Olorin in First and Second ages.. Any thoughts

[The Westward Road]

I posted this in the barrow downs but wanted to hear your opinons on it


"In the Simarillion, more specifically the valaquenta, there is a section called "Of the
Maiar."
It tells us the story of Olorin learning pity and patience..etc, but it also says, "But
of Olorin that tale (the QS) does not speak; for though he loved the elves, he
walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know
whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put in their
hearts." It then goes on to describe his role as the kindler of hearts during the third
age and the War of the Ring. I love this paticular passage because it shows Olorin
fighting the darkness long before he took up the guise of Gandalf and the mission of
the Istari. I know this might be a add on by CT, but I feel this really might be
JRRT's real description of Olorin.
I think it would be fun to speculate when and where Olorin might have been giving
fair visions and wisdom to the eldar of the first and second ages. Could he have
been in Idrhils group fleeing Gondolin, or in any of the Battles of Bereiland. I could
speculate forever. "

The Westward Road

[juntel]

I haven't read the posthumous books edited by C. Tolkien from LostTales I&II and on...

I thought that maybe JRR had mentioned it in his notes and found themselves in these other books...

Well, is he?

[Eruve]

I don't know whether or not the idea of Olorin inspiring the Eldar was an addition by CT or not, but I don't think the idea is inconsistant with everything else. There is a note on the name Olorin in UT (essay on the Istari) which mentions the name is in High-Elven and so must have been given by the Eldar in Valinor. It contains the element olo-s which is often translated "dream" but has wider implications of memory and imagination which, when combined, gave one a clear vision "in the mind, of things not physically present at the body's situation. But not only an idea, but to a full clothing of this in paritcular form and detail." So given this name, the bit about inspiring the Elves makes sense.

I like to think Olorin must have hung around Elrond and Gil-Galad in the Second Age. Maybe he "inspired" Gil-Galad not to let Annatar into Lindon. Assuming Olorin came to Lindon clothed as one of the Eldar and that Elrond knew him, I wonder if, when Olorin showed up as Mithrandir, Elrond recognized him at some point during the Third Age.

[The Westward Road]

Maybe Olorin was in Doriath and befriended Cirdan thus Cirdan would also give the Ring of Fire to him out of friendship as well as his forsight of Olorin's future labors

[andustar]

since Galadriel was alive in Valinor long before melkor marred it, maybe she met Olorin? not that likely as he prefered not to be seen, but maybe...? and then when she saw him as Gandalf she would know who it was as Cirdan had told her that the Istari came from over the sea :)
she could have guessed. and if not, she would find out when the last ship arrived to valinor :)

[Loopy]

I feel certain that Elrond and Galadriel would have met Olorin, and then recognized him in Gandalf. It has been a while since I read LOTR, so I don't remember the exact words, but at the end of the book when they are journeying back to the Shire, there was that scene that described Galadriel Elrond and Gandalf sitting around the fire barely moving, but saying so much with their eyes, like very old friends.

(how's that for a run-on sentence?)

[Finduilas]

The quote is
RK Page 263 (at any rate it's in Many Partings):
They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit togetherunder the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seen to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

[Loopy]

Ah, thank you Finduilas! :)
That is such a beautiful passage.

[Finduilas]

It is both sorrowful yet full of hope for the days to come.

[Gilthalion]

I think it's alright to speculate that Galadriel and Cirdan "knew" Olorin in some way. That was probably good enough for Elrond. Also, as wearers of the other two rings, Galadriel and Elrond might have known much of Gandalf/Olorin that we can only guess at.

We know not only of the aforementioned mental connections between these Eldar and this Maia, but there is another:

Galadriel:
"Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desired to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me."

This leads me to believe that, at least at some definable distance, the Elven Rings enhanced their telepathic faculty.

Gandalf, himself, often stood and would gaze long into the distance, seeing somehow and having knowledge of remote things, without a palantir to aid him. Sauron could obviously do the same, in far greater measure, using the palantir.

Gandalf, lying weakened after defeating the Balrog, nonetheless perceived Frodo when he put on the One Ring upon Amon Hen.

Perhaps the magical devices were thus engaged as the vehicles for each of these high beings to press their will upon Frodo, who was balanced between them. Sauron may have thus been defeated in this context, in part, by the very link between the Rings of Power that he created.

Certainly the Elves who wore the Rings, and knew well how to use them, would have well perceived Gandalf as Olorin, even more so than the average Eldar from Valinor. Recall that when Cirdan perceived Olorin, he was wearing a Ring (which he consequently gave Gandalf).

[lindil]

Excellent points Gilthalion.
I think however that unless Galadriel had known Olorin well , she may not have known who Gandalf was in Middle-Earth although she must have figured out the Istari were Maia pretty early on.The Maia could choose any # of ways of appearing in Valinor and old men w/ staffs was not too likely to be high on the list.IMO.

[Michael Martinez]

For what it's worth, the "Valaquenta" is virtually pure J.R.R. Tolkien material.

It's possible that Galadriel knew Olorin in her youth, or at least knew of him. And he had plenty of time before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth to visit the Sindar and other Elves.

He could also have visited Middle-earth in the Second Age, but I think there are some historical problems if he is projected too far into the age. That is, by the time of the War of the Elves and Sauron, I don't believe the Valar were likely to be sending Maiar to Middle-earth.

Of course, there is that late Glorfindel tradition which has him returning to Middle-earth as Gandalf's companion, but that really isn't consistent with LOTR.

[Sephiroth9611]

I don't think Olorin visited Middle-earth during the First or Second Ages. When Tolkien wrote of Olorin walking among the Eldar, I think he was referring to the Elves of Valinor. In the "Istari" essay, when Manwe questions Olorin on going to Middle-earth, he expresses fear of Sauron. I doubt that if he was afraid of Sauron, Olorin would have gone to the Great Lands on his own without the promptings of Manwe himself.

[Eruve]

Perhaps, but walking "unclothed" (ie. in a body) to inspire others and the role Olorin took on as Gandalf (in more direct confrontation of Sauron, and knowing he wouldn't be able to use all his powers and thus be more vulnerable) are two different things.

[Finrod Felagund]

Well Olorin spent some time with Nienna learning pity and was the wisest of the Maiar.
He also seemed to journey beacuse in the Unfinished tales in the Istari essay it mentions Olorin coming in wearing grey after a journey.

[Ñólendil]

But the Valaquenta states that Olórin "took pity on their sorrows", in reference to the Children of Ilúvatar. If "their" is meant to refer to the Elves of Aman only, then it was during the dark days of the Rebellion I guess, for it is I imagine difficult to be sorrowful in the Blessed Realm. I think Olórin actually visited Middle-earth many times.

This is a good place to share a quote I came across in Morgoth's Ring. It's from one of J. R. R. Tolkien's Valaquenta texts. Christopher Tolkien said it was omitted from The Silmarillion by accident. It is about Gandalf: He was humble in the Land of the Blessed; and in Middle-earth he sought no renown. His triumph was in the uprising of the fallen, and his joy was in the renewal of hope.

[Findegil]

Of course, there is that late Glorfindel tradition which has him returning to Middle-earth as Gandalf's companion, but that really isn't consistent with LOTR.

I can't agree with that.
At first: Tolkien says in that essays that Glorfindel had come as help for Gil-galad in the second age. That is of course not fully consistent with The Lord of the Rings, because he accompanied the two blue wizards (but remember that we know out of the The Lord of the Rings only that they existed all the rest of our knowledge is out of posthumous edited books). But JRR Tolkiens first idea that he was a companion of Gandalf was more consistent with The Lord of the Rings.
Secondly: In The History of Middle-Earth volume 6: The Return of the Shadow you can read in draft for the story at Rivendell:
Story of Gilgalad told by Elrond? Who is Trotter? Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.
That shows at least that there was a possibility that the Glorfindel of Rivendell was one and the same person that had died in the high pass of Cristhorn.

Regrads
Findegil

[Wulažg]

I got a cool book 'Unfinished Tales of Nœmenor and Middle-Earth' which I hope isn't too corrupted that has a really cool section on the Istari. Apparently in at least one version C’rdan gave him the ring as soon as he arrived on Middle Earth. One question is though, How far in his travels did he go?

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Wulazg! How do you make that diacritic above the "z" in your name?

Unfinished Tales is a good find, treasure it. Surely you noticed it's published by Christopher Tolkien, and the writings are his father's?

That CÃ*rdan gave Gandalf Narya when the Wizard first arrived in the Third Age is what is also said in the Appendices to the Lord of the Rings.

According to Tolkien Gandalf never traveled into the far East or South, always remaining in the Northwest.

[Elfhelm]

I think that's pure JRRT there, not CT, in the Valaquenta. Look at this passage from LotR, the Seige of Gondor:
Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again and the winged shadows pass from memory.