Celeborn

[easygreen]

Does anyone know what Celeborn's relationship with Thingol is exactly?

[Eruve]

I believe Celeborn's relationship to Thingol was something that kind of evolved. IIRC, Sil. says he was a kinsman, which can mean a cousin of some degree or another. There is a section in Unfinished Tales dealing with the history of Galadriel and Celeborn which gives us an idea of how JRRT viewed Celeborn at various times. Based on the published texts (Sil and LOTR), Celeborn was "the grandson of Thngol's brother Elmo--a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he was the younger brother of Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe, and was 'beloved of Elwe with whom he remained'. (Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the daughter of Nimloth, who was wedded to Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwe of Alqualonde...)" UT, p.233.

[Gollum]

i just think its funny Celeborn's real name is "TelePorno" no joke read it in the appendixes

[Fat middle]

you see, i knew that Gollum was a hobbit, hummm :)

[easygreen]

Thanks very much for the Celeborn genealogy.

Second question, to anyone who might know the answer. Does Celeborn go over the sea in the end?

His parting words to Aragorn in LOTR impy that he will not join Galadriel in the west, ever: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"

But, after Galadriel departs, Celeborn apparently tires of his new realm in southern Mirkwood, and goes to Imladris. Then he sort of disappears. When Arwen returns to Lorien after Elessar's death, the appendix material in The Return of the King informs us that "Celeborn also was gone."

So what happened to him?

I'd like to think that love for Galadriel finally brings him to Valinor, love overcoming whatever it is that's kept him from completing the journey he began when the Teleri were first venturing westward. (I'd guess that he was numbered among the "kinfolk and friends" of Elwe who tarried looking for him while Olwe was bringing the main host over.)

Galadriel is my favorite character, so it'd be comforting to know that in returning to the Undying Lands she hasn't been sundered for all eternity from her beloved. But having only the books of the trilogy and The Silmarillion, I can't seem to find the answer.

[anduin]

Don't worry easygreen, someone amongst us will be able to answer your question. Yoohoo... Eruve........

BTW, welcome to Entmoot! :)

[Eruve]

Actually, I don't know if Celeborn's fate is ever spelled out... It might be in Letters, I'll have to check. I'll let you know if I find out anything. BTW, the Elves who returned into the West couln't go back to Valinor. They went to Tol Eressea.

[Maglor]

Celeborn went to the west some years after Aragorns death, possibly along with Elladan and Elrohir.

Maglor

[Fat middle]

I´m pretty sure he went west but i cannot remember now the qoute nor the source. "somewhere" (and that must be LOTR, or Apendixes, cuz i haven´t read any other book save Hobbit and Sil.) Tolkien says he went west in the latest ship (i guess excluding that of Legolas).

i yhink it says something as "last of all departed Celeborn with the last ship"

but perhaps i´m wrong <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

[easygreen]

According to the Quenta Silmarillion, after Morgoth's final defeat, the Vanyar return straight to Valinor. The Elves of Beleriand, on the other hand, "dwelt upon Tor Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might even come to Valinor."

Similarly, in the section entitled "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age": "From the Grey Havens the Elder ever and anon set sail, fleeing from the darkness of the days of Earth; for by the mercy of the Valar the Firstborn could still follow the Straight road and return, if they would, to their kindred in Eressea and Valinor beyond the encircling sea."

The first passage indicates that the Exiles (with the Sindar) did indeed touch down in Eressea, but it doesn't seem as though they were stuck there. Least that's how I read "whence they might even come to Valinor." The second passage doesn't mention a ban against the Noldor, so I just assume that the edict against them has been lifted.

The sundering of the Eldar was Morgoth's doing, so it seems fitting that the rift should be healed with his final overthrow.

But maybe I'm misreading everything.

[Fat middle]

Sorry, easygreen, i cannot think about that now, i cannot find the quote i mentioned upper and i´m going mad because now i remember it better: it said something as "last of all departed Celeborn and with him went the last memory of the Elder Days"

does anybody know what i´m talking about?

i cannot think where he departed to if i don´t know if he departed at all 8o

[Fat middle]

Now i have found peace at last :) I haven´t found that quote, but i´ve found another from Michael Martinez which says: "When Celeborn finally sailed over Sea, Tolkien notes, the last living memory of the Elder Days went with him."

I take that as if it came directly from the Professor ;)

[Eruve]

Woah, easygreen, I'm in a bind similar to Fat Middle. I know there's a passage somewhere that says the exiles can't live in Valinor (maybe they can visit...), but I'll have to find it. Don't know if I'll have time today. Fat Middle's passage is bugging me, too. I know I've read that somewhere, too, but I can't find it! ARGH!

I think that second passage about their sundered kin in Valinor could refer to those that were left behind (i.e. the Elves the Exiles left behind were the ones in Valinor). Through intermarriage between the Vanyar and the Noldor some of the exiles had relatives in Valinor. The Vanyar had moved to Valinor by the time of the Revolt.

[Eruve]

OK, I made a mistake. Unless there's something else that I haven't had the time to look up, it wasn't that the Exiles couldn't go to Valinor, it's that they didn't for the most part. Just skimming through the Appendices to LOTR, I found this: "The First Age ended with the Great Battle, in which the Host of Valinor broke Thangorodrim and overthrew Morgoth. Then most of the Noldor returned into the Far West and dwelt in Eressea within sight of Valinor; and many of the Sindar went over the Sea also." That's from the beginning of Appendix B.

Fat Middle, that quote about Celeborn is really driving me nuts! I KNOW I've seen it, but I can't find it. Please, anyone who knows where that's from, put me out of my misery...

[Fat middle]

put us out of our misery ;)

[anduin]

Maybe the line should be put up at andustar's LOTR trivia quote thread..... ;)

Eruve, why don't you ask some of the other forums that you hang out in if they remember the line? :) Surely someone out there knows the answer.

And Easygreen, good topic......I just love a mystery. ;)

[Fat middle]

ufff, i found it. It´s the last line of the Prologue of LOTR. :)

[easygreen]

Thanks Fat Middle!

I thought I remembered a quote to that effect too, but it wasn't where I thought it'd be (the Talke of Years, or somewhere else in the appendix material). The prologue. Argh. The last place one would expect it almost.

It's interesting that the actual quote is "there is no record of" Celeborn's departure -- which could mean a) he departed after all the records were made or b) he didn't depart. The drift of the paragraph as a whole suggests the first choice. But Tolkien seems to have taken great pains to preserve the ambiguity, which he could easily have cleared up.

[Eruve]

Thanks! I would never have thought of looking there, either! One thing I did notice in my desperate search for that quote was at the end of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, the following: "Here ends this tale as it has come to us from the South; and with the passing of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old." Might this, perhaps, imply that Celeborn left after Arwen died, and so did not get recorded in the Red Book?

[Fat middle]

Had you ever been bother for the Celeborn´s choosing?

i mean, at the end of 1st Age Galadriel decided to stay at Middle Earth for her love to Celeborn besides her love for Middle Earth... And now, at the en of the 3rd Age, Celeborn decides not departing with his wife because he wants to stay a little more at ME.

i think that´s odd. i cannot believe he´s such a bad husband. Galadriel had no option. She had to depart because she had one of the 3 rings, and their time had ended. a good husband would go with her in spite of the love he could have for ME.

why did he stay? i´ve made a little theory to justify his attitude. i think he departed in the last Great Ship from the Grey Havens. it should be before Legolas departure, cuz he had to make his own ship. Legolas should know there was no ship yet at the Grey Havens, so he didn´t bother to go there, and sailed from the south. The date of Legolas departing is FA 120. That´s a very short period (in elven terms) after the Grey Havens chapter. If we assume that Celeborn had already departed it makes things odder. Why to part from his wife to "enjoy" ME such a short time?

i conclude he had to have a mission. after the departure or the 3 rings one great elven lord should stay to "convince" the rest of the elves that their time was ended. But i think he had another more definite mission.

how did Sam go west? how did he know he could depart? my little theory is that Celeborn´s mission was to stay at ME till the moment of Sam´s departure was came. Then he would go to the Shire and tell him his beloved Frodo was waiting for him far in the west and that he could go there in his own ship.

what do you think?

[Eruve]

Maybe Galadriel told Celeborn she needed some space... How long had these two been married? A few millenia? Sometimes married couples need some time apart; the reuniting is all the sweeter... OTOH maybe Celeborn was tired of her sniping at him...

[anduin]

:lol: ....Eruve, that's a good one! :)

[etherealunicorn]

I thought that Celeborn was never considered one of the High Elves, in that he had never made the original journey to Valinor. Perhaps, since ME was all he had ever known(if I am remembering correctly), he had no great desire to leave it and go to Valinor.

[easygreen]

Poor Celeborn is bored out of his wits with Galadriel gone. It's really very poignant. First he moves out of Lorien and into Mirkwood, and then to Rivendell, and finally to the Havens and over the sea. Celeborn suddenly (and I mean suddenly) gets very antsy (remember, this guy had been living at the same address since the end of the First Age).

I like Fat Middle's interpretation. Celeborn obviously has some important business to attend to when Galadriel goes, otherwise he'd have sailed off on the very next boat. As the last Prince of the House of Elwe, Celeborn is sort of obligated to gather and bring across the remnant of the Sindarin Teleri. That was Elwe's job originally, and it falls upon the surviving members of his house to complete the task in the same way that it falls upon Aragorn to mend Isildur's fault.

But there's one other thing too -- call it the "Horatio" function. Horatio is the guy in _Hamlet_ who sees everybody croak, and -- overcome with grief -- wants to die too. But Hamlet says to him: "If thou didst ever hold me in thy heart / Absent thee from felicity awhile, / And in this harsh world draw thy breath in pain / To tell my story."

Celeborn is the last living memory of the Elder Days left in Middle Earth when all the others departs. With Elrond and Galadriel gone, he takes up residence in Rivendell, the old center of lore and storytelling, and assists in the composition of the Tale of Years. In short, Celeborn in the Fourth Age becomes a singular repository of information about ancient days and when he goes over the sea the trials of the elves in the early ages of the world cease to be lived experience and become legend instead.

Like Horatio, Celeborn forsakes "felicity awhile," to make sure that a tragic and yet heroic story is put down accurately for the edification of later generations.

[Eruve]

I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, easygreen... But it's not true that Celeborn lived at the same address since the end of the first age. He and Galadriel actually moved around a bit before settling in Lorien. There is a note in Unfinished Tales to the effect that many commentators have assumed G&C were in Lorien from the latter part of the second age onward since there is no statement to the contrary in LOTR. According to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn found in UT, they lived by Lake Nenuial, then went eastward and helped establish Eregion. They were in and out of Lorien during the second age as well. They didn't take up their government of Lorien as portrayed in LOTR until around TA 1981.

It's also interesting to note that Celeborn and Galadriel separated from each other for a time during the second age. After Eregion was destroyed, Celeborn went to Imladris for a while and Galadriel went to Lorien.

The story behind this couple is a complicated one. JRRT changed it several times. At one point Amroth was supposed to be their son, but then Amroth was later said to be of Sindarin origin, the son of Amdir, King of Lorien. JRRT also changed his mind about Celeborn's origins. According to Sil, he would have been born in Doriath, but later in his life, JRRT considered changing the story and having Celeborn be born in Aman. Celeborn would have come back to Middle-earth with Galadriel but not as part of Feanor's revolt.

[easygreen]

Yep, obvious error. The evidence in LOTR is in appendix B on The Second Age: "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women."

LOTR doesn't put them anywhere definite again until The War of the Ring, when they are of course in Lorien. The story of Celeborn and Galadriel not finalized apparently, and no early entries in the chronology given so Tolkien had plenty of elbow room with respect to these two characters. Even The Silmarillion doesn't say a heck of a lot.

I'd be curious to know more about the late model Celeborn you mention. Since LOTR already established that Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol, would an Aman-born Celeborn have been one of Olwe's folk of Alqualonde? And if so, why would he have gone to ME with a woman of the Noldor after the kinslaying?

[etherealunicorn]

You are right that the story of Galadriel and Celeborn seems to have undergone considerable revision throughout Tolkien's life. I have never been entirely sure which version is the correct one. Still, if Celeborn is assumed to have come from Aman with Galadriel after the kinslaying, perhaps it was for love, since that seems to be a common vein throughout. Still, I believe that the Silmarilion states that, as far as Galadriel was concerned:
...Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Feanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will." Furthermore, I will swear that I remember reading somewhere (perhaps in Unfinished Tales?) that Galadriel had taken no part in the Kinslaying by virtue of a relation to the Teleri. I wish I could find the reference now, but I will have to look for it. Anyway, perhaps by virtue of this, Celeborn would have harbored no ill will toward Galadriel.

[etherealunicorn]

I found that reference I was looking for. It was indeed in Unfinished Tales, the History of Galadriel and Celeborn. Here is the quotation:
"Pondering what she might do Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualonde. There she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerin prince, the grandson of Olwe of Alqualonde and thus her close kinsman (but let's not dwell too much on THOSE implications-hahaha). Together they planned to build a ship and sail in it to Middle-earth; and they were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and returning with Ungoliant destroyed the light of the Trees. In feanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them. Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Feanor, set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwe's leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return. But together with Celeborn she reached Middle-earth somewhat sooner than Feanor, and sailed into the haven where Cirdan was lord. There they were welcomed with joy, as being the kin of Elwe(Thingol)."
Perhaps in light of this view, Celeborn would have been tremendously impressed that Galadriel would have been willing to defend the Teleri against her own Noldorin kin, blood relation aside. I think that would be the explanation for the two of them to come together, if one accepts the view that Celeborn had been to Aman.

[Fat middle]

wow, i had overlooked the last posts of this thread. i must thank you all for i have learnt a lot of the story of Celeborn.

especially i love easygreen´s conjecture about the role of Celeborn as last living memory and his parallel with Horatio. BTW, thaks for visiting Illyria ;)