Aragorn's Fall...any changes of opinion out there?

[Black Breathalizer]

A number of "outraged" fans have ranted and raved about the changes in TTT here. Some wondered why Peter Jackson had to "make up" new scenes when, in their opinion, Tolkien's original was fine just as it was. One of the new scenes drawing particular Purist scorn was the "invented" warg battle and Aragorn's fall.

Yesterday I received an email from a guy who debated with me about the merits of these changes on another forum. He sheepishly admitted I was right. After watching the film a number of times, he realized he'd grown fond of them, particularly Aragorn's dramatic ride to Helm's Deep and his reunion with Legolas.

I suspect he is not alone. Any others out there who are now ready to admit you overreacted and are willing to give Jackson his due? Don't worry, I promise not to say 'I told you so.' :D

[ElfFriend]

It didnot happen! but he is very sexy when wet:D

AND HALDIR DIDN'T DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elvedans]

I don't particularly mind the differences between the book and the film. Remember that the film is BASED on the book not an exact replica. And it reminds you that it is another man's version of Tolkien's work. I mean you get loads of copies of artists' paintings that are anything but exactly the same. I just forget everything and lose myself in it and am content. Could you do a better job?

[Celebréiel]

:o I minded! Minded alot, mind you! I think I could do a better job! ;) ! j/k Um no, okay, I acctually have gotten over most of my beefs with TT :D , some of the stuff I can acctually understand and yeah, PJ did do a good job. But there are some things still that I wont ever ever get and will always bug me...one line that really bugged me was Legolas 'your late' line to Aragorn!! Ow the pain! But anyways, yeah, I will admit I was hasty in my first judgement of TT. Its semi good......yeah......
~Celebréiel

[Elvedans]

Aaaah.. go on Celebreiel, admit it... you loved it didn't you? Go on say it, say it, go on say it!!!

[Miranda]

Originally posted by Elvedans
Aaaah.. go on Celebreiel, admit it... you loved it didn't you? Go on say it, say it, go on say it!!!

Easy huney- you been doing woodlouse impressions again or something!!!!!!? I have to agree with you though. Be it the books or the films I can't help but lose myself in Middle Earth and you and I well know my personal take on Tolkien's work! Oh and Roxie's too!!!! Mx

[Huan]

None of the changes are keeping me from seeing the movie multiple times, but the ones I objected to originally I still do. Namely: when Treebeard calls the Ents at Isengard, they're all right there, magically popping out of Fangorn Forest. WHERE DID THEY COME FROM? And I don't mind the story of Arwen and Elrond, but Aragorn's fall and rescue are still ridiculous to me. The minute the scene begins of him floating unconscious in the river, I get up for the bathroom. But the way I see it, a three-hour movie needs a weak spot for those with human bladders. For Fellowship I always went to the bathroom during the Caradhras scene (man against the elements always bores me).

[Kalimac]

>>WHERE DID THEY COME FROM<<

Well, they are trees . . and, there is a forest there . . perhaps he just woke them up. :rolleyes:

[straight_face]

Of course, having Aragorn become attached to the Warg, dragged over the cliff etc. etc. was the only way they were able to slip Arwen into the movie. I was nodding off at that moment during the film- it was that bad. I understand that Arwen's role in the Fellowship was not terrible, but this? This is horrible!

[Elf Girl]

I minded a WHOLE LOT!!! But I did like his meeting with Legolas and Eowyn.:o

[Eglantine Banks]

I think Aragorn's fall off the cliff is unnecessary, Hollywood-esque, and poorly executed. It seems to always draw loud titters from the audience -- and I agree, that scene is so horrible I feel embarrassed for the moviemakers. I put it on the level of some of the fan fiction that you can read on some of the Tolkien sites. Fan fic is fun for the people writing it, and sometimes it's fun to read, but nobody has ever claimed their fan fic was an improvement on JRRT. I look at a great deal of this movie as basically PJ & Co.'s fan fic, that unfortunately they got to make into a movie.

I have no problem with Arwen being included, since her presence in the movie does address the question of Aragorn's motivations, but I don't see why they don't just incorporate her in flashbacks or dream sequences. There's a whole, lovely story in the appendix they could have used. There was no need to make one up.

I'm not crazy about the whole Warg battle, either. Usually in Tolkien (Hobbit & FOTR) when Wargs appear they *don't* have orcs on their backs. There is just that one brief mention of "wolf riders" in TTT, that PJ & Co. embellished to make a whole battle out of.

-Eglantine

[Insidious Rex]

Had no problem with the Warg attack. Thought it was pretty cool actually. Although Im not sure about that horse mounting stunt by Legolas. Looked wrong somehow. But when Aragorn falls off the cliff well that was a bit much. I was thinking Indiana Jones the whole way. Kind of unnecessary but hey I can go with it. The two unforgivibles to me were having Pippen TRICK treebeard into going to war on Isengaurd after they originally decided not to. Ok first off in the book they are already pissed and this leads to them deciding to attack. Why change that? And then we are to accept that a little hobbit can trick this ancient creature who is the leader of his race and considers things very very carefully and thoughtfully before he does them just like that? No. Didnt work for me at all. And then the biggest hiccup I had was with the whole showing the Nazgul the ring scene. God... Are you kidding me? But then Ive talked about this in another thread so I wont get into it here.

[Lanelf]

I wasn't too peeved at Aragorn's fall (mainly because he looked sooooo hot in the water!;)) but I did get annoyed that they didn't put all of the book in. Gandalf & co didn't even get to Isengard and they should have been almost leaving by the end, shouldn't they? And no Shelob, and....:mad: Just get the next movie out, and maybe I'll be nice to PJ. Meaning maybe I'll strangle him before burning him at the stake.
And teh Ent-forest at Helms Deep. I thought it should have been there. If PJ can make o-so-many special effects doing other stuff at Helm's Deep, how come he can't find time to do a few things like that?
Lanelf.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Lanelf
I wasn't too peeved at Aragorn's fall (mainly because he looked sooooo hot in the water!;)) but I did get annoyed that they didn't put all of the book in. Gandalf & co didn't even get to Isengard and they should have been almost leaving by the end, shouldn't they? And no Shelob, and....:mad: Just get the next movie out, and maybe I'll be nice to PJ. Meaning maybe I'll strangle him before burning him at the stake.
And teh Ent-forest at Helms Deep. I thought it should have been there. If PJ can make o-so-many special effects doing other stuff at Helm's Deep, how come he can't find time to do a few things like that?
Lanelf.

The parts you talked about first will be in Return of the King. The Ent-forest (Huorns) was cut and will be in the Extended Edition DVD for TTT...

[Elf.Freak]

i saw TTT again yesterday. I admit i liked the film, but afterwards i was ranting on how there were changes, people died who shouldn't, how ARWEN DOESN'T LEAVE RIVENDELL and so on. may i say that Aragorn's Fall wasn't that bad though, so sometimes PJ manages to do SOMETHING right!

[Blackboar]

Just out of interest, why did PJ add that bit about Aragorn anyway?

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Blackboar
Just out of interest, why did PJ add that bit about Aragorn anyway? One of the best qualities of PJ's work is that he is able to share alot with the audience with mere looks, gestures, glances, and other actions. Combined with Howard Shore's moving soundtrack, many important things about the story are communicated without the need for lengthy exposition. Aragorn's reunion with Legolas, Aragorn's good-bye to Arwen, Elrond and Arwen's talk, Aragorn handling the young boy's sword, and Gimli telling Eowyn that Aragorn fell are all wonderful examples of scenes where the Director communicates a great deal beyond the script's dialogue.

Aragorn's recovery on the riverbank was PJ's way of showing the audience just how connected Aragorn and Arwen were. We understand that Aragorn's love for Arwen is able to push him beyond pain and physical exhaustion. We also learn that both Aragorn and Arwen have an unshakable hope when everything around them literally cries out for hopelessness and dispair.

I think one of the reasons why some people don't understand this film is because of the way they are watching it:
Person One --- watches the March of the Ents and is moved by the visually gorgous scene of the Ents coming out of the forest while that incredible boy's singing is heard in the background from the soundtrack.
Person Two --- watches the same scene and immediately reacts with, "hey, how'd all those Ents get there so fast?!?!?" and ends up missing the beauty -- and the point -- entirely.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Elf.Freak
ARWEN DOESN'T LEAVE RIVENDELL

Indeed! Where was she going, anyway?

[Kalimac]

>>Where was she going, anyway?<<

The audience is suppose to think she is going to the Grey Havens with the rest of her people . . . . but . . there is a 'spoiler' picture of a cloaked figure that looks a lot like Arwen going to pick up the Shards of Narsil . . leading to speculation that Arwen will bring Aragorn the sword reforged in Return of the King.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Kalimac
there is a 'spoiler' picture of a cloaked figure that looks a lot like Arwen going to pick up the Shards of Narsil . . leading to speculation that Arwen will bring Aragorn the sword reforged in Return of the King.[/Spoiler]

Do you have a link for that pic?

[Black Breathalizer]

Dúnedain, the image of Arwen at the shards of Narzil monument is from the TTT extended Preview from the FOTR movie. It is also an easter egg in the Extended FOTR DVD.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
One of the best qualities of PJ's work is that he is able to share alot with the audience with mere looks, gestures, glances, and other actions. Combined with Howard Shore's moving soundtrack, many important things about the story are communicated without the need for lengthy exposition. Aragorn's reunion with Legolas, Aragorn's good-bye to Arwen, Elrond and Arwen's talk, Aragorn handling the young boy's sword, and Gimli telling Eowyn that Aragorn fell are all wonderful examples of scenes where the Director communicates a great deal beyond the script's dialogue.That I agree with. Good acting there, except from Liv Tyler who, by judging her job in FotR and TTT, imo is a very poor actress. During her scenes in TTT I was in badly need of a fast forward button. :rolleyes:

I wish PJ had stayed closer to the book when he lined out the movie plot. But he didn't, and I still enjoy the movies immensely. Having thus accepted the deviations from the book, I haven't any major problem accepting the mentioned warg - falling from cliff - awakening - reunion scenes, as part of the plot.

What I do find difficult is to believe in Aragorn's superiority in the movie. Aragorn in the book is a Numenorean, he is related to Elrond so there's an Elvish strain in his blood, and he has been fostered in Imladris. And he has got Anduril. None of these circumstances are present in the movie. How am I supposed to believe it, when he falls off that cliff and, against all common sense, survives? And not only survives, but brings himself up on a horse and rides all the way to Helms Deep, and later the very night joins the battle there. How am I supposed to believe that he alone should be able to fight off several dozens of orcs? Why is it natural for him to take command over the Elven host at Helms Deep? And so on. Doesn't all this reduce him to a regular actionfilm-oversized unrealistic hero? It does to me.

[Legolaslvr!]

I cried when i thought Aragorn died!!


I only hve read the 1 book so i didn't know that he realy didn't die but he did look pretty sexy in that scene!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Artanis
What I do find difficult is to believe in Aragorn's superiority in the movie. Aragorn in the book is a Numenorean, he is related to Elrond so there's an Elvish strain in his blood, and he has been fostered in Imladris. And he has got Anduril. None of these circumstances are present in the movie. How am I supposed to believe it, when he falls off that cliff and, against all common sense, survives? And not only survives, but brings himself up on a horse and rides all the way to Helms Deep, and later the very night joins the battle there. How am I supposed to believe that he alone should be able to fight off several dozens of orcs? Why is it natural for him to take command over the Elven host at Helms Deep? And so on. Doesn't all this reduce him to a regular actionfilm-oversized unrealistic hero? It does to me. You provided the answer to your own question, Artanis. The audience who may or may not have read the books needs to understand that Aragorn IS different from other men. The non-Tolkienite may not understand that he is Numenorean, but they need to appreciate that he is unique and special; he is the heir of kings. This sequence in the movie is designed to capture on film the heart of Tolkien's Aragorn.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The non-Tolkienite may not understand that he is Numenorean, but they need to appreciate that he is unique and special; he is the heir of kings. This sequence in the movie is designed to capture on film the heart of Tolkien's Aragorn. I understand what you say in your first sentence, I just think it's unlikely that people will get the point, other that this is a cool film and Aragorn is a hero and obviously survives everything as do all heros in such films. I know I would think so myself if I hadn't read the book first. But then, I sincerely hope the audience will understand, and prove that you're right.

And I also hope you're right in your last sentence. It works well with me because I'm inevitably projecting the background and inheritance of book-Aragorn onto movie-Aragorn. Lucky me :)

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Artanis
It works well with me because I'm inevitably projecting the background and inheritance of book-Aragorn onto movie-Aragorn. Lucky me :)This is the challenge of the filmmaker: to make a film that works for the newbie and adds new color and depth to Tolkien's story for the Rings fans. I think PJ did an amazing job of doing just that--and introducing the books to a new generation that grew up with VCRs and Playstations rather than with books.

[samwise of the shire]

Lanelf...because they took the Scouring Of The Shire out of ROTK they needed to make ROTK longer so they put Shelob and the meeting in ROTK to make it meet it's 3 hours quotia, actually I heard that: ROTK is gonna be 3 1/2 hours long. so there should be no problem with puttin' everythin' in.
Aragorns fall was just a little repeat of theme. Did you notice that a certain grey clad man fell off a sort of high place and was thought dead in fotr? D'ya think that someone'll probably fall off the walls of Minas Tirith...maybe Pippin? Or should we push Gimli off? But they needed to get the non-Tolkienite audience to realize that Arwen would have to give up her immortality to marry Aragorn because they took the bit that might've explained that fact out of FOTR and put it in the extended version...stupid idiots.
So think about it...having Aragorn take a little lesson in ropeless bungee jumping was better than having Arwen take a few sword fighting lessons at Helms Deep and explain it all after the battle...so I can forgive PJ.
But there was no reason to have the Ents as STUPID as they were...that REALLY teed me...though Pippin's growin' some brains which is good.
Cheers,
Sam

[Evenstar1400]

Aragorn's fall shocked the audiences. Both those who read the books and those who didn't. Those who did read them thought, "when did this happen?" where as those who didnt read them thought, "i thought he's one of the main characters.............. why was he killed. and the fangirls all thought "my god he looks so sexy when hes all wet."

i think pj added that scene to wake the audience up a bit. or maybe viggo morttisen suggested to put the scene in to become more popular than legolas (cause he does the thing when he jumps on the horse, and slides down the stairs on that sheild shooting arrows)

yeah so thats my opinion.

i'm guessing eowyngirl14 will have something to say about this. so eowyngirl14 keep your riff raff about aragorn being better in the fangirl thread.

[eowyngirl14]

Well... I'll have you know that when Viggo did that shot and hit the water he got pulled under for 15 feet and could have drowned!! he risked his life so that he could be better than Legolas? I don't think soo! HE doesn't need any cheep stunts to make him look good! (he did look kinda sexy all wet?)

I cried soooo hard during that scene... ask evenstar1400. Even though I had read the books I thought for a minute there that he was really dead! It was terrible!:) :)

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Legolaslvr!
I cried when i thought Aragorn died!!


I only hve read the 1 book so i didn't know that he realy didn't die but he did look pretty sexy in that scene!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Unfortunately, even if you had read all the books, you still wouldn't know if he had died, because that scene isn't in the books! :mad: :mad: :mad: (Note- those angry smilies are directed at PJ, not at you, Legolaslvr!.)

And I really, REALLY didn't like Leglolas's "horse-mounting stunt", as it was aptly put by Insidious Rex. Legolas would not jump in front of a running horse just to get on it. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by samwise of the shire
D'ya think that someone'll probably fall off the walls of Minas Tirith...maybe Pippin? Or should we push Gimli off
ooh *shudders* your probably right! Pj loves that continuing theme junk, bleah. ;) Someone will fake die in rotk. Id also bet he'll have some annoying quip about Gimli and his beard, dwarf tossing games, with Legolas or something. I wonder who they'll turn into a punch line spouting comic relief in Rotk. Ow, *screams* it hurts! my heeaaad!!
~Celebréiel

[Elf Girl]

But Eowyn fake dies, remember? He won't need anyone else. *under breath* thank the Valar.

[Huan]

I just know you're right, Celebreiel, about the dwarf-tossing. It's made it into two movies already. I forgot to mention that one. I HATE HATE HATE the dwarf-tossing "jokes." Aragorn could fall of six hundred cliffs for all I'd care, if they'd just leave out the dwarf-tossing. What really bugs me is that in the DVD commentary, PJ seems to think this gag is okay because only Australians and New Zealanders know about dwarf-tossing. No, everyone's heard about it, Mr. Jackson, and it's so inappropriate in LOTR.

[Black Breathalizer]

I must be visiting the wrong theatres. Everytime Gimli looks up at Aragorn and says "Toss me," the audience laughs out loud. They also laugh loudly when he tells Legolas "You coulda picked a better spot" from behind the wall. I guess I need to add a new category to the Sundering of the Tolkien Fan thread: Purists with No Sense of Humor. :D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Don't you mean: Purists Who Disapprove of the Shameless Perversion of Characters? Gimli and Faramir were 2 things of the biggies for me.

But anyway, in case you all want to know where Arwen went:
She jumps ship just after they set sail, swims to shore, and whistles for the stolen Asfaloth. She then rides fast and hard to Minas Tirith, and disguises as a male soldier. When she sees the Noble Theoden slain, she defends his body from the Witch-King.
:D

[eowyngirl14]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Don't you mean: Purists Who Disapprove of the Shameless Perversion of Characters? Gimli and Faramir were 2 things of the biggies for me.

But anyway, in case you all want to know where Arwen went:
She jumps ship just after they set sail, swims to shore, and whistles for the stolen Asfaloth. She then rides fast and hard to Minas Tirith, and disguises as a male soldier. When she sees the Noble Theoden slain, she defends his body from the Witch-King.
:D

is that true? OH! please say that it is not!:) :)

[Huan]

BB, just because the audience laughs at the dwarf-tossing gags doesn't mean they belong in the movie. And just because some of us object to certain jokes doesn't mean we don't have a sense of humor.

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by Huan
BB, just because the audience laughs at the dwarf-tossing gags doesn't mean they belong in the movie. And just because some of us object to certain jokes doesn't mean we don't have a sense of humor.
very true!! (the audience also laughed at Gollum, i dont think their a good indicator of whats funny) The dwarf gags were just really annoying. We get it...Gimli's short! It totally made a mockery of his character and of tolkiens work. They just werent funny.
~ Celebréiel

[Black Breathalizer]

The Scene: A test screening of TTT. Director Peter Jackson and Tolkien fan, Celebréiel, are observing a movie audience's reactions to the film.

[We hear roars of laughter from the audience.]

Jackson: Whew, I'm relieved. The audience really laughed at the funny little bits we wrote into certain scenes to balance the tension and drama of the moment.

Celebréiel: Laughter from the audience means nothing!

Jackson: oh.

Celebréiel: Movie audiences aren't good indicators of what's funny.

Jackson: oh.

Celebréiel: Only we Tolkien Book Purists are fit to judge what is genuinely funny or not.

Jackson: But I'm not writing a book, I'm making a movie...

Celebréiel: You should have given us Tom Bombadil. [i]Now there is a FUNNY guy!!!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Celebréiel: Only we Tolkien Book Purists are fit to judge what is genuinely funny or not.

Jackson: But I'm not writing a book, I'm making a movie...

Celebréiel: You should have given us Tom Bombadil. [i]Now there is a FUNNY guy!!!

Black, as much as i enjoyed the movies I did find the dwarf humor a little over the top in the SECOND movie. It was fine in the first. I laughed along with everyone. But in the second he seemed to become simply a comic foil and thats about it and I found that a little cheesy. I would have felt the same way if it hadnt been based on a book at all. Celebréiel just chose to use the words "a mockery of Tolkien" but even if you leave Tolkien out of it entirely it was just a little too much in my opinion. It lowered Gimli from a serious role with depth and equal to the other fellowship members in stature to a comic prop. and that was a shame.

[Celebréiel]

Darn BB you found me out, Im a stone faced robot who laughs at nothing. Just accept not everything Pj does is genius. Okay yeah, I didnt mind most of the time, but come on...that was overdone.
And chill, its just a movie, and I was just saying my opinion, you dont need to take everything so out of context. :p
*whines* If you like Pj so much...why dont you marry him!;) ~Celebréiel

[Elfhelm]

Obviously BB doesn't realize that laughter is not always about what's funny. They laughed at Gollum until Sam jerked his chain, then they stopped laughing. They were laughing because they were uncomfortable.

Do not seek to convert people via posts on the internet. People are too stupid to be converted to your genius point of view, didn't you know that? Who am I speaking to? :p

[Black Breathalizer]

So Elfhelm, are you saying Gimli's "toss me" line generated uncomfortable laughter?

I coulda sworn they were belly laughs. I guess I'm not very perceptive.

[Wayfarer]

The aragorn falling over a cliff scene was [I]horrible[I]. It had no significance to the plot, and added absolutely nothing to the movie. It was a stupid hack job of what happened to gandalf in the first movie; Everything from falling off a cliff, to the 'He has fallen/he fell', to the way lies there stunned and has a vision, to the way he gets up and immediately rides to help. It was horrible.

[Elfhelm]

I was not impressed with the falling and thought dead nonsense either. What kind of fool does he think I am? And nobody in the theatre thought he was dead. Even people who don't know the story knew darn well that he's the next king and can't die in this scene. That's like saying Kirk is dead or something. :rolleyes:

I mean, I can forgive them not using the trees to aid Helm's Deep because that's quite hard to do in a movie. And I suppose substituting the elves in the place of the trees is OK. But I have seen it 5 times now and I still don't like Aragorn falling off a cliff.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I was not impressed with the falling and thought dead nonsense either. What kind of fool does he think I am? And nobody in the theatre thought he was dead. Even people who don't know the story knew darn well that he's the next king and can't die in this scene. That's like saying Kirk is dead or something. :rolleyes:

I agree, like in the FOTR when the Nagul stab the empty beds, and we were led to believe that the hobbits were sleeping there. It would be hard to believe that Frodo would die half an hour into the movies. :rolleyes:
I agree with Wayfarers assesment of Aragorn's 'death'.
P.S. Didn't Kirk die in Generations? :D

[Black Breathalizer]

The Aragorn "fall" was NOT about making people (at least most people anyway) believe that he died. Those of you who believe that is all that plot device was about just don't get it.

[BeardofPants]

You're right, BB. We DON'T get it. We don't get why PJ put that scene in.

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The Aragorn "fall" was NOT about making people (at least most people anyway) believe that he died.

yes it was, you idiot. (hey i like taking your approach to this better than my own, sane way!)

Those of you who believe that is all that plot device was about just don't get it.

no, you don't get it;
We have told you time and time again, and proved ourselves in the fact that you are wrong and that 99% to 100% of your "facts" are just figments of your own imagination. In fact this whole purist thing that youve got going is a figment of your imagination! I seriously believe that you need serious help, you have to get out of this little dreamworld where you think that one) your the final no questions asked voice on all matters and two) everyone must kiss PJ's fat smelly arse!
why don't you get it? do you want to be seen as such an idiot? i have never figured out why people like you (yes, everyone, there are others) act this way.
Go ahead, post what ever you need to about me to fulfill your own fantasy game, child. Make up your little games and play god as you see fit.
i have never, ever, ever, EVER, been forced to put someone on any kind of ignore list ~
(10 american dollars says that BB hasn't even read this far down yet) ~ butyou have forced me to do so.



now, to be ontopic,
im sorry, but i had to say that before i just imploded from the boiling blood.

otherwise, i actually liked the aragorn faliing part, but i had already known and prepared myself for a great derivation form the books, sooo..
yea, anyways, i liked that part, and the parts with arwen, overall i liked this movie alot more than Fellowship, but it will all come down to RotK. That's my favourite book of all of them, and well, im just interested to see how PJ is going to orchestrate this with some of the plot changes hes taken the liberty of making.


oh, but i say ALL of this with a smile
:D

[LuthienTinuviel]

has anyone here seen my nasty side before?

haha believe it, i was holding back... but only because there's children around.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Such friendly people. ;)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
i have never figured out why people like you (yes, everyone, there are others) act this way.

NOOOOoooooo!! :eek:

[azalea]

Yes, let's all just calm down. I don't think this is worth raising our blood pressure over, what hey?:) If we find someone annoying, yes, let's just ignore. *strokes 'mooters' hair soothingly*

[Black Breathalizer]

Yes, let's calm down people. This is supposed to be a DISCUSSION board for crying out loud. While I would love to have you all agree with my incredibly enlightened points of view...;)...it would be pretty boring around here if we all thought alike.

Regarding Aragorn's fall, Jackson used this as a vehicle to assist him in communicating many key themes:

The power of Aragorn's love for Arwen and how it spurs in on beyond physical pain and exhaustion.

The strong bonds of friendship between the Three Hunters.

The growing affection that Eowyn feels towards Aragorn.

AND

Give Aragorn a moment where the audience realizes his hero status and that he is truly the heir of kings (e.g. Numenorian blood).

[Elfhelm]

Balderdash! The three hunters sundered by an overzealous director. Legolas and Gimli would not leave Aragorn to die like that! How can you call that strong bonds of friendship. It looks more like abandonment to me. Totally out of character. Sure when they thought there was still a chance to help the ringbearer they gave up the other two hobbits for lost. But this isn't the same.

And Gimli's pathetic "He fell ... *sniffle*" is unconvincing because even a great actor can't deliver a shoddy line like that.

:rolleyes:

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Balderdash! The three hunters sundered by an overzealous director. Legolas and Gimli would not leave Aragorn to die like that! How can you call that strong bonds of friendship. It looks more like abandonment to me. Totally out of character.Legolas & Gimli didn't leave Aragorn to die--they thought he was dead. The strength of their friendship could be seen on their faces when they realized they'd lost him as they looked down at the water below. It was also seen in Eowyn's face when the company made it to Helm's Deep. In fact, the look on Eowyn's face when it dawned on her that Aragorn had not returned was worth the entire plotline all by itself. What an incredible acting performance. One of the beauties of Jackson is that he doesn't bore you with exposition when he can develop scenes that allow great actors to communicate through their eyes and body language.

I'm realizing that the reason why some of you don't get it is because you want it all explained to you the same way Tolkien did in his books. But movie making requires a screenwriter to figure out ways to communicate the themes more visually. Jackson used the fall of Aragorn to do just exactly that.

[LuthienTinuviel]

an elf, especially an elf like greenleaf, would not have shown off like that horse trick. (hehe i laughed again when i saw him stumble)

and about that laughter thing, yes, some people thought that the drwarf tossing jokes were funny, but most did not, prbably 98% of the people i talked to (and they haven't read the book) thought that the dwarf thing was redundantly repetitive in it's repitition.:D

that reminds me, these two girl were laughing at the most serious moments, so by the time arwen's tear shots came up, i was throwing m&m's at them and telling them to shut up. hehe i tacked one in the skull. hahah././ aosujeflkahg

but anyways.Aragorn's reunion with Legolas was awesome, because i would have melted into my shoes is greenleaf had looked me like that. (and i wondered where people got the slash ideas from, silly me)

overall, i liked the changes to this movie, and the little stuff doesn't bother me really. it was ten fold better than FotR, and if this trend continues, then i'll have a large cardboard Pj arse to kiss everynight as well, BB.

and, before i have to hide from the objects aimed at my head, i have to say that i liked aragorn's fall, beacuse it gave us a peek at the tumoil that was going on in the minds of both arwen and aragorn. i always cry way to hard at that scene.

well, like someone said before, what was changed was better than what COULD HAVE happened.

so, with that said, here goes:
Legolas & Gimli didn't leave Aragorn to die--they thought he was dead.
and when they thought that boromir was dead they lost ground that they could have gained with the Uruks in order to send him off as properly as they could. Legolas and Gimli would have been more likely to throw them selves off of the clif in search of him than to just leave, EVEN WITH the looks that they gave Theoden.

I'm realizing that the reason why some of you don't get it is because you want it all explained to you the same way Tolkien did in his books.
have you ever even read the books? you have to do alot of guessing, if tolkien would have explained everything then the books would number about 22 instead of 6.
i feel that we have to explain everything to you. and i bet you feel that you need to explain things to us, usuing satire that completely undermines anything intelligent that you may have said above.

really, i agree with you on this, BB, but you don't need to always cut everyone down like that. you have great posts, and some of them are really well thought out, but it's always in the last paragraph that you say something along the lines of " stupid fat purists, ruining pj's vision, you keep nasty books"

and if anyone wonders why i cut BB down, well here's another transformed movie line :
i show no mercy because i receive none.

so, im sorry for being a little pissant about it, but really, grow some brains, child!

[Black Breathalizer]

Lordy, Lordy, Rev. Blackie has performed another miracle on this board!!! LuthienTinuviel has converted to Jacksonism!!! I knew it was only a matter of time before she'd open her heart and see The Light.

The rest of you Purists shouldn't feel left out. There's plenty of room inside Rev. Blackie's big kiwi tent for all of you.

;) :D

[BeardofPants]

What are you doing here?! Get out of MY country! *Kicks BB in the heiny.*

Never liked smug little smart asses. :rolleyes:

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Lordy, Lordy, Rev. Blackie has performed another miracle on this board!!! LuthienTinuviel has converted to Jacksonism!!! I knew it was only a matter of time before she'd open her heart and see The Light.

The rest of you Purists shouldn't feel left out. There's plenty of room inside Rev. Blackie's big kiwi tent for all of you.

;) :D

ok, now that i am here, i proclaim myself dictator, and kick you, and your ego out.

no, really, you haven't changed anything about me, and you would have found that out had you actually READ ANYTHING I POSTED.

so, it really comes down to this, i love the movies, but i still hate you. wow. big change there, :rolleyes:

and get out of BoP's country, i wouldn't want you spoiling it.:p

[Elfhelm]

Nightengale wrote:
and when they thought that boromir was dead they lost ground that they could have gained with the Uruks in order to send him off as properly as they could. Legolas and Gimli would have been more likely to throw them selves off of the clif in search of him than to just leave, EVEN WITH the looks that they gave Theoden.

Exactly! No way would the real L & G have abandoned Strider.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
No way would the real L & G have abandoned Strider. For the hundreth time, they didn't abandon Aragorn--they justifiably thought he was DEAD! The real Aragorn, Frodo, and the rest of the Fellowship cared deeply for Gandalf too but nobody talked about them abandoning their wizard friend when Tolkien had him fall in Moria.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And they KNEW Boromir was dead; but they spent time giving him a burial; time which, as was previously stated, could have been spent chasing the Uruks. Gandalf disappeared into a nearly bottomless pit; not much hope of recovering his body. Aragorn, they could have gone along the river; they could have certainly spent a lot of time looking for him, and it's not like they were the only defenders of Edoras, like they were the only hunters of the Uruks. While I like Tubby's movies (as a whole), Aragorn's fall is one of the silly, pointless parts, IMHO. IT was just an emulation of Gandalf's fall.

And when you say open her heart, don't you mean sold her soul? (Of course, that's if she really had become a Jacksonite, which she thankfully hasn't :D )

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
And they KNEW Boromir was dead; but they spent time giving him a burial; time which, as was previously stated, could have been spent chasing the Uruks.Um...then you must have REALLY hated Tolkien's version then Gwaimir because the author had the three hunters singing a song for their departed friend before chasing the Uruks too.Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Gandalf disappeared into a nearly bottomless pit; not much hope of recovering his body. Aragorn, they could have gone along the river; they could have certainly spent a lot of time looking for himGee, now THAT would have made a wonderfully entertaining movie scene:

Legolas: My elf eyes do not spy him over here. What about on your side of the river?

Gimli: Not a trace of him over here.

Legolas: Shall we try up river?

Gimli: I suppose. We sure didn't find anything down river.

The exciting search continues...

:D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I did not say I hated it: My point is that their previous behavior and their current behavior match poorly. And I already that about them singing ;)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The exciting search continues...



Or they could have just cut out the extraneous, unnecessary, moronic, useless death scene. :rolleyes:

[Lizra]

Which death scene! Surely not ...."My brother, My Captain, My King!" That was so good!!!! My BCK line was one of my favorites! oooh! :D

[Cirdan]

The scene is just more filler and not very well executed. Oh, Aragon's probably dead. No point in walking ten feet to look over and see. I just yawned through the whole Arwen/ghorse kissing bit. The film lags so much I could barely pay attention through the second viewing. Is that the same soundtrack from the first film? All PJs fanfic add-ins are amateurish and poorly executed. The least attention to detail is paid to the script. I can't remember the last time I got sleepy during a battle scene but Helm's Deep is just lugubrious, ponderous, and poorly paced. PJ is a hack as shown by his credits. It seemed as though the scene selections durin the last hour were edited together by a chimp. That was fun. I hope BB's head exploded.:)

[Black Breathalizer]

Hey, Cirdan. If you and Ms. Pants want to engage a person of my illustrious statue and awe-inspiring intellect in a genuine LOTR debate, you'll have to do better than your tiresome "Jackson's movies suck" routine.

[Cirdan]

Sorry I don't debated deluded idiots.:p

[Coney]

Hey, Cirdan. If you and Ms. Pants want to engage a person of my illustrious statue

They're making statues of BB now?..............you don't wear shorts and have an alergy to razor blades do you? :confused:

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Coney
They're making statues of BB now?..............you don't wear shorts and have an alergy to razor blades do you? :confused:

Is that a giant pidgeon I see coming? It looks sick!:D

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Hey, Cirdan. If you and Ms. Pants want to engage a person of my illustrious statue and awe-inspiring intellect in a genuine LOTR debate, you'll have to do better than your tiresome "Jackson's movies suck" routine.

Yeah, and you might want to put aside your delusions of grandeur, and your erroneous verbage ridden scenarios if you want to come up to our level. :p

[LuthienTinuviel]

And when you say open her heart, don't you mean sold her soul?

huh?

....the three hunters singing a song for their departed friend before chasing the Uruks too.

spending more time on someone that they knew was dead, beacuse of the friendship, instead of leaving him for carrion.

oh, but thanks for helping our side of the arguement:p

The exciting search continues...
im with BoP on that one.

I hope BB's head exploded
mee too!

you don't wear shorts and have an alergy to razor blades do you?

Coney, have i told you that i loved you lateley? that combined with this:
Is that a giant pidgeon I see coming? It looks sick!

...made my week!

you'll have to do better than your tiresome "Jackson's movies suck" routine.

and you, child will have to do better than your "i am PJ's poppet, obey OBEY!" routine, because that is getting redunant as well.

ahh i am going to repeat myself, just because i like this line:

i love the movies, but i hate you BB.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
i love the movies, but i hate you BB.

heh heh... My sentiments exactly. Funny the giant intellect didn't get that my post was tongue-in-cheek intended to irritate him.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Funny the giant intellect didn't get that my post was tongue-in-cheek intended to irritate him. This post makes it clear that my obvious tongue-in-cheek reply went over your head. From now on, I'll use more smiley faces and winks just for you, Cirdan. See----> ;) :D

I've also got a novel idea...let's get back to talking about the THREAD TOPIC!!!!

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The death scene is very stupid. I agree 100% with your previous post Cirdan, the last hour of the film was very weak.

Gandalf's fall was brilliant writing. He falls down into the mountain (earth) fighting the Balrog (fire) lands in the lake (water) climbs the stairs to the mountain top (air) and then defeats the Balrog. Tolkien has Gandalf move through the four basic elements of the ancient world. After his return he is literally changed in both appearance and substance.

Aragorn is dragged off a cliff by a warg, is saved by a wandering horse that has no reason to be there (and inexplicably bears the name of the second king of Rohan?) and then returns without any noticeable change in character.

Yes, yes I know Breathalizer; it's even better than Tolkien.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Aragorn is...saved by a wandering horse that has no reason to be thereHmmmm...let's think about this statement of yours: A horse is seen in the land of...the horse lords. A riderless horse is hanging out in an area where...there's been battles with orcs and many Rohan soldiers have been killed.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

squinty, I don't think that Tolkien used those 4 elements: I thought he used Fire, Air, and Water.

[LuthienTinuviel]

well their IN the earth, so would suspect that that one was there as well.

and i always thought the horse would have been theodred's?
*ducks from flying objects*

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
i always thought the horse would have been theodred's?
YES!!!!!! Excellent observation, LuthienTinuviel!!!! You are really starting to see The Light. :D

[SamwiseGamgee]

It's been said a million times, but having Aragorn fall off the cliff was superfluous and silly. They might as well have had all the orcs at Helm's Deep perform a big musical number.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I guess the horse fell off the cliff as well:rolleyes: horse or no horse, it is very poor writing compared to the original. As I said before Breathalizer, I have no doubt you think this presentation absolute genius.

As for what is in the book, I don't believe that Tolkien accidently hit all four elements. Gandalf mentions two or three to give the reader enough of a hint as to the symbolism that is at work. Recounting all four in order would be remedial.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I guess the horse fell off the cliff as wellI could have sworn that I observed Aragorn floating downstream. :rolleyes:

[LuthienTinuviel]

I could have sworn that I observed Aragorn floating downstream.

and after he flaoted downstream to YET ANOTHER ROCKY AREA the horse got to him....... ??? how?

now that i think of it, in that scene if you look past aragorn, you see another cliff face.


does anyone know what river that even would have been?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've never heard of Tolkien using all four elements: The Rings were of Fire, Air, and Water, and I believe in the Silmarillion, one of the Silmarils ends up in Fire, Air, and Water. This leads me to believe, at least, that these are the elements he uses: I don't think I've ever heard of Earth as an element in his works.

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
YES!!!!!! Excellent observation, LuthienTinuviel!!!! You are really starting to see The Light. :D

gonna pretend that i DIDN'T read that for the time being...

stupid 90 second rule.
man how long IS 90 seconds anyway?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Blackbreathalizer:

Yes, unconscious people fare quite well in white water after a long fall. Truely a masterpiece!

Gwaimir:

Good point, I think you have me there, I have never noticed that before:) I still like the idea of all four, it does still work, but perhaps the fourth is accidental.

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I've never heard of Tolkien using all four elements: The Rings were of Fire, Air, and Water, and I believe in the Silmarillion, one of the Silmarils ends up in Fire, Air, and Water. This leads me to believe, at least, that these are the elements he uses: I don't think I've ever heard of Earth as an element in his works.

elves came from the earth...?

[Fingolfin_1st]

err.......maybe when aragorn fell another horse saw him fall and went round the cliff down a slope off screen and down to the waters edge to pick him up.

there had to be a bit of drama at that point in the film as it would have been too easy just to slaughter the warg riders.people who havent read the book must have been on the edge of their seats.
brilliant.

[Thingol_GreyMantle]

Am I the only one who felt Legolas's line 'You're late', was way 'kewl' ? However, this was not Bruce Willis or George Clooney but one of the Eldar race.

[Black Breathalizer]

Paul Newman & Robert Redford jump from some huge cliff into a mountain river in the classic film, "Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid."

Harrison Ford jumps from the top of a huge dam into a river in the classic film, "The Fugitive."

There's only been about a million and one "death defying" acts in the modern cinema yet we've got a few people here trying to make a big deal out of Aragorn's fall off a cliff. As action films go (and in this case a FANTASY movie to boot), this was a death defying scene that the audience could easily swallow (unless they were predisposed to find fault with the movie in the first place.)

And the BEST part of it is that because of this scene we were treated to:

The spectacular shot of Aragorn on horseback with the mountains in the background as the soundtrack plays Aragorn's Theme.

The classic lines said in the reunion of Aragorn and Legolas.

The shot of Eowyn's reaction to seeing Aragorn alive...followed by her reaction to seeing Legolas give him back the Evenstar.

The dramatic shot of Aragorn opening the doors to Theoden's chamber.

Okay, I suppose it's time for another knock out purist response like, "You are an idiot, BB. Aragorn's fall really sucked. I don't think it wuz even in the book."

[BeardofPants]

If there's been a million and one of 'em, then why did PJ go with something so generic, eh?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Harrison Ford? :rolleyes:

Perhaps Frodo will be chased out of Shelob's lair by a giant rolling ball.

[eowyngirl14]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Harrison Ford? :rolleyes:

Perhaps Frodo will be chased out of Shelob's lair by a giant rolling ball.

That would be quite funny actually!:) :)

[Black Breathalizer]

Not only did I present an irrefutable arguement, I correctly predicted the two follow-up responses to it.

Damn, I'm good. ;) :D

[BeardofPants]

It's only an irrefutable argument if you can produce empiracle, objective data. All you presented was your subjective claims (and PJ butt kissing.)

Damn, I'm good.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
elves came from the earth...?

I mean in the context of elements. Of COURSE there's earth, it's called Middle-Earth! There's earth, in the sense of soil, in at least virtually every word; naturally, there is earth, but I meant as in Earth, Air, Fire, Water.

BB: I feel I must point out that he did not "jump" from the cliff. He fell off it. And those lines were NOT classic. I highly doubt an Elf would act like that under the circumstances.

[Black Breathalizer]

Legolas: You're late. (in elvish)

Legolas: You look terrible.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
those lines were NOT classic. I highly doubt an Elf would act like that under the circumstances. LOL Gee, I wish I were an elf expert like Gwaimer. :D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I don't claim to be an Elf expert, but acting in such a manner is not something which I would think of the Elves of Middle-Earth doing.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Legolas: You're late. (in elvish)

Legolas: You look terrible.


Wow. That is clever; refuting your own arguments...

[cassiopeia]

Legolas: Your'e late. You look terrible.
Aragorn: Thank you.
Those lines are classic? :confused: I expect those kind of lines written by school children, not (apparently) intelligent scriptwriters.
When I was in the theatre, people actually laughed when Brego licked Aragorn...not the reaction you would want from such a dramatic and sorrowful moment.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I don't claim to be an Elf expert, but acting in such a manner is not something which I would think of the Elves of Middle-Earth doing. Actually, book-Legolas acted quite cheeky on some occations. Also in dramatic situations, like upon Caradhras. :)

[Black Breathalizer]

Thank you, Artanis. It's nice to know there are some people here who understand Tolkien and his characters.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I wouldn't have thought it of him, but then again, he IS a Mirkwood Elf, so I suppose so.

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Actually, book-Legolas acted quite cheeky on some occations. Also in dramatic situations, like upon Caradhras. :)
Yeah, he did. I wish they could have gotten that more into the film, also outside fangorn forest! :D But aside from that, Ive said this before but I really didnt like the 'your late' line...maybe it was the way it was delivered but it sounded so....cheesy 90's movie line....imo. ;)
~Celebréiel

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Celebréiel
Yeah, he did. I wish they could have gotten that more into the film, also outside fangorn forest! :D But aside from that, Ive said this before but I really didnt like the 'your late' line...maybe it was the way it was delivered but it sounded so....cheesy 90's movie line....imo. ;)
~Celebréiel

i didn't like that line because it made him seem like "oh i knew you were going to be ok all along" but the expression on his face after aragorns fall would illustrate otherwise.

.The spectacular shot of Aragorn on horseback with the mountains in the background as the soundtrack plays Aragorn's Theme.
The classic lines said in the reunion of Aragorn and Legolas.
The shot of Eowyn's reaction to seeing Aragorn alive...followed by her reaction to seeing Legolas give him back the Evenstar.The dramatic shot of Aragorn opening the doors to Theoden's chamber.

... all of which PJ added form his own mind, and "last i checked" PJ was not Tolkien.

It's nice to know there are some people here who understand Tolkien and his characters.
sadly your not one of them

damn, you suck.

oh and before i forget, let me add another one of your pointless tactics::D
there that way when anyone calls me on my ****, i can say it was in good humour even though im LYING THROUGH MY TEETH.

[LuthienTinuviel]

oh, Celebréiel, i wish they would have had those lines too! but hey, we got the "you would die before your stroke fell" line, so i guess that would be asking too much.:p

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
oh, Celebréiel, i wish they would have had those lines too! but hey, we got the "you would die before your stroke fell" line, so i guess that would be asking too much.:p
yeah, I guess we should be happy with what we got!(that was one of the few scenes they did pretty good! I was impressed) :) Legolas just comes off as so....blah in the movies. *shrugs*
~Celebréiel

[Nurvingiel]

Well, I only saw TTT twice, but I've had lots of time to think about them since then.

So now, the initial shock of the added scene in question has worn off. Due to this, my strong opinions have lost a small amount of their origional harshness. They have not, in essence, changed.

When I first saw Aragorn fall off a cliff for no apparent reason, I was dismayed, and thought it was stupid and badly done. It didn't fit well with the bits of the real plot. My original reaction was "What the hey!?" said much more rudely. My current opinion is "What the hey!?"

As a side note, the following Arwen dream thingy scene was just an excuse to have Liv Tyler in the movie, since Arwen wasn't in the book at all. Probably part of her contract or something. ;)

Anyway, I kind of like the reunion between Legolas and Aragorn, even though I didin't think his ride to Helm's Deep was strikingly dramatic. I still have this opinion.

Obviously, you hold Peter Jackson in high regard because he put a lot of effort into the movies, the movies are great, etc. etc. and it's totally valid to think that.

I also respect PJ, he has good ideas and is very creative, but this doesn't mean he's perfect. I think he did screw up some key plot points in TTT, but it is still a great movie.

You don't need to justify all the plot changes that PJ made, TTT won't stop being a good movie.


What it comes down to is that Tolkien is a better story teller, especially in telling his own story.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I also respect PJ, he has good ideas and is very creative, but this doesn't mean he's perfect. I think he did screw up some key plot points in TTT, but it is still a great movie.

You don't need to justify all the plot changes that PJ made, TTT won't stop being a good movie.

thats about the best synopsis on this whole silly movie debate that ive ever heard on this whole site. well spoken.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've always been a separatist. The reason: As a movie, PJ's trilogy is great, IMO. As an adaptation, it failed horrible, also IMO. But it is a great movie.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I've always been a separatist. The reason: As a movie, PJ's trilogy is great, IMO. As an adaptation, it failed horrible, also IMO. But it is a great movie. I wouldn't use the words "failed horribly" but I would accept that PJ's films are far from perfect adaptations of the books. But I would argue that any so-called PERFECT adaptation for the big screen would have been a major critical and boxoffice BOMB.

[Elfhelm]

Yes, well what they did to Dune was far worse, and what they did to Starship Troopers was pretty bad, too. I think PJ at least gets the feel and the look and the personalities right, except...

Legolas and Gimli would not abandon a fallen Aragorn. Heck, they didn't even WANT to go to Helm's Deep and were only going there because Aragorn was compelled by his sense of duty. At that point in the story, with Gandalf off on his own and Aragorn missing, they might as well have returned to Rivendell.

Also, Faramir is too traditional and respectful to disobey the Council of the Wise. PJ screwed up on that characterisation.

[The Lady of the Wood]

i didnt mind the aragorn falling thing,because of how good he looks wet.i think the movie was great as a movie, but i didnt like that some important stuff from the book was left out[/COLOR]

[Nurvingiel]

Hey, thanks a lot Insidious Rex! :)

Well BB, it doesn't look like a lot of people have changed their minds, but isn't that okay?

[Wayfarer]

But I would argue that any so-called PERFECT adaptation for the big screen would have been a major critical and boxoffice BOMB.

You may not have noticed this, but the critics have hated LOTR ever since it was published. That hasn't stopped it from becoming the most popular work of fiction ever.

The Monsters and the Critics-who cares what they think.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Well BB, it doesn't look like a lot of people have changed their minds, but isn't that okay? I was hoping there were more open-minded people here. ;) :)

Seriously, differences of opinion are good. If we all thought alike, it would be pretty boring here.
But that doesn't mean I still don't think you're DEAD WRONG. :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Or that we don't think you're dead wrong. :)

[Nurvingiel]

Even if I am dead wrong BB, this doesn't mean I'm not open-minded. :rolleyes:

Disagreeing with you should not be equated with closed-mindedness.

Actually I am a very open person, and I've always listened to your point of view respectfully. We've had some excellent debates in the past, and I hope we can still do this in the future. (I think our best one was earlier in "What people think of Two Towers (*SPOILERS*)" :) )

But enough of arguing about arguing, let's debate about what really matters: the book-to-movie transition of Tolkien's TTT!


I think our main point of contention is scenes that were changed from the original book. More specifically, I have issues with scenes where I felt the spirit of the book was lost.

I felt Aragorn's fall diverted too far off Tolkien's intended path.

Possibly, this scene is a subtle representation of an origional book scene. If not, what about this particullar scene makes it not too different from the book BB?

What does everyone think?

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I felt Aragorn's fall diverted too far off Tolkien's intended path.
Possibly, this scene is a subtle representation of an origional book scene. If not, what about this particullar scene makes it not too different from the book BB?First off, my "open-minded" comment was a joke. Regarding your question, Aragorn's fall IS different from the book and was never intended to be a literal interpretation of something from the book. I see it as the vehicle that PJ chose to visually communicate some of the book's themes and to add entertaining and emotional sequences to the movie based on this plot thread.

[Nurvingiel]

Okay, never mind about the whole open-mind thing then. ;)

This is interesting about the theme/themes. Which do you feel were represented by Aragorn's fall?

[Celebréiel]

Nurvingiel, I agree with what you said before about the theme and spirit being lost. In an interview with pj that was on again last night (did anyone see that Bravo page to screen thing?) Anywho, he was talking about and kept saying that he really wasnt gonna add his own spin on things and keep it so that all fans could love. He also said he wasnt gonna add any new things and that the more they got back to tolkien the better it was..:rolleyes: well I guess thats out the window *coughelveshelmsdeepcough* It just bugged me hearing him say that....*shrugs* This goes a little far from Aragorns fall, but still.
~Celebréiel

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Celebréiel
Anywho, he was talking about and kept saying that he really wasnt gonna add his own spin on things and keep it so that all fans could love. He also said he wasnt gonna add any new things and that the more they got back to tolkien the better it was..:rolleyes: Celebréiel

Ah... maybe he knows he fudged a little too much then, at least I think he did...

Originally posted by Celebréiel
*coughelveshelmsdeepcough*

Wassamatter Celebréiel, skateboarding Elf not Tolkien enough for ya? :D :rolleyes: :D

[eowyngirl14]

I hated Aragorns fall. It seemed pointless to me, and I will alwaysthink so. Yes, Viggo does look very very sexy wet, but that is no exuse for scaring me half to death in the theates. :) :) If I get yelled at for posting that, the nso be it.

(I like saying that... So be it!)

[Elvedans]

OOh can I join in? So be it...so be it...so be it..hey I sound like King Triton from the little Mermaid...so be it...so be it..so...

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
This is interesting about the theme/themes. Which do you feel were represented by Aragorn's fall? Theme # 1: Aragorn's status as an heir of kings / of Numenorian blood. By pulling Aragorn briefly away from his friends, the audience is given a chance to view Aragorn in a more noble fashion than before (thanks in large part to the music from Aragorn's theme).

Theme # 2: The Power of Aragorn & Arwen's love. Aragorn is able to push himself beyond pain and physical exhaustion because of the love he has for Arwen.

Theme # 3: The friendship of the three hunters. Some have argued here that Gimli and Legolas "deserted" Aragorn. But Jackson used Aragorn's supposed death to reinforce with the audience how much Legolas and Gimli cared for him. It also gave us a great reunion scene (I like it anyway.)

Theme # 4: Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn. The fall and Aragorn's supposed death gave Jackson an opportunity to show us Eowyn's reaction to it when Theoden and the remaining troops made it to Helm's Deep. We also observed her reaction when she saw that Aragorn was alive--and her reaction when he accepted the Elvenstar. Pretty powerful stuff.

Plus:

Increasing the Drama: This section of the book would have made for rather dull film viewing if Jackson hadn't have increased the drama and excitement by adding the Warg battle and Aragorn's fall.

I don't believe Jackson just said, "hey, I'm gonna change things around just for the hell of it." He would have stuck with the book's plotline IF he felt could have communicated these themes some other way.

[Lizra]

Hmmmm I like all those things! I must admit, I like Vigo's Aragorn so much, I'd watch him fly, and groove! Yes, the fall departed, but I enjoyed it none-the-less! This makes me want to see it again! :)

[eowyngirl14]

I like the fact that they added the warg battle, but I don't tink it was necisary to have Aragorn fall of a cliff.

BB, I like what you said in your last post. It really makes sense, but I still don't like his fall.:D :D

[sun-star]

Your comments on the themes are very interesting, BB. The first time I saw Aragorn's fall I cringed, and I thought it was awful (especially the part with the horse), but on a second viewing I was actually impressed. Especially with this element of it:

Theme # 1: Aragorn's status as an heir of kings / of Numenorian blood. By pulling Aragorn briefly away from his friends, the audience is given a chance to view Aragorn in a more noble fashion than before (thanks in large part to the music from Aragorn's theme).

That's absolutely true, and it's important to set it up for the audience before ROTK. Also, although I'm not normally one to look for Christ-parallels in LOTR, I couldn't avoid one here. The seen with him wandering on the horse in the desert, just before an incredibly important battle, seemed significant to me. Perhaps only to me :)

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by eowyngirl14
BB, I like what you said in your last post. It really makes sense, but I still don't like his fall.:D :D That's cool, eowyngirl14. No one here is forcing you to like it. But I still think many people (including myself) who raised their eyebrows the first time they watched it, now understand why Jackson did it. Not everyone may agree with the change but even the most diehard purist now understands there was a method behind Jackson's madness. :)

[Celebréiel]

Cant belive im saying this(its ok I just woke up). :p Okay, I guess after all that, I can understand *why* Pj decided to do this. I guess it makes a little sense to have to explain this stuff to a non-tolkien reading audience, which is what PJ has been doing all along. :rolleyes: I still hate it and dont think it was well done, but I understand why.
~Celebréiel

[Nurvingiel]

I'm with you Celébriel, I can understand the reasons that it was done, I just disagree with what was done.

I especially liked theme #3 BB, Legolas and Gimli didn't abandon him anyway, they knew he would want them to go and fight at Helm's Deep.

But Increased Drama? I definately think this is a motive to mant of the changes, but I don't think it's justified to the extent that it was done.

Increasing the Drama: This section of the book would have made for rather dull film viewing if Jackson hadn't have increased the drama and excitement by adding the Warg battle and Aragorn's fall.

Are you saying PJ doesn't have the skills to stick to the book? I think he totally has the skill, and just chose a different course of action.

TTT was definately not a boring book! It didn't need any improvement. The only times where you really need to change stuff is so the plot of the book can fit into a movie format.
TTT (book) had loads of suspense, an excellent plot, and I was riveted on every word. TTT is my favourite of all Tolien's books that I have read.

[Diamond]

I agree with Black Breathalizer. Excellent points.

The only thing that made me go "Gah!" either way was that Viggo Mortensen nearly drowned getting that footage and they only used about four seconds of it.

Di

EDIT: ::looks at her status and grins:: Indeed.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
TTT was definately not a boring book!I never said TTT was a boring book--I was talking about the book's translation to film. PJ needed to beef it up a bit and - as sun-star pointed out above - he needed to begin setting up Aragorn's rise to the throne and his marriage to Arwen.

[Nurvingiel]

I suppose I can grudgingly half-agree, but only because he was setting up future plot points.

I still think the set up could have been better done. This particular scene is too clumsy, and Arwen doesn't fit very well.

Aragorn's marriage to Arwen doesn't need any set up anyway.



:)

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Aragorn's marriage to Arwen doesn't need any set up anyway.
I disagree. I am going to bet that the emotional payoff to the wedding will be special thanks to the set-ups that PJ developed in FOTR, TTT, and what we will see in the beginning of ROTK. The wedding in the book was nice but it didn't really mean anything to the reader because we weren't given the same understanding of Arwen that PJ is giving us in the films.

[Rána Eressëa]

The first time I saw the movie, I was outraged, scanting around with a Gollum-like voice saying, "Thieves! The filthy little thieves! They've ran Aragorn off a cliff! They've killed Haldir! They've changed Faramir!"

But then I saw it again, and sure enough, "My preciousssss . . . "

[Gwaimir Windgem]

OK, BB, I don't understand: You say that PJ gave us a better understanding of Arwen then Tolkien did: How is that possible? Since she was created by Tolkien, how does PJ know enough about her to show more of her character than the person who created her? :confused:

[Rána Eressëa]

Tolkien did give us a very good understanding of Arwen --- that is, those of us who went on to read the Appendices.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I did! :p

[Diamond]

As did I, but I think if I had read all the books before seeing the movies I would have forgot about Arwen by the time she came to Minas Tirith to marry Aragorn. Seriously, she's mentioned before that moment, what, twice?

Its just a movie -- that's why they say "based on the books by J.R.R. Tolkien" (paraphrase), and not "A carbon copy of the books by J.R.R. Tolkien to the silver screen".

Di

[Wayfarer]

But the entire depth of tolkien's middle earth comes from the fact that everything is important in itself, not as a literary or plot device. Tolkien already had a good idea of what had happened throughout the history, and thus he didn't need to constantly make things up as he wrote his novels. Aragorn and Arwen is a classic example: their story has merits in itself, not merely as a way to advance the 'real' plot.

I am puzzled, though. If PJ really wanted to convey the story of tolkiens aragorn and arwen, why didn't he include more stuff from the appendices? The scene in lothlorien, particularly, would have been very good on film.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
OK, BB, I don't understand: You say that PJ gave us a better understanding of Arwen then Tolkien did: How is that possible?To put it simply: Jackson has spotlighted Arwen in the actual story more than Tolkien did. Jackson is highlighting her feelings and motivations--and making her real for the audience. Tolkien did not.

[Cirdan]

The Arwen story was never part of the main story; merely as sidebar to it. The relationship has no real impact on the story. PJs emphasis on it only makes it stick out like a sore thumb. We are given no real compelling backround for the relationship.

Take, for example the love story in Braveheart. We are given a backround of a childhood encounter during William Wallace's father's funeral. The gift of the flower is a cherished moment and a motivating factor in the young man's life. Later they reunite and there is some courtship before the dramatic separation.

Even the princess' love is cast with a backround of an arranged marriage in a foreign court, someone who feel kinship, as an outsider, with Wallace.

The relationship between Aragorn and Arwen is summed up is a conversation or two. If you go to the extended version of FotR you find him saying, yet again, that he would rather she just get on the boat with the rest of the elves. Yes, it is obvious that this is "character building" for Aragorn; willing to sacrifice for her best interest. Hardly a passionate decision by a man is love. Again in TT he is returning the evenstar and trying to give her the brush off.

The budding relationship with Eowen on the other hand is much better in the context of the story. It never disrupts the flow of the story, as the Arwen scenes do. The interaction between the two is casual during the main plot. She is the ever suffering kinfolk of the king trying to hold things together. It seems a more natural relationship in the flow of events.

A love story must have some compelling circumstance (Capulets and the Montagues, Heathcliff on the Moors, etc). I don't see missing the last? boat to Valinor as very dramatic. At least some part of the story must hinge on what happens in the relationship. It seems to be turned on it's head in this case. If the story has a happy ending and all the other plotlines work out, then maybe they can get together after all.

The emphasis in the film on the romance weakens the story over all. It should have been a bit more subtle, but instead it felt like a pothole. Too liitle screen time to be a good love story and too much for an incidental story.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
A love story must have some compelling circumstance...I don't see missing the last boat to Valinor as very dramatic. At least some part of the story must hinge on what happens in the relationship...The emphasis in the film on the romance weakens the story over all. It should have been a bit more subtle, but instead it felt like a pothole. Too little screen time to be a good love story and too much for an incidental story. If a love story about an elf woman who sacrifices her immortality for the mortal man she loves isn't dramatic I don't know what is.

One of the key "wrap-up" feel-good scenes in ROTK will be the crowning of the King and the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen. If the audience isn't given enough of Arwen to identify with her, then the wedding loses much of its emotional tug. It would be like watching the ending of Star Wars with the Princess handing out the medals to people we don't care about. It worked for the audience because we cared about Leia, Han, and Luke.

To put it another way, without PJ's focus on Arwen and the Arwen-Aragorn love story, the audience watches the wedding and thinks "this is nice, Aragorn has a Queen now" rather than an emotional "aww, these two star-crossed lovers never gave up hope despite the odds and now we get to witness their all-too-brief moment of joy and happiness." I see a HUGE difference between those two perspectives.

I hate to say it...;)...but next year at this time, I'll be saying "See? I told you so." :)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, I think that the Elves consider their immortality less of a gift than a doom.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Actually, I think that the Elves consider their immortality less of a gift than a doom. In the books, and especially in the films, Elrond wasn't too keen on his daughter sacrificing her immortality for anything less than the throne of Gondor and Arnor. So whatever the official elf view of immortality, it is clear it is considered precious.

[Artanis]

I don't think Elrond's feelings about Arwen marrying Aragorn in the book was as you put it, BB. There were probably several reasons why he would rather have it differently. I think his main motive was not to prevent her becoming a mortal, but that he understood how much his daughter would grieve at Aragorn's death.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
One of the key "wrap-up" feel-good scenes in ROTK will be the crowning of the King and the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen. If the audience isn't given enough of Arwen to identify with her, then the wedding loses much of its emotional tug.

Exactly why it won't be a complete success. Her role is stoll too minor to build enough anticipation. If RotK is backloaded with even more Arwen, then it may help the wedding but still detract even more from the main story. The problem with expanding minor parts is length and pacing problems.

...and, right or wrong, I'm sure you will still say, "I told you so.":rolleyes:

[LuthienTinuviel]

first of all, why are we even focusing this much on the wedding? the imprtant thing is : aragorn gets crowned. the wedding and arwen and the whole love story are in the deep background. the story is about frodo getting the ring to mt doom and the actoins of setting up the right circumstances for him to do this. PJ has blown up two small peices of the plot and im afraid he will not focus on the real story.

To put it simply: Jackson has spotlighted Arwen in the actual story more than Tolkien did. Jackson is highlighting her feelings and motivations--and making her real for the audience. Tolkien did not.

and if you had actually read the books, and understood them, like ANY fan, purist or not did, then you would have gotten the same meaning out of the story. just because tolkien doesn't lay it out on a platter and spoon feed it to you like PJ does, doesn't mean he neglected it.

shallower minds go for the easier way. hmmm

Actually, I think that the Elves consider their immortality less of a gift than a doom.

your right. well, maybe not doomity doom doom, but certainly not a gift.
So whatever the official elf view of immortality, it is clear it is considered precious.
because any LIFE is precious, no matter what the end of it, or length. to be alive is something to be cherished, anyone with four braincells knows that. (well maybe they don't, beacuse i don't think that anyone could survive on four brain cells, except BB.)

i think youve got three braincells, BB.... too bad that their all FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
first of all, why are we even focusing this much on the wedding? the important thing is : aragorn gets crowned. the wedding and arwen and the whole love story are in the deep background.This is true in the book and I can understand why the wedding wouldn't mean much to many Tolkienites---yet. But I will bet the farm with anyone here that the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen will be the crowning "high point" to the three films. It will become the equivalent to the medal giving ceremony at the end of Star Wars.


Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
and if you had actually read the books, and understood them, like ANY fan, purist or not did, then you would have gotten the same meaning out of the story.As usual, you are absolutely right, LT. :) But I wasn't referring to the meaning of the story of Arwen & Aragorn, I meant the emotion of it. Maybe I was unique when I read ROTK, but I didn't read about the wedding and say, "awwwwww, I am SO HAPPY for Arwen. She never lost hope--and now her and Aragorn are FINALLY together."

...yeah, I know I'm a softie. :) But I am looking forward to it. I believe the wedding will provide the film's "upbeat" emotional climax before the final tear-jerking ending at the Grey Havens.

[Cirdan]

Yes, the cheesy sitcom go-to when all other plots are used up; the wedding! At least they can't get trapped in an elevator.:rolleyes: It's still just pandering; an attempt to woo more female viewers. As if the story wasn't female friendly before (handsome men in armour- women hate that)

Does the story need more fluff? I guess if that is what you like.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Yes, the cheesy sitcom go-to when all other plots are used up; the wedding!The wedding is from the book, Cirdan. If you want to blame this plot device on somebody, it's Tolkien's fault. :D

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

some things they shouldn've left out, but i thought aragorns fall was good

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
The wedding is from the book, Cirdan. If you want to blame this plot device on somebody, it's Tolkien's fault. :D

Except it isn't a very important part of the book. It garners less than a page and is just a plot device to bring together the other players from Lothlorien and Rivendell. Arwen exists only as a part of Aragorn's story. You have read the book, right? Tolkien relegated the love story to the appendices for a reason.

[Elvellyn]

AND HALDIR DIDN'T DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know!!!!! And the elves werent even there! The Last Alliance was called the Last Alliance because it was the Last Alliance!!!:D

[Elvellyn]

And Arwen had a much more important part in he book than you suggest. Aragorn was totally stuck on her. If they hadnt gotten married, I doubt Aragorn would have married anyone else and then he would have no kids which means no heirs which means no king which means Gondor falls and then everything will have been pointless.:D

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not necessarily. The Kings stopped before, but the Stewards stepped in. I expect Faramir would have become the new Steward.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Elvellyn
And Arwen had a much more important part in he book than you suggest. Aragorn was totally stuck on her. If they hadnt gotten married, I doubt Aragorn would have married anyone else and then he would have no kids which means no heirs which means no king which means Gondor falls and then everything will have been pointless.:D

Exactly! It's needed for the heir. The wedding itself is not even described, except the arrival of the larger characters of Elrond and Galadriel. It is a nice story but it is superlous to the ideas Tolkien sought to convey, which is why he left a great deal of the love story to the appendix description. Historically important, but not critical to the plot of LotR. The actual ceremony is not even described in the book. Other than the description of the weather and the arrival of the guests, the wedding is described with one sentence, so the wedding is just as important to the plot as the Pukel-men.

[Black Breathalizer]

When reminded of the royal wedding from the book, Cirdan replied:
Except it isn't a very important part of the book. It garners less than a page and is just a plot device to bring together the other players from Lothlorien and Rivendell.Translation: Peter Jackson is supposed to follow Tolkien's story religiously--uh, except when it isn't a very important part of the book. :rolleyes:

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Translation: Peter Jackson is supposed to follow Tolkien's story religiously--uh, except when it isn't a very important part of the book. :rolleyes:

Translatation: I worship PJ and am blind to any minor flaw that anyone else perceives and must react in knee-jerk, spastic fashion with trite and worn-out arguements.

And, uh, he is following the book, but is emphasizing a minor part.

We'll see if the wedding is overblown or not.

[Diamond]

At least they can't get trapped in an elevator

I had this really disturbing idea of Peter Jackson sinking the boat to Minas Tirith. You know. To the battle. o_O Heaven forbid. I think my brain just leaked out my ears, excuse me.

Di

[Elvellyn]

So basically, Arwen is essential to the plot but not involved with it, Viggo Mortenson is sexy when wet, and Faramir really is a nice guy. Its all good!:D

[Dunadan]

What disappointed me about TTT, and to a lesser extent FOTR, was that Aragorn's character development was unresolved.

It's a major difference between the book and the films that in the latter he does not accept his destiny, whereas in the books he's been working towards it for years. I had expected Jackson to make much more of this in TTT (like he did very successfully with the Frodo/Gollum empathy) and show him realising and accepting what he must achieve. I was looking forward to this, and was disappointed when it didn't happen.

If that had been done well, it would've justified the greater emphasis on Arwen, but it wasn't so it didn't. I can only assume that this will happen in ROTK, perhaps just prior to the Paths of the Dead, which would be groovy, but I'm not holding my breath.

cheers

d.

[Cirdan]

There is a distinct philosophical difference in how characters are portrayed. The film focuses on a theme of redemption while the book is more about moral character. There is thought to be more drama in the dynamism of the "rise to the occassion" rather than "the tough get going" of Tolkien. You'll notice that there are no redemption stories at all in the book. I think Tolkien's view was that there were unavoidable consequences to weakness and evil. It works for the most part in the movies, except Aragorn is taking way too long to come about and the Ents "hasty-ness" is out of character. It's more in line with what people are used to today. Far too difficult to maintain Tolkien's level of moral ethos.;)

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Dunadan
What disappointed me about TTT, and to a lesser extent FOTR, was that Aragorn's character development was unresolved.

It's a major difference between the book and the films that in the latter he does not accept his destiny, whereas in the books he's been working towards it for years. I had expected Jackson to make much more of this in TTT (like he did very successfully with the Frodo/Gollum empathy) and show him realising and accepting what he must achieve. I was looking forward to this, and was disappointed when it didn't happen.

If that had been done well, it would've justified the greater emphasis on Arwen, but it wasn't so it didn't. I can only assume that this will happen in ROTK, perhaps just prior to the Paths of the Dead, which would be groovy, but I'm not holding my breath.You may not be holding your breath--but I'm willing to bet you're right.

Personally, I think Aragorn's character did develop in TTT. But LOTR is a three act play and it is logical for the "dramatic" aspects of Aragorn's development to take place in the final chapter. The transition from ranger to king will certainly be one of the focal points for ROTK. The fact that we didn't see Arwen at Helm's Deep or the sword-that-was-broken is clear evidence that PJ is building it all up for the grand finale.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
You may not be holding your breath--but I'm willing to bet you're right.

Personally, I think Aragorn's character did develop in TTT.
I hope so.

I've only seen the film once so may have missed it; :rolleyes: would you care to summarise how you thought he developed?

(Or point me to a page on this thread where it's already been answered - I've looked but can't seem to find it. I find it difficult to pick out the sensible discussion from the flaming on this thread :( )

Good point about character development, Cirdan. That makes a lot of sense. I guess it's one of the things people criticise Tolkien for when they don't really understand what he was trying to achieve.

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Cirdan
...and the Ents "hasty-ness" is out of character. It's more in line with what people are used to today.

Amen to that. Having Treebeard fooled into action by a hobbit was too much for me. Surely Jackson could have thought of some dramatic cool way of having them go to war against Isengard without resorting to that stunt. This was definitely a scene for the non readers.

Oh and speaking of Aragorn falling off a cliff and surviving, did anyone else get bothered by just how much the big three (Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli) always seemed to be leaping straight into the enemy, often bristling with spear heads and swords and by the freaking thousands and yet NEVER get hurt or even scratched while the enemy drops left and right like flies. Now I can accept that those three are much better combatants then any orc and I can accept that they are brave to the highest degree and have no fear of death or pain or anything and I dont really have a problem when say one of them decides yeah i can take on 40 orcs and come out ok. I actually liked that scene in the first movie where Aragorn first encounters the Uruk kai and theres DOZENS of them and he just jumps right in damn the torpedos. That was kinda cool. But I think they took it too far in the second movie. Its like there was a force field around them or something especially at Helms Deep. Really that warg battle was nice simply because Gimli gets knocked down in combat and pinned under a pile of wargs. He doesnt just mow everything down with his axe. And of course Aragorn falls off a cliff.... which we can argue about how tacky that is but at least it made 2 of the big 3 seem in relative peril for a few minutes.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
...the Ents "hasty-ness" is out of character. It's more in line with what people are used to today.It's easy to criticise Peter Jackson's hasty Ents but I would love to hear how you would have portrayed them differently for the big screen. I thought Jackson did a nice job of cutting back and forth to the Ents during their "Entmoot" to give the audience the feeling of a looooooong drawn-out discussion even though the film couldn't possibly give us the real thing.

My 15 year old daughter loved the Ents in the book...Treebeard was her favorite character. Before TTT came out, she was worried about how the Ents would be portrayed. She confided in me that if they got the Ents wrong, it would be hard for her to like the rest of the series. FYI - Her TTT review: She thought Treebeard and the Ents rocked! :)

[Cirdan]

Not much to respond to since you apparently didn't read my post or have again chosen to respond to some self-generated point. The Ents say, "we are not hasty", in the film, and yet they acy hastily in the descision to go to war. It makes them sem silly. We wouldn't want talking trees to seem silly, now would we.:P But seriously, if they truely wanted to capture the spirit of Tolkien as they claim they would have left them as is, w/o using them to boost Merry and Pippen. I see why they did it and I don't care that much about it since my expectations for the Ents part was low (very liimited screen time). At least they looked cool stomping Isengard.:)

Tolkien was fastidious about believability and tying up loose ends. PJ likes to have his characters start at one point and end up somewhere else. It's a matter of how much the events effect the character and how much the character affects events. Tolkien's characters are very defined and specific individuals are chosen for the character dynamism. Frodo is the penultimate character awash in change; molded by the events, even so, his character is centered on his moral base. PJ takes the opposite tack in having a few characters as solid rocks (ie. Arwen, Elrond, Eomer), and the rest in transition.

[eowyngirl14]

I agree with Cirdan, atleast about them seeming hasty@

[LuthienTinuviel]

useless flame:
.My 15 year old daughter
oh dear god it's raising children!

thank you and goodnight

oh BTW, im all with you Cirdan

[olsonm]

I disagree that the ents were protrayed as hasty in the movie or that they acted out of character, but agree with Cirdan about transition being important to PJ.

[Diamond]

I didn't find them hasty (if they had taken anymore time to decide, Peter Jackson would have been over his time limit), but my friend Daphne said it was amusing how Treebeard took a big, rambling speech to say how they don't say anything unless its worth taking a long time to say. :)

oh dear god it's raising children!

::toasts a marshmallow::

Di

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Cirdan
There is a distinct philosophical difference in how characters are portrayed. The film focuses on a theme of redemption while the book is more about moral character. There is thought to be more drama in the dynamism of the "rise to the occassion" rather than "the tough get going" of Tolkien.This is pure baloney. Your distinct philosophical difference between the two is primarily the difference between a film portrayal versus a book characterization. The themes Jackson illustrates are Tolkien's own. If Sam isn't a clear example of Tolkien's moral character on screen I don't know what is. Originally posted by Cirdan
The Ents say, "we are not hasty", in the film, and yet they act hastily in the decision to go to war. Wrong again. Jackson gives us the beginning of the entmoot...cut to other action...then we have Treebeard leaving the entmoot to tell Merry and Pippin that they have made a decision (long pause)...a decision that the two hobbits are not orcs. When Merry asks about the war decision, he's told not to be so hasty...cut to other action. The audience is led to believe that another LONG period of time has been spent by the entmoot in deep discussion. When we return to the entmoot, Treebeard says that they have decided not to go to war. If you're not paying attention it WOULD seem hasty, but given the medium, the Ent's slowness to action was well portrayed.

[Nurvingiel]

BB, your question on how Cirdan would have portrayed the Ents in the movie is interesting. It got me thinking...

Nurvingiel's Ent Scene, cut from TTT due to time constraints:
Author's note: I don't have a copy of TTT in front of me! I want so much to quote it! Aaa! Let's see what I can do from memory...

*After the scene that is in TTT: Merry and Pippin are set down by Treebeard, the Entmoot begins. After some time, Merry and Pippin are informed they have been introduced to the Entmoot, and it's agreed they are not orcs.*

Scene 1:

A tall, lithe ent with less branches on his head materializes from the Forest.

Treebeard: This is Quickbeam. He's already made his decision, hoom, hoom, and he will accompany you until the Entmoot is hmm concluded.

Treebeard turns away, and the Entmoot continues. Quickbeam leaves the circle, and Merry and Pippin follow.

Pippin: What did you decide Quickbeam?

Quickbeam: (Quickbeam's voice is higher than Treebeard's, but he still has a deep, slow, Entish voice.) We should go to hmm war. I knew many strong and ancient trees that were destroyed by burrarum Saruman. And many who were sleeping, but we must protect them.

Quickbeam looks sad, thinking of his murdered friends. Merry and Pippin look uncomfortable and sad.

Quickbeam: (Smiles and enty smile) But come, we will refresh ourselves at my house, and wait until the rest of the Entmoot reaches a decision.

End of Scene 1.


Scene 2:

*Quickbeam's house*

Quickbeam, Merry, and Pippin are drinking from wooden bowls. The hobbits are telling Quickbeam about the Shire.

Merry: ...most of the Shire is open, hilly country, but we do have the Old Forest.

Pippin: Quickbeam, what is this? (Holds up the bowl.) It's delicious!

Quickbeam: Entdraught! Makes young saplings grow tall and strong.

Quickbeam smiles and looks very jovial.

Merry: Have the Ents reached a decision yet? What will Treebeard do?

Pippin: I reckon it's the middle of the third day of Entmoot.

Quickbeam: The forest is awake today.

Merry and Pippin look at him quizically, Quickbeam elaborates.

Quickbeam: I can feel energy, hmm, change. I believe the Entmoot is concluded!

Quickbeam strides out the door. Merry and Pippin follow, but they are some ways behing the quick-marching Ent.

Pippin: He seems pleased, the Ents must be going to war.

Merry: (grins) Yes.

Quickbeam waits for them and the Hobbits catch up. He picks them up and sets them down, one on each shoulder.

In the background you can hear "We come, we come!" sung in deep, strong, angry voices, and much loud hooming.

Quickbeam, Merry, and Pippin meet up with all the Ents who are now marching to Isengard.

End of Scene 2.

*reinsert into the scene where the Ents go to Isengard.*

[Black Breathalizer]

Bravo, Nurvingiel. I would have enjoyed seeing your version!

[Cirdan]

Nice dramatization, Nurv! You're more motivated than myself. You got hte Entdraught in as well. I think giving Merry a speech in the Moot would satisfy PJs need for maintaining interest in him through TTT to his big moment in RotK.


Excuse me a moment, I need to take out the trash.


Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
If Sam isn't a clear example of Tolkien's moral character on screen I don't know what is.

You don't. You are completely missing the point, as usual. If you can say that Aragorn's character, made the central role in terms of screen time, hasn't been changed from a long suffering king to be, waiting for his time to ascend the throne, to an ambivelent man, uncertain about his place i the world, then you are completely absent-minded when you read a book or view a movie. Everyone has noticed the difference. That you can find an exception in Sam is weak as I already provided examples of exceptions. Is English a second language for you?

]Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
If you're not paying attention it WOULD seem hasty, but given the medium, the Ent's slowness to action was well portrayed.


Again you make my case for me. I did say the Ents were set up as averse to being hasty. Everyone, except you apparently, has noticed the change to make the Ents make up their minds about not going to war, on the spur on the moment decision (hasty), based on the emotional viewing of the destroyed forest. What movie were you watching?

Again it goes back to my original point. The characters changed in response to events instead of reacting in a predictable way. A device to heighten drama. Aragaon in the fellowship (movie) says he never wants to be king. Do you think he will change his attitude and become decisive and certain about his destiny by Return of the King? Don't rush now...:rolleyes:

I think your analysis is... a bit hasty.

[Lanelf]

The Ents go marching one by one, hurrah! hurrah!
The Ents go marching one by one, hurrah! hurrah!
The Ents go marching one by one, one of them stops to soak up the sun and they all went marching, off to destroy Isengard.
Etc, etc.

Can't you just see it?;)
Lanelf.

[Cirdan]

*hums along*

h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum,
h-hum h-hum, h-hum h-hum
hoom hum, hoom hum...

[olsonm]

The decision of the Ents to go to war wasn't hasty. They agreed that Saruman should be stopped but didn't see how it involved them personally. Until they saw the desecrated area of forest around Isengard; which they clearly didn't know about in the movie. This was the last piece of information they needed to decide to go to war. As Treebeard says in the book it doesn't take ents long to make up their minds about what to do; it only takes them long to lay out all the facts and agree on them. Well, the sight outside Isengard wasn't hard to understand and didn't need to be explained.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow thanks guys! Thank you to everyone who said nice things about me! :D I actually thought I'd get flamed for my scene - I didn't even have the book in front of me! Paraphrasing Tolkien is like doing a paint-by-number Monet. *Breathing a sigh of relief* I was happy about getting the Entdraught in there, how else are Merry and Pippin supposed to be 'uncommonly large and strong' in the Scouring of the Shire? ;)

But Cirdan, you're motivated! You always have long, detailed posts full of information, with the occasional quote to shed light on discussions.



Anyway, Sam is an excellent example of Tolkien's 'moral fiber'. Sam in the movie is the embodiment of book-Sam. However, the point being made is that Sam is the exception to the rule, not the norm.

In terms of sticking to their original book morality:

Sam = amazing, beauteous, and wonderfu;! (Did I mention Sam is my favourite character in the books? You have no idea how happy this makes me!!

Frodo = *twitch* I don't want to talk about this *twitch* *twitch*

Merry and Pippin = pretty darn good, but not enough screen time to say definitively

Legolas = great! Someone made the point that he's a bit cheeky in the book, also he's honourable, and tough - like the book! Only complaint is he's a bit too human sometimes. They missed out on that etheral elfiness.

Gandalf = the book is more in depth, but not bad at all.

Aragorn = he is okay.

Gimli = different... very different. Toss me?!?!?! Who the heck says stuff like that? (And I'm not talking about the connotations, just the stupid-line-ness.) Especially a Dwarf, who are a very proud and noble race of people.

[Cirdan]

A very diffrernt character to only go to war for personal sentiment and momentary anger. The Ents wrath in the book was cumulative with awareness of the greater importance of their actions. With all the same facts as Treebeard in the movie when he decides to go to war, the book ents still must mull over the decision. Where did all those other ents come from so quick, anyway.;)

[olsonm]

They didn't mull over the decision. Treebeard decided to go to war as soon as Merry and Pippin told him their tale. Quickbeam decided in a few hours. The other ents mulled over the facts and needed Treebeard to connect all the dots for them (again filling in info. brought by M & P). But once they had all the facts their decision didn't take long to reach.


The other ents come from a ways away. There's nothing about that shot that says how quickly they got there, but the lingering helicopter shot of the forest implied that it took more than a few moments. I agree with you Cirdan about why PJ made most of his changes (i.e. transitional characterization).

[Dunadan]

It seemed to me unnecessary for Pippin to hoodwink the Ents into going to battle. I can only think that they included it in the film to emphasise the fact that Merry and Pippin triggered the Ents into attacking Isengard. The subtlety of Tolkien's version would certainly be lost on the multiplex cattle. Or maybe they wanted to play a trick on the afficionados..

Anyway, I was a bit annoyed by it, and agree that it's out of character, but it was soooo groovy to see the Ents trashing Isengard that I can forgive it.

Not sure I can forgive the rock-throwing at the Keystone Orcs, tho..

cheers

d.

[LuthienTinuviel]

ha keystone orcs..

that's loveley.