The Second Prophecy of Mandos

[Nerdel]

In the "Unfinished Tales" there is a reference about Dagor Dagorath, the Final Battle, when Melkor shall return. There is also the relevant "Second Prophecy of Mandos", which was not included in the Silmarillion. Does anybody know anything more about this matter? What is this prophecy about? (I'm sorry if this topic has already been discussed, but I am new here and didn't have time to check out all of the topics).

[Finduilas]

I don't know for sure, but there might be more information in some of the HoME (Not having read Shaping of Middle-Earth or War of the Jewels, I can't say for certain).

[Eruve]

There's a mention in BOLTII in connection with Turin and also a mention or two in Morgoth's Ring in connection with Menelvagor.

[Mithadan]

It goes something like this. When the world is old and the Valar tired of their tasks, Morgoth will re-enter Ea and battle shall be joined on the plains of Valinor. Earendil will come down to join the battle and Morgoth will ultimately be slain by Eonwe and Turin Turambar. Other versions or notes suggest that Beren and/or Tulkas will assist. Then Feanor will return from Mandos and the Silmarilli returned from their long homes in earth, sea and air. Feanor (or Yavanna) will unlock the Silmarilli and release their light and Yavanna will bring the trees back to life. This post probably joins concepts from various different versions of the tale, found in HoME. There is a long and acrimonious thread on this at xenite called something like "Were Sauron and Morgoth Buddies?" It contains a long and somewhat unpleasant argument concerning whether JRRT had rejected this concept.

[Saulotus]

Be fair here.

Summary of argument:

One person believed the term is equal to the concept and was abandoned.
One person believed the term was dropped but that the concept was continued.
There seemed to be a mis-sommunication somewhere along the way.

The acrimony resulted from that defect.

I won't touch on any of the other points.

[Mithadan]

Not pointing fingers, mellon. Point in fact, there are threads on other boards which are critical of the argument style of the guy you debated. He's never been anything other than respectful to me so I hold no personal opinion. On the other hand, I don't post there much. I prefer discussion to adversarial debate, the latter which sometimes arises there. BTW, I think that the source of the dispute was failure to define a key term, "canon". Your viewpoints differed drastically because you possess markedly different opinions on what the canon is.

Anyway, I am being fair. Good points were raised all around but got obscured by the heated discussion. I happen to feel that JRRT did not outright reject the "final battle" concept -- it appears too frequently even in his later works. But his final conception of it is not clear.

[Saulotus]

Noted.

As I said, there seemed to be mis-communication.

Last Battle (Dagor Dagorath) was the topic of my effort, while Second Prophecy was the other.
Therein lay the unresolved mis-communication.

Discussion is to be desired. Yup.

[Finduilas]

There was a short discussion of this on my board. (It started out as a trivia question and developed from there)

[Gilthalion]

Ummm. Rather than make me go look for the thread in question (and read a lot of arguing, too), is there more pertinent information that might be, uhm, replicated here?

Signed,

THE LAZY HOBBIT :)

This is a fascinating notion! It fits in with a Ragnarok kind of thing? Huh? huh? huh? Are there any juicy details and tidbits, any extant descriptions? Gory details? Huh? Huh? Huh?

I'd like to see a Michael Martinez essay on this one!

[Finduilas]

No real arguing on my board yet.
The link to the "thread/message" is pub8.ezboard.com/ffinduil...ID=6.topic (http://pub8.ezboard.com/ffinduilasstolkiendiscussionthehistoryofmiddleeart hbooks.showMessage?topicID=6.topic)

[Gilthalion]

Thanks so much! That was a great discussion!

I had naturally wondered, due to Tolkien's Christianity, whether this final battle might not have been equally suggested by Armaggedon as well as Ragnarok.

Would it be fair to say that here, as in much of the rest of Tolkien's work, we see a mixture of the Judeo-Christian with the Norse?

[SarahStar]

Hello! I've been browsing through your boards---I have way too much work to do to get through enough of them to actually feel comfortable, unfortunately. Years of AOL message boards have left me somewhat battle-scarred and so I am usually exceptionally cautious about posting on new boards. However, well, this is sort of my "pet topic" in the Tolkien world, so I just had to step in.

(A similar argument persuaded my to actually post en français on a French message board a while back. Can you believe they only have the first 2 or 3 HoME books published yet? ::shudders:: It was awful. They were desperately curious and the information they needed just wasn't available to them.)

I very much enjoyed reading all of your posts, as some of this information is new to me. (I don't have access to the later HoME books, unfortnately. ::sigh:: ) However, you seem to have left out the best reference to the Dagor Dagorath. It's in the fourth book, The History of Middle Earth, and I'm borrowing this from GreenBooks.TheOneRing.net (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/122099.html#2ndprophecy).

(This is from section 19. I don't have the book, so don't quote me on that, though.)
"After the triumph of the Gods, Earendel sailed still in the seas of heaven, but the Sun scorched him and the Moon hunted him in the sky . . . Then the Valar drew his white ship Wingelot over the land of Valinor, and they filled it with radiance and hallowed it, and launched it through the Door of Night. And long Earendel set sail into the starless vast, Elwing at his side, the Silmaril upon his brow, voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star. And ever and anon he returns and shines behind the courses of the Sun and Moon above the ramparts of the Gods, brighter than all other stars, the mariner of the sky, keeping watch against Morgoth upon the confines of the world. Thus shall he sail until he sees the Last Battle fought upon the plains of Valinor.
"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged.
"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendil shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield their fire to rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods."

If someone else has mentioned this already, and I just missed it because my brain is so completely fried, please forgive me.

[Hobbit Hood]

wow!