Which Elves searched for Elwe?

[afro-elf]

The Nandor? or The Sindar?

[Arien the Maia]

I think it was the sindar...the nador were under the leadership of Lenwe weren't they?

[Miranda]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I think it was the sindar...the nador were under the leadership of Lenwe weren't they?

I think so but I don't have the book to hand. I think it was the sindar though. This is going to bug me all day now!

[Artanis]

IIRC, the Nandor forsook the great march east of the river Anduin, and stayed there for a long time, while Elwe led his host into Beleriand. It was Elwe's folk that sought for him.

[afro-elf]

Tak!

[Artanis]

Oooh very nice afro-elf :) 'Tak' is Danish though, and 'Takk' is Norwegian.

[Wayfarer]

The nandor had not yet become a distinct people group at this time, I believe. Nor had the sindar. It was the third kindred that searched for him-they were made up of what would one day be the nandor, the sindar, the laiquendai, and the teleri. Avari too, but they had already split off.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The nandor had not yet become a distinct people group at this time, I believe. Nor had the sindar. It was the third kindred that searched for him-they were made up of what would one day be the nandor, the sindar, the laiquendai, and the teleri. Avari too, but they had already split off. Originally though, they were all Telerin, right?

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Nador were still on the far side of two moutains ranges at that time, The Blue and The Misty. It was his relative, retainers and friends among the Teleri (this group LATER got the name Sindar) who searched for him.

[Maedhros]

Which Elves searched for Elwe?
The dumb ones. If you think about it, he was not the best king. So, it would have not been a bad thing is he had remain lost.

[Sister Golden Hair]

OMG, I love that reply.

How I wish Nolendil was here to read this.

[Artanis]

SGH, do you love Finrod as much as you hate Thingol? :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
SGH, do you love Finrod as much as you hate Thingol? :p Sure, even more.:D

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sure, even more.:D

Well, I sure knew that! :D But tell me, do you think Melian was stupid to love Thingol? Duped? Or what? She was a Maia after all...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oooh very nice afro-elf :) 'Tak' is Danish though, and 'Takk' is Norwegian.

And 'tak' is also 'branch' in Dutch which is why you had me wondering about that peculiar answer for a while. :p

The dumb ones. If you think about it, he was not the best king. So, it would have not been a bad thing is he had remain lost.

You're really not very fond on Thingol, aren't you? :)

[Maedhros]

You're really not very fond on Thingol, aren't you?
He didn't have the courtesy of speaking with the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor, so No.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54
Well, I sure knew that! :D But tell me, do you think Melian was stupid to love Thingol? Duped? Or what? She was a Maia after all... Yeah, she was stupid Kirinki, but love is blind. What can I say?:D

[afro-elf]

He didn't have the courtesy of speaking with the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor, so No.

Tis' surely not your only reason with the Kinslaying and all.

( Please note I am not a big Thingol fan myself )

[Maedhros]

Tis' surely not your only reason with the Kinslaying and all.
Thingol didn't know about it at that time.
( Please note I am not a big Thingol fan myself )
Who in their right mind would?:eek:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmm, maybe because he murdered his kindred... :rolleyes:

[Maedhros]

Hmm, maybe because he murdered his kindred...
That would be an excelent point, if not for the fact that he didn't know it at that time.:eek:
From the Published Silmarillion:Of the Return of the Noldor
Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of his brother Finrod, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force; but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor and the oath of Fëanor.
I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.

[Earniel]

He didn't have the courtesy of speaking with the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor, so No.

Well, if the first son of the first prince of the Noldor was a murderer of family, I certainly would know what I'd do.

*notices how Maedhros posted that Thingol didn't know that then.*

Mmmm... I see. Bummer. Well, Maedhros was at that time no longer in charge of the Noldor, Fingolfin was and Thingol didn't even wanted to speak to him either....

... which I suppose really shows that Thingol had no manners. And that for a king. Shame on him. :rolleyes:

[Maedhros]

Mmmm... I see. Bummer. Well, Maedhros was at that time no longer in charge of the Noldor, Fingolfin was and Thingol didn't even wanted to speak to him either....
At that time, there was no one in charge of all the Ñoldor, we were ruled by factions and after the council of Hithlum, it was only that Fingolfin was made the High King of the Ñoldor. Which, in my estimation is only a ceremonial title.
... which I suppose really shows that Thingol had no manners. And that for a king. Shame on him.
And the thinking ability of a goat. :D

[Maedhros]

Well, if the first son of the first prince of the Noldor was a murderer of family, I certainly would know what I'd do.
It is interesting now if you look at it. Finarfin was married to a Telerin maid, and his son were related to them and after the Kinslaying in Alqualondë, they still followed the mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar to the Wastes of Araman. It was only after the Doom of Mandos that Finarfin returned to Valinorë, but Finrod and company remained.
So, even though the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor was a murder of his family, they were even in good terms with him, why would Thingol be otherwise.:eek:
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor
It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan, to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin
I think those of the house of Finarfin had the following thought. The mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar and his hosts slayed a bunch of Teleri, but they were just Teleri destined to live in the shores forever without doing nothing really. At least they had a battle and they had to do something for a change. They die and go to the Halls of Mandos and they can be reborn again, so if you think about it, is no big deal.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Hmm, maybe because he murdered his kindred... :rolleyes: Njet, this had nothing to do with the kinslaying. Thingol felt his lordship threatened by these mighty Elf Lords arriving out of the West. That's why he was acting the way he did.
Originally posted by Maedhros
I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.In plural? :eek: :D

[Falagar]

I would choose pretty europeans girls instead.
...or is it possesive ;)

[Artanis]

Nevermind.

[Earniel]

I would choose pretty europeans girls instead. Men! :rolleyes:

[Falagar]

And after having seen all those "I luuuve Orlando Bloooom"-threads everywhere, I say: Women ;)

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I think those of the house of Finarfin had the following thought. The mightiest of the Children of Ilúvatar and his hosts slayed a bunch of Teleri, but they were just Teleri destined to live in the shores forever without doing nothing really. At least they had a battle and they had to do something for a change. They die and go to the Halls of Mandos and they can be reborn again, so if you think about it, is no big deal.

I wonder if they thought at all? Fëanor used every trick in the book of demagog to hypnotize the Noldor. I think the were indeed, like Tolkien wrote, fleeing. From bondage, from ruin... On top of that fear, they had the terrible incentive to fulfil the oath of Fëanor or else his mighty clan would turn against anyone.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Falagar
And after having seen all those "I luuuve Orlando Bloooom"-threads everywhere, I say: Women ;)

At least most women are content with just ONE guy. ;)

Secondly, I distance myself from any Orlando Bloooooomthreads as you so eloquently put it.

[Maedhros]

I wonder if they thought at all? Fëanor used every trick in the book of demagog to hypnotize the Noldor. I think the were indeed, like Tolkien wrote, fleeing. From bondage, from ruin... On top of that fear, they had the terrible incentive to fulfil the oath of Fëanor or else his mighty clan would turn against anyone.
No one forced them to go, they could have done a Finarfin and crawl back to the cages of the Valar.
In plural?
I thought in singular, but plural is not bad.:D

[Sister Golden Hair]

No one forced them to go, they could have done a Finarfin and crawl back to the cages of the Valar. Everybody acts as if Finarfin was just some coward that turned back. He had every intention of following Fingolfin to Middle-earth until the Kinslaying. His wife was a Telerin, so it was very devistating I think for him to see his kin killing his wifes kin. UT says that he often sought peace among the Teleri. I don't think he was a coward. I think he was devistated and perhaps ashamed of his people.

[Maedhros]

Everybody acts as if Finarfin was just some coward that turned back. He had every intention of following Fingolfin to Middle-earth until the Kinslaying. His wife was a Telerin, so it was very devistating I think for him to see his kin killing his wifes kin. UT says that he often sought peace among the Teleri. I don't think he was a coward. I think he was devistated and perhaps ashamed of his people.
The funny thing is that the Kinslaying ocurred in Alqualondë, and our friend Finarfin turned back after the Doom of Mandos in the Wastes of Araman which is north of that. (Is a long walk btw). So the question is: If the Kinslaying was so wrong, why didn't Finarfin turned back then, why did he have to wait for Mandos to appear? Isn't he his own elf? :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the Silmarillion. The Flight of the Noldor. Chapter 9.

But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë I think he all ready felt very bitter, but continued for his children, but when the Doom of Mandos was spoke, that was the last straw. If anyone was fearful, it was those that went forward. Tolkien says him self that they feared to return and face the Valar.

[Maedhros]

So they kill his relatives and that's ok. The question is why wait?
Why didn't he retraced when his wife's relatives were being killed? He apparently doesn't see the killing of Teleri a bad thing, not as bad as to turn back from it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The question is why wait? Like I said, I think he continued for his children, but I think that once the Doom was spoken, it was more than he could bear on top of the kinslaying, and that's what made up his mind.

[Maedhros]

But the question is then, why would a noble and Elf like Finrod would follow a quest after the slaying of his mother's relatives? And he was ok with that to the point that he had a relationship with the Kinslayers in friendly terms.:eek:
Do the Ñoldor see their teleri family part of the tree as lesser elves?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
But the question is then, why would a noble and Elf like Finrod would follow a quest after the slaying of his mother's relatives? And he was ok with that to the point that he had a relationship with the Kinslayers in friendly terms.:eek:
Do the Ñoldor see their teleri family part of the tree as lesser elves? I don't think that's the case at all. Tolkien says that the sons of Finarafin and Fingolfin were very close, almost as though they were all brothers. I think the children of Finarfin and Fingolfin were young and they had the high spirit of the Noldor, and were eager for the adventure and to see new realms. I don't think Finrod was ok with the slaying of his mothers kin, but I think he understood that Fingolfin and his sons became involved in the kinslaying before they were aware of what was going on. I don't think the Noldor see the Teleri as lesser Elves, but different from the Noldor.

[afro-elf]

I do not have the books before me but I think that SGH brought but something I had forgotten. That the Finarfin ( perhaps) did not know that the Feanoreans had started the battle and just rushed in to stand by their kin.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I do not have the books before me but I think that SGH brought but something I had forgotten. That the Finarfin ( perhaps) did not know that the Feanoreans had started the battle and just rushed in to stand by their kin. In the Sil it says that when Fingolfin and Fingon came up, the battle was all ready underway, and them thinking that the Teleri were trying to hender the Noldor from their road, joined in before they knew what was happening.

None of the children of Finarfin that I know of participated in the kinslaying. UT does say that Galadriel bravely defended her mother's kin.

[Maedhros]

I don't think that's the case at all. Tolkien says that the sons of Finarafin and Fingolfin were very close, almost as though they were all brothers. I think the children of Finarfin and Fingolfin were young and they had the high spirit of the Noldor, and were eager for the adventure and to see new realms. I don't think Finrod was ok with the slaying of his mothers kin, but I think he understood that Fingolfin and his sons became involved in the kinslaying before they were aware of what was going on.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
Thrice the people of Fëanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar.
From this quote, I think that it's only fair to assume that Fingon was actually involved in the battle and not necessarily his father Fingolfin nor his brothers.
The funny thing is that for the "exemplary" Finrod, chose to ignore his father, something that the first prince of the Ñoldor would never do.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?
Certainly not Finrod.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

From this quote, I think that it's only fair to assume that Fingon was actually involved in the battle and not necessarily his father Fingolfin nor his brothers.
The funny thing is that for the "exemplary" Finrod, chose to ignore his father, something that the first prince of the Ñoldor would never do.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

Certainly not Finrod. Give me a break. Finrod had a stable home and two parents that he freely shared with his brothers and sister without all the jealousy. Not his fault if he wasn't a big daddy's boy. Feanor was a spoiled brat. Had it not been for his jealousy of Finwe's marriage to Indis and his half-brothers, he would not have stayed secluded from his family like the cry baby that he was, then the Silmarils wouldn't have been made and stolen and the exile wouldn't have happened, nor the Kinslaying, and everyone would have been happy together in Valinor and there would be no story. So there. Feanor could never have hoped to be the good guy that Finrod was.:p

[Maedhros]

It's not my fault that the author explicitly states that Fëanor loved his father more than any other Children of Ilúvatar ever would.
Finrod father was making a statement by returning back to Valinor, but did Finrod had the apreciation for his father that Fëanor did? Nooperz. Finrod thought, what is the killing of a few Teleri, or the Doom of Mandos, I want to go regardless of my father wanting us to stay behind. It's not like I care that much what he thinks.:eek:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's not my fault that the author explicitly states that Fëanor loved his father more than any other Children of Ilúvatar ever would.
Finrod father was making a statement by returning back to Valinor, but did Finrod had the apreciation for his father that Fëanor did? Nooperz. Finrod thought, what is the killing of a few Teleri, or the Doom of Mandos, I want to go regardless of my father wanting us to stay behind. It's not like I care that much what he thinks.:eek: Yep, Feanor loved his father more than any others did. Finwe had to be mommy and daddy to him, so he was tied to his apron strings. No wonder the poor kid was a mental case, besides, why does it matter whether Finrod loved Finarfin as much as Feanor loved Finwe? Feanor killed more people and caused more trouble and was actually the cause of all the greifs of the Noldor. Because Finrod didn't return to Valinor, you say he didn't love his father so much. If he had returned to Valinor with him, you would say he was a wuss like his Father. So, nomatter what he did, it wasn't right, but Feanor was such a great guy. PALEASE!

[Maedhros]

Because Finrod didn't return to Valinor, you say he didn't love his father so much. If he had returned to Valinor with him, you would say he was a wuss like his Father. So, nomatter what he did, it wasn't right, but Fëanor was such a great guy. PALEASE!
For the record, I haven't said that Finrod was a wuss. You did. Remember the really bad thing about FF is the fact that he is in some way related to Thingol.
:eek:

[Earniel]

And so was Luthien Tinuviel and even more so. Are you going to hold that against her too? :rolleyes:

[Maedhros]

And so was Luthien Tinuviel and even more so. Are you going to hold that against her too?
I could but I make exceptions for pretty girls. ;)

[Falagar]

No wonder the poor kid was a mental case, besides, why does it matter whether Finrod loved Finarfin as much as Feanor loved Finwe? Feanor killed more people and caused more trouble and was actually the cause of all the greifs of the Noldor. Because Finrod didn't return to Valinor, you say he didn't love his father so much. If he had returned to Valinor with him, you would say he was a wuss like his Father. So, nomatter what he did, it wasn't right, but Feanor was such a great guy. PALEASE!
You're just angry because Fëanor loved his father the most! :p ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know what I think? Feanor loved the Silmarils the most.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
For the record, I haven't said that Finrod was a wuss. You did. Remember the really bad thing about FF is the fact that he is in some way related to Thingol.
:eek: No you didn't say that Finrod was a wuss. You said that Finarfin crawled back to the cage of the Valar, implying that Finarfin was a coward. Now what would you say Finrod was if he had returned with his father? A loving son like dear Feanor, or a coward that crawled back to the Valar?

I disliked Thingol too, but I don't hold Finrod to blame for being related to him, anymore then Maedhros being related to that trouble maker dad of his.

[Maedhros]

You know what I think? Feanor loved the Silmarils the most.
Not more than his father. As proven by my earlier quote. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know what? We are so off topic. (Bad moderator. smack!) I just had to defend Finrod though. Now, back to Thingol.:rolleyes:

[Ulmo]

heh - this has veered way off topic!

I'm not really sure which search you are asking about.

From The Silmarillion:

Thus Elwë's folk who sought him found him not, and Olwë took the kingship of the Teleri and departed, as is told hereafter. Elwë Singollo came never again across the sea to Valinor so long as he lived, and Melian returned not thither while their realm together lasted; but of her there came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Ilúvatar before Eä. In after days he became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of that land.

The quote above (in the first sentence) answers your question - it was the Teleri. At the point of the search, the Sindar had not split yet. The Nandor had stopped and went down the Anduin, so they would not have still been with Thingol/Olwë's Telerin host by the time that host reached Beleriand. Therefore, the elves looking for Thingol in this instance were a mix of A) those Teleri that remained with him and became known as Sindar, and B) those Teleri that remained with Olwë and were brought across the sea by Ulmo to Aman.

The Nandor may also be an answer you're looking for - they too searched for Thingol. Those of you saying Lenwë led the Nandor down the Anduin might be relying on the Encyclopedia of Arda too much. Check these quotes out, from The Silmarillion :
Then one arose in the host of Olwë, which was ever the hindmost on the road; Lenwë he was called. He forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous people, southwards down the great river, and they passed out of the knowledge of their kin until long years were past. Those were the Nandor; and they became a people apart, unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt most beside falls and running streams. Greater knowledge they had of living things, tree and herb, bird and beast, than all other Elves. In after years Denethor, son of Lenwë, turned again west at last, and led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.
Now as has been told, one Lenwë of the host of Olwë forsook the march of the Eldar at that time when the Teleri were halted by the shores of the Great River upon the borders of the westlands of Middle-earth. Little is known of the wanderings of the Nandor, whom he led away down Anduin: some, it is said, dwelt age-long in the woods of the Vale of the Great River, some came at last to its mouths and there dwelt by the Sea, and yet others passing by Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains, came north again and entered the wilderness of Eriador between Ered Luin and the far Mountains of Mist. Now these were a woodland people and had no weapons of steel, and the coming of the fell beasts of the North filled them with great fear, as the Naugrim declared to King Thingol in Menegroth. Therefore Denethor, the son of Lenwë, hearing rumour of the might of Thingol and his majesty, and of the peace of his realm, gathered such host of his scattered people as he could, and led them over the mountains into Beleriand. There they were welcomed by Thingol, as kin long lost that return, and they dwelt in Ossiriand, the Land of Seven Rivers.

Note the bold text: Denethor, Lenwë's son, led a host of the Nandor (most likely a very considerable amount, since it was worth recording in this history of elves) to Beleriand to seek out King Thingol, whom they were kin and walked with in the early years of the journey westward.

[DraztiK]

This is all I have to say about this debate:


http://www.ileet.net/images/arguing.jpg (http://www.ileet.net/images/arguing.jpg)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by DraztiK
This is all I have to say about this debate:


http://www.ileet.net/images/arguing.jpg (http://www.ileet.net/images/arguing.jpg) Then what are you doing here?

[DraztiK]

Trying to win a gold medal!! :D :D

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Which Elves searched for Elwe?
The dumb ones. If you think about it, he was not the best king. So, it would have not been a bad thing is he had remain lost.

Oh c’mon! the guy must have had some redeemable quality, after all, a lot of elves AND Melian did liked him :D

[Maedhros]

Oh c’mon! the guy must have had some redeemable quality, after all, a lot of elves AND Melian did liked him
He was tall.;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
He was tall.;) Yep, too tall, so even that wasn't a good quality, just freaky.:D

[Elvellon]

Nah, he was the first and greatest basketball superstar of the elven championship:

Elu “Magic” Thingol :D

[Ulmo]

Are you calling me freaky?


:cool: