Of Turin Turambar

[anarion]

Chapter 21 is my favorite of the entire book.
I enjoyed The chapter on Turin more in Unfinished Tales!

[Lalaith]

Is it possible? Is there really someone out there who likes Turin Turambar except me?

[Falagar]

Yes, I liked him. But then I'm known for taking side with the bad good-guys ;)

[Radagast The Brown]

I didn't like him at all. He was a bad evilish man., though he thought he's helping the good side. That's his problem.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, he wasn't an Elvish Man Radagast. He was just a Man, but there were times I liked Turin. I think I had more pity for him then like or dislike though.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, he wasn't an Elvish Man Radagast. He was just a Man, but there were times I liked Turin. I think I had more pity for him then like or dislike though.

I agree....Turin had such an unfortunate life because of the evils of Morgoth:(

[BeardofPants]

Turin is my favourite male human character; see my profile. I just don't think Nienor and Turin shared a pure love.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I just don't think Nienor and Turin shared a pure love. That's an understatement! Turin's story is sad. I like sad stories.

[Lalaith]

I love the fact that Túrin did all this things to help people and he didn't mean to do any bad. That was just Morgoth's spell. He would have been a good man without the spell.

[BeardofPants]

Hard to say. He was pretty willful. And I wouldn't say that he was working for the good of the people -- I always believed it was because he was driven to, due to the doom on the house of Hurin. *shrug* Guess I can't romanticise the story like you can.

[Arien the Maia]

Why was Morgoth out to get Hurin and his descendants? What harm had Hurin done to Morgoth that he and his family should be made to suffer so? I must have missed something in UT or the Sil...:confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Why was Morgoth out to get Hurin and his descendants? What harm had Hurin done to Morgoth that he and his family should be made to suffer so? I must have missed something in UT or the Sil...:confused: Hurin was captured in the Nirneath by fighting off the enemies to effect the escape of Turgon. Then he was taken to Morgoth. Morgoth wanted Hurin to reveal the location of Gondolin, but Hurin refused, and this is when Morgoth placed the curse upon him and his kin.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hurin was captured in the Nirneath by fighting off the enemies to effect the escape of Turgon. Then he was taken to Morgoth. Morgoth wanted Hurin to reveal the location of Gondolin, but Hurin refused, and this is when Morgoth placed the curse upon him and his kin.

ohhh now I get it! *thinks "My God", I need to read these books alot more!"* Thanks SGH:D

[Lalaith]

Okay, I've got something to say, but I don't remember the names. Excuse me, I'll try it anyway.
Everybody says that Túrin should be with Findulias (I hope this is her name), but I thought she was together with another elf, which came back to Nargothrond with Túrin? So actually Findulias should be together with this elf.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Okay, I've got something to say, but I don't remember the names. Excuse me, I'll try it anyway.
Everybody says that Túrin should be with Findulias (I hope this is her name), but I thought she was together with another elf, which came back to Nargothrond with Túrin? So actually Findulias should be together with this elf. Finduilas had at one time been in love with Gwindor who became captured in the Nirnaeth, but later escaped. Beleg came upon Gwindor sleeping beneath a tree and gave him lembas. They journeyed together to find Turin who had been captured and tormented by Orcs. When they found him, and Beleg attempted to cut his fetters, Turin not realizing it was Beleg and thinking Orcs had come to torment him again, grabbed Beleg's sword and killed him. When he saw what he had done, he was devistated. Gwindor Lead Turin back to Nargothrond where many no longer recognized Gwindor except for Finduilas, but when she saw Turin, she fell in love with him. Turin never returned her love, and then Gwindor was killed in the sack of Nargothrond. Before he died, he told Turin that it was up to him to rescue finduilas, or his doom would find him if he failed, which he did.

[Tar-Elendil]

i also enjoyed the chapters that detailed his life in the silamarillion, ut, and the lays of beleriand as well. he was cursed; when he did good, bad always seemed to follow. In my opinion, he was the most tangible and "human" character in all of Tolkien's writing.

[Lalaith]

After your good summary, Sister Golden Hair, I still have to say that Túrin not belonged to Findulias.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
After your good summary, Sister Golden Hair, I still have to say that Túrin not belonged to Findulias. Right. Turin did not love Finduilas. She loved him. It was a bit one sided. Finduilas also knew that Turin would never return her love. She told Gwindor as much. I think what people here are saying is that when Gwindor was dying and told Turin to go save Finduilas, that if he had succeeded in her rescue and then returned her love, his fate would have been otherwise and the events with Nienor would never have happened, but because of the curse of Morgoth, it just wasn't meant to be.

[Lalaith]

But then, maybe the dragon wouldn't be killed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
But then, maybe the dragon wouldn't be killed. Well, I know he was under a curse and everything, but I hate to say that had it not been for Turin, the location of Nargothrond would not have been revealed to the enemy and the dragon would not have been there.

[Lalaith]

Good point, but I guess the dragon would have gone to another place and disturbed the people there, although there would have been not that much gold and jewellery.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Good point, but I guess the dragon would have gone to another place and disturbed the people there, although there would have been not that much gold and jewellery. Nope. What brought Glaurung and the forces of Morgoth out was that Turin had convinced Orodreth to change Finrod's policy of secrecy and to defy the enemy more openly. Thus a bridge was built over the Narog leading to the doors of the underground fortress, and for a few years the armies of Nargothrond issued forth to free the lands from Orcs. However, when the enemy came to Tumhalad, Orodreth and Turin met them unwisely in open battle. Turin surrvived, but the Noldor were driven back and slaughtered. Then Glaurung sped to Nargothrond before the bridge could be cast down, and the city was sacked, and it's inhabbitants killed. Glaurung stayed in Nargothrond for nearly five years sitting upon his hoard, and thus effectively opened Taleth Dirnen to the enemy.

[Lalaith]

What can I say against you, Sister Golden Hair. Once more we don't share an opinion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
What can I say against you, Sister Golden Hair. Once more we don't share an opinion. Heehee! Well, isn't that what makes debating fun?:) But, what I posted is what happens in the Silmarillion and that is the events of that particular story.

[Insidious Rex]

*chuckling* I dub thee Lalaith the unphasable. Yer too much.

But getting back to the topic: Am I the only one that saw the long tortured story of Turin to be simply classic Shakespearian tragedy at its fullest? In fact theres a number of Shakespeare like tragedies in the book but this one has got to take the cake for the most gut wrenching. Its almost Hamlet like.

[Insidious Rex]

Actually its more Othello like now that I think about it.

[Lalaith]

I always thought that there are also many stories about the forbidden love between sister and brother but actually can't name a story by now.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I just read that chapter and it was great. Turin is my favourite men in Silmarillion. He is a great worrier but unlucky. I don’t thing anyone could easily kill him in one on one combat. Killing himself wasn’t a good idea but can u blame him? He slew beleg which I though was a great elf, sadly died like that. The chapter is full of great stuff.
Turin son of Hurin, bane of glaurung.
One thing, when the sword spoke was that just an like a thing in his head?

[Sister Golden Hair]

One thing, when the sword spoke was that just an like a thing in his head? I don't think so. Eol had made that sword, and it was like it was setient or cursed. It had some very strange properties, and it had turned on everyone that had owned it, IIRC.

[Falagar]

or perhaps Turin had had one too many curses upon him?
You know, marrying your sister, living among Elves, seeing dragons, killing people is not what I call normal behaviour for a man in his age.

Now, on my age on the other hand... :D

[Cirdan]

I am Turin.

[Lalaith]

Turin is my favourite man in Silmarillion.
Thank you for that.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Finduilas had at one time been in love with Gwindor who became captured in the Nirnaeth, but later escaped. Beleg came upon Gwindor sleeping beneath a tree and gave him lembas. They journeyed together to find Turin who had been captured and tormented by Orcs. When they found him, and Beleg attempted to cut his fetters, Turin not realizing it was Beleg and thinking Orcs had come to torment him again, grabbed Beleg's sword and killed him. When he saw what he had done, he was devistated. Gwindor Lead Turin back to Nargothrond where many no longer recognized Gwindor except for Finduilas, but when she saw Turin, she fell in love with him. Turin never returned her love, and then Gwindor was killed in the sack of Nargothrond. Before he died, he told Turin that it was up to him to rescue finduilas, or his doom would find him if he failed, which he did.
This is an almost unique moment in the legendarium. I think this is the first time that I can recall that an elf changes her mind. I don't want to be hard on Finduilas, but it seems like shallowness to me, she was in love with Gwindor, but after being a slave of Morgoth over the years, he was not as beautiful, as he once was. Is it shallowness or is it just me?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is an almost unique moment in the legendarium. I think this is the first time that I can recall that an elf changes her mind. I don't want to be hard on Finduilas, but it seems like shallowness to me, she was in love with Gwindor, but after being a slave of Morgoth over the years, he was not as beautiful, as he once was. Is it shallowness or is it just me? I'll difinately agree with that. Gwindor was quite changed. No longer the noble fair lord that he had been. Turin was strong and young and he turned her head by that. I think Finduilas still loved Gwindor, but not as before. Turin was new and impressive, and being in high favor with the king helped.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
This is an almost unique moment in the legendarium. I think this is the first time that I can recall that an elf changes her mind.Ehem - you seem to forget your own grandfather, Finwë. I don't want to be hard on Finduilas, but it seems like shallowness to me, she was in love with Gwindor, but after being a slave of Morgoth over the years, he was not as beautiful, as he once was. Is it shallowness or is it just me? It could be shallowness, but it could also be that Morgoth's curse on Húrin and his children worked on Finduilas as well. Part of the curse seem to be that Túrin eventually would cause grief and sorrow to all that became close to him.

[Maedhros]

Ehem - you seem to forget your own grandfather, Finwë.
At least with grandpa, his wife MÃ*riel Þerindë, had died. What's the excuse of Finduilas.
Finwë, if MÃ*riel had lived, would have never abandoned her.
It could be shallowness, but it could also be that Morgoth's curse on Húrin and his children worked on Finduilas as well. Part of the curse seem to be that Túrin eventually would cause grief and sorrow to all that became close to him.
Nooperz. Finduilas had nothing to do with the curse of Húrin. You cannot absolve her like that.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
At least with grandpa, his wife MÃ*riel Þerindë, had died. What's the excuse of Finduilas.
Finwë, if MÃ*riel had lived, would have never abandoned her.Death is no excuse for Elves. Their marriages are supposed to last as long as the world exists. Finwe and Miriel were married, and yet Finwë married Indis as well. Finduilas was not married, not even betrothed.

Nooperz. Finduilas had nothing to do with the curse of Húrin. You cannot absolve her like that. I don't absolve her, I'm just putting forth a theory. But she did not want to abandon Gwindor. Her heart turned against her will.

[Maedhros]

Death is no excuse for Elves. Their marriages are supposed to last as long as the world exists. Finwë and MÃ*riel were married, and yet Finwë married Indis as well. Finduilas was not married, not even betrothed.
It was a failing of love. Plain and simple.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas, Stature of Finwë and MÃ*riel
For the fëa of MÃ*riel may have departed by necessity, but it departed in the will not to return. Therein was her fault, for this will was not under compulsion irresistible; it was a failure in hope by the fëa, acceptance of the weariness and weakness of the body, as a thing beyond healing, and which therefore was not healed. But this resolve entailed not only abandoning her own life, but also the desertion of her spouse, and the marring of his. The justification which she urged is insufficient; for by the gift of a child however great, nor indeed by the gift of many children, the union of marriage is not ended, having further purpose. For one thing, Fëanáro will be deprived of the mother's part in his nurture. Moreover, if she would return she need bear no more, unless by the renewal of rebirth her weariness were healed.
'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife: that was a failing in full love.
Sad indeed.

[Artanis]

Haven't we discussed this before - "Laws and customs" :)

Now back to Túrin. What a man he would have been, had not the curse been upon him.

[Lalaith]

Now back to Túrin. What a man he would have been, had not the curse been upon him.
I'd say he would have been a great men. He would have done great things that men would have sung songs of, but probably he would still have been a little arrogant. But a warrior to admire.

[azalea]

I just finished reading this chapter last night and found it very enjoyable, if sad. I actually found Turin hard to like (personality-wise, not character-wise). Each time he would do something that made me like him, he would turn around and then do something that made frustrated at him. He seemed to me to be flawed, and I don't know if it was because of the curse, or if his inherent personality made things even worse.
Would things have been different if his mother had not sent him away? She could have gone with him if it really was too dangerous for him to stay.
I think the love he and Nienor felt was really love, but it was the bond of blood, which then was mistaken for romantic love. That was such a shame. It surprises me that they both ended up killing themselves. I'm trying to think of other true suicides in ME.
I was very upset when he killed Beleg! I know it was an accident, but rrrrrrrr. I think that scene and the scene where he finds Nienor would look really good dramatized onscreen, BTW. The pictures in my mind at those points were very vivid.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I'd say he would have been a great men. He would have done great things that men would have sung songs of, but probably he would still have been a little arrogant. But a warrior to admire.
I think even with the curse Turin was still a great warrior. Where ever he went everyone seemed to like him and wanted him to be their ruler or he would just take charge in battle anyway. I think he was a little arrogant because he was son of Hurin and was brough up by Thingol.

[Lalaith]

I think he was a little arrogant because he was son of Hurin and was brough up by Thingol.
Good point. I think you're right. And maybe the curse caused his arrogant character.

[azalea]

Maybe he became a jerk because he was brought up by Thingol!:p

[Sister Golden Hair]

Very good point.:D

[Falagar]

A very fine point indeed...

[Lord Manafirogh]

Maybe he became a jerk because he was brought up by Thingol!
What i ment is that maybe because he was brought up by thingol king of doriath, Turin could have though that he was great.
Any way why don't you make a point then since your so smart!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh
What i ment is that maybe because he was brought up by thingol king of doriath, Turin could have though that he was great.
Any way why don't you make a point then since your so smart! My opinion of Thingol is that he was a self centered arrogant jerk that thrived off of the power of his wife. He was rude to the Noldor upon their arrival to Middle-earth. He was very arrogant if not racist towards Men. The fact that he mellowed in later years does not excuse him. He sent Beren on a quest that he was sure would mean his death, nomatter how much it would hurt his daughter, and should have known that she would follow him, putting her at risk. He inadvertantly caused his nephews death by this scheme, knowing that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. [talk about a kinslayer] and then, like the true idiot he was, took the Silmaril and in his greedy state was killed for it.

As for Turin, he was under a curse and that was one thing. He also I think had a great deal of pride which is another, so I won't place the burden on Thingol, but will say that if he were my dad, I would have been out of there too.

Btw, where would Thingol have been without Mrs. Maia?;)

[Maedhros]

My opinion of Thingol is that he was a self centered arrogant jerk that thrived off of the power of his wife. He was rude to the Noldor upon their arrival to Middle-earth. He was very arrogant if not racist towards Men. The fact that he mellowed in later years does not excuse him. He sent Beren on a quest that he was sure would mean his death, nomatter how much it would hurt his daughter, and should have known that she would follow him, putting her at risk. He inadvertantly caused his nephews death by this scheme, knowing that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. [talk about a kinslayer] and then, like the true idiot he was, took the Silmaril and in his greedy state was killed for it.
Hmmmm, Beren asked Finrod for help? In the case of the Steadfast, it was he who helped a Ñoldorian king. :eek:
Not even I have that low of an opinion of Thingol. It goes to show that only the dumb elves would look for such a character and that Oromë errered big time in selecting such an elf for an ambassador.
Túrin was never in control of his life, he seems to me that he was always reacting and never he took the initiative. He didn't trust his friend.
Btw, where would Thingol have been without Mrs. Maia?
Thingol is a pitiful excuse for an elf.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Beren asked Finrod for help? Yep. He asked him for help on a quest that Thingol sent him on in the hopes of him never returning. Beren had shown the Ring of Barahir to Thingol, so when Thingol devised his treacherous little plan, he knew that Beren would go straight to Finrod for aid.

[Maedhros]

Yep. He asked him for help on a quest that Thingol sent him on in the hopes of him never returning. Beren had shown the Ring of Barahir to Thingol, so when Thingol devised his treacherous little plan, he knew that Beren would go straight to Finrod for aid.
Interesting, but are you telling me that Beren ask Finrod to go with him to a very dangerous quest that had the purpose for Beren to get married?
Sounds a little selfish to me.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Interesting, but are you telling me that Beren ask Finrod to go with him to a very dangerous quest that had the purpose for Beren to get married?
Sounds a little selfish to me. That about sums it up.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Lord Manafirogh

Any way why don't you make a point then since your so smart!

???I thought I just did! I was kidding, but I was actually half-serious, although I'm sure Tolkien did not intend what I was suggesting. I mean, if a boy is raised by a male who is self-centered and proud, he's bound to be self-centered and proud as well. It would of course depend on just how closely Thingol was involved in Turin's upbringing.
Maybe the Curse was actually that Turin would have to be brought up by Thingol, and the rest was just incidental!:p

A question re: the above posts: But didn't Finrod have a motivation as well, to try to retrieve the Silmarils? It wasn't JUST about Beren's love-life, was it? Prhaps Finrod saw it as an opportunity of sorts?

(LM, I think you thought I was making fun of your post. I wasn't, I was just expressing a funny thought. Either that or you're a Thingol-lover, in which case, my condolences;) ).

[Sister Golden Hair]

A question re: the above posts: But didn't Finrod have a motivation as well, to try to retrieve the Silmarils? It wasn't JUST about Beren's love-life, was it? Prhaps Finrod saw it as an opportunity of sorts? No.

From the published Silmarillion.

Thus Beren came before King Finrod Felagund; and Felagund knew him, needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Bëor and of Barahir. Behind closed doors they sat, and Beren told of the death of Barahir, and of all that had befallen him in Doriath; and he wept, recalling Lúthien and their joy together. But Felagund heard his tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel. He spoke then to Beren in heaviness of heart. 'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and that the Oath of Fëanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber; and the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told. Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared.'

[Lalaith]

I like the thought of blaming Thingol, as I think he was a very arrogant and selfish character. But has not been all his fault. Think about the dragon, and Morgoth and Turin himself (although I love him in the books I have to say that) had also something to do with all the bad things he did.

[Lord Manafirogh]

(LM, I think you thought I was making fun of your post. I wasn't, I was just expressing a funny thought. Either that or you're a Thingol-lover, in which case, my condolences ).
Well ok. Sorry about that.
Thingol is not one of my favourite people, in fact I don't really like him. How could he claim the Simaril? What did he do apart from sending Beren to his quest which seemed like committing suicide. Didn’t really do anything to impress me.

[azalea]

SGH, putting it that way, with the quote you gave, really takes Beren down a notch in my eyes! I mean, love is a grand thing, but to put another in mortal danger, esp. an important elf like Finrod, for it is irresponsible. I wouldn't have been able to live w/ myself! Anyway, back OT...:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by azalea
SGH, putting it that way, with the quote you gave, really takes Beren down a notch in my eyes! I mean, love is a grand thing, but to put another in mortal danger, esp. an important elf like Finrod, for it is irresponsible. I wouldn't have been able to live w/ myself! Anyway, back OT...:) Just to comment on your post azalea. You must understand that Finrod had sworn an oath of abiding friendship to Barahir and his kin. So it was only logical for Beren to turn to Finrod when he needed help. It was help guaranteed.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
My opinion of Thingol is that he was a self centered arrogant jerk that thrived off of the power of his wife. He was rude to the Noldor upon their arrival to Middle-earth. He was very arrogant if not racist towards Men. The fact that he mellowed in later years does not excuse him. He sent Beren on a quest that he was sure would mean his death, nomatter how much it would hurt his daughter, and should have known that she would follow him, putting her at risk. He inadvertantly caused his nephews death by this scheme, knowing that Beren would turn to Finrod for help. [talk about a kinslayer] and then, like the true idiot he was, took the Silmaril and in his greedy state was killed for it.

Thats a wonderful synopsis Sis. But you should also look at it from his point of view. he wasnt a very nice guy but he was thinking of his people too when he didnt want anyone interfering in his little realm. its the safest way he figured. and he saw the returning elves (and the humans) as outsiders who would only bring trouble. and they did really. doesnt mean hes justified in his actions but you can certainly understand his motivation.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Thats a wonderful synopsis Sis. But you should also look at it from his point of view. he wasnt a very nice guy but he was thinking of his people too when he didnt want anyone interfering in his little realm. its the safest way he figured. and he saw the returning elves (and the humans) as outsiders who would only bring trouble. and they did really. doesnt mean hes justified in his actions but you can certainly understand his motivation. Nope. That's like saying the world belongs to me and isn't big enough for both of us.

[FrodoFriend]

Originally posted by azalea
Maybe he became a jerk because he was brought up by Thingol!:p

What makes him a jerk? He obviously had a hard time of things (what with being cursed and all), but he generally did the best thing he could in every situation. It wasn't his fault everything went awry. Bah! Túrin has no flaws!

My favorite account of this tale is the Lay of the Children of Húrin from the Lays of Beleriand, even though it's a bit different from the final, canon version.

[Lalaith]

Yeah, now and then it occurs that somebody likes Turin. Thanks.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Yeah, now and then it occurs that somebody likes Turin. Thanks. Lalaith, here we can agree. I thought that Turin was a very powerful character, and his actions impacted the story to a tremendous degree and made it very exciting, but sad. The personality that Tolkien creates for Turin in amazing. He is one of those characters that a reader can have a love/hate relationship with.

[Lalaith]

Yeah, I read Turins story plenty times and every time I was like: Don't do that, don't do that. Go that way. Noooo, that's wrong.
I was always hoping that he would do the right thing but he didn't.
And my hate towards Morgoth grew and grew.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Turin is a good warrior. I like him. all though Hurin was said to be stronger.

[azalea]

I was just joking about his being a jerk, but my feeling about him was similar to Lalaith's, as I said in an earlier post. He did not always do the right thing, although he COULD have and just chose not to. But I feel badly for him, cursed through no fault of his own.

[Lalaith]

Deep in his heart and sould he must have been suffering very much.

[FrodoFriend]

He was suffering enough on the outside too.

As for choosing the wrong thing . . . well, who hasn't at some time or other? I think this character trait only makes him all the more believable and sympathetic. For most people there is a time when they know one thing is right but they still do something else, out of fear or anger or whatever. It's something I recognize and sympathize with rather than disparage.

[Lalaith]

The Story of Turin is a good example for the What if questions.