The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor

[Artanis]

Some discussion points:

(1) Melkor was the first to be aware of the awakening of the Elves. Again I'm filled with astonishment of the Valar, who for the most part stayed in Valinor and did not discover the awakening of the Quendi, but let Melkor be aware of them first and thus enabled him to do his evil deeds against them. Shouldn't they have been at least as watchful as Melkor was? What do you think?

(2)Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And Oromë looking upon the Elves was filled with wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen; for so it shall ever be with the Valar. From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold.Can you figure out the meaning of this? Oromë knew the Elves would come, and yet he was filled with wonder, as if it was unforeseen?

(3)
And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over Middle-earth. What were these monsters that Melkor bred, and from which origin?

(4)
Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship. At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying: 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell. Do you think the Valar did right to summon the Elves to Valinor? Did they do it out of selfishness, because they 'desired their fellowship'. The Elves awoke in Middle-Earth, does that indicate that Middle-Earth was the place appointed to them?

(5)
At length the Vanyar and the Noldor came over Ered Luin, the Blue Mountains, between Eriador and the westernmost land of Middle-earth, which the Elves after named Beleriand; and the foremost companies passed over the Vale of Sirion and came down to the shores of the Great Sea between Drengist and the Bay of Balar. But when they beheld it great fear came upon them, and many withdrew into the woods and highlands of Beleriand. This is intriguing. Why would the Elves fear the Sea so strongly?

(6)The Vanyar were most loved by Manwë, and recieved song and poetry from him. Aulë was named Friend of the Noldor, and he teached them much lore of craft. The Teleri were most befriended by Ulmo, from whom they learned much about music and the flowing of all waters. If this diversement among the Elves was the design of Ilúvatar, what was his purpose? Any thoughts?

And at last
(7)
But at the last the gates of Utumno were broken and the halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age. Anyone else except me that would want to watch that wrestling match? Tulkas Champion of the Valar vs. Melkor :D

[Artanis]

Additional readings for this chapter:

HoME 1, Book of Lost Tales 1: The coming of the Elves and the making of Kor.
HoME 5, The lost Road: Quenta Silmarillion: 3(a) Of the coming of the Elves
HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring: The later Quenta Silmarillion, I-3 Of the coming of the Elves

And this (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/sil-cuivienen.jpg) is Ted Nasmith's vision of the Elves beneath the newly-wrought stars at lake Cuiviénen.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Some discussion points:

(1) Melkor was the first to be aware of the awakening of the Elves. Again I'm filled with astonishment of the Valar, who for the most part stayed in Valinor and did not discover the awakening of the Quendi, but let Melkor be aware of them first and thus enabled him to do his evil deeds against them. Shouldn't they have been at least as watchful as Melkor was? What do you think?Doesn't it say some where that the Valar became weary of going into Middle-earth to undo the damage that Morgoth had caused? They must have resigned themselves to forsake Middle-earth to a degree, and that left the Quendi vulnerable.


(2)Can you figure out the meaning of this? Oromë knew the Elves would come, and yet he was filled with wonder, as if it was unforeseen?The Valar were aware that the Firstborn would awake, but they did not know where, and I think that the Elves were made so fair and beautiful, that it was even beyond the comprehension of the Valar. It just wasn't what they expected.

(3)
What were these monsters that Melkor bred, and from which origin?Hmmm. Good question. There seems to be many evil creatures that we don't meet, and that Tolkien gives no specifics on.

(4)
Do you think the Valar did right to summon the Elves to Valinor? Did they do it out of selfishness, because they 'desired their fellowship'. The Elves awoke in Middle-Earth, does that indicate that Middle-Earth was the place appointed to them?We've talked about this before. I was always under the impression that the Elves were meant to live in Middle-earth, and that that was the whole purpose of its creation. As for the Valar having selfish motives for inviting the Quendi to Aman: It may have been a combination of selfishness and concern for their safety, and by having them come to Aman made it easier to protect them, but I think when the Valar saw them, they loved them, and saw that the Quendi were much like them in spirit, and therefore wanted to be with them.

(5)
This is intriguing. Why would the Elves fear the Sea so strongly?That is a puzzle.

(6)The Vanyar were most loved by Manwë, and recieved song and poetry from him. Aulë was named Friend of the Noldor, and he teached them much lore of craft. The Teleri were most befriended by Ulmo, from whom they learned much about music and the flowing of all waters. If this diversement among the Elves was the design of Ilúvatar, what was his purpose? Any thoughts? It does seem that Eru made each race of the Eldar with different interests, talents, etc. Maybe a good question to ask would be: What was Tolkien's purpose? He made them all fair, intelligent, and immortal, but in order to inject the strife that existed between the races, I think they had to be different in other ways.

And at last
(7)
Anyone else except me that would want to watch that wrestling match? Tulkas Champion of the Valar vs. Melkor :D OMG yes. How entertaining it would be to watch Morgoth get a big butt whoopen.:D

[Wayfarer]

Melkor was the first to be aware of the awakening of the Elves. Again I'm filled with astonishment of the Valar, who for the most part stayed in Valinor and did not discover the awakening of the Quendi, but let Melkor be aware of them first and thus enabled him to do his evil deeds against them. Shouldn't they have been at least as watchful as Melkor was? What do you think? A few reasons:
~Melkor was in Middle Earth, the Valar were in Valinor. Only Yavanna, Orome, Ulmo, and Manwe paid anny attention to th real world, and only yavanna and orome ever went there. Melkor not only lived in the place, he had servants everywhere.
~The Elves also awoke on the other side of the world from valinor. Obviously the place where they were least interested.
~Melkor was intent on dominating middle earth, and so was active everywhere. The valar had no idea when the elves would show up, and so weren't terribly vigilant.

Can you figure out the meaning of this? Oromë knew the Elves would come, and yet he was filled with wonder, as if it was unforeseen? Let me put it this way: If I tell you 'some day you're going to read lord of the rings and realize how great it is', does that really prepare you for what it's like when you actually get into it for the first time? The elves were something like that. Orome had no idea what they were going to be, only that they were coming.What were these monsters that Melkor bred, and from which origin? He bred anything he could, from anything he could get his hands on. He wasn't picky.Do you think the Valar did right to summon the Elves to Valinor? Did they do it out of selfishness, because they 'desired their fellowship'. The Elves awoke in Middle-Earth, does that indicate that Middle-Earth was the place appointed to them? I think the valar were wrong to hide away in valinor in the first place. I certainly think they were wrong to attempt to secure the elves away from the world.The Vanyar were most loved by Manwë, and recieved song and poetry from him. Aulë was named Friend of the Noldor, and he teached them much lore of craft. The Teleri were most befriended by Ulmo, from whom they learned much about music and the flowing of all waters. If this diversement among the Elves was the design of Ilúvatar, what was his purpose? Any thoughts? The elves each had specific traits, and gravitated towards the vala who shared those traits. No biggie.Anyone else except me that would want to watch that wrestling match? Tulkas Champion of the Valar vs. Melkor Let's get ready to rumble!

[markedel]

Isn't the sea not only good, but also chaotic. Osse was almost seduced by Morgoth into seriving him-so it remains fearful and awesome, even if it also is symbolic of communication with divine.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by markedel
Isn't the sea not only good, but also chaotic. Osse was almost seduced by Morgoth into seriving him-so it remains fearful and awesome, even if it also is symbolic of communication with divine. Speculating loudly: One could almost suspect Ulmo of injecting fear into the Elves, to keep them from going to Aman - after all he did oppose to the idea in the council of the Valar. Or perhaps Melkor by some means had been able to put fear into their hearts.

[Maedhros]

From The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar Cuivienyarna
While their first bodies were being made from the 'flesh of Arda' the Quendi slept 'in the womb of the Earth', beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown. But the First Elves (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her 'destined spouse'. But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in strange places. These three Elf-fathers are named in the ancient tales Imin,Tata, and Enel. They awoke in that order, but with little time between each; and from them, say the Eldar, the words for one, two, and three were made: the oldest of all numerals.
And so it was that the Quendi ever after reckoned in twelves, and that 144 was for long their highest number, so that in none of their later tongues was there any common name for a greater number. And so also it came about that the 'Companions of Imin' or the Eldest Company (of whom came the Vanyar) were nonetheless only fourteen in all, and the smallest company; and the 'Companions of Tata' (of whom came the Ñoldor) were fifty-six in all; but the 'Companions of Enel' although the Youngest Company were the largest; from them came the Teleri (or Lindar), and they were in the beginning seventy-four in all.
Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and
green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight;
but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrow-dim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda. But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.
I thought it would be appropiate to bring something more specific in regards to the Awakening of the Elves.
Interesting to note that these three elves that first awoke were not the Elves chosen by Oromë as ambassadors. (In the case of Finwë, he chose his spouse MÃ*riel in Valinorë, and Elwë spoused a Maia.)
I wonder what the Eldest elves thought of that?

[Maedhros]

Melkor was the first to be aware of the awakening of the Elves. Again I'm filled with astonishment of the Valar, who for the most part stayed in Valinor and did not discover the awakening of the Quendi, but let Melkor be aware of them first and thus enabled him to do his evil deeds against them. Shouldn't they have been at least as watchful as Melkor was? What do you think?
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
The last effort of this sort made by the Valar was the raising up of the Pelóri — but this was not a good act: it came near to countering Morgoth in his own way - apart from the element of selfishness in its object of preserving Aman as a blissful region to live in.
From Morgoth's Ring: The Converse of Manwë and Eru
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of MÃ*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it
The Valar are not perfect.
Can you figure out the meaning of this? Oromë knew the Elves would come, and yet he was filled with wonder, as if it was unforeseen?
Because he saw for the first time, the glory of Ilúvatar.
What were these monsters that Melkor bred, and from which origin?
The Valar created a complete ecosystem in Arda, with plants and animal life.
Do you think the Valar did right to summon the Elves to Valinor? Did they do it out of selfishness, because they 'desired their fellowship'. The Elves awoke in Middle-Earth, does that indicate that Middle-Earth was the place appointed to them?
They were selfish.
The Vanyar were most loved by Manwë, and recieved song and poetry from him. Aulë was named Friend of the Noldor, and he teached them much lore of craft. The Teleri were most befriended by Ulmo, from whom they learned much about music and the flowing of all waters. If this diversement among the Elves was the design of Ilúvatar, what was his purpose? Any thoughts?
Well, to me the Vanyar are like the most useless elves that one can hope to meet.
Aulë was a friend of the Ñoldor but after the exile, he didn't do didly squat for them unlike Ulmo. Even Manwë send Torondor to rescue the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor, the one who was so powerful that only his great grace could temper the strenght of his step.
The Teleri are just Teleri, they just made their ships and that was their great acomplishment, with the exception of Lúthien.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Interesting to note that these three elves that first awoke were not the Elves chosen by Oromë as ambassadors. (In the case of Finwë, he chose his spouse MÃ*riel in Valinorë, and Elwë spoused a Maia.)
I wonder what the Eldest elves thought of that? Good question :) One should think the three that first awoke would be the leaders of their people.

Where did the reckoning in twelves come from? Did I completely miss something?

The Valar are not perfect.They're certainly not perfect. I'm glad there's someone except me who see their selfishness. :)

[Wayfarer]

Where did the reckoning in twelves come from? Did I completely miss something? Yes. Elves have six fingers.

[Artanis]

Very funny.:p

[Elvet]

Regarding Melkor knowing the elves first:
I'm with Wayfarer on this one. I think that Melkor's domain was Middle Earth and he was vigilant over his lands. The Valar that came to M-E were more like absentee landlords, checking out their favorite haunts and the environment that they wrought.
They would have had to meet the elves almost by chance.

Regarding the wonder of Orome:
As said before, the reality of the elves was far more astounding that he Valar could ever have imagined.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold.'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this quote alot. It reminds me of the phrase 'seeing through the eyes of a child'.

The monsters of Melkor:
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but I'll give you my conjectures.
Balrogs - corrupted Maiar
Trolls - corrupted Ents
Orcs - corrupted elves
Wraith's flying steeds - corrupted eagles
Wargs - corrupted wolves

Should the elves have been left to their own devices?
Like other posters, I think they were intended to stay in the realm of Middle-earth, but there wouldn't be much of a story
then. I think that the Valar had some selfish motives, but they truly wanted to keep the Eldar protected. They were selfish in that they wanted to impart their wisdom and council on the elves, rather than leaving them to their own development. By keeping the elves under their wing, they protected them from evil. But it was inevitable that some of the elves would come to see this protection as a type of constraint and would seek independence.
This rebellion was how I interpreted Mandros' "So it is doomed'.
Pehaps this lesson was why the Valar distanced themselves from men.


Why the Elves feared the sea:
This was when they saw the seas for the first time, before the ocean became a conduit to the safety of Aman.


The diversity of Eldar interest:
I think that this is nothing more than Tolkien's fashion of cultural differences. It also lessens the chance of a 'super race' of elves. Each has their own forte thus bringing their expertise to the management of Middle-earth's diverse ecosystems - forests, coastlines, plains, mountains etc.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Artanis
They're certainly not perfect. I'm glad there's someone except me who see their selfishness. :)
I would think that RÃ*an shares that assesment too Artanis.;)

[Artanis]

Aaargh! Where are you, RÃ*an? I can't be both of us here all the time.... :D

[azalea]

I am not very learned in The Silmarillion, but here are my thoughts on some of the matters being discussed:

My personal feeling is that Eru was right, the Valar should have stayed in ME to keep Melkor in check. It makes sense that if Arda was wrought for the Children, that is where they were intended to live. It almost seems like a big mistake that the Valar had them come to Valinor. Instead, the Valar should have gone to dwell in Arda. This brings a question into my mind, why the elves that did not go to Valinor were the "lesser" elves (aside from the fact that those that did go learned from the Valar themselves, they were more blessed it seems, and did Eru intend for this to be the case?). So did Eru foresee this taking place? Did he know the elves would be led out of ME?
Elvet's take on the matter reminded me of discussion elsewhere on Gandalf taking the one ring: it was speculated that the corruption of his power would be manifest in his oppression of all because of his ultimate decision-making being done "for their own good," rather than allowing them to govern themselves freely. (ugh, what a poorly written sentence. I hope you could get what I meant out of that). This reminds me of the Valar doing what they did because they felt they knew what was best, rather than allowing the elves to develop on their own with help given in the realm prepared for them. And I agree, the Valar seemed to see that the result of their actions was bad enough that by the time men came, they had learned their lesson in that respect, but I think they still should have given guidance and been involved, just to a lesser extent.

The sea -- to me it makes sense that beings who had come from the earth would fear the sea out of inexperience. It is vast and they were made to live on land, so crossing a body of water that big would understandably have made them nervous to the point of "You ain't getting me over that!" Perhaps similar to people who feared air travel when airplanes were first used for commercial flight, and refused to fly.

The three branches of the Eldar with their distinct specialties reminds me of the three kinds of hobbit. I too think JRRT liked diversity among "his peoples."

Melkor's monsters -- what about the werewolves and vampires? And don't forget Ungoliant -- a corrupted Maia as well?

Although I don't post much here, I read every post and have learned a lot. It really helps me to understand The Silmarillion better. Thanks for doing this!
:)

[Earniel]

(1) Melkor was the first to be aware of the awakening of the Elves. Again I'm filled with astonishment of the Valar, who for the most part stayed in Valinor and did not discover the awakening of the Quendi, but let Melkor be aware of them first and thus enabled him to do his evil deeds against them. Shouldn't they have been at least as watchful as Melkor was? What do you think?

If they had been a little more watchful things might indeed have turned out better. I guess that the beauty of Valinor lulled their responsibility-feelings towards the darker part of Middle-earth somewhat. But on the other hand, the Elves woke right under Melkor's nose, so to speak. It might be possible that he even stalled the discovery of the Elves by the Valar so he would have more time to work his evil tricks. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if he had.

(2)Can you figure out the meaning of this? Oromë knew the Elves would come, and yet he was filled with wonder, as if it was unforeseen?

He knew they were coming but he had never actualy seen them before except in the vision that Ilúvatar showed them. I'm guessing that he knew more or less how the Elves would look, but the real thing often beats the best description. Besides the Elves were very different from any other creature that lived then. It must have been thrilling to come upon creatures so like and yet so unlike themselves.

(4) Do you think the Valar did right to summon the Elves to Valinor? Did they do it out of selfishness, because they 'desired their fellowship'. The Elves awoke in Middle-Earth, does that indicate that Middle-Earth was the place appointed to them?

Personally I think distancing themselves in fair Valinor was a mistake in the first place. They put themselves in a difficult position, it is very hard for any guardian to protect something that is far away. I think the Valar realised that a little too late. If they had challenged Melkor earlier and had remained on the eastern shores, things would have been better. But obviously the Valar had no wish to contest with Melkor there.

The only way out of the problem was to bring the Elves to Valinor. I think that at the time the Valar really thought of it as for the best. I got the impression that the Valar considered the eastern shores as 'lost' to Melkor and that any strife over his dominion would only lead to more damage, something the Valar wanted to avoid as much as possible. In that view, bringing the Elves to Valinor would be as saving them. It's difficult to determine which reason moved them the most: to save the Elves or to enjoy the Elves' company. Both played a role.

The Valar wanted to preserve all they could. I wonder if that isn't a trait they passed on to the Elves. If I think of Galadriel I remember how she wanted to preserve the beauty of Lothlorien forever. It is in my eyes also a negative effect from moving the Elves to Valinor. While Valinor is eternally beautiful and undying, the mortal lands 'die' and are reborn each series of seasons. After their stay in Valinor it seemed as if there were but little Elves who could enjoy those constant changes of the world. Which is sad if those lands were indeed intended for the Elves in the first place. In a way it's tainting the gift.

Anyone else except me that would want to watch that wrestling match? Tulkas Champion of the Valar vs. Melkor

Where can I buy tickets? And popcorn? :D

[Rían]

OK, just to astonish everyone, I'm going to disagree with Artanis! :D I don't really see the Valar's primary problem as selfishness. I see it more as timidity, or "lack of estel (hope)", as Maedhros quoted. IOW, not trusting in Ilúvatar to take care of things as they step out and actively fight evil.

And re the sea - I can well imagine their fear! Picture awakening on dry land and only seeing small bodies of water or rivers, then coming over a hill one day and seeing .... THE SEA! Vast, tumultuous, stretching as far as you can see - it must have been quite a sight for them! Then maybe one or two of the bravest would venture out into the waves a bit, and end up with a mouthful of sand as they got knocked over! I've lived in California all of my life, within an hour of the Pacific Ocean, and the sights and sounds of the ocean still amaze me.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah but Tolkien says that all the Elves had a longing for the sea in their haerts. In some it slumbered.

[Maedhros]

OK, just to astonish everyone, I'm going to disagree with Artanis!
RÃ*an, how could you.:(
I think that at the time the Valar really thought of it as for the best. I got the impression that the Valar considered the eastern shores as 'lost' to Melkor and that any strife over his dominion would only lead to more damage, something the Valar wanted to avoid as much as possible. In that view, bringing the Elves to Valinor would be as saving them. It's difficult to determine which reason moved them the most: to save the Elves or to enjoy the Elves' company. Both played a role.
The Valar lacked estel.
My personal feeling is that Eru was right, the Valar should have stayed in ME to keep Melkor in check.
Ok, but can Ilúvatar be wrong?
Although I don't post much here, I read every post and have learned a lot. It really helps me to understand The Silmarillion better. Thanks for doing this!
I'm glad that you posted azalea. :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
OK, just to astonish everyone, I'm going to disagree with Artanis! :D Hear, hear! Now we're getting somewhere! :D
I don't really see the Valar's primary problem as selfishness. I see it more as timidity, or "lack of estel (hope)", as Maedhros quoted. IOW, not trusting in Ilúvatar to take care of things as they step out and actively fight evil.
But even if they could not trust Ilúvatar to aid them in war, how could they just retreat from everything? Real valour is to fight on even when there's no hope left, not even Estel. But the Valar fled and created a paradise for themselves, and laid the rest of the world more or less open to Melkor.Then Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.' The phrase 'take up again' implies to me that the Valar had earlier abandoned their task.

Maedhros, I would say Ilúvatar could not be wrong, simply because He is setting the standard of 'rightness'. If Ilúvatar could be wrong, it would imply a power even greater than Him.

Originally posted by Eärniel
The Valar wanted to preserve all they could. I wonder if that isn't a trait they passed on to the Elves. If I think of Galadriel I remember how she wanted to preserve the beauty of Lothlorien forever. It is in my eyes also a negative effect from moving the Elves to Valinor. While Valinor is eternally beautiful and undying, the mortal lands 'die' and are reborn each series of seasons. After their stay in Valinor it seemed as if there were but little Elves who could enjoy those constant changes of the world. Which is sad if those lands were indeed intended for the Elves in the first place. In a way it's tainting the gift.Good observation Eärniel :) The Moriquendi were happier in Middle-Earth, weren't they?

azalea, I like your thoughts about how the Valar's actions would resemble Gandalf vielding the One Ring. :)

[Dunadan]

Hello

Just a quick question for now:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrow-dim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.
(quoted above by Maedhros from The War of the Jewels)

Sun?? I thought that there was only starlight when the Elves woke. Correct me if I'm wrong...

cheers

d.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Sun?? I thought that there was only starlight when the Elves woke. Correct me if I'm wrong...Um - IIRC, in 'Myths transformed', CRT explains how JRRT experimented with changing the cosmology and the creation myth in his later days. He did not succeed, but in the new cosmology the sun and the moon was not made from the fruits of Telperion and Laurelin, but were present from the very beginning of Arda.

I have no idea whether that quote is related to Myths transformed, though. But quick questions deserve quick answers ;)

[Dunadan]

Thanks for that. Let's assume that the Sil takes precedence for now.

I too am confused by the ambivalent attitude of the Valar towards the Elves. It seems at odds with their "we love all of Arda" personae in earlier chapters. However, I think this chapter starts to set out the limitations of their earthly forms a bit more clearly (physical, mental and moral), while at the same time muddying the waters as to what's to come.

Clearly,the Vision of Iluvatar was brief and soon taken away
which accounts for the fact that no-one knew where or when the Elves would appear, or whether they'd have six fingers or just one big middle one. However, you'd have thought it would make them all the more vigilant. I agree with pretty much what you've all said re: selfishness and torpor. Yavanna, Ulmo and Tulkas are cool; the rest are just up themselves.

Previously, I'd thought that all the elves' troubles could be traced to Feanor, but I've now changed my mind. The pivotal moment is where the Valar decree that they are to be summoned to Aman; after that, the elves have no free will.

Which brings me to my second point: muddy waters. What do you think about Mandos saying:
So it is doomed. ?
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?

The answer goes back to the issue of free will. Have the valar robbed them of it, or did they never have it in the first place? Maybe that's what the Valar couldn't get their heads around: they were afraid of free will.

More generally, in this chapter we're seeing the language change to one of ambiguity. Stuff like:..the shapes of the lands and the seas have been remade...
...as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen...
But of those .. ensnared by Melkor little is known for certainty.
Aule was grieved, foreboding the hurts of the world
etc etc., not to mention the spawning of the numerous taxonomies of elf kindreds. Either Tolkien is leaving lots of doors open for himself for later stories, or he's showing how the pace of change in the world was overtaking the Valar's ability to understand it. Or maybe not. What do others think?

cheers

d.

[azalea]

Can Iluvatar be wrong? No, I certainly don't think so. But the big question is Were the Valar's actions part of his plan, or was it his plan to let them act as they would in governing Arda? He would either have orchestrated the whole thing beforehand (orchestrated, get it?) or he would have set things up and let the chips fall where they may based on the actions of the Valar (aside from deciding where and when the children would awake -- and had he already decided where and when, or did he decide later based on what was happening?)
I tend to think he foresaw what would happen, and since it was all part of his greater plan, what the Valar did became incidental (in a larger sense, not meaning to make their actions sound unimportant), since he was in charge anyway. Thus, I think the Valar were not acting out any preordained plan, but were acting of their own freewill, trying to govern as they felt Eru would want it, but then acting somewhat contrary to his plan it would seem ("okay, things are getting messed up, let's jump ship") I liken it to the statement in the Ainulindale (?) that although Melkor "messed up" the music, it would only serve to further Iluvaltar's own plan. Likewise, the actions of the Valar could not ultimately be "wrong," because what ever course of action they took and whatever events were set in motion as a result would always lead back to the right "path."
I guess that means there is no "should have" necessary, just as Gandalf counseled Frodo re: Bilbo's pity of Gollum (it always seems to lead back to LotR for me!:) ).

What was the question again?:p

[Lefty Scaevola]

1. In myths transformed JRRT clarified that to a substantial extent before this time the Valar were kept out of ME by the power of Melkor, and their overestimation of that power, and that they were suprised that their vicotry over Melkor was not much more difficult, and were suprised at how much Kmelkor had dissapated his power.


As to Imin, Tatya, & Enel, the first Elves, they may have been mythological, or may have perished during Melkors predations. In any case the Elves had little leadership structure at or before this time, being barely tribal, and the strong personalities of Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were able to organized them. I suspect many of the non finwean Noldor princes, like Glofindal, Gulin, Gwindor, may have the status in part by claimed descent from Tatya.

[Lefty Scaevola]

3. some of these dark monster may have been non reproductive 'mules' and thus died out, others may have lacked enough self preservation untinct (being bred deliberately for war) or luck to have hidden and survied the war in breeding populations.

[Maedhros]

Likewise, the actions of the Valar could not ultimately be "wrong," because what ever course of action they took and whatever events were set in motion as a result would always lead back to the right "path."
Like the rebellion of Fëanor that in the end was the best thing for Arda.

[azalea]

Maedhros, you are so cryptic! I can't tell if you're actually supporting what I'm saying or being sarcastic!:confused:
Let's assume you're being sarcastic, and your implication is that Feanor's rebellion (getting ahead of ourselves, but oh, well) was the cause of all future troubles in ME. I meant that ULTIMATELY Iluvatar's plan must be adhered to, so the whole Feanor fiasco and all that it caused STILL only led back to what Iluvatar envisioned, I presume with manipulation from him along the way. It is possible that there were an infinite number of possible "looks" to the path to the final outcome (whatever that may be), and that the Feanor freak out, etc., was just the "look of the path" that ended up taking place. There were perhaps more desirable ways it could have looked, and I certainly don't understand why Iluvatar would have allowed all of the suffering of innocents that took place as a result of this, but neither do I understand his allowing Melkor reign over Arda as he did, among other things. But I think his nature as Tolkien wrote him is omnipotent but allowing the free will of all. However, as all are his creation, any action they take will lead back to him and his music in the end.
Am I clear?:D

[Artanis]

azalea, let's assume Maedhros is not sarcastic (I don't think he is btw), then I agree with him. Fëanor's rebellion caused the Noldor to return to Middle-Earth, and in the long years after they were the chief enemies of Melkor, restraining his power and postponing his evil dominance, whence the Valar sat in their ivory towers doing nothing. If you think of it, the rebellion could by subtle ways have been a part of Ilúvatar's design, either original or adapted, to bring some of the Elves back to Middle-Earth, from where they never should have left in the first place.

Lefty Scaevola, good point about the tribal structure of the Elves' community. :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?Indeed a good question. I tend to believe the latter, because as you said, it is a question of whether there exists such a thing as free will or not.

[Dunadan]

I agree. In which case, is this the moment at which the Valar attempt to deprive the Elves of their free will? And again, if so, who can blame Feanor for giving them the vickies and going back to ME?

Why wouldn't they be happy just to let them roam freely once Melkor was chained? Given what Melian achieved in Doriath, a few more of the Ainur going amongst the Elves would have helped them to more than repair the damage he'd caused.

Another ambiguous thing which interests me is the reference to the "whispers" which Melkor sent abroad against the Valar. How?? I thought the Elves were the first (non-Ainur) to make words..

cheers

d.

[Maedhros]

Let's assume you're being sarcastic
How could you azalea?:(
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
This was my meaning.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."?

I think there's a third option. I don't think that it has always been doomed that way (funny about the "pompous portentious comment!") - your option 1. I don't think that the decision "doomed" the elves, either, in the sense of "uh oh, they're really in trouble now!" (which is I think what you meant) - your option 2.

Rather, I think it's kind of a "so be it" comment that means "well, this was a pretty important subject, and we've talked a lot about it, and now we've come to a final decision, although some may disagree, to summon the Elves to Valinor. So be it - let the chips fall where they may." IOW, I think 'doom' was meant in the 'decree' sense of the word.

[Artanis]

Dunadan, I'm going to agree with RÃ*an now ;) , on the meaning of the word 'doomed'. My answer was clearly ambiguous, and perhaps you read me wrong. I was just stating that I believe free will do always exist, and nothing is completely outlaid in advance.

Originally posted by Dunadan
Why wouldn't they be happy just to let them roam freely once Melkor was chained? Given what Melian achieved in Doriath, a few more of the Ainur going amongst the Elves would have helped them to more than repair the damage he'd caused.I agree completely.

Originally posted by Dunadan
Another ambiguous thing which interests me is the reference to the "whispers" which Melkor sent abroad against the Valar. How?? I thought the Elves were the first (non-Ainur) to make words..The Elves just thought they were the first to make words, because they hadn't yet met the Valar:Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think there's a third option. I don't think that it has always been doomed that way (funny about the "pompous portentious comment!") - your option 1. I don't think that the decision "doomed" the elves, either, in the sense of "uh oh, they're really in trouble now!" (which is I think what you meant) - your option 2.

Rather, I think it's kind of a "so be it" comment that means "well, this was a pretty important subject, and we've talked a lot about it, and now we've come to a final decision, although some may disagree, to summon the Elves to Valinor. So be it - let the chips fall where they may." IOW, I think 'doom' was meant in the 'decree' sense of the word.
I didn't mean "doom" as in Private Fraser out of Dad's Army ("we're all dooooomed, I tell you, dooooomed!"), I meant doom as in fate, good or bad, which seems the same as what you said in option 3.

The thing is, did they change the fates of the Elves by doing so? Were the elves thus consigned to dwindle into obscurity unless they responded to the summons?

It's clear that the elves still retained free will, but that the Valar didn't understand it, or else they wouldn't have tried to remove it. It also seems that the elves were made to pay for it in spades throughout the ages that followed.

cheers

d.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Maedhros
How could you azalea?:(


:eek: Now I feel all guilty!:( I'm sorry! I guess that's why I made the disclaimer that I don't know much, but wanted to post anyway. I've never read Myths Transformed, and haven't even finished The Silm, so at the point where I am in the book it seems like the worst thing that could have happened: the slaughter and sundering of so many all because of a headstrong and misguided elf, and the cause of strife between the elves,which weakens them against Morgoth, IMO. I hadn't thought of it in the way it is presented in the quote you gave! Consider me educated.:)

That's why I thought you might have been sarcastic, because to me it seemed to bring "doom" to ME: that is a main cause of the Valar going with an even more "hands off" approach. I just couldn't tell one way or the other if you were supporting my post, so I took the default mode of giving further opinion to back it up. I was going to say, "If you weren't, then just ignore the above defense.:cool: ," but I forgot. Does that clear it up? Am I forgiven? I will not doubt your intentions again.:)

Dunadan, I agree with what you just said.

[Rían]

Now we're getting into that tricky area of free will again :D - difficult concept to talk about...

Originally posted by Dunadan
[B]I didn't mean "doom" as in Private Fraser out of Dad's Army ("we're all dooooomed, I tell you, dooooomed!"), I meant doom as in fate, good or bad, which seems the same as what you said in option 3. Funny quote! "dooooooomed!" I don't know the show you're talking about, but I can picture it :D But I still see a slight distinction between what you say is "fate, good or bad", and "decree". I could be wrong (been there, done that!) but to me fate is more ... oh, I suppose definite. Now the decree was that the Valar would try to get the Eldar to come to Valinor. At this point, there is nothing really fated for the Elves. They might refuse or they might come (actually, they did some of each). But what actually will happen as a result of the doom/decree of the Authorities is up to the free will choices of the Elves.

The thing is, did they change the fates of the Elves by doing so? Were the elves thus consigned to dwindle into obscurity unless they responded to the summons? They did change it, I think, but only in the sense of any decision changing someone's fate. I doubt if the elves would have dwindled into obscurity either way, because I think whatever the decision would have been about Valinor, the elves in themselves had an inherent greatness (relative to the other parts of creation, such as animals) given to them by Ilúvatar, that would prevent them from being obscure anywhere they went. Now perhaps their history would have been less sorrowful, though, had they not gone, but who knows? But I think they would NOT have been obscure.

It's clear that the elves still retained free will, but that the Valar didn't understand it, or else they wouldn't have tried to remove it. It also seems that the elves were made to pay for it in spades throughout the ages that followed.
But they never tried to remove the Elves' free will, IMO, they just tried to persuade - IOW, the Valar didn't hog-tie the elves and cart them over to Valinor. Many elves refused the summons out of their own free-will choice, and the Valar let them stay. And I think that how they paid for it throughout the ages had nothing to do with the Valar, it was the consequences of their individual, daily free-will choices.

And somewhere, I can't remember where, it says that those that went to Valinor were greater than those that didn't, and that was because of their contact with the Valar; so that is definitely a good that was gained.

[Attalus]

I will note that JRRT used "doom" both to mean "disaster" and "destiny". Remember in Faramir's dream, the Voice says that "Doom is near at hand." Boromir reads it as "disaster" and is reprimanded by Gandalf. "The words were not "the doom of Minas Tirith." I.e., the older, and to me, the far more interesting meaning of the word, "predestined outcome." IMHO, if he had sait, "So, they are doomed," it would have meant that the elves were destined for disaster, that what they were doing would be evil for the elves. But, he said, "It is doomed," akin to Gandalf's "That is the doom we must deem." That seemed to me to mean that "it was inevitable."

Oh, and I will be a member of any party that gets together to watch Tulkas put a can of whup-ass on Melkor. :D

Good discussion.

[Maedhros]

aaa

[Earniel]

Good observation Eärniel The Moriquendi were happier in Middle-Earth, weren't they? Thank you Artanis. :) They did seem to be a lot happier. But going further on the thought that the Elves belonged in Middle-earth, I stumbled on something else for which of yet I don't have any explanation: the fading.

If the Elves truly belonged in Middle-earth and not in Valinor, why did they fade then? Even the moriquendi would in time fade and become 'present and yet remote' to Men. (or so I remember, do correct me when I'm wrong) It doesn't seem logical. Or is it perhaps an after-effect from the original mistake of bringing the Elves to Valinor? So that by bringing them to Valinor they could never truly belong to Middle-earth anymore, even when they did return there? Any ideas on the connection?
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."? Doomed is a word of many meanings. It is difficult to see in what meaning Mandos used it. Perhaps that's why it puzzled the others so much that they didn't understand it when he said it. In any case, personally, I prefer RÃ*an's 'So be it'-interpretation.

The answer goes back to the issue of free will. Have the valar robbed them of it, or did they never have it in the first place? Maybe that's what the Valar couldn't get their heads around: they were afraid of free will. I don't think the Valar were afraid of free will, they had much of it themselves. I think that the Elves did have free will in Valinor, but under a certain set of rules, much like in land and under any government.

I don't think the Valar actually intended to rob the Elves of free will, but saw them more as children who are unfit to choose certain things for themselves. In the beginning the Elves may indeed have been much like that, after all they learned much in Valinor. I guess the Valar (much as many parents) just didn't understand the Elves enough to know that at one point they would be grown and want to decide things for their own, for good or for bad. In such a situation the rules of the Valar may have seemed more and more restrictive even if this was not the intention of the Valar.

[Dunadan]

All good stuff.

Does anyone else agree that this chapter had Tolkien throwing in a lot more ambiguities in general? Is that a deliberate act to represent how the world was getting more complicated and uncertain?

cheers

d.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
If the Elves truly belonged in Middle-earth and not in Valinor, why did they fade then?They were meant to fade, to make way for the dominion of Men. Letter #131:The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed.
Perhaps the Elves going to Valinor was not in the original 'plan'. But when it happened, it was turned to something good. The Noldor returned, and met the Edain, and were more noble and gifted teachers than they otherwise would have been.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Does anyone else agree that this chapter had Tolkien throwing in a lot more ambiguities in general?Perhaps it was CRT who didn't get things straight all the time. The mythology was rewritten several times. Scholars in the HoME-series would know more ... :)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think that only the Elves who remained in M-E faded. Though, in Morgoth's Ring, it is written that All Elves, even of Aman, will become spirits, it was I belive, crossed out. In early versions, (BoLT) there were faded Elves all over the place, only visible to some human people.

[Artanis]

There's another thing that bugs me: The Valar didn't make war against Sauron until the Elves had awoke, because they didn't know where the Elves would come, and they were afraid of damaging the land too much. But when they finally did go to war, they seemed to have had no such concern for the Followers, Men, and their place of awakening. :mad:

Any thoughts?

[Sister Golden Hair]

But what if they had done nothing at all?

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
But what if they had done nothing at all?

well then Melkor would of come among them and seduced them easily. Easily because how can you know what evil is till you have met good?

Of course this leads to bigger issues going back to a previous post about bthe origional plan. Was it in the plan that melkor would be evil was it in the origional plan for the valar to remove from middle earth?

here is not the time or place to do that really but the point is the main problem was the valar had removed to valinor so to teach the elves they had to bring them there.

At the time before the elves came i believe that the valar were more concerned with making rather than healing. was it yavanna that returned occasionally to undo some of the hurt of melkor?

IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
well then Melkor would of come among them and seduced them easily. Easily because how can you know what evil is till you have met good?

Of course this leads to bigger issues going back to a previous post about bthe origional plan. Was it in the plan that melkor would be evil was it in the origional plan for the valar to remove from middle earth?

here is not the time or place to do that really but the point is the main problem was the valar had removed to valinor so to teach the elves they had to bring them there.

At the time before the elves came i believe that the valar were more concerned with making rather than healing. was it yavanna that returned occasionally to undo some of the hurt of melkor?

IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided. I don't think that the Valar were to blame for Morgoth's marring of the world. At the time it says there was little they could do, or they didn't know that he was at work again.

From the published Silmarillion:

Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding place. But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared; and he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps. In the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.

Thus ended the Spring of Arda. The dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and they had no abiding place upon the face of the Earth. Therefore they departed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, the westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea, that is called by the Elves Ekkaia, encircling the Kingdom of Arda. How wide is that sea none know but the Valar; and beyond it are the Walls of the Night. But the east shores of Aman were the uttermost end of Belegaer, the Great Sea at the West; and since Melkor was returned to Middle-earth and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth. And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height upon whose summit Manwë set his throne. Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and ElerrÃ*na Crowned with Stars, and many names beside; but the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos. From their halls upon Taniquetil Manwë and Varda could look out across the Earth even into the furthest East.

[Artanis]

Sister Golden Hair
But what if they had done nothing at all?The Valar were right in making war against Melkor, but they should have done so before. I just find it strange that they were concerned about destroying the place of awakening for the Elves, but not for Men.
Sween
IMHO i think the valar were right to bring the elves to valinor for the simple reasons melkor would still escaped from them and then returned to torment the elves. Plus if they had handled Feanor a bit better a lot of suffering could of been avoided.But if all Elves had departed to Valinor, there would have been none left to meet Men in Middle-Earth. That would have been sad. And if Melkor should escape from the Valar, who should protect Men against him, if both Valar and Elves were in Aman?

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Valar were right in making war against Melkor, but they should have done so before. I just find it strange that they were concerned about destroying the place of awakening for the Elves, but not for Men. Well, although they knew of the coming of the Second Born, I think the Elves being first and knowing that they could awake at any time after the world was fashioned was a more pressing concern to them. It was just more immediate. They knew that Men would not be along for a while yet.

[Ruinel]

Artanis,
I don't know where in the book it states that the Elves were afraid of the water. So, I can not answer your question pertaining to that.

Melkor made the Orcs, the Dragons, and the Balrogs. Orcs were bred from the Elves that fled Orome when he came to lead them from the east across Arda to Valinor. (They had been made afraid by Melkor/Morgoth's lies about the Valar.) Melkor/Morgoth could not make anything beautiful, so he made things deliberately fell to mock the making of the Children of Iluvitar.

I do not remember what Dragons and Balrogs were made from.

:)

[Artanis]

Hello Ruinel, and welcome! :)

The Balrogs were Maiar, angelic spirits created by Eru himself. I'm not sure what the Dragons were, I suppose they could have been Maiar as well.

[Ruinel]

Artanis,
Where did you read that balrogs were Maiar? (curious):confused:

[Artanis]

From the Silmarillion, Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor:
But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.And from the Silmarillion, Valaquenta: For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

[Ruinel]

Wow! I had forgotten all about that (the Maiar that were corrupted by Melkor)! Thanks for reminding me.

:cool:

[azalea]

Artanis, thanks for that quote from Letters about the fading. I have seen fading discussed before, but for some reason, it clicked w/ me this time. So I can now see the ULTIMATE purpose of taking the elves to Valinor. It was to educate them, so that their knowledge could then pass on to men. This seems like a logical divine plan, but then it led me to another question: why not skip elves and just have men? That way, the learning wouldn't be secondhand. Since men were to have the ultimate dominion (as evidenced by the fading), why have the elves awaken at all? (Not that I don't like elves, but I just wonder what the speculation is on this).

[Rían]

I think that the elves were a beautiful and worthwhile creation in themselves, and well worth making from that angle alone. I guess one of their purposes was to teach men, but they had many others. And maybe since they are closer in power to men (unlike the Ainur), then men could feel more akin to them and learn better from them.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by azalea
This seems like a logical divine plan, but then it led me to another question: why not skip elves and just have men? That way, the learning wouldn't be secondhand. Since men were to have the ultimate dominion (as evidenced by the fading), why have the elves awaken at all? (Not that I don't like elves, but I just wonder what the speculation is on this).

And deny the presence of Elves to Men? A bit cruel perhaps. Elves would not only have been there to teach Men, but perhaps also to be an example to them. Quite possibly Elves were to be intermediares between Valar and Men. Elves had skills that Men did not possess and might not be able to possess. Granted, the Elves learned nearly much from the Valar but I doubt that Men, even when tutored by the Valar could reach the level of magic and arts that the Elves possessed. Elves were the 'big sisters and brothers' to Men. Someone Men could look up to, go to for councel or comfort, someone who could fill them with wonder by the tales they had to tell, someone to inspire them to greater things, ect....

Elves also had a worth of their own. Saying that Elves were really not needed is like saying: "I already have one child that shall be the heir of all my possessions, I don't need another child." What kind of father would Ilúvater be if he reasoned like that. ;)

[azalea]

Thanks for both of your answers. They certainly make sense, and I of course am glad that there were elves. But I could still see a world where men were made with some of the same traits elves had, and so eliminating the need for them. I guess their literary purpose is to serve as "perfect humans," as others have mentioned (somewhere). They also add depth, richness, etc. to the mythology. But it is sad that they were only temporary residents of ME, and that's what led me to that question. Why create something so wonderful just to take them away? I guess having men and elves co-exist when "the time of man" had come would lead to a lot of strife. It's still sad, though.

[Artanis]

One of the chief purposes of the Elves was to fight Melkor, I think. And another was to be the living memory of the Elder days in Middle-Earth.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
And another was to be the living memory of the Elder days in Middle-Earth.

That's a nice thought. :) And what better living memories are there than those that live for the duration of the world? It's very fitting.

But somehow it does seem that Elves got the bad side of the bargain. Humans seem to get the better part. But then again, don't parents usually tend to favour the youngest child? (I wonder what comments I will get from the mothers here on that one. ;))

[markedel]

The problem with analyzing this is that elves have an essential literary purpose-without them there is no mythos. The purpose of Tolkien's myth cycle is to create something coherant, ancient and truly mythlike. This effect is heightened if the stories are distanced by the use of superhuman creatures (as elves are) who eventually meet men, because it creates a further distance between us and the story. The Silmarillion is not simply the tale of a far off time, it is the chronicle of the Eldar, not mortals, and we are lucky to have a hold of it.

[Attalus]

Ah, the long time that we waited for the Sil to be published. I still remember how excited I was.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Attalus
Ah, the long time that we waited for the Sil to be published. I still remember how excited I was.

Hey!! You're from Texas too?! (Eryn Vorn is just outside of Houston. Or, at least it is now.)

[FrodoFriend]

*jumps into conversation*


I don't think the Elves were created for a "purpose" like teaching Men or fighting Melkor or anything. If that were true, we would also have to assign a purpose to Men and to all of Arda. For what purpose did Eru create the world?

IMO, existence has no purpose except to exist, to be, to bring forth beauty and happiness and other yummy things. I think Eru made the Elves "just because" - so that there would be something, and a very beautiful and wondrous thing it turned out to be. The same with Valar, Men, and the rest of the world. The question of why the Elves had to fade, however, remains.

There are some indications in quotes such as:

ere the Earth's goodness from the Elves they drew

(in reference to Men)

- that the Earth could not support more than one of the races. Which would explain why we only have Men today, although it doesn't explain why Eru would have created it like that in the first place. But who knows the mind of a God? :)

If we accept this as an explanation for the fading, one could say that Eru gave the Elves their time in Middle Earth, to be taken over by Men, so each has their turn. Elves and Men co-existed so that the Elder people could teach the Younger, but the ratio of strength was never equal - first the Elves were mightier, but the scales slowly tipped toward Men until Elves faded altogether.

So will Men fade someday? Will a new race appear to be taught, growing stronger and multiplying until they rule Arda and Men have disappeared?


P.S. Ruilen! You live in Eryn Vorn too? Which tree? :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
I don't think the Elves were created for a "purpose" like teaching Men or fighting Melkor or anything. If that were true, we would also have to assign a purpose to Men and to all of Arda. For what purpose did Eru create the worldMy opinion on this is: Eru created Men and Elves as a response to the discord of Melkor in the Music of the Ainur. Men were given the power to heal Arda from the marring of Melkor, that was their purpose.

When the music of the Ainur had ceased, Eru showed forth a vision of hte music they had just made, and the world was created because the Ainur desired what they saw in the vision to be real.

Nice jump, FrodoFriend. :)

[FrodoFriend]

Just trying to make a splash. :)

Is there a quote to back up the thing about Eru creating the Children in response to Melkor? So in part we owe our existence to the Great Enemy . . . although I don't think Men have been doing that great of a job of healing Arda . . .

Wait. Have I been talking as if I believe the Sil to be literal fact again? :D

[Rían]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Wait. Have I been talking as if I believe the Sil to be literal fact again? :D

I know - isn't that amazing how easy it is to slip into that mode? :D

IIRC, the theme of the elves was before the discord, and the theme of men was after the discord, but I'm fuzzy on it - I'll try to check. Also, I know near the end of his life, JRRT changed things around a bit in regard to the themes and other things (in Morgoth's Ring - where he experimented with the 'correct astronomy' model, which included the sun and moon BEFORE the two trees, etc.) I'll see what I can dig up, or does anyone else have refs?

[markedel]

Morgoth's ring I know, has bits on the "scientific mythology" specifically the astronomy, but it also has a bit on orcs and men, which may be a useful reference.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Is there a quote to back up the thing about Eru creating the Children in response to Melkor? I don't think it says directly so anywhere, but that's how I read the Ainulindalë. It does say that the Children of Ilúvatar came with the third theme of the music, and Melkor's discord was there from the first theme. And then there is the Athrabeth, where the nature and gifts of Men is discussed, and where Finrod says this:.This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Visions of the World!This is of course Finrod's opinion and hope, but it's a nice belief and not unlikely.

[FrodoFriend]

Hmmm . . . so how much of this did the Valar know? Mandos apparently knew everything (or thought he did), and Manwe probably had a good idea, but what about the others? If they knew that they had to teach Elves to teach Men to heal the world, then it wouldn't have been selfishness to take the Elves away from Middle Earth to Valinor.

We were talking about why Elves were needed - for that matter, why were Men? Elves could easily have been created to heal Arda themselves, and you could dispense with the whole Younger People deal.

And where do the Ents come in? Were they simply created as tree shepherds, and have no larger role?

[Lizra]

Ahem........I'd like to think the Valar did not have to "teach" every little thing to the elves, and the elves did not have to "teach" men how to live their lives either. I like to think that Eru made his children (elves and men) with gifts of their own (intelligence, appreciation of beauty, work ethic, desire to be loved, survival instinct, etc). These qualities could help "heal" Arda. Though the Valar sang the music, the third theme's two musics were "utterly at variance". I struggle to decide if the theme that was loud and vain, endlessly repeated with little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes which seemed to drown the other music by the violence of it's own voice to be the music of "the children" (Both elves and men) , or of men only. (it sounds like men to me! :D ) The triumphant notes (of this music) were taken "by the other" {WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!!! are "the other" the valar taking from the children, or the elves taking from the men? :confused:} and woven into it's own solomn pattern. Anyway, is the third theme just the music of elves and men, or of Valor and "Elves and Men", together as children?

[Artanis]

Yes, I don't think Men needed to be teached how to heal Arda, it was inherent in them, because their spirits are not bound to the world like the spirits of the Elves. It was part of the gift of death from Ilúvatar, methinks.

Lizra, great way of interpreting the Music, which part was the Elves' theme and which part was Men? I've never thought of it that way. I would say the 'soft and sweet' was of the Elves, and the 'load and vain' and 'endlessly repeated' was of Men. 'The triumphant notes' I think were taken from the Elves' theme and wowen into Men's, and it could be pointing at the Elvish blood that were inserted into the race of Men by the union of Tour and Idril, Beren and Lúthien, and Aragorn and Arwen.

[Rían]

Wow, I guess we have some big differences of opinions here. I just assumed it was like this: Ilúvatar declares this incredibly beautiful theme to the Ainur ("and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur...")
The voices of the Ainur began to "fashion the theme";
Melkor starts the first discord in the music ("it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and gloroy of the part assigned to himself.")
Ilúvatar starts a new and powerful theme in response to Melkor's discordant theme;
Melkor's theme also gets stronger;
Ilúvatar starts the third theme - unlike the others, starting soft, but unquenchable, and taking power and profundity
At this point, there were "two musics progressing at one time" that were "utterly at variance". One was "deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came." The other was the loud and vain and endlessly repeating one.

I always thought the beautiful one was all of the music that came from Ilúvatar - the original one, plus the 2 in response to Melkor, and all 3 blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor.

[Lizra]

Could be! That sounds good! Do the starts and stops have anything to do with the ages, or is really all about Melkor? (blea!)

(In the third theme) The "deep, wide and beautiful" music's beauty chiefly came from an immeasurable sorrow! (that's no fun! :eek: how does beauty come from sorrow! It doesn't for me. :( ) The loud violent music tried to drown the other. Now , I am confused again...."And it (violent music) essayed to drown the other (sad, beautiful) music by the violence of it's voice, but it seemed that it's most triumphant notes were taken by the other (sad beautiful) and woven into it's own solemn pattern."

So did Iluvatar somehow take the violent music's (Melkor's) best notes and put them in the beautiful music, just to show Melkor that "no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me", and also to show Melkor that he was just an instrument, not a maker?

It says the children (elves and men) came with the third theme, but none of the Ainur had a part in their making. What does this mean if the Ainur made the music? I guess I'm nit picking because it says (right after the "stolen" line given to Galadriel in FoTR movie!) "Yet some things there are that they (Ainiur) cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; ..... anyway, the themes having only to do with good and bad, not the children makes good sense Rian. :) ( evil has too big of a role in this tale, if you ask me! :( )

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I always thought the beautiful one was all of the music that came from Ilúvatar - the original one, plus the 2 in response to Melkor, and all 3 blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor. Ooops, RÃ*an, I totally forgot Melkor's 'contribution' to the music, he was there too of course. Your theory makes more sense than mine.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Lizra
(In the third theme) The "deep, wide and beautiful" music's beauty chiefly came from an immeasurable sorrow! (that's no fun! :eek: how does beauty come from sorrow! It doesn't for me. :( )

I think because it's when faced with strong opposition and disaster that one can show his true strength. Think of Húrin, his was a tale of much sorrow but through it he became one of the most renowned warrior. He showed extraordinary resilience against Melkor. One might never have known what he had in him until he was tried. The same reasoning goes for the tale of Túrin and Nienor. It is a very sorrowful story but it's a very wel-liked tale too.

[Rían]

Artanis - I'm glad that made sense to you :)

Lizra - I think Eärniel gives a great example about beauty in sorrow, esp. with Húrin - his faithfulness in the face of torment is something that is beautiful; does that make sense? I think that sorrow does NOT automatically bring beauty; but it's a person's RESPONSES to sorrow that may be beautiful (or not...). Don't you think that Frodo's journey - his faithfulness, steadfastness, determination - is beautiful, although surrounded by great sorrow? Bilbo's story is cute and fun - Frodo's is magnificent and beautiful, and the beauty was brought out through the sorrow, and the beauty triumphed over the sorrow. Although Frodo was not left unscarred, still, the scars were beautiful in a sense, because of how he got them. Does that make sense?

In a this-world example :), I was in the hospital for a month with pregnancy difficulties with child #2, and our friends and family did so many beautiful things in how they supported and helped and encouraged us - meals, phone calls, cards, taking care of our other son - love in action, which was beautiful.

[Lizra]

Yes, I understand how you can see "some" beauty in sorrow, (if you are forced to, by unfortunate circumstance) but I prefer regular, plain and simple beauty myself. I feel the "beauty in sorrow" is more of a second generation type thing, looking for the silver lining type of beauty . To have the "main theme" of the last melody come "cheifly from an immeasurable sorrow" is frankly, "over the top" for me! (It also makes me angry! ;) ) As a casual observer, I want to say Eru erred in giving Melkor so much. (IMO) It does not make me happy! Of course it makes for an unbeleivably moving story, but I am beginning to understand why I have often felt that The Hobbit was my favorite story! :D I have had too much of that "sorrowful beauty" in my life, and I don't like it!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, I understand how you can see "some" beauty in sorrow, (if you are forced to, by unfortunate circumstance) but I prefer regular, plain and simple beauty myself. I feel the "beauty in sorrow" is more of a second generation type thing, looking for the silver lining type of beauty . To have the "main theme" of the last melody come "cheifly from an immeasurable sorrow" is frankly, "over the top" for me! (It also makes me angry! ;) ) As a casual observer, I want to say Eru erred in giving Melkor so much. (IMO) It does not make me happy! Of course it makes for an unbeleivably moving story, but I am beginning to understand why I have often felt that The Hobbit was my favorite story! :D I have had too much of that "sorrowful beauty" in my life, and I don't like it!

If you've ever listened to music that sounds sorrowful, you could understand that there is beauty in the sound of it. An emotional outpouring. I've experienced sorrow (profoundly) in my days (people die, people leave, rejection, unfulfilled dreams, etc.), we all either have or will experience all of these in our lives. Yet, I can still say what I've said. It doesn't make me depressed, just experienced. In the tale, it is the music created by the Ainur that moves the listener. The music has that power.

It is funny that The Hobbit was your favorite. It was my least favorite of the stories.

[Lizra]

The Hobbit didn't make me so sad! :)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lizra
The Hobbit didn't make me so sad! :)

Point taken.

The LotR tales, the Sil, etc. bring you up and down. Like a roller coaster, just like life. But in the end, evil is conquered and vanquished (unlike life), and everyone comes together and fights for the common good.

[Earniel]

Still on my re-read of the Silmarillion, although I be taking a short break for some travelling.

This re-read I was struck by the fact that though the Valar after long debating decided to bring the Elves over, they really go badly about it.

First there's the bit where they learn the Firstborn will come when Varda's new batch of stars are up and when that happens they don't even post a look-out and only discover the Elves by mere chance? What's up with that? They (and the Elves) were so lucky Melkor didn't come down on the Quendi harder when he became aware of their presence first. I wonder why that is, though? He could have had the entire Elven race under lock and key before the Valar even realised. Why didn't he? Why only the few lies and monsters to keep them penned at CuÃ*vienen? He had the strenght, opportunity and motive but oddly not the drive.

And the other huge mistake is that only Oromë is accompanying/leading them and each time his attention is elsewhere the Elves's host are haemoraghing participants to pretty spots of Middle-earth continually. What was keeping the other Valar waiting in Aman, surely they could have sent more representatives and guides? They'd have to notice they misplaced Teleri all over the place.

You'd think the Valar would a clue a) this plan wasn't working efficiently at all and b) the Elves really liked Middle-earth and no amount of monsters roaming in the shadows could keep them from staying. Because while at one hand you do get the impression that Melkor's monsters are everywhere and kept the Elves at CuÃ*vienen, but on the other they seem oddly absent when different Elven groups break off and strike out on their own.

Or did those Elves already possess more self-defence methods, maybe learned from Oromë? If he was smart he'd have taught them about hunting gears and weapons necessary for the march indeed.