Valar: Gods or Angels?

[barrelrider110]

Before reading the Silmarillion, I read a few essays about the work, and a few of them refer to the Valar as Gods, and some refer to them as angels. Now I know these terms are "dumbed down," but after reading the Sil twice it still puzzles me, so I would like to inquire of the participants of this forum (whom I consider to be very wise):

If you had to categorize the Valar in this manner, how would you describe them?

[Maedhros]

Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.

But that statement is not in the Sil. I agree, particularly that Tolkien himself was a devout Catholic, and I doubt he would have envisioned a world governed by anything other than a monotheistic diety.

However, consider the following:

From Valaquenta, Of the Valar:The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods.
And in Chapter 8, The Darkening of Valinor, Tolkien as narrator refers to the Valar as gods:But now upon the mountain-top dark Ungoliant lay; and she made a ladder of woven ropes and cast it down, and Melkor climbed upon it and came to that high place, and stood beside her, looking down upon the Guarded Realm. Below them lay the woods of Oromë, and westward shimmered the fields and pastures of Yavanna, gold beneath the tall wheat of the gods. Furthermore, the Valar have the ability to create, and behave a lot like the gods of Greek mythology.

Still puzzled.

[celeb-galad]

I would definitely call the Valar "Gods" and the Maiar "Angels".
Ilúvatar falls out of this category - he is the creator of all.

[zimrahil]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.


Agree with this 100%. Ilúvatar is only entity able to create life with independent thought (eg Dwarves), which in my mind makes him God. The Valar however cannot, which to my mind isn't very God like.

Men may have called the Valar Gods, and they may appear to be God like to man, but I don't think that means they actually are ?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by celeb-galad
I would definitely call the Valar "Gods" and the Maiar "Angels".
Ilúvatar falls out of this category - he is the creator of all. Hmmmm. I would call the Valar angels and the maiar lesser Valar. Eru is God, and he made the Valar. Plus the Valar and the Maiar were all considered the Ainur.

[Artanis]

Here is Tolkien's own words, from Letter #131:The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted - well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.Eru = God, the Creator
The Valar = Angelic powers, rulers of the world.

[barrelrider110]

Thank you. :)

[WallRocker]

Originally posted by Artanis
Eru = God, the Creator
The Valar = Angelic powers, rulers of the world.

I'd agree. Also, it would seem to me that Eru is the God of all and the Valar are the "Gods" of ME.

[Captain Stern]

Well in a Christian sense I think they fall into the following categories:

Illuvatar = God
Valar = Arch Angels
Maiar = Angels

But, on the other hand, they do resemble Gods in various myths and legends (the Norse pantheon being a prime example), which I think is what Tolkien was trying to get at when he called the Valar Gods...

[afro-elf]

I stand with Captain stern.

[Wayfarer]

Tolkien called them angelic gods, I believe. Seperate from and less than eru, the one God.

[markedel]

The valar are angels-but made "godlike" in the mythological sense because such beings are "necessary" for such a myth cycle.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Illuvatar = God
Valar = Arch Angels
Maiar = Angels
Question from a non-Christian: What's the difference between an Arch Angel and an Angel?

[barrelrider110]

I'm not a master of bible studies by any stretch, but I can define Archangels as leaders in the hierarchy of angels; they have angels under them and who answer to them. Interestingly, Lucifer (Satan) is generally considered to be a peer to the archangels such as Michael and Gabriel. Is there a ring of allegory here?

[Artanis]

Thanks. :)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
Question from a non-Christian: What's the difference between an Arch Angel and an Angel?

an arch angel is of a higher order than an angel. Lucifer (Satan) is considered the highest/mightiest angel God created. It's interesting that Melkor was modeled after him huh? :) Also Michael the archangel is the one who cast Lucifer into hell...I guess that would leave Michael as a Manwe type:)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

But isn't Michael the captain of the Hosts of Heaven? The impression I got of Manwe was of a pure, pacifistic good, which is altogether too pure to truly understand the nature of Evil; isn't that why He released Morgoth?

Also, I think there's only one archangel, Michael. Of course, there is no where in the Bible where it says this, but a few things I found when researching angels/archangels for a discussion of them on another board led me to that belief.

Also, Tolkien often refers to the Valar as gods (lower case 'g'), and he refers to Iluvatar as God (upper case 'G'), both in the Letters. I think he summed it up best when he said (parphrasing here, don't remember the exact quote) 'The Valar are gods in regards to power, but not in regards to theology.' He also says that they are invoked from time to time by the peoples of Middle-Earth, but in the sense that Catholics may invoke a saint, rather than a prayer to God/a god.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But isn't Michael the captain of the Hosts of Heaven? The impression I got of Manwe was of a pure, pacifistic good, which is altogether too pure to truly understand the nature of Evil; isn't that why He released Morgoth?

Also, I think there's only one archangel, Michael. Of course, there is no where in the Bible where it says this, but a few things I found when researching angels/archangels for a discussion of them on another board led me to that belief.

Also, Tolkien often refers to the Valar as gods (lower case 'g'), and he refers to Iluvatar as God (upper case 'G'), both in the Letters. I think he summed it up best when he said (parphrasing here, don't remember the exact quote) 'The Valar are gods in regards to power, but not in regards to theology.' He also says that they are invoked from time to time by the peoples of Middle-Earth, but in the sense that Catholics may invoke a saint, rather than a prayer to God/a god.

I don't think that Michael is exactly like Manwe but they are similar. Lucifer was the highest angel untill he chose not to follow God...According to Catholic tradition, the angels were given one choice, to follow God or to not follow Him.
I think that Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are all considered archangels. Michael is the captian of the Host of Heaven. I think the Bible only names 3 those angels specifically. I do remember in Lotr where Faramir asks the Valar to have mercy on someone...I forget who....I guess that is sort of parallel to Catholics asking a saint to intercede for them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think it was "May the Valar turn him (Mumak) aside!" Of course, they could have both been there. :) And let's not forget the numerous invocations of Elbereth. :D

[Rían]

OH NO! Artanis is going to start quoting "Letters" now and Maedhros will have an even harder time telling us apart :D

Artanis, I started reading this thread from the bottom, working up, and was just reaching for my copy of "Letters" to quote the passage that you quoted when I saw .... you beat me to it! This is really getting scary ;)

Well, I'll add this:from Letters of JRR Tolkien, letter #156
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Artanis
Here is Tolkien's own words, from Letter #131:Eru = God, the Creator
The Valar = Angelic powers, rulers of the world.
Originally posted by RÃ*an
from Letters of JRR Tolkien, letter #156
Do you see what I mean?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
OH NO! Artanis is going to start quoting "Letters" now and Maedhros will have an even harder time telling us apart :DIt doesn't matter as long as it's you Rian :p You know, we could exchange avatars :D
Artanis, I started reading this thread from the bottom, working up, and was just reaching for my copy of "Letters" to quote the passage that you quoted when I saw .... you beat me to it! This is really getting scary ;) :p

Does anyone in LotR name Eru at all? They speak about the Valar, or the powers, but I can't remember anyone speak about the One.

[Rían]

I just got a GREAT idea for April fool's day ... mwahahahaha!

I'll PM you about it later, Artanis...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I just got a GREAT idea for April fool's day ... mwahahahaha!

I'll PM you about it later, Artanis... You guys can never out do the mods and admins here during April Fools. Be prepared. Mwahahaha!

Tater, where are you?

[afro-elf]

from Letters of JRR Tolkien, letter #156

There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

I guess it's your pick: angelic powers OR gods

[BeardofPants]

How about Demi-Gods?

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I just got a GREAT idea for April fool's day ... mwahahahaha!

I'll PM you about it later, Artanis...

Switching avatars is the oldest trick in the book. :p

[Rían]

I should have been clearer in my quote, AE - he goes on to say that 'gods' is more of a translation thing.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I should have been clearer in my quote, AE - he goes on to say that 'gods' is more of a translation thing.

Gothca

[Cirdan]

From the forward of The Silmarillion:

In his later writing mythology and poetry sank down behind his theological and philosophical preoccupations : from which arose incompatibilities of tone.

I think that best explains the feelinmg that the Valar are modeled after pagan/polytheistic mythologies like those of the Greeks, Norse, etc. and yet behave more like angels (more looking for righteous responses from the children of Iluvatar). The earlier tales read more like mythology which makes sense. A young man newly absorbed in languages and cultures richly populated with myth. The older man becomes more concerned with his mortality and immortal soul. The letters are relevant to the time in which they were written (twenty-five years after the myths were initially concieved). The same letter uses the term 'angel' or 'angelic' in quoted format, meaing like an angel.

The same letter discusses the idea that the Elves "escaped from 'religion' in the pagan sense, into a pure monotheistic world..." through the direct relationship with Iluvatar. That escape must be from the world where only the Valar were known directly. He creates a world where pagan view exist so that the children of Iluvatar can be saved, in the Christian sense.

And from letter# 131

In the cosmology there is a fall: a fall of Angels shall we say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of the Christian myth. These tales are 'new', they are not directly derived from other myths and legends, but must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives or elements.

Clearly the Valar contain, in many aspects, the characteristics of some pagan gods (manifestations of the forces of Nature, for instance), as well as more traditional aspects from the monotheistic tradition. They clearly are directly by the creator, though this is not much different in most pagan hierarchical structures. The greater difference is the role of the Valar, which is more 'angelic'.

I think the is more to Tolkien's interchangeable use of angel and god than language. Also so aspects of the nature of the myth changed ever so slightly over time, with some elimination of the pagan mythology in favor of more monotheistic themes. The early creation myth found in BoLT 1 contains some decriptions of Iluvatar that are not found in the Silmarillion which sound less like the montheistic god.

The use of pagan like characters as angels provides for more colorful characters like Ulmo. In the end they must perform like "angels" to fullfill Tolkien's "wholly catholic" works.

Angellic gods or godly angels?:)

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I think that Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are all considered archangels. Michael is the captian of the Host of Heaven. I think the Bible only names 3 those angels specifically. . Uriel is also an Archangel.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Attalus
Uriel is also an Archangel.

I always thought that Uriel was more of a Wiccan belief...does it mention him in the Bible?

[Lalaith]

Angels; I don't like the thought of having more than one god and the one god is Iluvatar .... and as Tolkien was a Christ I think he also only believes in one god.

[Amandil]

Cool, Tolkien was a Christ. I guess that's the point...

Haven't read the thread. Sorry.

Valar are "angels" that Men in their ignorance call "gods." Is this not so? I'm sure there's some nice succinct JRRT quote that says precisely this.

Toodle-oo!

[Rían]

I think Lalaith means "Christian", not "Christ". I imagine German, not English, is her first language, since she is from Austria. And Tolkien was certainly a Christian, as you can see in his letters published in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

I really admire the people that post on an English-language message board when their first language isn't English. I sure wish I spoke a second language, but I'm a typical American.... I did take a couple of years of German in high school, and I had a great teacher that really worked on accents, and I was in Switzerland once and spoke some German and the shopkeeper thought I was a German because of my accent! She soon found out I wasn't, though, because I couldn't keep up with her when she answered me! That was the highlight of my foreign language experience, though, that a native German speaker (Swiss-German) thought I was German :)

Yes, Amandil, if you look back a bit in the thread you'll see some quotes.

[Lalaith]

Oh my god, surley I meant Christian and not Christ. I'm always confusing that. Sorry.
And, yeah, my first language is German and as I know that this language is difficult I really admire everybody who learns German and is able to speak it.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I always thought that Uriel was more of a Wiccan belief...does it mention him in the Bible? He is mentioned in the Book of Enoch. Look here (http://www.uriel.org/Uriel/Archangel.htm)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Attalus
He is mentioned in the Book of Enoch. Look here (http://www.uriel.org/Uriel/Archangel.htm)

I know this is OT but is the Book of Enoch included in the Bible? It sounds like an apocryphical book.

[Attalus]

Yes, it is in the Apocrypha, see here (http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm)

[Cirdan]

...and the Catholic mythology is here (http://www.catholic.org/saints/)

[Amandil]

Damn right Tolkien was a Christian! :)

Oh sorry, Lalaith, I didn't mean to insult your English abilities. I'm currently trying to learn another language at the moment -- Nederlands (Holländisch, auf Deutsch? Dutch, in English) -- and I'm so frigging bad at it I could never do what you do. You have my respect.

And my comment about "being a Christ" was an unfortunately too-obscure compliment. The literal, etymological translation of "Christian" is something like "little Christ," I do believe. C.S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity that the whole point of the religion is to produce a whole lot of little Christs. So if you call a Christian a "Christ," it's actually a gigantic compliment. Christians are supposed to be like Christ. And if one of us actually does come off this way, wow that would be stupendous. 'Course you didn't actually mean this, but the implication was really quite nice. Tolkien would be proud if people here thought he was Christ-like enough to be called that! :)

Love,

[Blackboar]

Tolkien was said to describe Gandalf as an angel, so if the maia are described as angels, what about the Valar?
The Valar are said to be angelic spirits, but gods have angelic spirits, if they are known as angels, would the maiar be just more angels, serving the ones with more power, or are they more gods, just ones created be the one, with less power.

I'm confused...

[Lalaith]

Oh sorry, Lalaith, I didn't mean to insult your English abilities. I'm currently trying to learn another language at the moment -- Nederlands (Holländisch, auf Deutsch? Dutch, in English) -- and I'm so frigging bad at it I could never do what you do. You have my respect.
Thank you. Yeah, Dutch would be a very cool language too. And I don't think it would be too difficult if you are able to speak German and English already.

Yes, it is in the Apocrypha, see here
Okay, I actually read the bible but I don't remember these parts.

And could the Valar and the Maiar not be like the holy people in the Catholic curch? Or maybe Angels.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Okay, I actually read the bible but I don't remember these parts.

And could the Valar and the Maiar not be like the holy people in the Catholic curch? Or maybe Angels.

I think Tolkien wanted the ainur...both valar and maiar to represent "angels". Valar would be considered arch-angels and mair just angels.....According to Catholic teaching, angels can take physical form....hence Mary being visited by the angel Gabriel.

[Amandil]

Yeah, I was gonna say arch-angels too. There can be tougher angels, or king/queen angels, I guess. A hierarchy of angels. Not like I'm an angelogist. ainj-ologist.

Lalaith (nice name, I'm trying to get my wife to agree to name our daughter that), maybe you didn't read the Apocrypha part of the Bible because it's not usually part of the Bible. It's an extra part to most Hebrew and Protestant Bibles, but it was included in the Catholic Bible after the Reformation (1500s I think). The texts date back (roughly) to the "intertestemental period," or around the time of Alexander's Empire and the Ptolemies/Selucids that followed. Hellenistic Judiasm, I think, is their origin...blah blah blah...I haven't even read them, anyway. Is there lots of angel stuff in them or what? :) Hum de hum de hum...

[Lalaith]

Lalaith (nice name, I'm trying to get my wife to agree to name our daughter that),
OT: Lalaith is a top-name on my childrens-names list. I used to like Nienor Niniel, which sounds quite good, but it isn't a very joyful name. How do you explain your little daughter the name Sadness and tear girl (I don't know if this is the correct english version).
I'm still thinking of a boy's name. Maybe Aldarion.
And Nenya, Vilya and Narya are on my list too, as nicknames. Thinking of three children.

[Amandil]

Problem is, my wife thinks there's too many "L"s in Lalaith, so she thinks it sounds dumb.:mad: Oh well, I guess it's tough to convince a non-Tolkeener.

[Lalaith]

You didn't convince her to read LotR?

[Elvellyn]

I have a question about the Ainur, but am not sure where to post it.:confused:
Anyway... Were all the Ainur either Valar or Maiar? Were there any just plain ol' regular Ainur?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If I am correct, the Maiar and Valar were those of the Ainur who went into the circles of the world. Those who remained with Eru would probably be known by other names. :)

[Ruinel]

Valar: Gods or Angels? Answer: it depends upon your point of view.

If "god" is someone that creates... then both Eru Iluvatar and the Valar are capable and therefore have god-like qualities. After all, Aule created the Naugrim (Dwarves) long before the Children of Iluvatar were actually born.

On the other hand, the Ainulindale starts out with Eru, the One, creating the Ainur (Valar/Holy Ones). So, why would a god create other gods? More likely he created either demi-gods (which is apparent because their power is certainly less) or angelic beings that had the power to create but certainly not with the same capablilities that Eru had.

On the other hand, when Men were awakened in Arda they heard Eru's voice which spoke to them now and again. Then Melkor comes along and seduces them into worshipping him, as a god, and one who created them (Men) and the world.

On the other hand, when Andreth and Finrod *everyone's rolls eyes :rolleyes: * (hey! I'm trying to make a point here) are discussing possible help to rid Arda of Melkor, Andreth is asking Finrod, "How could Eru enter into a thing that He has made, and that which He is beyond measure greater?" And Finrod answers back, "He is already in it, as well as outside, but indeed the 'in-dwelling' and the 'out-living' are not in the same mode." (And there's more, but I'm already taking up too much space in this post.) And yet the Valar can come to Arda and appear as people (so to speak), ride spectacular horses (Orome) and walk in the woods, etc. Yet they have powers.

So, it depends upon your point of view. Yes, Tolkien was Catholic and Christian. Did this have influence on his writing? Probably, so. And it is certainly written in the letters as we have seen posted.

As a former Catholic/Christian now Atheist I just like the stories for the stories. I make no analogies to anything outside of them. I also believe that Tolkien felt the same way (about the analogies, not the Atheism). Hope I haven't offended anyone.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Tolkien said that the Valar were 'gods' imaginatively (or something like that) but not theologically.

And as for 'analogies', I don't know if this is what you mean, but Tolkien definitely said that Eru was God.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Tolkien said that the Valar were 'gods' imaginatively (or something like that) but not theologically.

And as for 'analogies', I don't know if this is what you mean, but Tolkien definitely said that Eru was God.

god or God?

[Melko Belcha]

I think Artanis on the first page said it all with the quote from Letters #131.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
I think Artanis on the first page said it all with the quote from Letters #131.

This doesn't help. The word "god" is at the beginning of a sentence and is capitalized. Although, I don't think it really matters. I'm sure JRRT was not subsidizing Eru Iluvatar for the God that he was brought up worshipping as a Catholic.

It is a story. And with it comes a mythology of creation. The stories JRRT created changed shaped over his lifetime. Upon reading the stories, I never really put a label of angel or god on the Valar, nor Iluvatar. Iluvatar is The Creator of all. The Valar are the keepers of the Creation.

What really constitutes a god anyway? Definition: any of various beings conceived of as supernatural and immortal; an idol; a person or thing deified in monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe; Supreme Being.

In this respect, both Eru Iluvatar as well as the Valar would fit the definition.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Ruinel
This doesn't help. The word "god" is at the beginning of a sentence and is capitalized. Although, I don't think it really matters. I'm sure JRRT was not subsidizing Eru Iluvatar for the God that he was brought up worshipping as a Catholic.

It is a story. And with it comes a mythology of creation. The stories JRRT created changed shaped over his lifetime. Upon reading the stories, I never really put a label of angel or god on the Valar, nor Iluvatar. Iluvatar is The Creator of all. The Valar are the keepers of the Creation.

What really constitutes a god anyway? Definition: any of various beings conceived of as supernatural and immortal; an idol; a person or thing deified in monotheistic religions, the creator and ruler of the universe; Supreme Being.

In this respect, both Eru Iluvatar as well as the Valar would fit the definition.
I should have stated more.
I don't think of Eru as the Catholic God. I took Tolkien capitalizing God as Eru being the top creator, and the lower case god as being like the demi-gods of Greek Mythology.
I do not compare the Valar and Maiar to the Greek gods. I see them as being neither gods or angels, they are alot like us, they make mistakes, are not sure of things, and are not in full control of the things that happen to them.
I'm not doing a good job at trying to display my thoughts, but I hope my point is understood. :confused:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I disagree. I think that Tolkien did see Eru as the Christian God. After all, it is set in the same world; did God not come along until later, after Eru?

Just want to point out that the Greek gods are certainly fallible as well, not to mention a bit on the petty side.

[Cirdan]

Eru is certainly based on the God of Abraham but is clearly different. The creation story is completely different. He also states in the aforementioned letter that they are similar stories (his and the Christian mythology) but that his story is something new.

"Inspired by" and "the same" are two different things entirely.

The same would be when Frodo is "praised with great praise". That's right out of the book of common prayer.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
I should have stated more.
I don't think of Eru as the Catholic God. I took Tolkien capitalizing God as Eru being the top creator, and the lower case god as being like the demi-gods of Greek Mythology.
I do not compare the Valar and Maiar to the Greek gods. I see them as being neither gods or angels, they are alot like us, they make mistakes, are not sure of things, and are not in full control of the things that happen to them.
I'm not doing a good job at trying to display my thoughts, but I hope my point is understood. :confused:

Yes, I see it. And yes it is understood. :)

[Rían]

I think Eru Ilúvatar is definitely the Christian God. Here's another Letters quote you may have missed:

from Letters of JRR Tolkien, letter #156
There is only one 'god': God, Eru Ilúvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmogony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or governors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures.

And also in Letters, JRRT says the stories are based in this world, but in a time long ago, so that would also indicate that Eru Ilúvatar is the Christian God. The Valar have sub-creative powers, which are vastly different from the creative powers that Eru Ilúvatar has.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah! Listen to Rian! :D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think Eru Ilúvatar is definitely the Christian God. Here's another Letters quote you may have missed:



And also in Letters, JRRT says the stories are based in this world, but in a time long ago, so that would also indicate that Eru Ilúvatar is the Christian God. The Valar have sub-creative powers, which are vastly different from the creative powers that Eru Ilúvatar has.

I should probably bow out of this discussion b/c I do not believe in a supreme being that created everything, although I was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic school. Whether the character Eru is the Christian God or not, I think definitely depends upon whether you believe in a god or not.

[Rían]

I don't think it matters if you believe in a god or not, though. I was just pointing out that from what I can tell from his letters, it appears that Tolkien intended his character of Eru Ilúvatar to be the Christian god. For Christians, it's just kind of a special nice thing to know this. If you're not a Christian, then it doesn't really matter - Eru Ilúvatar is just one of the many wonderful characters in the book. Does that make sense? No offense intended to your beliefs at all :) - people of all beliefs can, and have, really enjoyed his writing.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I don't think it matters if you believe in a god or not, though. I was just pointing out that from what I can tell from his letters, it appears that Tolkien intended his character of Eru Ilúvatar to be the Christian god. For Christians, it's just kind of a special nice thing to know this. If you're not a Christian, then it doesn't really matter - Eru Ilúvatar is just one of the many wonderful characters in the book. Does that make sense? No offense intended to your beliefs at all :) - people of all beliefs can, and have, really enjoyed his writing.
:D You can not offend me, RÃ*an, I have no "belief-system". What I meant was that it is always better not to say anything to believers that would offend them if you are not one. And I'm afraid I might say the wrong thing. This is why I should bow out.

[Cirdan]

There is really nothing in the quote that specifies a christian god, only the monotheistic heirarchy of Tolkien's mythology. Tolkien rarely disguises his christianity, so here he is specifically, (and not allegorically;0) discussing his work. It is an extension of his faith, not a replica of it.