The nature of Balrogs

[Captain Stern]

I'm sure this topic has come up over and over again, so sorry.

We have already established that no mortal could defeat a Balrog singlehandedly ( with the definite exception of Hurin and perhaps Turin ) and very few Elves could defeat MORE than 1 Balrog with the exception of Feanor, Fingolfin e.t.c

Some here have mentioned that they read somewhere that there were only 7 Balrogs all together? This really doesn't make sense to me. I mean for 7 they get around a lot don't they.

In the wars mentioned in the Silmarilion I got the impression that there must have been at least 25 Balrogs all together.

Gandalf killed 1 before he became Gandalf the White ( although I got the impression that the Balrog in Moria was weakened after remaining dormant for so long )

Ecthelion killed Gothmog.

Feanor must have killed at least 1 ( speculating but come on! )

Glorfindel killed 1.

How about the wars with the Noldor? At least 1 must have been killed during all those skirmishes and wars?

That leaves 2 Balrogs for the War of Wrath ( I have leant the Silmarilion to a friend so I can't quote form it sorry ) and doesn't it say something like " and Morgoth issued Orks and Balrogs against the host of the Vala"

What about Morgoth's personal guard?

[Captain Stern]

I know he killed the Balrog in the 3rd age so it doesn't relate to the topic I only included him to illustrate that surely there must have been more than 7 in order to survive.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

I believe its stated in the History of Middle-earth book Morgoth's Ring that there were only 7 Balrogs. I'm not sure whether to believe that or not, Tolkien changed his mid a lot. I always figured there to be a fair number(a few hundred)of them, and that only a few (7 is a reasonable number)survived the War of Wrath by fleeing to the mountains and hiding under them.

[Captain Stern]

In the Silmarilion there is no mention of other Evil Maiar except Balrogs and Sauron himself. Does this mean that every evil Maia took on the form of a Balrog? If this is the case what's the story with Sauron?

[Michael Martinez]

There is no name for other evil Maiar in The Silmarillion but they are certainly referred to. The Balrogs were simply the most feared group of his Maiaric servants. Only Sauron was more powerful and terrifying.

[Captain Stern]

something along these lines "......among these corrupted Maiar were the #~###kai or the Balrogs, Daemons of Terror."

[easterlinge]

I did ask how many Balrogs there were in Morgoth's service. I doubt Morgoth had thousands of them or the First Age would have been a walkover for him. THere can't have been that many Maiar duped by Morgoth.

25 sounds right. I'm for 40-ish. But 7 is ridiculous, even if Tolkien insisted on it. Someone mentioned 12 at the Fall of Gondolin.

[Michael Martinez]

"The Fall of Gondolin" in The Book of Lost Tales is not compatible with The Silmarillion. They are two different mythologies.

Originally there were hundreds of Balrogs, but they were not fallen Maiar. They were simply creatures made or bred by Melko (Melkor in the later mythology). The earlier Balrogs were fierce warriors but they were not as powerful as the later Balrogs. The earlier Balrogs usually worked as a cavalry force, whereas the Maiaric Balrogs didn't ride anything.

Tolkien substantially redesigned the Balrogs when he wrote The Lord of the Rings. From that point onward having hundreds or thousands of Balrogs didn't make sense. So he eventually decided there must not have been more than seven of them.

Unfortunately, JRRT never rewrote "The Fall of Gondolin", and when Christopher Tolkien wrote The Silmarillion he had to compress the older, incompatible story with an incomplete but more up-to-date beginning (published in Unfinished Tales as "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin").

Hence, you cannnot look at The Book of Lost Tales as a justification for anything concerning Balrogs. Nor can you look at it as a template for what J.R.R. Tolkien would have written. It's unlikely he would have had more than two Balrogs die at Gondolin in a rewritten story, and I'm not sure he would have had any die. The story of Glorfindel might have survived, but I don't think the story of Ecthelion and Gothmog would have been retained.

As for Morgoth's following among the Maiar, it was extensive. He had armies before there were Orcs and Trolls. The unspecified number of Maiar leaves much to the imagination, but there appear to be multitudes of them.

[Captain Stern]

That the Book of Lost Tales and The Silmarilion are wholy seperate.

I'd say that the Glorfindel slaying of a Balrog would certainly have held up if Tolkien would have written the Silmarilion independently because of his involvement in The Lod of the Rings and I'm sure it's the same Glorfindel returned from the Halls of Mandos because of his obvious mightiness and reputation in The Lord of the Rings too.

Are you saying that Ecthelion and his slaying of Gothmog had nothing to do with J.R.R Tolien? I didn't know that.

Our big problem with there only being 7 Balrogs is because of how many get killed so often and how they get around to so many places so often? Who knows maybe JRR Tolkien changed his mind realising that 7 wasn't enough. However I haven't read The HOME books or the Letters as you've done so I'm not the best judge.

[Michael Martinez]

Are you saying that Ecthelion and his slaying of Gothmog had nothing to do with J.R.R Tolien? I didn't know that.

Could you please explain that for me?

Our big problem with there only being 7 Balrogs is because of how many get killed so often and how they get around to so many places so often? Who knows maybe JRR Tolkien changed his mind realising that 7 wasn't enough. However I haven't read The HOME books or the Letters as you've done so I'm not the best judge.

You're missing the point. OFFICIALLY, we have no idea of how many Balrogs get killed anywhere.

[Captain Stern]

So you are saying that JRR Tolkien didn't write about Ecthelion killing Gothmog, it was in fact Christopher Tolkien.

I was refering to The Silmarilion as a ( unofficial cos JRR died ) finished publication about Balrogs being killed.

[Michael Martinez]

So you are saying that JRR Tolkien didn't write about Ecthelion killing Gothmog, it was in fact Christopher Tolkien.

Would you mind explaining where I said any such thing? What point is there to putting words in my mouth when what I did actually write is clearly posted above your comments?

I was refering to The Silmarilion as a ( unofficial cos JRR died ) finished publication about Balrogs being killed.

The Silmarillion is unofficial because it's not the work of J.R.R. Tolkien, it's the work of his son based on JRRT's work. Much of the material in Unfinished Tales is more canonical than The Silmarillion with respect to The Lord of the Rings because Christopher didn't change it.

And if you would check The Silmarillion, you would find that only two Balrogs get killed at Gondolin in Christopher's version of the tale anyway.

[Captain Stern]

"It's unlikely he would have had more than two Balrogs die at Gondolin in a rewritten story, and I'm not sure he would have had any die."

Sorry I must have misunderstood.

"Would you mind explaining where I said any such thing? What point is there to putting words in my mouth when what I did actually write is clearly posted above your comments?"


Hey there is no reason for you to get on you'r high horse and act so rudely furthering my belief that you suffer from "know it allism"

You frikkin Lisa Simpson of Middle Earth.

[Michael Martinez]

Hey there is no reason for you to get on you'r high horse and act so rudely furthering my belief that you suffer from "know it allism"

I was afraid, based on the rude tone of your previous comments, and the fact you were resorting to putting words into my mouth, that you were just another flamer looking for an excuse to start a fight.

I see my fear was correct. I'll be ignoring you in the future.

[Captain Stern]

I fail to see why you thought my posts were in a rude tone? That certainly not my intention.

I have not put words in to you'r mouth. I rather stupidly misunderstood something you said and questioned you further and then you jump the gun and say that I put words in to you'r mouth. Why on Earth would I put words in to you'r mouth any way?

There are few things I hate more than flame wars. I think it's a bit of a cop out and a sign of guilt you just announcing that you are going to ignore me in future and leaving with a wild flame of you'r own.

[Inoldonil]

I think I can amend this argument. You misunderstood eachother.

Captain said: "
Are you saying that Ecthelion and his slaying of Gothmog had nothing to do with J.R.R Tolien? I didn't know that."

MM responded with: Could you please explain that for me?&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
Mr. Martinez obviously didn't understand what Captain meant. Captain rephrased it;

"So you are saying that JRR Tolkien didn't write about Ecthelion killing Gothmog, it was in fact Christopher Tolkien."
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
further explaining: "I was refering to The Silmarilion as a ( unofficial cos JRR died ) finished publication about Balrogs being killed. "

Martinez I suggest did not understand Captain was rephrasing it, and thought he was just putting words in his mouth. He didn't associate the "So you are saying~" with the "I was refering~", and took the latter as the explanation and the former as something of a lie.

Captain Stern apologized, quoting what MM actually did say, which was: "It's unlikely he would have had more than two Balrogs die at Gondolin in a rewritten story, and I'm not sure he would have had any die."&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp He said he must have misunderstood.

Captain Stern probobly should have saw than where MM's words came from, that he misunderstood Stern just as he did likewize, but didn't. He thought MM was being rude, and inturn made a very rude comment about 'know it allism', which was very uncalled for. The icing was put on the cake with a further insult. Granted Stern did indeed think MM was being very rude, and I remember a past altercation where Captain claimed MM was only participating in a thread to correct mistakes. So his actions are understandable, but not justified.

The rest is history. May I suggest the argument is born of a random series of misunderstandings, and both sides made understandably rude comments? It would benefit the general feeling of this place I think if you both offer apologies and make a different end of this.

[Captain Stern]

exactly what was going on.

I appologise for being rude to you M. Martinez, the name calling was indeed uncalled for.

[easterlinge]

MM, Inoldil, the two of you sparring like that reminds me of when Gimli and Legolas entered Lorien. Next thing we'll seeing posts like:

"A plague on the stiff neck of MM!!"

or

"Now let us say, 'A plague on the stiff neck of Inoldil!'"

Now, now children, let us behave....