journey, the exiled status, ANYTHING).
I think she was a pansy-"s", nail painting, big haired tease that played with Finrod. And she definitely did NOT deserve his love.

*erk!!! must ... calm ... down ... *

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
OMG!!! Do NOT even say that Finrod was married to Amarie, and then didn't go into exile with him!!!But her staying behind was very convenient for our Queen of Nargothrond here :p

Oops, I remember now, you've got a claim on Mr. Goldilocks too, haven't you ;)

[Earniel]

Her staying behind was also very convenient for the plots.

*wonders how large the crush that some people have on Finrod is if they start to dislike his love interests when these don't willingly go away with him into darkness but decides not to say it aloud. :p*

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Her staying behind was also very convenient for the plots.

convenient!??! :eek: *ack* WHAT!? :eek:

Here's this Elf. And he leaves the most beautiful place that ever existed because of his LOYALTY to his kin. This tart makes some lame excuse that she's not allowed to go into Exile with him (probably because she'll break a friggin' nail or muss her hair or some lame excuse like that). He faces a bitter battle at Alqualonde where he has to fight against his father's kin with his mother's kin, relatives dropping like flies left and right. Then Feanor (that rat) leaves him and the rest on the shores and they have to take a perilous journey across the ice. Again, he has to watch kin and friend die along THAT route. The perils, the tragedies, the bitter end at Tol-in-Gaurhoth!!!

Couldn't there have been someone to share his life, someone to bring joy to the bitter Exile, someone to say "come back alive with Beren"?

And where, oh where is Amarie in all of this? Reports say she was busy getting her hair and nails done at Aman Couturier!!!

arrrrgh! Must ... get ... control!!!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Couldn't there have been someone to share his life, someone to bring joy to the bitter Exile, someone to say "come back alive with Beren"?But if he had wedded Amarie and she had followed him in Exile, would he have fought as fiercely in the Dagor Bragollach, or swore an oath to Barahir, and so come with Beren on his quest?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
But if he had wedded Amarie and she had followed him in Exile, would he have fought as fiercely in the Dagor Bragollach, or swore an oath to Barahir, and so come with Beren on his quest?

Yes, I think he would have fought fiercely, and would have sworn an oath. That was the kind of Elf he was. Perhaps he would have been more cautious with Beren knowing there was someone to come home to. Perhaps he still would have died by the werewolf in the pit. However, in my opinion, if there had been a wife to share his life with, I think that it would have made things easier for him.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
*wonders how large the crush that some people have on Finrod is if they start to dislike his love interests when these don't willingly go away with him into darkness but decides not to say it aloud. :p*

:rolleyes: Crush: an infatuation. Infatuation: inspired with foolish love or affection.

I do not have a "crush" on Finrod... I just ... really... like ... his character... a lot. :p Ok, more than "a lot". :D

Besides, how could anyone NOT fall for him. *swoons*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I prefer that she did not go into exile with him. The story surrounding Finrod's character would not have been half as moving if she had been there to confort him. Afterall, it is his noble character and sad trials that make us love him. All of these terrible things that happened to such a good guy.:(

He faces a bitter battle at Alqualonde where he has to fight against his father's kin with his mother's kin, relatives dropping like flies left and right. Just to nitpick, Finrod did not actually fight in the Kinslaying. He was at the rear of the great host and it had ended by the time they came up. Galadriel fought, but she was at the head of the host with Fingon, I believe.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
However, in my opinion, if there had been a wife to share his life with, I think that it would have made things easier for him. I'm not sure things would not have been easier. I'm afraid he would have been torn between his duty as a warrior and oath-holder, and his life with Amarie, even is he had taken the same actions as we know he did. There is a reason why Elves don't marry in times of war.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
There is a reason why Elves don't marry in times of war.

:rolleyes: Yes, I just finished reading those parts in Morgoth's Ring. This was the reason given Finrod gave to Andreth that Aegnor left her and didn't marry her. THis is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. *sigh... wishes Finrod would forsake his kin and take Ruinel away, but then, would Ruinel still have the same "respect" for Finrod in the morning?*

I think Finrod was alone in his griefs and troubled with the weight of duty and honor. It would have been nice to have shared this with someone he loved.

Oh, yes, if SGH reads this... it was the first thing I read in the book. Did you have any doubts?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Oh, yes, if SGH reads this... it was the first thing I read in the book. Did you have any doubts? Same here.:)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Same here.:)

Finrod makes all other Elves and any Man, Hobbit, or Dwarf seem petty in comparison.

Just to nitpick, Finrod did not actually fight in the Kinslaying.

Yes, you are right. I think I got caught up in the moment. But the horror he must have experienced when coming up on the devistation of the battle afterwards. The grief he had for both sides, must have been overwhelming. Finarfin (his father) was so grieved that he turned around and went back to the pardon of the Valar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, yes, it would have been a very grievous thing to face.

Fact is that Finarfin did not forsake the journey then, but after the Doom of Mandos was spoken.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, yes, it would have been a very grievous thing to face.

Fact is that Finarfin did not forsake the journey then, but after the Doom of Mandos was spoken.

But not because of the Doom of Mandos... he was being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Feanor, because of his kinship with Olwe of Alqualonde....

Finrod and the other sons (and Galadriel) wouldn't leave the sons of Fingolfin. So, they went on into Exile with them. Fingolfin and his sons had come up on the fight and thought that the Teleri were attacking the Noldor (by mistake) and participated in the Kinslaying against the Teleri.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
But not because of the Doom of Mandos... he was

Finrod and the other sons (and Galadriel) wouldn't leave the sons of Fingolfin. So, they went on into Exile with them. Fingolfin and his sons had come up on the fight and thought that the Teleri were attacking the Noldor (by mistake) and participated in the Kinslaying against the Teleri. That's correct.

[Ruinel]

So, back to the original start of this thread.

It says in Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, that Elves do not grow up the way the Children of Men do. It takes Elves 50 years to reach the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown. Therefore, maturity varied between 50 and 100 yrs. Most Elves married just after their 50th year. It also says that they chose their mates early in youth, and sometimes as children. So, this could be anywhere within 100 years, but usually within the first 50 years. But this was the norm and not all Elves followed this course. There were situations, as has already been posted (ie, war) in which the Elves pushed off marriage and children.

So, if Finrod and Amarie were (dare I say it) in love, then they couldn't have been in love for very long. The whole thing with Feanor took place suddenly. If they had followed the course of events for betrothed Elves they would have been married after 2 years (1 yr for betrothal, then another yr to set the wedding).

I can not recall, how old was Finrod when he left Aman?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, back to the original start of this thread.

It says in Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, that Elves do not grow up the way the Children of Men do. It takes Elves 50 years to reach the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown. Therefore, maturity varied between 50 and 100 yrs. Most Elves married just after their 50th year. It also says that they chose their mates early in youth, and sometimes as children. So, this could be anywhere within 100 years, but usually within the first 50 years. But this was the norm and not all Elves followed this course. There were situations, as has already been posted (ie, war) in which the Elves pushed off marriage and children.

So, if Finrod and Amarie were (dare I say it) in love, then they couldn't have been in love for very long. The whole thing with Feanor took place suddenly. If they had followed the course of events for betrothed Elves they would have been married after 2 years (1 yr for betrothal, then another yr to set the wedding).

I can not recall, how old was Finrod when he left Aman? Nowhere that I know of does it state Finrod's actual age at the time of the Exile, other than to say that most all the Noldor that went were in the days of thier youth. I would estimate that he was of full stature, but still very young. Amarie may not have been an adult yet. We do not know. If Amarie was not of age then that could explain a couple of things. She was still under parental control and being Vanyarin, not permitted to join the exile. Also, that would explain why she and Finrod did not wed before the Exile.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
convenient!??! :eek: *ack* WHAT!? :eek:

Here's this Elf. And he leaves the most beautiful place that ever existed because of his LOYALTY to his kin. This tart makes some lame excuse that she's not allowed to go into Exile with him (probably because she'll break a friggin' nail or muss her hair or some lame excuse like that). He faces a bitter battle at Alqualonde where he has to fight against his father's kin with his mother's kin, relatives dropping like flies left and right. Then Feanor (that rat) leaves him and the rest on the shores and they have to take a perilous journey across the ice. Again, he has to watch kin and friend die along THAT route. The perils, the tragedies, the bitter end at Tol-in-Gaurhoth!!!

Couldn't there have been someone to share his life, someone to bring joy to the bitter Exile, someone to say "come back alive with Beren"?

And where, oh where is Amarie in all of this? Reports say she was busy getting her hair and nails done at Aman Couturier!!!

arrrrgh! Must ... get ... control!!!

:D... er I mean :eek: this is a serious matter. You have a nicely coloured way of looking at these things.

Originally posted by Ruinel
Besides, how could anyone NOT fall for him. *swoons*
I'll take that as a rethorical question and retain my answer. *throws a bucket of water over Ruinel* ;)
However the fact remains that IF Amarië had decided to join him, Finrod wouldn't be a sad and brooding elf you two so obviously seem to fancy.

[Sister Golden Hair]

However the fact remains that IF Amarië had decided to join him, Finrod wouldn't be a sad and brooding elf you two so obviously seem to fancy. I thought I said that.:D Um, I don't think he brooded though.

[Earniel]

Sorry I tend to repeat what's been said when I have little to add from myself.

I just noted that I used a bit of ambigious wording. When I said brooding I intended NO reference to chickens. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

LOL!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
:rolleyes: Yes, I just finished reading those parts in Morgoth's Ring. This was the reason given Finrod gave to Andreth that Aegnor left her and didn't marry her.We have different views on this Ruinel. I think if you include the rest of what Finrod said, it emphasizes my point:This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine?I think this says Aegnor could not live with Andreth, and still be loyal to his kin and his duty. And later Finrod says this: Andreth, adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory, and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.So you see, I think Finrod had his fair memories, and I think he was content that his Amarie was safe in Aman. And he would probably hope to see her again, if so beyond his death.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
:D... er I mean :eek: this is a serious matter. You have a nicely coloured way of looking at these things.
The truth shall set us free.
Originally posted by Eärniel
[B*throws a bucket of water over Ruinel* ;)
However the fact remains that IF Amarië had decided to join him, Finrod wouldn't be a sad and brooding elf you two so obviously seem to fancy. [/B]
:eek: Whoa! That was cold!!! (re: bucket of water)
Not "sad and brooding", rather: deep, thoughtful, focused, strong, brave, fierce, loyal, kind, passionate... *sigh* ... I can't say more, there are children reading these posts. (I wouldn't want to corrupt them in some way.)

Artanis: Love is more important than anything, even duty to kin and to parents. For example, Thingol denied Luthien's marriage to Beren. Yet, Luthien defied her father's ban and helped Beren in his quest for the Silmaril Thingol demanded as a bride-price.

Quite honestly, I do not think that Elves and Men should marry unless one or the other is able to choose a life as the other (example, the Elf chooses to be Mortal or the Mortal chooses to be Elf). This is because of the Customs of the Eldar being unable to choose another mate during the life of Arda. It seems to me that if Aegnor married Andreth she would be more like a dearly loved pet that dies within a short span of the master's life (I'm sure to get some flack on that one).

SGH: "in their youth" could mean what between 50 and 100 yrs or maybe older? I get the impression that when Elves choose their mates, that they are of about the same age... although it doesn't really say that does it. hmmmmm. I must think on this some more. But... I still do NOT like Amarie, a lot.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
:eek: Whoa! That was cold!!! (re: bucket of water)
Not "sad and brooding", rather: deep, thoughtful, focused, strong, brave, fierce, loyal, kind, passionate... *sigh* ... I can't say more, there are children reading these posts. (I wouldn't want to corrupt them in some way.)


*hands Ruinel a towel* ;)

Well he does strikes me as sad and brooding. Though maybe the other words you used fit him in some way. Although 'fierce'?

You know I wonder what you were going to say further that was unsuitable for children. After all... *puts on mithril mail and put heavy shield before her* ...we are talking about a fictional character. What could you know about a fictional character that would be unsuitable for kids? (Unless Tolkien published some 'adult' version of the Silmarillion of which I know nothing of. :eek:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Although 'fierce'?
Yes....
Originally posted by Eärniel
...we are talking about a fictional character.
:eek: ... WHAT!!!!!!!!! Oh wait, you're right.
Originally posted by Eärniel
What could you know about a fictional character that would be unsuitable for kids? (Unless Tolkien published some 'adult' version of the Silmarillion of which I know nothing of. :eek:
The "adult version" is in my head. ;) And I'm not saying anymore, I'd be removed from Entmoot. ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Actually the Sil is an adult book, but what you two are discussing is there, you just have to read between the lines. Hey, that's what fanfic and Role play are made of, right?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Actually the Sil is an adult book, but what you two are discussing is there, you just have to read between the lines. Hey, that's what fanfic and Role play are made of, right?

I've never done the Role Play thing, not sure what fanfic is. I would be interested in "Role Play" is if I can "Roll in the Hay" with Finrod. ;) roflol!!:D

I also found Morgoth's Ring to be somewhat "adult" especially when JRRT was talking about "Begetting" (I wanted to beget with Finrod).

[Earniel]

There are role plays in the Role Play Forum here at the 'moot. You can come and take a look if you like. Although there are many other ways to rola play. One of our role players even has as username of Finrod Felagund. :D

Fanfics are stories fans write using characters and worlds already created by an author. I believe the Tolkien Trail has some fan fictions too (though I'm not just sure where).

note to one's self: Why don't you finish whatever you're doing and start on Morgoth's ring? :rolleyes:

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
One of our role players even has as username of Finrod Felagund. :D
note to one's self: Why don't you finish whatever you're doing and start on Morgoth's ring? :rolleyes:

He can not be as hot :cool: as the Finrod in my mind. It is not "humanly" possible. *suddenly... everyone rolls eyes and a collective sigh ensues :rolleyes: ; Ruinel is branded "Finrod FanGirl" :eek: GASP!!!* And to think that I am constantly bashing the Legolas FanGirls aka Orlando Bloom FanGirls :o . How embarrassing!!! Perhaps, I am a bit overly zealous about Finrod. *takes a step back for better observation.* hmmm, yep, I think so, but I am justified in being so (surely, someone else thinks so also).
yes, you absolutely must finish whatever you are doing and read Morgoth's Ring.

[Ruinel]

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!I found it!! I know when Finrod was born: 1300!!! YES!!!!! I am QUEEN!! I rock!!! He was 195 yrs old when the Noldor took leave of Aman. *puffs out chest in pride* Found it in *drum roll* Morgoth's Ring (Dang I'm good) *pats self on back*.:cool:

However, I have no idea when "the tart" was born... and I have no interest in knowing. Find that yourself if you want. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Only 195 years old. He was very young then. So, how old was he when he died?

[Ruinel]

He chanted a song of wizardry, Of piercing, opening, of treachery, //Revealing, uncovering, betraying.// Then suddden Felagund there swaying, //Sang in answer a song of staying, //Resisting, battling against power, //Of secrets kept, strength like a tower, //And trust unbroken, freedom, escape; //Of changing and of shifting shape, //Of snares eluded, broken traps, //The prison opening, the chain that snaps. //Backwards and forwards swayed thier song. //Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong //The chanting swelled, Felagund fought, //And all the magic and might he brought //Of Elvenesse into his words. //Softly in the gloom they heard the birds //Singing afar in Nargothrond, //The sighing of the Sea beyond, //Beyond the western world, on sand, //On sand of pearls of Elvenland....

-sigh.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Only 195 years old. He was very young then. So, how old was he when he died?

*sad/snif* He died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, defending Beren from the werewolf *tear drops down Ruinel's face* in the Second Age in the year 465. He was a mere 665 years of the Sun.

I... can't *snif* talk about it... anymore... so............. sad.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*sad/snif* He died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, defending Beren from the werewolf *tear drops down Ruinel's face* in the Second Age in the year 465. He was a mere 665 years of the Sun.

I... can't *snif* talk about it... anymore... so............. sad. Well, I know he died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, but it was in the First Age. So where did you get that figure. I'll wait until you stop bawling.:p Would that be added to his 195 years or included? Sounds like he was under a thousand years old. that would make him younger than Legolas was when he joined the Fellowship.

[Melko Belcha]

But also in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien says that 1 Year of the Trees was equal to 9.582 Sun Years. So he was 1,868 when he left Aman and 2,381 when he died.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, I know he died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, but it was in the First Age. So where did you get that figure. I'll wait until you stop bawling.:p Would that be added to his 195 years or included? Sounds like he was under a thousand years old. that would make him younger than Legolas was when he joined the Fellowship.

Well, I had to look in book 11 of HoME... The War of the Jewels. Woops, YS = year of the sun, what am I thinking, I'm so distaught.
But the years start over... so, I just did the math... born 1300 until Fingolfin et al cross Helkaraxe in 1500 = 200 yrs. "the ages of the Stars were ended, and the time of the Sun and Moon was begun" starts with year 1 through Finrod's death *snif* in 465 in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. 200 + 465 = 665 years.

By the way, where did you get the info on Legolas? :confused: I always thought that Legolas was an afterthought of JRRT and didn't have much of a history at all (other than his father Thranduil and grandsire Oropher).

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
But also in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien says that 1 Year of the Trees was equal to 9.582 Sun Years. So he was 1,868 when he left Aman and 2,381 when he died.

WOW!!! I completely forgot this! I AM distraught.

page 50: and each Year...is somewhat more than are nine and one half of our years (nine and one half and eight hundredths and yet a little).

I stand corrected.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, there is no actual factual number on Legolas' age. I think we have all assumed that he was a rather young elf when he joined the Fellowship. I think Michael Martinez has also written some essays and thing regarding all that is known of Legolas at Suite 101. All of the Legolas experts I have talked to hear and at SF-Fandom put Legolas to be about a thousand or a bit older. That would be young for an elf.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, there is no actual factual number on Legolas' age. I think we have all assumed that he was a rather young elf when he joined the Fellowship. I think Michael Martinez has also written some essays and thing regarding all that is known of Legolas at Suite 101. All of the Legolas experts I have talked to hear and at SF-Fandom put Legolas to be about a thousand or a bit older. That would be young for an elf.

Hmm... I didn't think JRRT had given him much thought. He's sort of the "token Elf" in the Fellowship. Really wished it had been Glorfindel instead or maybe Voronwe... now there's an Elf with a history. (Or secretly, wished it had been Finrod... but then he would not have followed Aragorn around like a puppy either.)

[Ruinel]

Just reworked the math for s & g's...

born 1300...in Aman, 1 yr in the light of the trees = 9.852 yrs in sun.
journey to Arda 1496 (assuming now that time is normal, since they leave Aman)... 1496 - 1300 = 196 yrs x 9.852 = 1930.992 yrs ... using sig figs... that's 1931 years.
age of stars ends 1500 add 4 years to that... 1935... then 465 years until ... well.. you know... 1935 + 465 = 2400 yrs old.

So, now back to the tart. I would assume that she was about the same age, because the alternative is unthinkable. As for the "not permitted" stance... Luthien was "not permitted" to take off after Beren and she did so against her father's ban. If she truely loved him... she would have gone with him. Period.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So 2,400 years old. What would he be equal to in human age, like to a 30 or 40 year old man?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
So 2,400 years old. What would he be equal to in human age, like to a 30 or 40 year old man?

:confused: Confused about the comparison? If the life expectancy of a Man is about 70 to 80 yrs. Then an Elf equivalent to 70 yrs old would only be ... 5000-ish years.

I don't think that age comparisons can really be made like that. Especially when they marry as early as 50 yrs. Besides, Elves are meant to live as long as Arda endures... much longer than 5000 years.