Feanor and the Silmarils

[bmilder]

Do you think Feanor made the right choice in leaving Valinor for Middle Earth? I think he had the right to leave, but certainly didn't have the right to do the Kinslaying. Of course, had he not come to Middle Earth, the whole LotR story wouldn't have happened. (Forgive me if I've gotten my facts wrong, I'm pulling them from memory, as my copy of the Sil has vanished ;))

[Eruve]

If you want to look at things from moral perspective, of course he made the wrong choice! But then, as you say, we wouldn't have a story...

[Darth Tater]

In terms of an interesting book his leaving was necessary. Evil must always be present and prevail in certain points in a story for it to be intersting (sounds kinda harsh, but just think about it, it's true). However, if we were to think about this as a factual account he obviously made the wrong choice. Morgoth (or Melkor, whatever) had put untrue thoughts in his mind, and he chose to accept them, as did many of the other elves. This, IMO, is Tolkien's version of Original Sin, Melkor being the satanic/serpent figure, and Feanor being the Adam or Eve. Because of this "Original Sin" his whole race was doomed to suffer, and was seperated, in a way, from their gods, just as in the Bible when Adam and Eve were cast out of Paradise and estranged somewhat from God until the Saviour came. Don't take this as a religious post, it is a known fact that Tolkien based his writting largely on the Bible, this is ment as a factual literary analysis, not a religious statement.

[anduin]

Have no fear Tater, you don't have to justify your posts here..... :) BTW, I thought that was a nice analogy....good work :)

[Elanor]

Yes, very interesting. Well, I'm afraid that I personally detest Feanor. You may go on for ages about how subtle and artistic and intelligent he was, but to be frank, he was a jerk. I had to make 3 tries to get through the Silmarillion just because I couldn't stand to read about Feanor. I find the parts of the Silmarillion that many see as exhilarating or fascinating, pretentious and disgusting. So just from that perspective, you could say Tolkien made a mistake by including this proud, violent, and vindictive elf. But when I finally did get past that hump and read the rest of the stories, I felt a great sense of contrast, and could appreciate the depth of Fingon's friendship for Maedhros, the elves' contentions and relationships, the final relief when the Silmarils are lost, and the hurtful cleansing of the world over time from the pain of Morgoth. I still wish Feanor had been easier to stomach, but his story is necessary to the saga of Middle Earth. As far as leaving Aman, it was his choice, and although so many of his despicable actions were related to this choice, the actual departure wasn't really bad. I think that if he had just left, alone, by the ice route, after Morgoth stole the Sils, everything would have been fine. No oath (at least not for his sons), no kinslaying, no abandoning family and burning boats, and a whole lot less war! Of course it was these choices that led to the presence of elves in ME in the third age, but that doesn't justify his actions. There's a big difference in actions being necessary to the story--and being right!

[Fat middle]

Good analogy Tater! I´d like to add my 2 cents: i see the light of the Valinorean Trees as an image of the Grace. Before the "original sin" elfs live in Grace. The death of the trees and the robbing of the Silmarils mark the beginning of a new status quo: the fallen nature. The restoring of the light of the silmarils by Earendil is the image of the final status: the new hope for the fallen and the restoring of the way back to "Grace-land".

[Darth Tater]

Very true Fat middle. You have basically stated why I beleive Feanor was necessary. Until his "original sin" the elves seemed so high and mighty, almost perfect. He illustrated that even the great can fall, or fallen nature as you said.

[Eruve]

Not just great but the greatest. Unlike Elanor, I don't hate Feanor. In a way I feel regret for him. He had the most potential to do great things among the Noldor and instead he threw all that away to wage a hopeless war and, in the process, managed to drag the greater part of his people down with him. He was the one with the farthest to fall, and he did.

[Darth Tater]

Pardon my for getting picky, but Melkor had the farthest to fall (Lucifer), but Feanor had the farthest to fall among the children of Iluvatar (Adam).

[Eruve]

Sorry I wasn't specific enough; that's what I meant. Feanor, of all the Noldor, had the farthest to fall.

[Elanor]

I guess I shouldn't have said I detest Feanor. You're right about his potential, and I don't really hate him, but feel intense regret for his character and antipathy towards most of his attitudes and actions. I also really don't like the idea of a "tragic hero", and most of them are not very admirable to me. In my religion we have a very different view of the Fall, that it brought not "original sin", but corruptibility and reproduction, which were necessary to the plan of salvation. Otherwise we would not be able to exist on Earth or progress through troubles as we must, so the Fall was a good thing. So I see fewer parallels to Feanor's story which was just one big mistake, although Tolkien very well may have intended some likeness. He has said, "I dislike allegory whenever I smell it", and I generally try to avoid looking for allegories in his stories because of that (although some are too prominent to deny), but it is a fairly close parallel in some ways.

[Fat middle]

I´ve always thought that quote of Tolkien was a way for marking distances with the work of his friend C.S. Lewis. Lewis was a religion apologist. He has many apologetic (sorry, i don´t know if that word also mean "defence" in English) essays and i think that the true meaning of his phantasy books (which are very allegoric) can only be understand under an apologetic background. The religion apologists were very frequent in Tolkien´s times and tolkien himself was very close to the tradition of John Henry Newman, perhaps the first huge modern apologist. But i think that he didn´t like to be an apologist as a literary author, and he wanted to make differences between his works and those others. That´s why, i think, he said that of allegories, but nobody can say that the his books aren´t someway a mirror of the greatest human affairs. Hmmm, this has sounded too serious. I need a :P to end. :)

[Darth Tater]

Fat middle, taht's exactly what the word means. Elanor, that's very interesting. In a sense his fall was a good thing, since it did bring the Noldor to Middle Earth. However, you're right, your way of looking at it has many less parallel's.

[Eruve]

I wouldn't say Feanor is a tragic hero. Anti-hero is more like it...

[Finduilas]

I feel that the Oath of Feanor and the Doom of the Noldor are two of the most dramatic scenes in the Silmarillion. I use them for the beginning in my section on the Silmarillion, just to set the mood. Totally off topic, but what are the "rules" for adding quotes here? I find that they differ from place to place and do not want to make any mistakes.

[bmilder]

Rules for adding quotes? Maybe I don't understand you correctly, but I have no problem with you quoting anything :) You can put anything from the books here, we're not going to tell the copyright police :D

[Elanor]

Unless you misquote...Then we'll getcha! ;)

[Finduilas]

Good luck. I haven't misquoted Tolkien for at least a year. :) Another thought on this topic is that the return of the Noldor was necissary for a couple of reasons, including a lot of the teaching of the Edain, for the Noldor had more knowledge that the Sindar and the Avari did not. Also it was through this that the elvish strain was introduced into the Dunedain (see Letters by J.R.R. Tolkien)

[Quaff Down Gin]

The Silmarils are extremely beautiful in and of themselves, but are perilous when in the posession of any beings within Arda. I just don't think that one is supposed to be able to bottle the Light of "heaven" and posess it, as is evident throughout the histories of the Simarillion. Peril follows in the footsteps of these beautiful and hallowed jewels. Feanor shaped them from the Light of the Two Trees, something that nobody had ever done, not even the Valar, and when they asked for the Silmarils back in order to destroy them and restore the Trees, he was driven to a madness that could not be overcome, the madness of the Creator who is on the verge of losing his "children" forever. He is also being asked for them by the Valar, the "gods" who it has been rumored amongst some of the Noldor are holding the Eldar in thralldom and keeping them from branching out into the world and making a paradise that would rival or surpass Valinor, itself. If only Feanor had realized that, although the Silmarils were the emobiment of beauty, the Two Trees surpassed them by leaps and bounds and were the lifeblood of Arda, and that the best work of his creation would have been the sacrifice of the Silmarils for the remaking of the Trees which are now forever lost. But Feanor was driven mad by the lies that Melkor planted amongst the Noldor, and feanor ended up resembling Melkor when he made the tragic oath: "'...we will never turn back from pursuit. After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be Lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!' ...[Then] They swore an oath... even by the name of Iluvatar, calling the everlasting dark upon them if they kept it not. And Manwe they named in witness, and Varda... vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature... that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmarilfrom their posession." Feanor, it could be argued is the elves version of Melkor, although not quite as evil, for he was in the end a servant of Melkor rather than his own master, much like Sauron in later days.

[Finduilas]

That quote is one of the most dramatic moments in the Silmarillion. In full it is: Then Feanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightaway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by even the name of Iluvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwe they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession. Thus spoke Maedhros and Maglor and Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir, Amrod and Amras, princes of the Noldor; and many quailed to hear the dread words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end. Also, it was not so much Feanor that became the worker of evil, though yes he did cause much evil such as the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, but his sons. For the doom of the Noldor drove them all: Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the moutains. On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Disposessed shall they be forever. Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken. His sons did many evil deeds of their own, such as the slaying of Dior in his own halls. Also I would say that the Doom of the Noldor encompased the Silmarils themselves, as the dwarven murder of Thingol shows.

[Elanor]

wow. Two whammies in a row! Now I feel tempted to take an oath to never take any oaths to get revenge on anybody. Nobody take any oaths like that, okay? They just give you big problems. And if you ever make any really fancy jewels and then some really powerful people want to take them back to save some trees, just give in! It's not that important. Trees are more important than jewels.

[Finduilas]

I cheated a bit quoting there. The quotes were already on my webpage so copy and paste and I can use them here. :) The rest of the message took all of 10 min to do.

[Quaff Down Gin]

...or make ANY oaths until my dying day!

[Darth Tater]

I agree with what Finduilas said, or started to say. The Silmaril's where something not even the "gods" could comprehend, I think Iluvitar was probably the only one who did.

[Taimar]

I know no-one has posted on this thread for quite a while, but as I have just joined this forum I hope no-one feels I am going over old ground.

People seem to view Feanor`s actions rather negatively. There seems to be a feeling that the theft of the Silmarils was the only reason for him pursuing his hopeless vendetta against Morgoth. I think this is wrong. The main reason was the death of his father, who was "dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands." As the High King of the Noldor he had the right to lead his people in search of justifiable vengeance. Some of his later actions, especially the Kinslaying, are impossible to justify, but needs must as the devil drives, as they say.

If Finwe had not been slain by Morgoth, then Feanor would not have been High King and therefore would not had the authority to lead the Noldor to Middle-Earth. From what we know of Finwe, he most likely would have obeyed the wishes of the Valar and stayed in Valinor. I think it unlikely that Feanor would have disobeyed his father even under these extreme circumstances.

So, mere covetousness of the Silmarils, whilst a motivating factor, were not the main reason for Feanor`s actions after the events at Formenos. If someone killed your father, would you sit at home twiddling your thumbs, or would you hound them to the ends of the earth? I know what I would do.

[Finduilas]

Good point!
However, if you look at his actions after Morgoth was released in Valinor, you can see where many other actions of his lead to the attitude we have.

[Darth Tater]

Th seed of evil was planted in him, that is what matters. Yes, the death of his father is an excuse for what Feanor did, but Melkor's wisperings of evil were what pushed him over the edge, and his lust for the Silmarils was what really mattered to him.

[easterlinge]

A bit overlate, but here goes.

Suppose Feanor agreed to give up a Silmaril? Then he finds his father murdered, the jewels gone.

He would still go to war against Morgoth, but he'd have the Valar's blessing. Heck, Tulkas and Orome would come over to Beleriand themselves. The whole kinslaying feud murder thing would have been unnecessary.

[X Rogue]

That depends partly on how you look at fate, the themes sung by the Ainur during the song of creation, and on Feanor's character too. Had Feanor been capable of allowing the use of the Silmarils to save the trees, he might not have run after Melkor in the heat of his own (well justified) grief and gotten himself and many others killed. Of course, we can argue the Silmarils could not have been used anyway since they had already been stolen, but Feanor had no way of knowing that. Note, the Valar had not said they wouldn't go after Melkor, just that time was needed to prepare.

As for fate and the song of creation, it is possible to argue that Feanor was born/created to be the most brilliant of the Noldorin Elves, and their downfall as well, so that Melkor ( and Sauron after him ) might be defeated. Can it be argued that we can turn from our fate and the evil that may come from it? Certainly. Feanor disciplined himself to master so many of the arts of his people, he was trained to rule in case he should become High King. He could have overcome that fate, had he not taken the first step of listening to the poison Melkor whispered in his ears.

[easterlinge]

I guess that was the tragedy. If Feanor had just a bit of self-restraint.... the Elves certainly lacked Zen in those days. Learning too much from Aule and too little from Nienna and Mandos. Clever but not wise.

NOte that among the Istari (each affiliated with some Vala) later sent, it was Saruman (sent by Aule) that failed. Something about the mentality of Aule's disciples (and possibly Aule himself)? SAuron was originally affiliated with Aule, wasn't he? And I seem to recall that Aule was the one most like Melkor in skill?

I suppose Gandalf and the rest were sent over partly to stop the High Elves from carrying out more rash actions, after that debacle with the Rings of Power. If the Elves were still rash after all that suffering, how does one expect short-lived Men to become wiser than the Firstborn?

Ai, if only there was a Buddha of Middle-Earth... Maybe Alatar or Pallando filled that role.