The Seven Fathers of the Dwarves

[Bullroarer]

What were their names? I know Durin is one of them.....





Wait a minute!Doc, Happy, Sleepy, Grumpy, Dopey, Sneezy, Bashful! :p

[etherealunicorn]

:) works for me :)
Seriously though, I don't know that we were ever told any details about the Seven Fathers, other than that Durin was the eldest. If I had to guess, I would assume that two more of them were to be found at Belegost and Nogrod. Perhaps that was one area that Tolkien did not have time to get back to, considering the wealth of material that he did put on paper.

[Darth Tater]

Blasphemy Bullroarer! I sentence you to 50 lashes with the e-cat of nine tails!

[etherealunicorn]

Here, give me that whip! Take this, you dog! ;) :)

[Bullroarer]

*Snap*
OWWWWW
*Snap*
OWOWOWOWOWWOWOWOWOW
*Snap*
OWIE!!!!!!!
*Snap*
Pain worse...
*Snap*
than
*Snap*
RINGWRAITHS!!!!!
*Snap*
.................................................. .....



The rest of this scene has been cut do to gory results and blah, blah, blah. We now will show you Teletubbies, have a nice day!

[bmilder]

Recall that some of the Dwarves on the Erebor trip with Thorin were not all of Durin's line. A few were mentioned as "distant kinsmen of Thorin" and some were of an entirely different line. I guess those were from a different Father.

[Mresone]

Heya. New poster here. Just saw this board featured on the EZboard front page. While it has been some time since I have read any of Tolkien's work, I can say that after having read The Silmarillion at least a dozen times from cover to cover (who here hasn't, right?), that I am relativey certain that the other six fathers were never named, although Belegost and Nogrod were in fact founded by 2 of the other fathers, as has been previously posted.

It was this fact that allowed Celebrimbor's folk to traffic freely with the dwarves of Moria, as Durin's folk took no part in the sack of Menengroth, toward the end of the first age, a deed that forever after sullied relations between dwarves and elves.

On a different note, I have a friend who wrote her senior thesis on why Tolkien should be considered one of the "classic" authors of western literature. I happen to agree. Glad to find a board dedicated to the Great One. :)

[anduin]

[thinks to herself]I'll give IP a chance to get this one.[/thinks to herself]

[anduin]

Time's up IP.

Welcome to the board Mrsone. I've noticed you have already made some nice contributions to the board. :)

[Bullroarer]

Answer to your question.
(Who here hasn't right?)

Well, I just started a little while ago, I'm only on chap. 20.

[Darth Tater]

I tried to read it when I was twelve and couldn't finish it, but I did read the whole thing recently and loved it

[Mresone]

Heh... perhaps I let my own love of the book cloud my judgement. It is Tolkien's best work, in my opinion. Difficult to read for a beginner, and I certainly don't recommend that it be read before the Hobbit or LOTR, it is still more than worth the effort.

[Darth Tater]

The Sil is wonderfull, but we must remember it's not really in the form Tolkien wanted it in.

[Lorco Books]

The Seven Fathers of dwarves may be spoken of in The Peoples of Middle-earth, I'm not sure, but what is spoken of in there for sure are the seven tribes that the Fathers came from. There were the Longbeards (Durin's folk), Firebeards, and Broadbeams of Western Middle-earth, and than there were the Blacklocks, Stonefoots, Ironfists and Stiffbeards of Eastern Middle-earth. It's important to remember that not all Longbeards are of the House of Durin, however.

[Michael Martinez]

The seven fathers are not named anywhere. "Durin" is just a translation of a title (which meant "king") into a Mannish tongue. The Longbeard Dwarves began the custom of taking "outer" names in Mannish languages, and they eventually developed a name-set (represented by all the Dwarf/Elf names Tolkien lifted from the Norse sagas) that was restricted to Dwarvish use (or, rather, fell out of use in the Mannish communities). Their original name for Durin was either lost or never revealed, so everyone just got used to calling him by the Mannish translation.

Of course, some people are quick to point out that "Ennyn Durin" is inscribed on the west-gate of Moria and is dated to around SA 750. True. Maybe it's a gaffe by Tolkien, and maybe by SA 750 the name "Durin" had become established among the Elves, Dwarves, and Men of the north. (Most people make a bigger fuss over "Aran Moria" -- why would the Dwarves accept the use of a pejorative name for their realm on the west-gate? -- I suggest it's because "Moria" had probably lost its pejorative sense by that time, since Sindarin was at the time the "common tongue" of the northwest of Middle-earth.)

The only actual Dwarvish name recorded for any of the Dwarf-kings is "Azaghal" of Belegost, and some people argue even this must have been an "outer" name (though still given in Khuzdul). I find that argument to be rather weak. I think Azaghal was ONE of his true names (like the Elves, the Dwarves seem to have taken the custom of collecting names, such as Dain Ironfoot, Thorin Oakenshield, etc.).

The clearest explanation of the Dwarven customs and naming conventions can be found in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH in the long essay titled "Dwarves and Men".

[Xivigg]

Hi this is what i found on the 7 Fathers of the dwarves

Note: the info is found in the Lords of Middle-earth.It's a gaming book made by ICE.
Not found in any Tolkien book but as it is say in the foreword

"This is an authorized secondary work."

So here i am

Durin I father of the Durin's house
Bavor Father of the second house
Dwalin father of the third house
Thrar father of the 4th house
Thelor father of the 5th house
Druin Father of Druin house
Barin father of the 7th house

As for the dwarvens kingdom

Khazad-dum, Moria (Durin)
Gabilgathol, Belegrod (Dwalin)
Tumunzahar, Negrod (Thrar)
Mablad (Bavor)
Namagaluz (Thelor)
Ruuriik (Druin)
Ruuriik (Barin) (It seam that the 2 last houses settle at the same place)

[Saulotus]

>>"This is an authorized secondary work."<<

Yes, from a company that has a license to produce merchandising products located in Berkeley CA based on it's allowed legal interpretation.
This company also collects revenues on licenses it grants to subsidiary companies.
Ralph Bakshi's LOTR movie, Iron Crown Enterprises, and U.S. Games systems are examples of such.
Warner Brothers also obtained a limited license from the Tolkien Estate, not Tolkien Enterprises.

The information is correct as far as I can see according to ICE gaming system MERP.
A licensed company effort from a licensed company.

[Tar Elenion]

In other words it is not from JRR Tolkien. It is made up by a gaming company. Similarly they give names to the Nazgul. But that also is not from Tolkien. ICE actually has a large number of errors in their MERP game (some forgivable others not).
Tar-Elenion

[Saulotus]

MERP is a fine game system (adding elements from Rolemaster is better).

I have like no problems with the game. Only the information incorrectly cited as TRUE and applicable to anything other than the game system itself.

Think of independant Star Trek novels applied to the Star Trek universe as a comparison.
We could discuss Starfleet Battles as another variation on this for further effect.
Just because they have Kirk, Spock and the ENTERPRISE don't mean they are like TRUE to the history of Star Trek. They are licensed fan-fiction and not held as canon or represented as such. For what they are; and in what capacity they serve, they are adequate. Try to apply them to canon and problems arise. In this example some people hold that like anything printed must be canon. That is their opinion. Most understand the significance of the novels as what they are: a licensed effort to generate revenue.

In the same way as the Trek novels, the ICE material is a self contained creation, and sould be respected as such.

[Tar Elenion]

I don't disagree and was an avid MERP player for a long time(and added various elemnts from Rolemaster into the MERP system (I felt that the MERP system was 'cleaner' and used that as the base to add in RM elements).
I do not think that people should use info from ICE and present it as some sort of Fact when discussing JRRT's Middle-earth (and I think you are saying this as well).

[Tar Elenion]

I don't disagree and was an avid MERP player for a long time(and added various elemnts from Rolemaster into the MERP system (I felt that the MERP system was 'cleaner' and used that as the base to add in RM elements).
I do not think that people should use info from ICE and present it as some sort of Fact when discussing JRRT's Middle-earth (and I think you are saying this as well).

Tar-Elenion

[Saulotus]

I am saying that yes. Hopefully in a way that makes some sense to others.

ICE has several aspects about it that are truly intriquing.
Exposition on cultures with attendant lifestyles and practices are a nice example of this.

This speculative work adds a flavor to the areas that is not touched upon directly by Tolkien.

Speculation is the key here, much as say the Star Trek novel PROBE, or Shatner's ongoing saga concerning Kirk takes information and expands upon it and creates a story. Perhaps Shatner is another example of Canon. His work is not taken as canon, even WITH his standing in the Star Trek universe.

There is nothing wrong with ICE material, as long as it remains known it IS ICE material.

I'm trying not to be harsh here, but this is a fundamental truth.

[Xivigg]

I carfully chose what to say and take every step so that you all know it was from ICE and not from Tolkien.

I only give the info i have stating were it come from.
Now you can take it or not.

By the way i'm looking for old ICE product now out of print especialy those who describe region.I already have lot of them but i want them all.If you have some and want to sell/trade them contact me.

[Tar Elenion]

Your emphasis of it being an '*authorized* secondary work' simply leads me into making statements emphasizing the fact that it is something other people made up. It is not Tolkien.
However no offence or slight was intended towards you personally.:)

Tar-Elenion

[easterlinge]

Azaghal was lord of Belegost in the First Age. Though I daresay he's just a descendent, not one of the Seven Fathers. But with any luck, like Durin whose heirs were mostly named Durin also, his ancestor may also be called Azaghal.

Where are the Mothers of the Dwarves anyhow? Did each Father take more than one wife?

[Inoldonil]

You mean the Seven Fathers' wives, or Dwarven mothers in general? Tolkien said in the Letters Aule created the first 13 Dwarves, and in a note ellaborates by saying he created the Seven Fathers and six of their wives (Durin was without a spouse). I'm wondering how in the world Durin ended up with descendents at all.

[easterlinge]

Maybe Durin married one of the other Six Fathers' daughters. Durin did wander around for a long time before meeting other Dwarves, perhaps long enough for a daughter to grow up. Given that Dwarves, like Elves, don't seem too keen on procreation, it must have taken ages to get a sizeable population.

I wonder what the maximum population of Dwarves ever achieved in Middle Earth was? The Elven population probably reached max in the First Age, although Morgoth probably brought it crashing down again after the Nirnaeth.