Did Galadriel get a divorce?

[Black Breathalizer]

In reading some of the reference materials, it appears that Galadriel left Middle-Earth in the years after the ring was destroyed while Celeborn chose to stay. Any of you Tolkien experts out there know whether the two truly separated or what was the deal?

[Lefty Scaevola]

No divorce is available for elves. They marry once and forever(or at least until the end of the Earth), and do not even part at death. The only exception is when a dead spouse forever renounces (in the hall of Nandos) the possibility of returning to life.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The only exception is when a dead spouse forever renounces (in the hall of Nandos) the possibility of returning to life.


That's Mandos not Nandos. Don't you hate when you hit the wrong key!

[celeb-galad]

Galadriel and Celeborn were reunited in Aman. Celeborn only lingered a while because Middle Earth was his home and has always been, and he was loath to leave it. But Elves had to leave, or they would eventually fade. So Celeborn left sometime in the Fourth Age.

[Fat middle]

i think that at the end of LOTR Prologue it says that Celeborn parted in the last ship.

i like to think that he remained in ME till Sam was old and then took him to Tol Eressea like the other ringbearers, but probably he remained even more time.

[BeardofPants]

Heehee. Nandos is a portuguese takeaway chain here in NZ. :D

[Lady of Rohan]

Originally posted by Fat middle
i like to think that he remained in ME till Sam was old and then took him to Tol Eressea like the other ringbearers, but probably he remained even more time.

That would have been nice wouldn't it? :D

[Lollypopgurl]

Cool! Never thought of that!

About Celeborn leaving with Sam I mean. :D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Heehee. Nandos is a portuguese takeaway chain here in NZ. :D

Really? Is it a name?

[Artanis]

Hello BB, The following quote is from the prologue to the LotR:
It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-Earth.Some say this is ambiguous, but I think the last sentence really proves he sailed West, eventually.

As Lefty Scaevola said, the Elves did not divorce, it was against their nature. They could be separated by distance, or even by death, but they would always remain a married couple. Finwë is the only known exception that we know of, and he married again only after his first wife had died and refused to be reincarnated. Even then he needed permission from the Valar, who granted it only after long and thorough discussions, even if they did not recommend it.

[sun-star]

What kind of wedding ceremony did Elves have anyway?

[Lefty Scaevola]

There have customary rituals, but they are social rather that legal. To be married take no more that a declaration to each other (possibly, with the gloossed over by a modest JRRT, addition of consumation).

[azalea]

But I'm sure many had a party to celebrate, yes?

[Artanis]

From "Laws and customs among the Eldar":Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party. In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned,(6) and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another.

[snip]

After the betrothal it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding, when at least one year had passed. Then at a feast, again (7) shared by the two houses, the marriage was celebrated. At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them. For this blessing there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwe by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). The betrothed then received back one from the other their silver rings (and treasured them); but they gave in exchange slender rings of gold, which were worn upon the index of the right hand.

Among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar; and the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride. These gifts were sometimes given before the feast.(Thus the gift of Galadriel to Aragorn, since she was in place of Arwen's mother, was in part a bridal gift and earnest of the wedding that was later accomplished.)

But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage; they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested,(8) and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but their two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete.Nice, yes? "Laws and customs" is a good read :)

[Lalaith]

From "Laws and customs among the Eldar":
Where do you have this?

And ..... Galadriel and Celeborn were apart other times before. When Galadriel left Eregion e.g. It is said that they often went different ways but finally got together again. Their marriage wasn't alltogether only happy and joy. They had fights but they still loved each other. Like a normal couple. Not this usual love/romance - beeing one forever - stuff.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Where do you have this?It is in the precious "History of Middle-Earth 10, Morgoth's Ring" :)

What you say about Galadriel and Celeborn having been apart for long periodes is true, but I don't know if they were having fights. What do you base that upon?

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Heehee. Nandos is a portuguese takeaway chain here in NZ. :D

I always knew that guy remembered me of someone.:D

[Lalaith]

What you say about Galadriel and Celeborn having been apart for long periodes is true, but I don't know if they were having fights. What do you base that upon?
I can't exactly tell a particular fight, but I think they often disagreed. Well, that wouldn't be fights, but they often didn't have the same opinion and so Galadriel went to this place and Celeborn to another. When I talked about fights I thought of Eregion and that I remember that they didn't agree about something, I'm not quite sure about what, but I guess it was because Galadriel knew that Sauron (not revealing himself as Sauron) was a bad person.
But if I'm wrong, tell me.

[Elvellon]

I think you are thinking of Celebrimbor, not Celeborn


Celebrimbor did love Galadriel, but she didn’t love him and liked more Celeborn. Celebrimbor did listen to Sauron in disguise but not Galadriel.

[Nurvingiel]

Two people who love each other can be apart for a long time, and still love each other.

They'd only get a divorce if they didn't love each other any more.

[Lalaith]

No, I was thinking of Celeborn. I know that Celebrimbor loved Galadriel, thats why he gave Nenya to her.

[Mortis]

hmmm....

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lalaith
No, I was thinking of Celeborn. I know that Celebrimbor loved Galadriel, thats why he gave Nenya to her. It doesn't say that anywhere. I rather think Galadriel was chosen to keep Nenya because of her reknown greatness and wisdom. She was one of few in Middle-Earth who had once lived in Valinor.

Perhaps you are thinking of the story where Celebrimbor gives the Elessar to Galadriel.

[Lalaith]

I thought he gave Nenya to Galadriel because he loved her, but I can be wrong. I'm not perfect so it is absolutely possible that I'm wrong this time.

[Artanis]

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't think it is so. You are entitled to think otherwise. But you stated your view as it was 'the truth', so I'm pointing out that the books give us no certain answer. :)

[Lalaith]

Oh, sorry, than I wrote it the wrong way.
It is only what I understood from what is said in the books, so it's my Truth.
So you think Celebrimbor gave Elessar to Galadriel because of his love and not Nenya? Could be possible.

[galadriel]

I've always assumed that Celebrimbor gave Nenya to Galadriel because he trusted her. After all, he'd just learned that Sauron had betrayed him. It was important that he give Nenya to someone whom he felt would be wise enough to bear it.

[Elf Girl]

What if the mother of the bride has gone West and the father of the bridegroom is dead?

Great quote Artanis. :) :) :)

[Lalaith]

I've always assumed that Celebrimbor gave Nenya to Galadriel because he trusted her. After all, he'd just learned that Sauron had betrayed him. It was important that he give Nenya to someone whom he felt would be wise enough to bear it.
Okay, that could be possible. I always thought only of the possibility that he gave the ring to Galadriel because he loved her, but your opinions now seem much more realistic to me.

[Ruinel]

'...said Galadriel,"...must then Middle-Earth fade and perish for ever?"
"That is its fate, I deem," said Celebrimbor. "But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened." ... Therefore he took thought, and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil, but yet its light had less power.... Radiant nonetheless was the Elessar of Celebrimbor; and he set it within a great brooch of silver in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings.'

Celeborn and Galadriel sometimes lived apart because of the evil that was growing. Or Celeborn was kickin some ass someplace. I couldn't find anyplace, nor do I remember, them disagreeing.
However, I know that Galadriel was not pleased that Celebrimbor, who she considered a friend, was having any dealings with Sauron.

Unifinished Tales.... peace folks.

[Ruinel]

Oh, yes, and I forgot.

"Galadriel counceled him (Celebrimbor) that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. It was at that time that she recieved Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor...."

Celebrimbor was in Lorinand to take counsel with Galadriel. He had found out about the One Ring and was very distressed, partly because he and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain had revolted against Celeborn and Galadriel in Eregion and drove her off through Kazad-dum to Lorinand (Lorien) with her 2 kids (or 1 depending on what book you are reading). Celeborn wouldn't go through Kazad-dum so he stayed in Eregion but Celebrimbor was indifferent to this.

So, Celebrimbor gave Nenya to her, true. But I think more because he trusted her, but the Elessar he gave her because he still loved her.

[Lalaith]

Okay, after all that I think I have to read the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales again.
And ... finally I got to read the passage where it is said that Celeborn actually left Middle-earth. I don't think that this was in the german edition.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Celebrimbor was in Lorinand to take counsel with Galadriel. He had found out about the One Ring and was very distressed, partly because he and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain had revolted against Celeborn and Galadriel in Eregion and drove her off through Kazad-dum to Lorinand (Lorien) with her 2 kids (or 1 depending on what book you are reading). Celeborn wouldn't go through Kazad-dum so he stayed in Eregion but Celebrimbor was indifferent to this.

Cool! Who is this other hypothetical kid, and which book is he/she in?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Cool! Who is this other hypothetical kid, and which book is he/she in?

At one time JRRT was experimenting about making Amroth to be Celeborn & Galadirel's son. but this a apparently abandoned in favor of a general policy of not changing facts that had already appeared in print, such as Amroth being the son of Oropher/Malgalad, as in the appedicies to LoTR.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
At one time JRRT was experimenting about making Amroth to be Celeborn & Galadirel's son. but this a apparently abandoned in favor of a general policy of not changing facts that had already appeared in print, such as Amroth being the son of Oropher/Malgalad, as in the appedicies to LoTR.

What Lefty said. I always wished Amroth had stayed Celeborn and Galadriel's son. It would have been nice for them to have had a child that decided to stay in M.E. with them.

[Nurvingiel]

That's cool! Well, the Prince of dol Amroth does have some elven blood. Maybe he's distantly related to Galadriel? Nah, that's too much of a stretch.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Dol Amroth is named after Amroth who drowned near there.
The prince have elvish blood but not from Amroth line (He was Sindarian). One of the princes had espoused a Nandorian Silvan Elf of lothlorien, who had been a Lady Companion to Nimrodel, the lost fiancee of Amroth. For many centuries the Silvan Elves had maintained a haven near Dol Amroth. Nimrodel was lost in the White Mountains of the way to the port, and when Amroth's ship was driven out to sea in a storm, he leap off to swin to shore to search for her and drowned.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Dol Amroth is named after Amroth who drowned near there.
The prince have elvish blood but not from Amroth line (He was Sindarian). One of the princes had espoused a Nandorian Silvan Elf of lothlorien, who had been a Lady Companion to Nimrodel, the lost fiancee of Amroth. For many centuries the Silvan Elves had maintained a haven near Dol Amroth. Nimrodel was lost in the White Mountains of the way to the port, and when Amroth's ship was driven out to sea in a storm, he leap off to swin to shore to search for her and drowned.

Yes, another sad story because the "Lady Companion to Nimrodel" marries a man, gives him 2 kids, then one night ....poof she disappears, never to be heard from again. Leaves him with 2 kids and a sink full of dishes. Poor guy.

[Lalaith]

At one time JRRT was experimenting about making Amroth to be Celeborn & Galadirel's son. but this a apparently abandoned in favor of a general policy of not changing facts that had already appeared in print, such as Amroth being the son of Oropher/Malgalad, as in the appedicies to LoTR.
Wasn't Oropher the father of Tranduil or am I completely wrong in this?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Wasn't Oropher the father of Tranduil or am I completely wrong in this?

Yes, Oropher is the father of Thranduil. He died in battle in the 1st war with Sauron over the Ring issue. Thraduil, however, survives with 1/3 of the people Oropher and Thranduil take into battle (Mirkwood elves suffured the most losses). So, yes, you are correct.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Wasn't Oropher the father of Tranduil or am I completely wrong in this? Yes... Amroth was the son of Amdir, aka Malgalad.

[Lefty Scaevola]

yep, Amdir/Malgalad

[Artanis]

Amdir and Malgalad was the same person? Was he Sindarin or Silvan?

[Lalaith]

But the Wood-elves never were fighters, they always didn't like to. (I think I remember this).

[galadriel]

I think Amdir was Sindarin like Oropher, but I'm not sure.

At any rate, Amroth's father was usually called Amdir, but once Tolkien used the name Malgalad instead. Same person, different name.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
But the Wood-elves never were fighters, they always didn't like to. (I think I remember this).

They were very independent, living in Mirkwood in small bands. Although they had a king, there really wasn't much order to the ruling of them. And that was fine for the kings who ruled them who really just wanted a kick-back kind of life anyway.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by galadriel
I think Amdir was Sindarin like Oropher, but I'm not sure.
.

Yep, Sindarin, see the bit in UT about the Sindarin prices among the silvan elves. IIRC it is appended to the end of the cahpter on Galadriel and Celeborn.

[Lalaith]

After that many names beeing written, who was the father of Amroth?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Amdir Malgalad

[Lalaith]

Amdir Malgalad
Thanks.

Do you think that Galadriel and Celeborn were made for each other? And when Celeborn left middle-earth did he go to Valinor or Tol Eressa? Where lived Galadriel then?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Thanks.

Do you think that Galadriel and Celeborn were made for each other? And when Celeborn left middle-earth did he go to Valinor or Tol Eressa? Where lived Galadriel then?

I can not imagine that they would have been parted beyond the sea. Galadriel already had lived in Valinor before the Doom of Mandos and the Oath of Feanor and the other Noldor. I don't remember if it says exactly where she went after she sailed but I always imagined her back in Valinor. As well, Celeborn later would have followed her there.

[Galin]

Since the Elessar-jewel was brought up in this thread, I have a question concerning the first of the two tales (the two tales published in Unfinished Tales).

In the first tale it is Gandalf who brings the Elessar to Galadriel 'who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood'. Galadriel sighs and says 'I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home'. According to Appendix B the Istari appear in Middle-earth in the Third Age and the Three Rings are hidden in Second Age 1693. Did not Galadriel possess Nenya long before Gandalf arrived? In the second version where she goes to Celebrimbor and basically says the same thing to him (as she had said to Gandalf), this is before she received Nenya, and in this tale it is noted that she basically felt she needed the Elessar no more after receiving her ring.

In reference to Galadriel receiving Nenya in the Second Age, in note nine to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, CJRT comments that she cannot have made use of its powers until a much later time, after the loss of the Ruling Ring. But again she is here seemingly talking to Gandalf roughly one thousand or more years after Isildur took the One. That said, I think I am maybe missing something obvious. I realize this text could have been revised or even rejected by JRRT himself, but I was wondering if anyone else had some thoughts in any case, or could enlighten me.

[Attalus]

I have always thought that the Three were hidden away by Celebrimbor and privately distributed to Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan sometime before 1697 S.A., when he was killed. They would not have been used before the Fall of Sauron in 3441 S.A. Even after that, I am sure they were first used cautiously and gingery until it was certain that they were (temporarily) free of the One.

[Gordis]

Since the Elessar-jewel was brought up in this thread, I have a question concerning the first of the two tales (the two tales published in Unfinished Tales).

In the first tale it is Gandalf who brings the Elessar to Galadriel 'who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood'. Galadriel sighs and says 'I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home'. According to Appendix B the Istari appear in Middle-earth in the Third Age and the Three Rings are hidden in Second Age 1693. Did not Galadriel possess Nenya long before Gandalf arrived? In the second version where she goes to Celebrimbor and basically says the same thing to him (as she had said to Gandalf), this is before she received Nenya, and in this tale it is noted that she basically felt she needed the Elessar no more after receiving her ring.

In reference to Galadriel receiving Nenya in the Second Age, in note nine to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, CJRT comments that she cannot have made use of its powers until a much later time, after the loss of the Ruling Ring. But again she is here seemingly talking to Gandalf roughly one thousand or more years after Isildur took the One. That said, I think I am maybe missing something obvious. I realize this text could have been revised or even rejected by JRRT himself, but I was wondering if anyone else had some thoughts in any case, or could enlighten me.

You are right, Galin, the version with Gandalf seems inferior to the version with Celebrimbor.
In defense of this first version I can only say that Galadriel only seemed to use Nenya for creating a "paradise" after she had settled in Lorien after TA 1980. Before that she lived here and there, but there was no special enchanted enclave associated with her.

[Galin]

So perhaps (judging from both responses so far) I should put emphasis on her using the Ring for preservation, and when -- not simply having the Ring -- meaning that even after 1,000 years of the Third Age she had not used it, and would only really do so after settling in Lothlorien?

The implication of the Gandalf version is that Galadriel is to wield the Elessar in the 'land of your dwelling' -- and in the Celebrimbor version she wields the Elessar and 'all things grew fair about Galadriel', this being before the events of the Third Age that led her to Lorien as a 'permanent' abode.

In other words, I would wonder why Galadriel waits untill after TA 1980, 1981 to be settled in Lorien to specifically wield Nenya, as she was already trying to preserve the land of her dwelling using the Elessar-jewel.

[Attalus]

I picture Galadriel as a trmented soul before she found Lorien to dwell in, always searching for a place that reminded her of Valinor, and trying all sorts of 'elf-magic' to make them so. Finally she found Lorien and it all fell into place, where her jewels could recreate her home to a degree that she could resist the sea-longing.