How Sauron was depicted

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

I found the film depiction of Sauron to be quite impressive overall. It was a smart move not showing his face. That would be very difficult to pull off IMO. That was just badass when he was swinging that mace!

I wish they could have shown Gil-Galad a little more, and maybe show his death along with Elendil's though.

The only thing that ever bothers me about that scene is when he reached down towards Isildur, I can't help thinking: YOU MORON! Why don't you just say, "Hey Isildur, could you please cut my ring off and vanquish my power?"

Still, he was very terrifying. I wouldn't mind seeing him take form briefly at the end of ROTK when he realizes Frodo is at Mount Doom. That would be awesome.

[Huan]

Ah! I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, that is kind of silly reaching for Isildur with the hand that wears the precious. My explanation would be the same as holds for all movie villains: overconfidence. Movie-Sauron probably figured that the sword broken was no longer useful against him.
Two questions from one who's read LOTR and the Silmarillion, but a few years ago, and the memory's getting rusty. 1: Isn't Isildur's (Aragorn's) sword called Anduril? In the movie, Boromir refers to the shards of Narsil. Is that another name for it, or are they making stuff up? 2: Now which one is Gil-Galad, and who's he when he's at home?

[Millane]

well first BoM i couldnt agree more with you on both counts sauron was perfect and i wished they had a bit more Gil-galad, i got a few pictures of him and they went into some pretty awesome detail only to have him cut down and stab an orc(which was still awesome if fleeting).
and for the questions Narsil was the sword when Elendil had it and when it was reforged for Aragorn it was renamed Anduril....
and as for Gil-galad he is only the best Elven King ever, he was the High King of the Noldor and the founder of Lindon and he went to war alongside Elendil in the Last Alliance and was killed by sauron...
another question about Gil-galad, i know there has been all that stuff with his father, but why when Christopher edited The Silm and Unfinished Tales, didnt he just chage it to orodreth before they were released???

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Yeah, Aragorn's sword was originally Narsil. Right now I'm reading the books for the first time in about 10 years, although I've read them several times before that.

If I'm not mistaken, Aragorn renamed Anduril, which means Flame of the West. I'll have to go back and check.

It has been quite enjoyable reading the books again after seeing the movies several times. Also, I have studied the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales in great detail recently. That really adds an extra dimension to the LOTR books. The depth of Tolkien's world is unbelievable.

[Andúril]

Balrog of Morgoth:
*snip*

If I'm not mistaken, Aragorn renamed Anduril, which means Flame of the West.

*snip*You are not mistaken. Well, I would say that Aragorn renamed Narsil, or named Andúril, but that's just me.

[Elf Girl]

I thought Sauron was good in FotR, but the whole "eye" thing in TTT was just lame. Sauron's eye is metaphorical, and exists only in the world where Ringwraiths are visable.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I thought Sauron was good in FotR, but the whole "eye" thing in TTT was just lame. Sauron's eye is metaphorical, and exists only in the world where Ringwraiths are visable.

The "eye" thing is straight from Tolkien's description of the tower of Barad-dur.

[LuthienTinuviel]

The "eye" thing is straight from Tolkien's description of the tower of Barad-dur.

lesson #1

PROVE IT.


not saying that my mind goes to ither side, im just asking you to maybe make an effort to back yourself up, instead of releying on us to trust you blindly.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
lesson #1

PROVE IT.


not saying that my mind goes to ither side, im just asking you to maybe make an effort to back yourself up, instead of releying on us to trust you blindly.

Well the same goes for the person that said the "eye" didn't exist and was only said metaphorically...

[Huan]

I agree that TTT kind of overdoes the Eye as an actual presence. I think it's meant to tie Barad-Dur more prominently into the scheme of things, so they can justify the title The Two Towers to non-reading audiences (them again!).

[Elf Girl]

Well, I said the Eye doesn't pysically exist, because A. In the Letters, Tolkien says that during the War of the Ring, Sauron appeared as a man robed in black, B. I don't recall any physical Eye in the books, though I may be mistaken, and C. Tolkien would never do anything as heavy-handed as put the looking all electric between two prongs of a tower.

I have backed up my opinion, please back up yours, Black Breathalizer.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

I'm not sure of this, but I would say that since they showed Sauron's physical form being destroyed in the Last Alliance, they sort of trapped theirselves into showing him as "the eye of Sauron."

In the movie, Saruman says "He is not yet able to take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of its potency." (Or something like that)

I'm not totally crazy about it either, but oh well. Like I said earlier, I hope to see him take form again before the end.

[Black Breathalizer]

Okay, I will. It is from the Return of the King.

I'll find it and quote it. I thought in a land of Tolkien Purists I wouldn't have to quote Tolkien to you all. :)

[Black Breathalizer]

Good morning, Class. Professor Blackie is here to provide you with Tolkien's description of Barad-dur:Quote # 1 Originally written by J.R.R. Tolkien in The Return of the King describing Sauron's Road:
Out from the Dark Tower's huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up to the Mountain's eastern side. Thence, turning and encircling all its wide girth from south to noth, it climbed at least, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron's shadow-mantled fortress. Quote # 2 Originally written by J.R.R. Tolkien:
Far off the shadows of Sauron hung: but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment, drew aside; and then he (Sam) saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast topmost tower of Barad-dur. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. If some of you view the "eye thing" as metaphysical, that's your right. But Jackson's view of Barad-dur is consistent with these two Tolkien passages. Class dismissed. :D

[Elf Girl]

Very well then, I will continue seeing it as metaphysical.;)

[Dúnedain]

Here is another passage, this is from Fellowship:

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir - he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.

I can see both points here, but to me, I think seeing the eye the way it was & is portrayed in the movie gives it more feel for what Tolkien writes, plus I think it is a neat concept :D


/me nudges Elf Girl :p

[Black Breathalizer]

I will admit to Elf Girl that I, too, viewed the Eye as metaphysical every time I read the Trilogy before this movie. But I LOVED what the WETA crew did in designing Barad-dur. Metaphysical is okay for books but that Eye design atop the tower was thrilling to see.

It will also make ROTK even more dramatic to the audience. The idea of Frodo and Sam walking across the plateau of Gorgoroth with that damn Eye in the distance will give the audience the same feeling that readers had of the hobbits walking to the Cracks of Doom right under the Dark Lord's nose.

[Elf Girl]

Dúnedain, in my opinion your quote proves my point. The Eye seems very metaphysical there.

BB, I am a purist. I also dislike putting technology in the same context as LotR, so the high-tech, electric-looking Eye put me off a bit.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Dúnedain, in my opinion your quote proves my point. The Eye seems very metaphysical there. BB, I am a purist. I also dislike putting technology in the same context as LotR, so the high-tech, electric-looking Eye put me off a bit. Excuse me, Elf Girl, but the point is NOT that YOU CAN'T view the Eye as metaphysical. The point is that you and others can't blast Jackson for giving it a physical presence because - as I so brilliantly and flawlessly proved above - it is IN Tolkien. :D

I would add that it is only your opinion that the Eye is "high-tech, electric-looking." Others can look at the same pictures of Barad-dur and see the magic of Middle-Earth and the power of Sauron that Tolkien described.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I also dislike putting technology in the same context as LotR, so the high-tech, electric-looking Eye put me off a bit. Funny you should say that, I also thought of technology when I saw the eye of Sauron between the spikes on top of Barad-Dur. It reminded me of poles enabling some sort of power exchange in between, thus creating the picture of the eye. Imo this seems fitting for a Dark Lord in PJ's universe, where technology is a no-no.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Artanis
It reminded me of poles enabling some sort of power exchange in between, thus creating the picture of the eye. Imo this seems fitting for a Dark Lord in PJ's universe, where technology is a no-no. It would be just as true of Tolkien's universe and his industry versus nature theme as well.

[Artanis]

You're right, but in the books this is one theme among others, and not a very significant theme imo. In the movie PJ made it much more distinctive.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Artanis
You're right, but in the books this is one theme among others, and not a very significant theme imo. In the movie PJ made it much more distinctive. I disagree. I would argue that the machine versus nature theme was THE overriding theme of his books and the one Tolkien was most passionate about communicating.

[Artanis]

But that discussion does not belong in this forum.... :)

[Black Breathalizer]

Artanis: The discussion does belong here when you say that PJ exaggerated this point in his movie. :)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Dúnedain, in my opinion your quote proves my point. The Eye seems very metaphysical there.

BB, I am a purist. I also dislike putting technology in the same context as LotR, so the high-tech, electric-looking Eye put me off a bit.

I will get you to open your mind, if by life or death I will prote...whoops sorry went into Aragorn quotes for a moment :p

[straight_face]

Yes, it angered me a bit when I saw the Eye of Sauron atop Barad-dur. Was that caused by some electrical force that the Orcs were working inside the tower or what? Perhaps there is a large plug that keeps the eye lit, such as a lightbulb. *laughs at mental images of an Orc accidentally tripping over the chord and unplugging the plug*
OrcSlaveDriver: Great. There goes Sauron, completely down the drain!
ClumsyOrc: Whoops. Um, does that mean we're free?

So... what causes this electrical manuveur on the points of the Tower? Is Sauron's eyeball his whole spirit? What if there really is a colossal plug? Hmm....:confused:

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The "eye" of Sauron can only be symbolic in Tolkien's Middle Earth mythology. Tolkien has said that Sauron was "the form of a large man" during the war of the ring. He has said in The silmarillion that the "eye contained malice", which means it must be conscious. Therefore, if the eye is real then Sauron is two separate and simultaneous physical incarnations. No spirit in all the mythology has ever had two separate, conscious simultaneous physical forms.

Jackson has repeatedly discussed the problems that stem from "The fact that the film's villain is a "disembodied eye" which clearly indicates they were unaware of Tolkien's statement in Letters which describe Sauron's physical form during the story. They only looked at the descriptions in the book which are incomplete and easily misunderstood (That is Why A.E. Tyler thought Sauron was an elf in his middle earth guide, and why readers sent letters to Tolkien asking him to clarify aspects of Sauron; letters he answered and that have been published). If you read the quotes from the book which are posted above you will notice the eye is "inside the tower" and it is conscious (it is searching). There can be no confusion. Based on Tolkien's own mythology; that is Sauron in the tower, and the eye is in his head, right where it belongs.

[Black Breathalizer]

I disagree with you, squinteyedsoutherner.

If Saruman can breed super orcs and Gandalf can come back from the dead, I think it's very much within the logic of Middle-earth for Sauron to conjure up a magical eye at the top of his tower that gives him the ability to see for great distances.

My understanding is that Jackson will show Sauron in humanoid form in the next movie by the way.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I would not be surprised if Jackson does include Sauron in the next film. I think he is now aware that his own words (which he spoke in the commentary to Fellowship, and which CLEARLY indicate he was not aware that Sauron was "a large man shape") as well as his depiction of the eye on top of the tower were at odds with Tolkien. Reshooting has been going on since the first film was released.

If the eye contains " Sauron's malice" it is conscious, and cannot exist while Sauron has another shape in Tolkien's middle earth. The screenwriters misunderstood the passages, and so have you.

As for the "death" of Gandalf, you need to read Letters, but let it suffice to say that Gandalf the grey and Gandalf the white did not co-exist.

[Black Breathalizer]

You are entitled to your opinion, squinteyedsoutherner. But the notion that Jackson didn't understand Sauron is just plain ridiculous. Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens spent three years studying each one of Tolkien's characters in depth when they were preparing the screenplays. The fact is that they know Tolkien's work far better than you, me, or anyone on this board.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himslf a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power, and the malice of the eye of Sauron few even of the great among elves and men could endure."


The Silmarillion


Notice Tolkien is refering to the "eye" in a previous incarnation, (before the ring was cut), in a paragraph describing Sauron's "physical rebirth" into Middle Earth. The eye is intrinsic to Sauron, part of the terror of what he is.

The screenwriters may have worked very hard, but I am reminded of a quote a novelist friend of mine is fond of saying.

"It is just as hard to write a bad novel as it is to write a good one, the only difference is talent"

Tolkien had a wonderful, individual, and truely talented voice. The screen writers..........well.................something a little less.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
If the eye contains " Sauron's malice" it is conscious, and cannot exist while Sauron has another shape in Tolkien's middle earth. Why is this not possible in Tolkien's Middle-Earth? Seems to me that The Eye is simply another type of Palantir-like magic created by Sauron.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I'm not going to argue this to death. Neither a Palantir nor Galadriel's mirror contain a conscious thought process. The Eye is Tolkien's way of describing the terror that is Sauron, over multiple manifestations, not just the War of the ring. The Eye was not "constructed" or "conjured" it is part Sauron and his power. I think this is clear in the Silmarillion description. The screenwriters misunderstood the text in the Lord of the Rings when they put a burning eye atop Barad-dur, and this was plainly clear in Jackson's comments on the Fellowship commentary.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
I would not be surprised if Jackson does include Sauron in the next film. I think he is now aware that his own words (which he spoke in the commentary to Fellowship, and which CLEARLY indicate he was not aware that Sauron was "a large man shape") as well as his depiction of the eye on top of the tower were at odds with Tolkien. Reshooting has been going on since the first film was released.

If the eye contains " Sauron's malice" it is conscious, and cannot exist while Sauron has another shape in Tolkien's middle earth. The screenwriters misunderstood the passages, and so have you.

As for the "death" of Gandalf, you need to read Letters, but let it suffice to say that Gandalf the grey and Gandalf the white did not co-exist.

Actually I think you misunderstand the screenwriters. First of all, one of the writers is one of the biggest fans of Tolkien and has read his works in and out. Second, Sauron at this point still has not taken shape if I remember correctly. Third, remember in the prologue to FotR, they showed Sauron and he was clearly "a large man shape" as you pointed out above. Fourth, Sauron is listed as part of the cast for RotK.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
"There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himslf a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power, and the malice of the eye of Sauron few even of the great among elves and men could endure."


Major difference here bro, at this point Sauron had a form, as the ring was in his presence. When he didn't have the ring, he had no form....

[Dúnedain]

Another way to look at the Eye atop the tower is that the filmakers could have included that to show the "metaphysical" eye, but they wanted to convey it to the audience, 75% of which never heard of Tolkien or Sauron's eye previously...

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Sauron had his physical shape for the whole book. That is a fact.

I posted the earlier account from the Silmarillion to show that Tolkien used the "eye" in reference to Sauron in a previous incarnation because the "eye" is intrinsic to Sauron, not something he built in the third age.

later......

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Sauron had his physical shape for the whole book. That is a fact.


Mind pointing this fact out?

[Black Breathalizer]

The winner of this bout and STIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL heavyweight champion of the woooooooorld.... Dúnedain!!! :D

[cassiopeia]

In the letters of Tolkien, referring to a confrontation between Sauron and the ringbearer that:
The form that he [Sauron] took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.
Also, Gollum says in TTT that:
'He has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough'
I think the evidence is strong that Sauron did have a physical form during the LOTR.

[BeardofPants]

Yes but perhaps this mechanical eye/palantir thing had fingers? :rolleyes:

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Sauron can take form without the ring, and he did, in Mirkwood before he fled to Mordor, he also had the ring without a form after the fall of Numenor.

"There he took up again his great ring in Barad-Dur and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought for himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible, and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure"

The Silmarillion

The Eye is part of the physical description of Sauron in more than one place in the text, and in more than one incarnation of his spirit. Notice also, that in the TTT chapter Uruk-hai, the orcs refer to Sauron as the "great eye", and refer to Saruman as the "white hand". Perhaps a great waving white hand should be depicted above Orthanc.

Dunedain; Tolkien said Sauron had a physical form during the lord of the Rings, there is nothing to debate here but one's ability to cling to a hypothesis after it has been disproven.

Dunedain and Breathalizer, you guys need to read letters and perhaps the Silmarillion as well. This is getting tedious as much of what you both argue is contrary to those sources; and much of what you question is clearly discussed in those texts.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Sauron can take form without the ring, and he did, in Mirkwood before he fled to Mordor, he also had the ring without a form after the fall of Numenor.

"There he took up again his great ring in Barad-Dur and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought for himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible, and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure"

The Silmarillion

The Eye is part of the physical description of Sauron in more than one place in the text, and in more than one incarnation of his spirit. Notice also, that in the TTT chapter Uruk-hai, the orcs refer to Sauron as the "great eye", and refer to Saruman as the "white hand". Perhaps a great waving white hand should be depicted above Orthanc.

Dunedain; Tolkien said Sauron had a physical form during the lord of the Rings, there is nothing to debate here but one's ability to cling to a hypothesis after it has been disproven.

Dunedain and Breathalizer, you guys need to read letters and perhaps the Silmarillion as well. This is getting tedious as much of what you both argue is contrary to those sources; and much of what you question is clearly discussed in those texts.

First of all, I am not arguing at all, I simply asked for a passage about his form, because I don't remember reading it, when cassi showed those exampled I remember reading the Gollum thing where he talked of Sauron having 4 fingers. My whole thing here is that in the film the eye is there for the audience to see, to show the importance and that Sauron is ever watchful. I honestly like the interpretation for the movie-going perspective as it adds an element to the character and an evil part that the hobbits need to overcome. Like I said, I am in no way arguing with you, I just thought that both points should be stated, as each had open ends to them. I totally understand where you are coming from and what you are saying, however IMHO, I prefer the eye on the towers as it just adds extra elements for me and was something I never thought of until I saw it....

[Noahamir]

When I saw the movie, I thought that Peter was just showing the eye metaphysically to the audience, not as an actual embodiment of Sauron.

The first time you see the Eye atop the tower is when Frodo gasps in agony and grabs the ring at his chest as he looks toward Mordor. The camera quickly zooms in toward Mordor and scales up the tower to the Eye at the top as if you are looking through Frodo's eyes in terror.

I clearly thought Peter meant this to be some special enhanced wraith-world vision of Frodo's as he held the ring.

I think that Peter will show Sauron as something different than an eye in ROTK when Sauron talks to Pippin through the Palantir. I think this would be the best time and most true to the book.

[straight_face]

I wouldn't count on actually seeing the Palatir- they'll probably cut it out of the movie completely.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Has anyone ever thought it odd that when Sauron's ring was cut off, everything about him was vaporized...except his helm. This was an awesome effect, seeing it smash to the ground, just a little illogical. Maybe they should have had his mace hit the ground too. Or maybe all of his armor come crashing down.

I still have to say that overall, they did a great job in realizing the terror of his presence.

Regarding the whole eye thing, I am re-reading the books right now, and Tolkien does refer to Sauron almost exclusively as "the eye" or something to that effect. I can see where Jackson was in a predicament as to how to show him. I don't think he had any choice but to take the course that he took.

Maybe Tolkien was himself at odds about how Sauron appeared. I have read most of his letters, and his style was to write first, and then analyze the reasoning later, such as the reincarnation of Glorfindel. He did not decide that he had reincarnated until it was brought to his attention that he had produced a duplicate name. I could be that Tolkien had conflicting ideas himself about the whole thing.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
Regarding the whole eye thing, I am re-reading the books right now, and Tolkien does refer to Sauron almost exclusively as "the eye" or something to that effect. I can see where Jackson was in a predicament as to how to show him. I don't think he had any choice but to take the course that he took.


Well I think it works just fine the way it is. I mean Sauron isnt yet strong enough to take physical form and I really dont want to see some human shaped guy pacing around in his tower contemplating his moves like a two bit general or something. An image like that would immediatly limit how powerful I can see him. I mean do you really want him to look like darth vader? no thanks. i didnt even like it when they had him laughing at pippen when he looks into the palantir. he should be beyond such petty displays. he should be an omniscient unwavering super being of tremendous intelligence and unmeasurable evil. The point is he is SEEING all over middle earth he is SEEING inside the minds of different people. He is trying to FIND his ring trying to FIND weaknesses trying to SEE everything he can SEE. And hes big and bad and evil and what better way to wrap all this up into one package then by making him this ominious unblinking eye of fire. hellish and evil and nightmarish and perfectly symbolic.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
Regarding the whole eye thing, I am re-reading the books right now, and Tolkien does refer to Sauron almost exclusively as "the eye" or something to that effect. I can see where Jackson was in a predicament as to how to show him. I don't think he had any choice but to take the course that he took.

Maybe Tolkien was himself at odds about how Sauron appeared. I have read most of his letters, and his style was to write first, and then analyze the reasoning later, such as the reincarnation of Glorfindel. He did not decide that he had reincarnated until it was brought to his attention that he had produced a duplicate name. I could be that Tolkien had conflicting ideas himself about the whole thing.

Very good points, I agree with you on this...

[Lizra]

I'll try again.......Sauron's appearance mentioned here.

www.tolkienonline.com/movies/changes_rotk.cfm

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Lizra
I'll try again.......Sauron's appearance mentioned here.

www.tolkienonline.com/movie/changes-rotk.cfm

Link doesn't work....

[Lizra]

sorry! Try it now.