Túrin and Nienor

[Lalaith]

I'm really missing a thread about two of my favourite characters: Túrin and Nienor. Their story is just that gorgeous and romantic. I love it.
In the Book of Lost Tales it was written, that the both of them, after their death, were invited to live in Valinor.
What do you think? Are you for or against the love of the two sisters?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Turin was a girl!:eek: :eek: :p

Against. I'd much rather he falls in love with Finduilas. Damn Glaurung. And don't take the stuff from BoLT into the new Sil. legendarium. THe BoLT work is too old to be considred (apart from the FoG) part of the 'canon' and in line with the Sil and LOTR.Just like the early drafts of LOTR, (HoME volumes 6-9)

And, no they wouldn't have fallen in love, hence both of their suicides.

[Lalaith]

Oh, sorry, my mistake. Turin is a MAN. I meant between brother and sister.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I'm really missing a thread about two of my favourite characters: Túrin and Nienor. Their story is just that gorgeous and romantic. I love it.
In the Book of Lost Tales it was written, that the both of them, after their death, were invited to live in Valinor.
What do you think? Are you for or against the love of the two sisters? The BoLTs is the older mythology. As for the relationship between Turin and Nienor, I found nothing gorgeous or romantic about it. It was a terrible tragedy that should not and would not have happened but for the evils of Glaurung. Very sad.:(

[Lalaith]

The BoLTs is the older mythology. As for the relationship between Turin and Nienor, I found nothing gorgeous or romantic about it. It was a terrible tragedy that should not and would not have happened but for the evils of Glaurung. Very sad.

I know that BolT is actually too old to refer to, but I still love the story of Túrin and Nienor in the Silmarillion. I do think that it is romantic, because the fall in love with each other so deeply. But, you're right, it is as well very tragic and the question, wether they should be together or not teared me apart.
I mean they loved each other, so they should be together, but on the other hand they are brother and sister so it is only logical that they should not be together as husband and wife.
But there comes another question to my mind (it's to long ago to remember it exactly), but why has Nienor made suicide? Was it because of Túrins death (at least she thought he was dead) or was it because she was pregnant of her brother?

[Dúnedain]

Is this the story where the sister goes looking for her brother and then finds him, however there is a spell that doesn't let her recognize him, and then they wed. Then later on they find out they are siblings and she throws herself off a cliff and he impales himself or something like that???

[Sister Golden Hair]

After Glaurung released her from his spell and her memory was restored, and she realized that Turin was her brother and that she carried his child, Nienor leapt to her death.

[markedel]

What is FoG?

[Artanis]

The Fall of Gondolin, perhaps?

[Lalaith]

So has anybody here actually read BolT? I haven't meet many people who have read it!
And I don't think Túrin was a bad person, he actually did a very good job although this spell was on him.

[Melkor's significant othe]

I've read both BoLT 1& 2. They are an excellent read. Like the whole HoME series. (which I haven't yet finished....I got all the books as a present for Xmas!) The extra details you get concerning the Valar, the Battles of Beleriand and far longer narratives about the early elves/men encounters. Plus seeing how Sauron evolved from a prince of cats! Tiveldo. I thorughly recommend getting the BoLT for their wonderful stories. The account of the time and its' units (days,months,years) being created by the 3 wizards of Eru had me lost for words. Imagining Tulkas's 7 mighty people hauling the cables that controlled the passing years....fantastic!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes FoG is the Fall of Gondolin. was there love really 'pure' or 'sweet'? Turin was under a curse and the spell of Glaurung, which clearly miffed him up, and Nienor was also under a spell of Glaurung. I think it was fate more then anything else. Turin and Finduilas would have expressed the fact that they had feelings for each other (though it was obvious to all) if it wasn't for Melkor's curse, which was pretty much screwing up Turin's life.

[Falagar]

I love FoG in BoLT2. It's a really good story, and I liked it much better than that shortend story in the Silm.

[Lalaith]

was there love really 'pure' or 'sweet'? Turin was under a curse and the spell of Glaurung, which clearly miffed him up, and Nienor was also under a spell of Glaurung. I think it was fate more then anything else.

I still think that their love was pure and sweet. Although the spell was on both of them, they were themselves and not another person and so they fell in love with the character of the other. That has nothing to do with a spell (in my opinion). I mean, the spell could not change their personality, only their luck.
But I think it is possible that it was fate that they fall in love. Nobody knows what the Valar or even Iluvatar want to achieve with something.

[Lalaith]

I've read both BoLT 1& 2. They are an excellent read. Like the whole HoME series.

I'm just finishing BoLT 2. I think I'll have to read the 10 other late published books, but I don't think that they are available in german.
What I wanted to ask is: Are the 10 other books, older stories in the style of BoLT or are they more current like LotR?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I still think that their love was pure and sweet. Although the spell was on both of them, they were themselves and not another person and so they fell in love with the character of the other. That has nothing to do with a spell (in my opinion). I mean, the spell could not change their personality, only their luck.
But I think it is possible that it was fate that they fall in love. Nobody knows what the Valar or even Iluvatar want to achieve with something. Don't forget that at the time that this took place, Hurin was being held captive by Morgoth and his kin was under a curse. Some events that happened to Turin I think happened because of his pride, others happened because of this curse and was completely due to Morgoth and his servants.

[BeardofPants]

No, I don't think their love was pure and sweet. They were both - as SGH said - under the curse of the house of Hurin. How can their love be pure, if they were blinded? Turin should have ended up with Finduilas.

And yes, I've read BoLT 1 and 2.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I still think that their love was pure and sweet. Although the spell was on both of them, they were themselves and not another person and so they fell in love with the character of the other. That has nothing to do with a spell (in my opinion). I mean, the spell could not change their personality, only their luck.
But I think it is possible that it was fate that they fall in love. Nobody knows what the Valar or even Iluvatar want to achieve with something.

Falling in love with your judgement clouded and whislt you are under a curse, whilst the creator of all evil laughs at your incestous antics, is not true love. In my opinion. Remember Gwindor's dying words to Turin, that if he doesn't save Finduilas, then his doom (the curse) will not fail to find him. A message form Eru, possibly?

[Lalaith]

Don't forget that at the time that this took place, Hurin was being held captive by Morgoth and his kin was under a curse. Some events that happened to Turin I think happened because of his pride, others happened because of this curse and was completely due to Morgoth and his servants.

Okay, first, yeah maybe some things happened because of Túrins pride (the falling of Nargothrond), but I also think that most of the fatal pride can be traced back to Morgoth's spell.
But I still believe, that in some way they were able to think free and that their minds were not completely "blacked".
I mean, Túrin always knew that there was something wrong with him and that his unlucky fate was unnatural and Nienor felt that too, deep in her heart.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Okay, first, yeah maybe some things happened because of Túrins pride (the falling of Nargothrond), but I also think that most of the fatal pride can be traced back to Morgoth's spell.
But I still believe, that in some way they were able to think free and that their minds were not completely "blacked".
I mean, Túrin always knew that there was something wrong with him and that his unlucky fate was unnatural and Nienor felt that too, deep in her heart. When I refered to Turin's pride, I was refering to the incident surrounding the death of Searos and his stubborness to return to Doriath for one. He would hold some blame for the fall of Nargothrond, but much of that goes to that idiot Orodreth, and some could be attributed to the Curse of Hurin.

As for this incestuous relationship, again, they were not in their right minds until they were released from the spell of the dragon, which is what lead to their deaths. Think about it. If they were truly in love with one another, then why would they feel the need to kill themselves once they realized they were brother and sister?

[Wayfarer]

Is this character from Alabama or Kentucky, do you think? ]: )

Lalaith, you don't have any siblings of your own do you? Please say no.

Their relationship was the result of Glaurungs (and ultimately Morgoths) depraved nature. He certainly found it entertaining. I don't. There was no real romance involved.

[Lalaith]

for this incestuous relationship, again, they were not in their right minds until they were released from the spell of the dragon, which is what lead to their deaths. Think about it. If they were truly in love with one another, then why would they feel the need to kill themselves once they realized they were brother and sister?

Okay, maybe you're right. I think they felt love like you feel for you beloved brother/sister and then they felt this strange thing they called love.
But I think in some way their minds were independent and they loved each other really from the heart.
And I think that they killed each other, when they knew that they were brother and sister, because in normal social circumstances it is impossible that brother and sister feel more for each other. The thought of sleeping with the brother must be very strange and it was again impossible to do that with your brother and have even children with him/her.
I guess, they wanted to be together, because they loved each other, but they knew as brother and sister this could not work and for that reason they killed themselves.

[Lalaith]

Lalaith, you don't have any siblings of your own do you? Please say no.

I have to disapoint you, I have siblings. Okay, actually I only have one sister, but I know lot's of boys who are like brothers to me and I kind of love them, but more than that will never be.

And this discussion goes deeper than I thought. Is there nobody out there who likes the story of the two of them? (Actually I talked to a few people who found it sweet, but not here).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Let us make a compromise of sorts. Let's say that while they were under the spell of the dragon, they were truly in love, but once the spell was broken, they were truly devistated and revolted by what they had done and with who. Does that sound reasonable?

[congressmn]

I think i like the story lalaith. and i know what u mean.

[congressmn]

yes very sister golden hair.
absolutely i agree with u.
quite a superb solution

[Sister Golden Hair]

And this discussion goes deeper than I thought. Is there nobody out there who likes the story of the two of them? (Actually I talked to a few people who found it sweet, but not here).I love the story. I just don't find it to be romantic. It is tragic and sad.

[Lalaith]

Let us make a compromise of sorts. Let's say that while they were under the spell of the dragon, they were truly in love, but once the spell was broken, they were truly devistated and revolted by what they had done and with who. Does that sound reasonable?

I was just thinking: Will there never be a solution between us, but now this comprimise.
Okay, that sounds good for me and ... I think each has to decide for her/himself if he finds the love story romantic or cute or disgusting or whatever.
So, I have to ask you, Sister Golden Hair, which ARDA story do you think is really romantic (say Faramir and Eowyn and we'll have a real comprimise).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I was just thinking: Will there never be a solution between us, but now this comprimise.
Okay, that sounds good for me and ... I think each has to decide for her/himself if he finds the love story romantic or cute or disgusting or whatever.
So, I have to ask you, Sister Golden Hair, which ARDA story do you think is really romantic (say Faramir and Eowyn and we'll have a real comprimise). Darn! Now there we will just agree to disagree. I think the most romantic story of all is Beren and Luthien.:)

[Wayfarer]

Definitely.

[Lalaith]

. I think the most romantic story of all is Beren and Luthien

God, I forgot about Beren and Luthien. My mistake, but maybe it is because I've read LotR more often than the Silmarillion (and the unfinished tales), so I I know the story of Faramir and Eowyn better than the one of Beren and Luthien. But you're right, this story is really romantic, too.
And I'm more concerned about Faramir and Eowyn, because I wrote a peom about the two of them (just for fun, during school lessons).
But still, Beren and Luthien rock!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Another romantic but sad love story is the love between Andreth and Aegnor, especially since it was the only love involving a male Elf and a Human female.

[Lalaith]

Another romantic but sad love story is the love between Andreth and Aegnor, especially since it was the only love involving a male Elf and a Human female.

Unfortunately I have to tell that I have no idea what this story is about. The names sound familiar to me, but I can't remember the story. Where is it written? Can you tell me a little bit of it, please.
And .... Sister Golden Hair .... it sounds like you know Tolkiens world quite good. That's cool. I wanna reach that too, by reading his books again and again
Quite cool now we found a common baseline.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Unfortunately I have to tell that I have no idea what this story is about. The names sound familiar to me, but I can't remember the story. Where is it written? Can you tell me a little bit of it, please.
And .... Sister Golden Hair .... it sounds like you know Tolkiens world quite good. That's cool. I wanna reach that too, by reading his books again and again
Quite cool now we found a common baseline. Thank you Lalaith. I know a little about Tolkien's world after reading it for some thrty years. Not as much as many others know.:)

The story of Aegnor and Andreth is in volume 10, Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, The Histories of Middle-earth Series.

Andreth was a wise woman that fell in love with Aegnor, Finrod and Galadriel's youngest brother. Aegnor loved Andreth also, but turned away because of a few things really. He would not forsake the war and his kin for her, and he knew that any marriage with a mortal would only be for some high purpose of doom and would be bitter to the end. Also, he could not bear to see her get old and die. The strange thing is that he died before her, but he refused to return to life because he could not bear to live in the world without her once she died. Also in his life, he would never take a bride of his own kin, because he loved her so much. It is a great story.

There is a thread in the Middle-earth forum "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" with a large quote done by Nolendil out of this story, that you may want to go read. It will give you some idea of what is going on in this sad relationship. This story is actually a lengthy debate that takes place between Finrod Felagund and Andreth.

If you notice my sig. it is from that story.

[Dúnedain]

I assume I was right about this story, judging by the posts from everyone then :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Lalaith, I have found that part of the story that Nolendil posted. I am adding a little more to it because it is at the end of the story. I also have to do it in two post to get it all in.

'I have not asked for comfort,' said Andreth. 'For what do I need it?'

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanár, the Sharp-Flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'

'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?'

'Because we were so made, close kin,' said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, we are not lordly in this, but pitiful . That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'

'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. '[i]Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár the Sharp-Flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the Northwind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the other by themselves -- until they learn, as do few. This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death -- or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart rules, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel -- for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!'

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side and upheld thee. Then pity thou woudst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair -- ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the Sharp Flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourself scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. "Wither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests ere Night comes."

"Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need."

I will tell him," said Finrod. "But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did thee this hurt."

But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

[Lalaith]

Thank you, sister golden hair.
I'll read it as soon as I have enough time to read it carefully (as english is not my first language it will take me some time).
I plan to read the 12 late published books - the History of Middle-earth series and actually I've already read The Book of Lost tales I and II. But unfortunately I think that they are not available in german so I have to read them in english. That will be tough.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Thank you, sister golden hair.
I'll read it as soon as I have enough time to read it carefully (as english is not my first language it will take me some time).
I plan to read the 12 late published books - the History of Middle-earth series and actually I've already read The Book of Lost tales I and II. But unfortunately I think that they are not available in german so I have to read them in english. That will be tough. Seems to me that you do very well with English. I guarentee you that your abilities with English are far better than my abillity to read or speak German. I hated taking foriegn language in school. I had four years of French, and flunked out.:(

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Turin and Finduilas and Aegnor and Andreth were beautiful, yet tragic love stories as well.

[Lalaith]

I hated taking foriegn language in school. I had four years of French, and flunked out.

We are learning English and Spanish in school. I get along with English quite well, but Spanish is the absolute horror. On Friday we are writing a test and I have absolutely no clue. I just don't understand these damn tenses. When I think of Spanish English seems so easy to me, although I have my difficulties.
Did you notice that our topic totally fits into the Thread "Túrin and Nienor".

[Sister Golden Hair]

Good luck on your test Friday.:)

Do try to read the portion of the Athrabeth I posted. It is very beautiful. It is just one of many failed love affairs that Tolkien wrote about. Tragic, sad, but written so beautifully.

[Lalaith]

I have a question concerning the "history of middle-earth"-row. Are that books in the style of the Books of Lost tales (I know they are part of this row) or are they more actual like the Silmarillion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I have a question concerning the "history of middle-earth"-row. Are that books in the style of the Books of Lost tales (I know they are part of this row) or are they more actual like the Silmarillion. I would have to say neither, because they focus on different ages and events. Like volumes 10 and 11 are the Later Quenta Silmarillion. In these two books are some notes of JRR's along with commentary from Christopher. He makes corrections to mistakes made in the published Silmarillion and so forth. They also contain Laws and Customs of the Eldar, The Annals of Aman, The Grey Annals, Myths Transformed, and the Athrabeth. You have then four Volumes that surround events and the writing of the LotRs. There are also essays. Volume 3 is the Lays of Beleriand, which contains the Lay of Leithien told in its intirety. The Lays of Hurin, notes, and commentary. There is the volume of Shaping of Middle- earth, and the last volume, the Peoples of Middle-earth which is pretty self explanatory, also containing notes and commentary.

[Lalaith]

Thank you, I'm really looking forward to reading these books as I loved the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales. I think I'll get them on my birthday.
And .... on the weekend I'll finally have time to read the text.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's Great.:)

[Lalaith]

Is in any of these books the Story of Nienor and Túrin expanded. Or do they include some more information about the fate of the men if they die?

[BeardofPants]

One of the lays in HoME 3 covers the story of the children of Hurin. Plus, there is the further development of the stories in 4 and 5.

[Lalaith]

One of the lays in HoME 3 covers the story of the children of Hurin. Plus, there is the further development of the stories in 4 and 5.

Thank you, now I really can't wait to get this books.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Or do they include some more information about the fate of the men if they die?Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth is loaded with discussion on the fate, nature and gift of Men, and the differences in this between them and the Elves.

[Lalaith]

I love that discussion. But I'm not quite sure if I see death as a gift.

[BeardofPants]

It is, though. Imagine being bound to the circles of the world through all the ages, being doomed to fade. I'll take death, thanks.

[Earniel]

Ditto, just let them wait a little bit longer for giving me that gift, okay? About 60 or 70 years would be nice. :rolleyes:

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I love that discussion. But I'm not quite sure if I see death as a gift. The gift was to be able to leave the world after death. Elves can also die, but they are bound to the world and cannot escape.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I love that discussion. But I'm not quite sure if I see death as a gift. LOL! You sound like Andreth. That is exactly what that debate was about. It started out as a gift, but then became tainted by Morgoth.

[Lalaith]

I can be both, a gift and a torture. Think of living the perfect life and then you die and it is all over. And the other point: If the world is a place with only war and no peace, then death is really a gift.

[Lalaith]

Sister Golden Hair:
Finally I got to read this part of the story you posted. I is really cute, but sad. Is this old english? Sometimes I really had a hard time understanding it.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I can be both, a gift and a torture. Think of living the perfect life and then you die and it is all over. And the other point: If the world is a place with only war and no peace, then death is really a gift.
If you are very old, then there should be nothing better than to die after having lived (and still living?) the perfect life.

[Lalaith]

If you are very old, then there should be nothing better than to die after having lived (and still living?) the perfect life.

But if you don't become old?

[Jonathan]

If you don't die old, then death might be a problem...

[Lalaith]

Do elves become old?

[Falagar]

They become very old indeed. CÃ*rdan is even said to have a beard!

And here comes a question:
Would Fëanor have had a beard if he still lived?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Would Fëanor have had a beard if he still lived? Probably not. Wouldn't he be approx. the same age as Celeborn? While Cirdan is said to have been among the Elves who awoke at lake Cuivenen.

Lalaith, I just love your sig! :)

[Falagar]

Yes, it may be that only those who awoke at Cuivenen would have beard now...
But Fëanor was one of the first (if not the first!) Elf who was born after Cuivenen...

Anyway, his beard would probably burn down :D

[Artanis]

The disturbing picture of Feanor with a beard keeps popping up in my brain. Oh Falagar, why did you put that idea into my head?

BTW, have my e-mail disappeared into the garbage can again?

[Falagar]

No, I just don't check my e-mail very often (about once a day or so). I'll check it right away :)
(probably not very fun for the rest of the Mooters hearing us chatter... ;))

Edit: It was in the Junk again...Saved your new address :)

[Arien the Maia]

Does Tolkien ever hint at where men go when they die? I always assumed that they go to be with Iluvatar.

[Lalaith]

Lalaith, I just love your sig!

Thanks. Do you mean my signature, or am I wrong? Do you know where I have it?



Does Tolkien ever hint at where men go when they die? I always assumed that they go to be with Iluvatar.

Yeah, he kind of describes it but not very extensive. I don't know it exactly but I think they go out of world and then be there till the end of all days.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Thanks. Do you mean my signature, or am I wrong?Yes, I mean your signature. It makes me laugh because it is such a good wizardly reason for not being on time. :DOriginally posted by Lalaith
Do you know where I have it?Sorry, didn't understand that. :confused:

Arien: The spirits of Men are summoned to the halls of Mandos after death, and after some time they are free to leave the world, to what destination no one knows.

[Arien the Maia]

Arien: The spirits of Men are summoned to the halls of Mandos after death, and after some time they are free to leave the world, to what destination no one knows. [/B][/QUOTE]

I knew they were summoned to Mandos and then they leave the circles of the world from there...I guess I always concluded that since Iluvatar was beyond the circles of the world (said in the akallabeth) and that men go to a fate beyaond the circles of the world, then to Iluvatar is where they would go.

[Artanis]

Sorry, I misinterpreted your question. :)

I guess I always concluded that since Iluvatar was beyond the circles of the world (said in the akallabeth) and that men go to a fate beyaond the circles of the world, then to Iluvatar is where they would go.It is certainly a good assumption. That would truly be a gift to Men.

[Lalaith]

Sorry, didn't understand that.

Sorry, that was really bad english. What I meant was: Do you know where this text (my signature) is from? Who said it?
I guess you know it.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
Sorry, I misinterpreted your question. :)

It is certainly a good assumption. That would truly be a gift to Men.

Yes... it would!:D

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Originally posted by Falagar
Yes, it may be that only those who awoke at Cuivenen would have beard now...
But Fëanor was one of the first (if not the first!) Elf who was born after Cuivenen...

Anyway, his beard would probably burn down :D

Feanor was only the first Elf to be born after the journey from Cuiveien in the early legendarium.

[Lalaith]

Late, but still I remeber something about Cirdans beard. He was an exception. Only few elves do have beards. So I don't think that Feanor had a beard.

[Falagar]

Ok, to take another example, how about Finwë? Or perhaps, to take a person that is alive, Ingwë? Do you think he sits in Aman with a long beard?

Ok, this discussion got a little out of hand...:D

[Lalaith]

Ok, to take another example, how about Finwë? Or perhaps, to take a person that is alive, Ingwë? Do you think he sits in Aman with a long beard?
God, no. What a bad picture. I imagine elves always with shaved faces and pale. Just like Legolas has.


Ok, this discussion got a little out of hand...
The discussion got out of hand long time ago, but I don't mind. To come back to Túrin and Nienor.
Did Túrin have a beard or not? I don't remember.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
God, no. What a bad picture. I imagine elves always with shaved faces and pale. Just like Legolas has.



The discussion got out of hand long time ago, but I don't mind. To come back to Túrin and Nienor.
Did Túrin have a beard or not? I don't remember.

I always assume that all men usually have beards...I always picture the elves as "refined" and men as "ruggid" (spelling?:confused: ) :D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Sorry, that was really bad english. What I meant was: Do you know where this text (my signature) is from? Who said it?
I guess you know it. Yes. It is a wizardly saying :D
Sorry, OT again. :)

[Lalaith]

I always assume that all men usually have beards...I always picture the elves as "refined" and men as "ruggid" (spelling? )
Yeah, since I read again that Faramir had a beard I always think of him with this full black beard. And then I think of the movie version and then I'm totally confused with this mixture.
But I did not think of Túrin having a beard. I can't imaging how kissing a man with a beard is and Nienor kissed him.
Okay, that are two opposite statements. Faramir with beard can kiss Eowyn, but Túrin with beard could not kiss Nienor.

Yes. It is a wizardly saying
I think that the sentence of my signature fits in perfectly in my life and my character. I never come too late. I'm always on time.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Yeah, since I read again that Faramir had a beard I always think of him with this full black beard. Did Faramir had a beard? That was interesting, where did you read that? In the pictures of Faramir that I have seen, he has no beard.

Look at this picture, for example (if the picture won't show up, reload the page):
http://ew2.lysator.liu.se/loth/a/n/anastasea/eowynfaramir.jpg
(See how this picture fits with my signature) :D

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Yeah, since I read again that Faramir had a beard I always think of him with this full black beard. And then I think of the movie version and then I'm totally confused with this mixture.
But I did not think of Túrin having a beard. I can't imaging how kissing a man with a beard is and Nienor kissed him.
Okay, that are two opposite statements. Faramir with beard can kiss Eowyn, but Túrin with beard could not kiss Nienor.


I think that the sentence of my signature fits in perfectly in my life and my character. I never come too late. I'm always on time.

Ok, I guess the only men I think of that don't have beards are Beren...I don't know why he just doesn't...I guess Turin does to me because he seems to have way more agression in him...I guess I associate agression with being male:D
no offense guys!:D

[Finmandos12]

I never think of Turin or Tuor having a beard either.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Isn't this thread about Turin and Nienor and romances?:confused:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It seems to have turned into bearded Elves, and then bearded Men.

But the tale of Turin and Nienor is a very tragic tale, at least one of the most tragic I've ever read. Such a sad story... :( :( :(

*Goes to sob in a corner*

[Lalaith]

Did Faramir had a beard?
I think so and I think I saw a picture where he has a beard.

Anyway. Generally I imagine all men beeing handsome and that means to me having no beard at all.

But the tale of Turin and Nienor is a very tragic tale, at least one of the most tragic I've ever read. Such a sad story...
One of the sadest stories I ever heard. I'm always so touched when I read from them in Tolkiens books. The fortune was not on their side at all.

[Finmandos12]

One of the sadest stories I ever heard. I'm always so touched when I read from them in Tolkiens books

When I reread the Silmarillion, I usually skip over Of Turin Turambar. It makes me so angry when I read about Turin's stupidity and faithlessness.... Yeah, I know its not all his fault, but it still makes me mad.

[Lalaith]

When I reread the Silmarillion, I usually skip over Of Turin Turambar. It makes me so angry when I read about Turin's stupidity and faithlessness.... Yeah, I know its not all his fault, but it still makes me mad.
I can understand your point of view, although I don't share it. I just love that story.
But what I really love are the Nienor parts, not so much the Túrin parts. But yeah, he has been a fortunes fool.

BTW: How often have you read the Silmarillion to talk about reread and usually.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
When I reread the Silmarillion, I usually skip over Of Turin Turambar. It makes me so angry when I read about Turin's stupidity and faithlessness.... Yeah, I know its not all his fault, but it still makes me mad.

Turin's tale is also one of my less favorites. I don't think he was overly stupid or faithless, but a lot of bad events could certainly have been avoided IMO if he had been less proud or headstrong.

[Lalaith]

I believe his pride and headstrongness came from the evil spell that lay on him. But yeah, some things should not have happend, eg killing the lahme (I don't remember his name by now) man when he told him that Nienor was Túrins sister.

[Finmandos12]

BTW: How often have you read the Silmarillion to talk about reread and usually.

Seven or eight times.

I believe his pride and headstrongness came from the evil spell that lay on him.

To a certain extent. However, there were choices he could have made that would have made things better (or why would Gwindor have said, "If you don't rescue Finduilas, your fate will meet you."

[Lalaith]

or why would Gwindor have said, "If you don't rescue Finduilas, your fate will meet you."

Okay, thats a point. But he didn't do that and maybe it was his fate to kill Glaurung.

But I see I'm the only real Túrin/Nienor fan in here. But that's okay.

[Falagar]

Túrin/Nienor is one of the saddest story in the whole Silm., and I like it, but that doesn't make me like their relationship.

[Lalaith]

That's a good point of view! I like their relationship, even if they should not have one.

[Mortis]

hey Lalaith!:)

[Mortis]

Originally posted by Mortis
hey Lalaith!:) im new at this....i dont know how all the things work on this page.....

[Falagar]

One way this page works:
When you post, it should at least have some meaning.
If it doesn't have a meaning, then at least write that it is off-topic :)


(and no, I don't want any comments about my posts from the rest of you! ;))

PS:
If I sounded a little angry in this post, it was not intentionale! :D

[Falagar]

Oh, and let me by the way say:
Welcome to the Entmoot! Hope you'll have lots of fun here :)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Lalaith
That's a good point of view! I like their relationship, even if they should not have one.

I agree...I think it is a romantic relationship even though they are brother ans sister....at the same time I am thinking "yuck" so it is a bit confusing to me!:confused: :D

[Sween]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I agree...I think it is a romantic relationship even though they are brother ans sister....at the same time I am thinking "yuck" so it is a bit confusing to me!:confused: :D

this is an easily misunderstood realtionship i believe what tokien was trying to convay was that love springs eternal. I mean i have a sister and god bless i do love her and turin would of loved his sister but if you wiped memory of each other that love would easily mistaken if you know what i mean?

i think they both over reacted with killing themselevs mind

[cassiopeia]

But what would happen if Nienor had the baby? I think she realised she had no choice but to kill herself (however awful that is).
I like the story, I think it's sad and beautiful (like the rest of the stories in the Sil). I wish Turin would have gone back to Menegroth and talked to Thingol. :)

[Wayfarer]

But what would happen if Nienor had the baby That would make them 'Uncle Dad' and 'Auntie Mom'

Eeewww. That's my final word.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sween
this is an easily misunderstood realtionship i believe what tokien was trying to convay was that love springs eternal. I mean i have a sister and god bless i do love her and turin would of loved his sister but if you wiped memory of each other that love would easily mistaken if you know what i mean?

i think they both over reacted with killing themselevs mind

Well if I were carrying my brother's child I think I would try to kill myself too
....but as for Turin...hmmm I'm not sure what I awould have done if I were him:confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sween
this is an easily misunderstood realtionship i believe what tokien was trying to convay was that love springs eternal. I mean i have a sister and god bless i do love her and turin would of loved his sister but if you wiped memory of each other that love would easily mistaken if you know what i mean? Turin had never seen or met Nienor before, so there was no memory of them being brother and sister, only inthat they knew of each others existance through Morwen. Morwen was pregnant with Nienor when she sent Turin to Doriath at the age of 8.

[Lalaith]

As we all love (the more or less) or sister/brother, I believe it is possible to fall in love with your brother/sister. I mean, you have many things in common, believe in the same things ... then you could easily fall in love with him/her. but if you already know that this is a relative of you, your brain stops you from falling in love.

[BeardofPants]

Actually no. There is a thing called a kinship taboo, which is a psychological sex taboo. Basically, if you are raised in close confines with someone of your own age-group, between the ages of newly born, to around 7 years of age, then the taboo kicks in. Biology's way of ensuring that humans don't in-breed too much. Of course, that didn't stop me from believing that I had to marry my brother when I was younger. Ew!

Edit: Whoopsie, just noticed the rest of your post. :rolleyes:

[Finmandos12]

Of course, that didn't stop me from believing that I had to marry my brother when I was younger.

Only if you were the sister of the pharaoh in ancient Egypt......

[BeardofPants]

LOL! :D

[Wayfarer]

I seem to recall the pharoh would sometimes marry his daughter or granddaughter as well.
Imagine how inbred they must have been.

[BeardofPants]

The Thutmosids were especially driven to in-breeding. Check out their early family trees sometime.

[Lalaith]

Yuk.
Then your children get serious illnesses from having children with your brother/sister.
Yuk.
Fortunately Nienor killed herself. Her child would be very weak and ill.
Yuk.
What do you think that she would have a boy or a girl?

[Alquagarwaen]

It`s a hard question, but I`m agree, becouse what they felt was love at anyways.


Respectfully...
Alquagarwaen

[Lalaith]

Real Love. Maybe, but against the rules of nature.

[FrodoFriend]

I don't think it's that big of a deal that they were siblings. They "ewww" reflex is imbedded in our brains, so that if they had recognized each other no doubt they would have shuddered at the very thought of marriage, etc. But since they were strange to one another it doesn't really make that much of a difference. I doubt their child would have been deformed or had other serious biological problems from one incident of incest.

Túrin would have been better with Finduilas though.

I'm actually writing a fanfic about Túrin and Nienor's love ... and then I'm going to write one about their kid ... LOL ....

I feel sorry for the baby, at any rate. She didn't have to kill it too! Why didn't she wait until it was born and then kill herself? Damn selfishness, if you ask me. Poor thing.

[Lalaith]

I feel sorry for the baby, at any rate. She didn't have to kill it too! Why didn't she wait until it was born and then kill herself? Damn selfishness, if you ask me. Poor thing.
Poor baby, I'd say, without parents.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I seem to recall the pharoh would sometimes marry his daughter or granddaughter as well.
Imagine how inbred they must have been.

I heard that's why they fell, because they basically inbred so much that down the line they became mentally impaired, or died in infancy due to severe defects.

[Lalaith]

I heard that's why they fell, because they basically inbred so much that down the line they became mentally impaired, or died in infancy due to severe defects.
Actually that family-marriage thing happend to many royal/monarchy families. They just wanted to keep power and all the land and the money in the family.

[snowmane]

whenever i read the turin thing it makes me all sad, and yet sick at the same time:( nienor niniel was havig here brothers child!bleugh.......damn glaurung the dragon!!

also i dont imagine tuor or turin with a beard-very unalike for cousins dont u fink?

[azalea]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Actually that family-marriage thing happend to many royal/monarchy families. They just wanted to keep power and all the land and the money in the family.

You're right, I might be thinking of another royal line. I forget.

[Lalaith]

Unbelieveable. Marrying your cousin just to keep the money. I wouldn't want to marry my cousins.
But if I knew them not ....?
I wonder if Turin and Nienor didn't look the same.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by azalea
You're right, I might be thinking of another royal line. I forget.

No, you're right. The Pharaohs were incestuous. I think often brothers and sisters married.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Unbelieveable. Marrying your cousin just to keep the money. I wouldn't want to marry my cousins.


Hmph, and Lalaith is the one with a thing for brother/sister stuff? :p

[Lalaith]

Hmph, and Lalaith is the one with a thing for brother/sister stuff?
Me? Never. I just like the story of Turin and Nienor (ah, I forgot, Luke and Leia), but personally I would never marry my brother (as I have only a sister).

[snowmane]

do u no wats just as bad as turin and nienor niniel?maglin fancied his cuz-y he hated tuor partly and one of morgoth bargaining chips 2 find out where gondolin was.he knew that she was hs cousin and he still wanted her!i fink thats worse than the bro/sis thing.... at least they did not know they were related..... :(

[Lalaith]

yeah, but maeglin was not allowed to marry his cousin because she was his cousin and the elves still have moral!

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by snowmane
do u no wats just as bad as turin and nienor niniel?maglin fancied his cuz-y he hated tuor partly and one of morgoth bargaining chips 2 find out where gondolin was.he knew that she was hs cousin and he still wanted her!i fink thats worse than the bro/sis thing.... at least they did not know they were related..... :(

Ahh! I'm getting a headache trying to read that! And I can usually understand chat-speak as I do it myself when I chat.

I don't like Maeglin anyway. Just like I don't like Feanor. (No, I don't hate him like someone said in the Feanor thread. )

[Inderjit Sanghera]

yeah, but maeglin was not allowed to marry his cousin because she was his cousin and the elves still have moral!

Seemingly, Galadriel and Celeborn are devoid of morals. ;)

[Lalaith]

Seemingly, Galadriel and Celeborn are devoid of morals.
Don't think so.

[Falagar]

I don't like Maelor anyway. Just like I don't like Feanor. (No, I don't hate him like someone said in the Feanor thread. )
Now, who may that have been :rolleyes:
I was just kidding about it (or, more correctly, I was going to write Fëanor-bashing, but I forgot the word :D)

[Linaewen]

Hehe. I forgot who it was. Arghhh! Maelor! What possessed me to do that? *runs into a wall* It's because its nearly 1 pm. I'm half dead atm. Must go to sleep....

[Falagar]

Wholly understandable. People seldom remember my name :rolleyes: ;)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Well, in Tolkien's latter writings, Galadriel and Celeborn were both were grand-children of Olwe, whereas in earlier passages Celeborn was a Nandorin Elf, which was changed to him being a grand-son of Elmo, brother of Elwe. The change of genalogy to a grandson of Olwe would make them first cousins, though whether this reference can be considered canonical, I am unsure.

I think that 'Laws and Custom's mentions that Elves generally didn't marry with their cousins. I see this as a mainly Eldarin customs, since Avarin interaction was pretty much non-existent, especially in Beleriand where the Tatyarin Avari were wholly unfriendly with any of the Eldar (See 'Quendi and Eldar' for more) and the Nelyarin Avari mainly lived in Doriath/Ossiriand. So whether the marriage between cousisn apllied to Avarin Elves I don't know, but I think that they shared the 'instinct' of not marrying their cousins/brothers and sisters as it may have been a common Elven feeling.

[Linaewen]

Why? Falagar. It's not that hard. I'll make an effort to remember. It's just because I've read so many threads tonight (been on for four hours) that I got confused.

[Lalaith]

Hehe. I forgot who it was. Arghhh! Maelor! What possessed me to do that? *runs into a wall* It's because its nearly 1 pm. I'm half dead atm. Must go to sleep....
You didn't write Maelor, I think.
I don't like Maeglin anyway. Just like I don't like Feanor. (No, I don't hate him like someone said in the Feanor thread. )

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Well, in Tolkien's latter writings, Galadriel and Celeborn were both were grand-children of Olwe, whereas in earlier passages Celeborn was a Nandorin Elf, which was changed to him being a grand-son of Elmo, brother of Elwe. The change of genalogy to a grandson of Olwe would make them first cousins, though whether this reference can be considered canonical, I am unsure. I have only read 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn' in UT, and it seems like JRRT never settled completely on the background and genealogy of Celeborn. Personally I prefer the earlier version which is consistent with the Silmarillion. The history where Celeborn is made a grandson of Olwë radically changes Galadriel's part in the rebellion of the Noldor. She is supposed to have gotten permission from Manwë to go to Middle-Earth, and she comes under the ban of the Valar only by bad luck. I find it very unlikely that Manwë should give anyone such a permission. I also find it extremely unlikely that Galadriel and Celeborn should marry were they cousins.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

She is supposed to have gotten permission from Manwë to go to Middle-Earth

Celeborn and Galadriel never recieved any pardon from Manwe.

Galadriel, desparing of Valinor.....set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwe's consent Unfinished Tales.

prefer the earlier version which is consistent with the Silmarillion.

Consitency with the Silmarillion does not always equate to canon/Tolkien's final word. Looking at 'Myths Transformed' Tolkien was verging on altering the conception of the Silmarillion and of course 'smaller' factors such as Gil-Galad's parentage and Amras's fate. Though, ,C.T done a great job with the Published Sil. one wonders what it would've look liked if he had waited.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Consitency with the Silmarillion does not always equate to canon/Tolkien's final word. I didn't intend to go into a discussion with you about canon, Inderjit :) I was just stating which version I personally preferred. You are right, of course, Galadriel did not get a formal permission, but she was not refused either:
This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, known to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. This is stated in UT, referring to the same history in which Celeborn is a Telerin Elf of Aman. But my point was, to me this story seemed too unlikely.

[Lalaith]

I wonder where the administrator is who should tell us to keep the topic. lol

[Artanis]

You're right. Sorry. :)

[Lalaith]

The greatest women of aman does not have to excuse herself.

[Artanis]

She does, when she has done wrong.
But knowing her well, I fear she will repeat her faults ... :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Was someone looking for me?:D

Many times in the course of normal discussion of a topic, one thing can lead to another and the topic may veer away from the original post. That is not unusual, and I usually won't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't go clear out into left field, or become ridiculous, and lengthy before getting back on topic. And in almost all threads, it does go back on topic without my help.:)

[Linaewen]

That could be because someone has no idea what people are talking about in a thread, so they just post something in response to the thread topic. Or, they really want to say what they think about the thread topic. Or because they don't know what to say anymore.

I guess you can tell that I do all this. :D

[Lalaith]

I'm the master of off-topic (sorry SGH). but I really hate it when I want to post in a new thread and they are already in an off-topic discussion.
So, lets get back to the topic. (I'm trying to do this really often, because I really fear SGH - lol).

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I'm the master of off-topic (sorry SGH). but I really hate it when I want to post in a new thread and they are already in an off-topic discussion.
So, lets get back to the topic. (I'm trying to do this really often, because I really fear SGH - lol).

Yeah. I attempted to see what was going on in the Most Impressive Female Character Thread (which I am fond of) but some people are having a catty fight over some Elf or other. ;)

Oooh. Why should you fear SGH? Hehe. She's one of the main perpetrators of the off-topic discussion in said thread.

[Lalaith]

Yeah. I attempted to see what was going on in the Most Impressive Female Character Thread (which I am fond of) but some people are having a catty fight over some Elf or other.
I'm fond of it, too. My little baby. I'm so proud. LOL
But when I came back after a week there was this discussion and I didn't know what was going on and was totally confused.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Oh please! You guys have no sense of humor. Cry babies.:p

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Oh please! You guys have no sense of humor. Cry babies.:p

You cut me real deep, SGH. You cut me real deep.

Seeing as the Most Impressive Male Character thread is sure to go off track, (You will start fighting over which Elf's whose and so on and so forth, rather than which male is more impressive), why don't you start a Book character fangirl thread? (No movie characters/actors- just pure Finrod etc!)

[Lalaith]

Oh please! You guys have no sense of humor. Cry babies.
Hey, I have a sense of humor. And as the master of off-thread I like off-thread discussions. But only when I'm in it and not the outsider. ;)

[Linaewen]

Yeah. What she said. *cowers behind Lalaith*

[Lalaith]

The people with the strange online times have to keep together. :D
Me, AUStria and you, AUStralia.

[Linaewen]

They're not that strange. Another 4 hours, and it should be busy....

Hmmm. back on topic... What was the last thing said about Turin and Nienor?

[Lalaith]

They're not that strange. Another 4 hours, and it should be busy....
Compared to those US citizens, our online times are strange. But I don't care.

Hmmm. back on topic... What was the last thing said about Turin and Nienor?
Hhhhm, I don't know. But do you know Lalaith? I like her, although she is hardly mentioned.
guess where my name comes from

[Sister Golden Hair]

Cry babies! :p

[Lalaith]

You're so mean. ;)

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Lalaith

Hhhhm, I don't know. But do you know Lalaith? I like her, although she is hardly mentioned.
guess where my name comes from

There's only so much one can say about someone who dies at age 3. Imagine JRRT writing a page about a baby...

I wanted to be Lalaith. But someone *cough* already took that username. But I like Linaewen better now.

Cry babies!
I would be very mad at you now SGH, if you weren't so helpful and nice via PM. Maybe that's the real you, and you want to come across as a tough mod/admin? in threads, so everyone is scared. It won't work, I tell you! You're not only the Queen of Nargothrond, but also of off-topics!:)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Actually my dear, I rarely go off topic, but I had to in that thread to put Ruinel in her place, heehee.

I am mean you guys, and don't you forget it.:p :D

[Linaewen]

Actually my dear, I rarely go off topic, but I had to in that thread to put Ruinel in her place, heehee.

Alright, alright, I was wrong. :)

I am mean you guys, and don't you forget it.

No, you're not! SGH is ni-ice! Very kind! Very helpful! Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Linaewen
No, you're not! SGH is ni-ice! Very kind! Very helpful! Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah.

Sssssht you silly ninnyhammer! She'll hit you with her admin stick! Ask RÃ*an, she's been there before. Run while you still can! Fly you fool! :p

[Lalaith]

I wanted to be Lalaith. But someone *cough* already took that username. But I like Linaewen better now.
Poor girl! I love the name Lalaith. Today I wanted to join Yahoo, but damn, all the Tolkien names were already taken and I had to go back to my old Nick.
What does Linaewen mean?

Sssssht you silly ninnyhammer! She'll hit you with her admin stick! Ask RÃ*an, she's been there before. Run while you still can! Fly you fool!
Sounds dangerous. I think we have to ask Rìan.

[Dúnedain]

This thread is way too long for me to catch up on, lol. However, today I finished reading this in Unfinished Tales, and if you've read that version the details are so much greater. I really enjoyed reading it again with more details present. I think pound for pound it is one of the best stories I've come across in the world of Tolkien. There are many that I love and many that are great, but I just can't help to feel so much for the characters involved in this tale. I think the story of Turin's life is top notch :D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
...However, today I finished reading this in Unfinished Tales, and if you've read that version the details are so much greater.
I have to agree. If for no other story, this is the story that UT is worth reading for. So little is mentioned in The Sil compared to UT.

[Lalaith]

I love the UT version.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I love the UT version.
The Sil is great, but for details it is best to go to the other books, like UT. UT version of Túrin and Nienor rocks!

[Lalaith]

Isn't in the UT a longer version of Galadriel and Celeborn, too. A explanation and different versions and so on ....

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Sssssht you silly ninnyhammer! She'll hit you with her admin stick! Ask RÃ*an, she's been there before. Run while you still can! Fly you fool! :p

No. I will stand tall. I know SGH is lovely and kind and wonderful. Aren't you?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Linaewen
No. I will stand tall. I know SGH is lovely and kind and wonderful. Aren't you? Sure I am.:D

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sure I am.:D

Haha! I knew I would get it out of you! (SGH contradicted herself, Nyah nyah!)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Haha! I knew I would get it out of you! (SGH contradicted herself, Nyah nyah!) Well, not really. I was being sarcastic.:rolleyes:

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, not really. I was being sarcastic.:rolleyes:

Well sorry . It's somewhat difficult to tell whether someone is being sarcastic or not when they are TYPING it!

I still maintain that you are nice. Hah! You said so yourself (stuff sarcasm) and I refuse to believe that any Tolkien fan could be so mean.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Well sorry . It's somewhat difficult to tell whether someone is being sarcastic or not when they are TYPING it!

I still maintain that you are nice. Hah! You said so yourself (stuff sarcasm) and I refuse to believe that any Tolkien fan could be so mean. Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm nice.:D

[Lalaith]

One special thing about a Turin and Nienor movie would be seeing little Lalaith. :)

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Lalaith
One special thing about a Turin and Nienor movie would be seeing little Lalaith. :)

Who, may I mention, DIES at age three.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Who, may I mention, DIES at age three.
You are a mean little human.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lalaith
You are a mean little human. I think Lalaith the Elf uses the word 'human' as an insult. That kills me :D

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I think Lalaith the Elf uses the word 'human' as an insult. That kills me :D
Yes, I do! But only because Linaewen has been a very cruel little person.

[Linaewen]

I think Lalaith the Elf uses the word 'human' as an insult. That kills me
She dares to call me cruel? See what she does to others, such as poor Jonathan.

Yes, I do! But only because Linaewen has been a very cruel little person.
Wrong. I am a cruel, tall, Half-elven being.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Linaewen
She dares to call me cruel? See what she does to others, such as poor Jonathan.


Wrong. I am a cruel, tall, Half-elven being.
no, Jonathan is an adorable human beeing. my little Faramir He is not as cruel as you are.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Lalaith
no, Jonathan is an adorable human beeing. my little Faramir He is not as cruel as you are. Thanks for the kind words. But you state that I'm human. And as I said before, you call the people you want to insult 'human'. So what you said could be considered mean :D
It's like saying "Oh what a nice little orc". That is more of an insult than a compliment.

EDIT: Isn't this discussion just a little off-topic?

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks for the kind words. But by calling me Faramir, you state that I'm human. And as I said before, you call the people you want to insult 'human'. So what you said could be considered mean :D

Faramir is the best! It is no insult to be called him!
But, alas, she probably is insulting you.
Hey, Jonathan, I was nice to you to! (Erm.. at some point)

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks for the kind words. But you state that I'm human. And as I said before, you call the people you want to insult 'human'. So what you said could be considered mean :D
It's like saying "Oh what a nice little orc". That is more of an insult than a compliment.

EDIT: Isn't this discussion just a little off-topic?
No, normally I don't use Human as an insult, but I knew that Linaewen - as she is a fair Elf Lady - will be upset if I call her human. that's all.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Isn't this discussion just a little off-topic?Yes it is. Let's get back on topic folks.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes it is. Let's get back on topic folks.
sorry, back to the topic.
Why did Morwen send Turin alone to Thingol?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
sorry, back to the topic.
Why did Morwen send Turin alone to Thingol? Morwen had decided to stay in her home and wait for Hurin's return. The lands though had become dangerous there and she wanted Turin to be safe, so she sent him to Doriath. Thingol offered her safety as well, and this is when she told him that she would not leave her home.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Morwen had decided to stay in her home and wait for Hurin's return. The lands though had become dangerous there and she wanted Turin to be safe, so she sent him to Doriath. Thingol offered her safety as well, and this is when she told him that she would not leave her home.
Thanks Sister Golden Hair. How do you remember all these things?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Thanks Sister Golden Hair. How do you remember all these things?

That was a pretty integral part of the plot. Next time, read it properly for full satisfaction. :)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I think Lalaith the Elf uses the word 'human' as an insult. That kills me :D
Actually, 'Apanóna' would be an insult for a 'human'. It's quite condescending. ;)

On topic: Didn't Morwen send Turin by himself because she was pregnant with Nienor? As well, she considered that if too many were traveling together, that the chances of them being spotted and captured would be greater. Is that not right?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Actually, 'Apanóna' would be an insult for a 'human'. It's quite condescending. ;)

On topic: Didn't Morwen send Turin by himself because she was pregnant with Nienor? As well, she considered that if too many were traveling together, that the chances of them being spotted and captured would be greater. Is that not right? Yes that is right. However, the time at hand for Turin's safety dictated that it be right then.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Actually, 'Apanóna' would be an insult for a 'human'. It's quite condescending. ;)


Just love showing off your new-found knowledge of your birth tongue, doncha? ;) :D

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes that is right. However, the time at hand for Turin's safety dictated that it be right then.
Yes, (without looking through the book, so I could be wrong), I recall that it was a very desperate time for them. I felt a sense of urgency when I read it at that point.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Periswa
Just love showing off your new-found knowledge of your birth tongue, doncha?
Actually, I've known bits and pieces for a while. This word, I've known for quite a while. I call my brother tithen cabor all of the time.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
That was a pretty integral part of the plot. Next time, read it properly for full satisfaction. :)
I didn't meant only this part (I thought it was that way, but I was not quite sure, and then I'll prefer to ask before I say something wrong), your seem to remember every little detail that Tolkien has ever written.