Dior, da man

[Fat middle]

As you know, Dior Eluchil was the son of Beren and Luthien and hence Heir of Elwe Thingol (that's what Eluchil means, i guess).

Was him an elf or a man? i have always thought he was an elf. The Heir of Thingol has to be an elf, otherwise the king would go mad. But lately i've been recalling on some signs that seems to point in the opposite direction:

-He's a son of two mortals, since he was born after Beren & Luhien came back from Mandos.
-He's married to soon for an elf since he died at about 30 having had a daughter already.
-It's never mentioned that he had to choose his destiny, but if he had been a half-elven he would have to (at least when he arrived to Mandos somebody should ask him where would he want to rest for the eternity <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"> )

anyway, Elwing would still being a half-elven since his mother was an elf though his father was a mortal.

some light over there? :)

[Eruve]

I'm pretty sure Dior was mortal, mostly for the reason you gave: he was the son of two mortals. The choice business didn't come in until Earendil went to Valinor.

[Fat middle]

however i'm not to sure of that. i've consulted Sil. and seen that right after Dior is first mentioned it is said that no mortal saw again Beren & Luthien after their return. Dior lived with them, and he wasn't blind ;)

besides, several times in the books Tolkiens lists the unions between mortals and elfs (B&L, T&I and afterwards A&A). but the union between Dior & Nimloth is never mentioned in this context.

[Syntia]

The first half-elves was Earendil
before that either elves or human

but for Dior i can't say
i'll have to read the silmarilion soon

[Eruve]

The three unions of Elves and Men is inconsistent anyway. Prince Imrahil's Elvish ancestor isn't included, either. There's a bit in UT about her: her name was Mithrellas and she was one of Nimrodel's maidens.

Could the bit about never being seen by mortal again be poetic and not meant to be taken literally?

[Xivigg]

With porfessor Tolkien everything is possible ;)

[Elanor]

Who says anything has to be consistent? I don't like to take everything Tolkien says as official. Sometimes he's telling things through the eyes of later lore-scholars or storytellers, or just rumors. The "facts" could have been very different from the stories. :lol: Just look at the Beren & Tinuviel story with all the cats and dogs, the one that says "Beren was a gnome". It's nice to speculate, though, and I personally think Dior was an unofficial half-elf, from a time when lots of things were unofficial. It was only later that the elves got all worked up about being "high" or "dark" or "half" or whatever.

[Fat middle]

o yes, an unofficial half-elf, i see...

I'm sorry, Dior, you cannot enter here. You must go to the Unofficial Mandos Site ;)

[Grand Admiral Reese]

How's this: He was the only Half-elf with two mortal parents.

[Tar Elenion]

Dior is called the first of the Pereldar (half-Elves).
By the 'Judgement of Manwe' Dior, it seems, would be accounted as a mortal (any with mortal blood are mortal unless granted other Doom, no other Doom is known to have been granted).
Though Luthien was allowed to choose the fate of Men (her spirit was allowed to seek 'elsewhither') this did not change her 'genetic make-up'. She was still half Elda, half Maia.

[Finduilas]

Actually its Peredhil (plurarl) and Peredhel (at least according to my copy of the Silm).

[Tar Elenion]

Peredhil = Sindarin
Pereldar = Quenya
"Earendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Luthien Tinuviel daughter of King Elu Thingol."
See PoME, the Shibboleth of Feanor.

[Finduilas]

Ok. Obviously I didn't go looking far enough. (unless something jumps out from memory, I tend to ignore HoME most of the time (finding something in that series is almost impossible most of the time)). Sorry to cause trouble.

[X Rogue]

I think he was an elf. I don't think he had to make a choice, but that it was decided for him by Eru. He was the first case after all. My reasoning is that Nimloth would not have married him if his status was in doubt. And if Dior had been Mortal, it would have been recorded as the 2nd marriage of elves and men, instead of being spoken of as being usual as it was. Second, Thingol's death made Dior King of Doriath, and the elves there would have selected a new *elven* king rather than have a mortal king, Thingols' grandson or no.
Thirdly there are examples of heredity. The only surviving child of Dior and Nimloth was Elwing, who was required to choose and became an elf. The offspring of her marriage to Earendil were the twins, Elros and Elrond. Elros became mortal, and his children were mortal, having no choice. Elrond's offspring were counted as Peredhil, since their father was, in spite of Celebrian being a full elf. Arwen chose to be mortal, and her children were human in spite of their mother's ancestry.Therefore, logic dictates that Dior must have been elf and immortal, or Elwing would have had no choice to make. Just a case of inconsistency in the Silmarillion, and the fact that Dior was the first such child. *ching**ching*

[Eruve]

If Dior were considered an Elf, Elwing would also have been an Elf, not a half-Elf, and therefore she would have had no choice.
The reason Elros' children no longer had a choice is because Elros chose mortality. Death is Eru's gift to men and cannot be revoked. Death is part of man's fate and his make-up and that cannot be changed. So once Elros chose, he chose for all his descendants as well.
The reason Dior's and Nimloth's marriage may have been left out of the "official" count of three unions of Elves and Men is because this figure of three is in itself inconsistant. As I mentioned above, it does not take into account Prince Imrahil's Elven ancestor.

[Tar Elenion]

As Eruve has put it. But also note that Dior was not an Elf or a Man. He was a Peredhel who wed an Elf. Note that in Arwen's case she is a Peredhel who weds a Man.(And personally I find it inconsistant that the Marriage of Arwen and Aragorn is named as one of the '3'. After all Arwen was not an Elf. She was Peredhel and thus between the two races, though longaevus, she still had a choice to make).

Also the Elves don't seem to have had a great problem with mortals (or Half-Elves) ruling them. Points in case. Turin in Nargothrond essentially ruled it. Tuor was the ruler of the Gondolindrim after the Fall. After Tuor took ship, Earendil ruled in Arvernien. Elwing seems to have ruled the remnants of the Doriathrim.

[Michael Martinez]

Technically, the "three unions" were of the Eldar and the Edain. And I believe that as a Peredhil, Dior was not considered to be of the Edain.

[adanedhel]

Actually, the answer to the question is in the chapter "Of the Ruin of Doriath" in the Silmarillion.

"Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamir; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of THREEFOLD RACE: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm." (caps are mine)

[Michael Martinez]

Unfortunately, "Of the Ruin of Doriath" is almost completely without any basis in the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. Christopher Tolkien wrote this chapter, with a little help from Guy Gavriel Kay.

Christopher's opinion, of course, should carry at least as much weight as anyone else's, but he has since repudiated the chapter without offering any comment on the Dior situation.

[adanedhel]

Even so, the logic that spawned the original conclusion seems sound. If my father's mother and father are from Germany, then he is German. If my mother's mother is from Ireland and her father is from Spain, she is Irish and Spanish. That makes me Irish/Spanish/German....It MAY make Dior Eldar/Edain/Maia...

[Gilthalion]

We are having similar problems with the United States Census.

[adanedhel]

LOL...I know, I think the three of me may get Illinois an extra U.S. Rep.