Balrog fight in the TTT

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

I have always been fascinated by Balrogs. I think they did an excellant job of capturing the terror of them on the screen, although the size and wings/no wings of the flaming Maiar could be debated.

I loved the fight between the Balrog and Gandalf, but I was a little surprised that they went from showing them crash to the depths of Moria and then straight to the peak during Gandalf's recollection. Do you suppose some footage of the endless stair may make the extended cut? I certainly hope so.

I was also slightly disappointed at how seemingly easy the Balrog was slain. If I'm not mistaken, the fight was to have lasted several days. On the other hand, if some of the great Elf Lords of the First Age were able to hold their own and even defeat Balrogs in some instances (Glorfindel and Ecthelion), then it would seem that Gandalf would certainly have the power to kill one, especially when wielding a sword forged in Gondolin.

I'm sorry for rambling, but Balrogs do greatly interest me.
Any thoughts?

[Lady of Rohan]

I liked the Balrog fight at the begining too!:) Yes, I do hope they have some sences of the endless stair in the extended version.:D

[Noahamir]

I don't know how long Peter Jackson thought the Balrog fight lasted for his movie in real time, but I think he meant for the Lightning Bolt that electrified Glamdring right before the finishing blow was to be a major reason that Gandalf was finally able to beat the Balrog!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
I was also slightly disappointed at how seemingly easy the Balrog was slain. If I'm not mistaken, the fight was to have lasted several days.... I'm sorry for rambling, but Balrogs do greatly interest me.
Any thoughts?

Well it certainly could have been going on for days we just never saw it all. They just gave us the end where it is finally killed. And yeah Im guessing its pretty hard to kill a Balrog but then again Gandolf is a maiar (sp?) and in the movie at least it showed him calling down lightening into his sword and then stabbing the Balrog with the charge in the sword. So maybe even a mighty Balrog cant deal with ten kajillion volts of electricty and it shorted him out and put out his fire. But then it seemed to do the same to Gandolf so maybe he realized it was the only thing he could do to kill the creature.

And that scene where Gandolf apparently "dies" and is reborn anew and more powerful is like the one scene by far that all the non-book read people i know are pretty clueless about. Had to explain that for a lot of people. Gandolf's purpose. Who sent him. That kind of thing.

[Dunadan]

That whole scene blew my mind clean out of my skull. Gandalf hacking at the Balrog while they're plunging down Khazad-dum, whacking off the sides! What a dude.

I couldn't believe they'd done it so well. I reckon you're right: we'll see a bit more of this in the extended version, and I'd hope to see some of the Endless Stair and of the balrog becoming a creature of slime when they hit the water.

The book is pretty vague about exactly how Gandalf prevailed ("I cast him down and he smote the mountain side in his ruin" or something) so there's plenty of room for artistic licence. My reading of it was G. putting forth his power to take down the balrog, hence he was spent. The resurrection scene was really well done too.

Interesting that you had to explain to non-book readers what was going on; it's always hard to guess what the films are like for folk who don't already know the story.

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
...The resurrection scene was really well done too.

Interesting that you had to explain to non-book readers what was going on; it's always hard to guess what the films are like for folk who don't already know the story.

Well really to completely understand that scene you had to know some background about Gandolf and what his purpose was and even a little of who created middle earth. Otherwise you just assumed he was resurected somehow and thats that.

But on a related note Im pretty sure Im in the minority on this but I think I would have enjoyed the second movie more had I NOT just read the book BUT had read it say 10 or 15 years before and the story line was still in my memory but not so much of the details. This was true for the first movie. I had not read the book since I was 12 and the first movie hit me like a glorious hurricane, familiar but altogether new and wonderful. I was so taken in and impressed. Then i read the whole trilogy again and when I watched the second movie I found myself nit picking and focusing on whats missing and such. Shame on me. So my advice to you all is read the book first then WAIT 10 YEARS AND SEE THE MOVIE!

[WallRocker]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So maybe even a mighty Balrog cant deal with ten kajillion volts of electricty and it shorted him out and put out his fire.

wasn't the fire already out when Gandalf destroyed the Balrog i TTT movie? I know it the book it was, and seemed like his fire was out when Gandalf fought him on the mountain top in the movie as well.

[Elfhelm]

First, about why THIS Balrog is so hard to slay but earlier Balrogs were slain by elf lords: maybe Gandalf's Balrog was some sort of extra powerful one. I know there's no evidence of that beyond the fact that Gandalf was an Istari and should not have had more difficulty than an elf in fighting a balrog. Funny how, before the Silmarillion it was THE Balrog and after Silm it was A Balrog.So maybe it was the king of the Balrogs or some such. Another take might be that the Balrog lived a long time during this fight because after a certain point he was running away and Gandalf had to trap him on the mountaintop to force him to finish the fight. And much of the damage Gandalf took may have come from other things, like falling, exertion running up stairs, etc. And maybe Sauron, knowing they were in Moria, channelled extra power to this balrog.

Second, about the extended edition extra scene, I am hoping for Gwahir to make an appearance. After all the very first camera angle (the helicopter steadycam flying over the mountains) could be from Gwahir's POV. That will give the Lord of the Eagles a scene in each movie. And if they make The Hobbit, he will get a big scene there, too. After that, Gandalf recovering at Lothlorien would be nice to explain why he's wearing an elven cloak and brooch when he summons Shadowfax. I don't think the Endless Stair will make it into the fight because I can't imagine how that could work cinematically.

One other thing I hope for is that he might refer to himself as Olorin. It seems to me they cut a little of his speech there, and they might put it back in. I suppose to non-readers it seems like he has amnesia, but he's actually "hopped up" on metaphysics and still coming around to the material world.

Many are my names in many countries, Mithrandir among the elves, Tharkun to the dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.

I hope they put at least part of that in. It's something all the fans of the books know well.

[Sween]

i loved this fight from the sweeping shots over the misty mountians to the falling the last shot looking up that whole at the lake was beautiful i though.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
First, about why THIS Balrog is so hard to slay but earlier Balrogs were slain by elf lords: maybe Gandalf's Balrog was some sort of extra powerful one. I know there's no evidence of that beyond the fact that Gandalf was an Istari and should not have had more difficulty than an elf in fighting a balrog.

That's an interesting point. There is some evidence, from the book: when Gandalf puts a simple closing spell on the door when they flee from the Chamber of Mazarbul, he describes the balrog's counter-spell as "terrible", and he has to use the "word of Command" to stop the door from opening. The effort nearly breaks him.

So, the Moria balrog was certainly pretty powerful, perhaps more so because Sauron was active and seeking the Ring.

Also, the First Age elves were greater in power than those that came after. Even so, I'm sure they didn't exactly hunt balrogs for sport, and would have the benefit of armour and weapons forged in Aman.

Further, Olorin was restricted by his form in Middle Earth.

Finally, if the balrogs were Maiar, we can assume that each was unique rather than being churned out in a production line, so there's no reason why Durin's Bane couldn't have greater power than other balrogs.

cheers

d.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Dunadan


Finally, if the balrogs were Maiar, we can assume that each was unique rather than being churned out in a production line, so there's no reason why Durin's Bane couldn't have greater power than other balrogs.

cheers

d.

good point its a fair asumption to make that the balrogs were stationed at Agband all of the time. They were Morgoth elite trops. That means that Durins bane had to escape from the host of the valar when they attacked this would suggest that he was indeed the greatest of saurons servents. He was also older much older at them time of LOTR than in the sil so its possiable he built up his power in moria in all those years much like sauron did.

Unlike in the movie the orcs probably did not shy away from the balrog in the same way. They would of been in service to him its possiable he would of got some of them to waylay Gandalf from time to time.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sween
That means that Durins bane had to escape from the host of the valar when they attacked this would suggest that he was indeed the greatest of saurons servents.

Well wasnt the head balrog killed long ago? And this was just the last one. I think the idea Tolkien wanted to convey was that these were creature of absolutly terrifying power and you just didnt want to mess with them if you could help it no matter who you were. But they could be killed.

Unlike in the movie the orcs probably did not shy away from the balrog in the same way. They would of been in service to him its possiable he would of got some of them to waylay Gandalf from time to time.

The way I saw it was that in the movie this Balrog had been renegade and alone for ages and perhaps was deranged and unstable now and basically went after anything that lived. So NOTHING wanted to get near it. Even orcs. It flead to Moria because it was in danger and perhaps hurt and was obviously angry about its situation so it haunted the mountain going after anything that lived in anger and perhaps dimentia. It was a lone wolf if you will unlike its ancient bretheren who fought as part of a unit essentially.

[Huan]

I thought the balrog was dwelling deep down in Moria and was disturbed/awakened by Durin or Balin. Or am I only going by Saruman's words in the movie? Well, either way, this is the movie site, so what Saruman says applies, I guess. Incidentally, that was one line I missed in Fellowship's movie: "Ai! A Balrog! A balrog is come!" But you can see it in Legolas' face that that's what he's thinking.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Huan
I thought the balrog was dwelling deep down in Moria and was disturbed/awakened by Durin or Balin. Or am I only going by Saruman's words in the movie? Well, either way, this is the movie site, so what Saruman says applies, I guess. Incidentally, that was one line I missed in Fellowship's movie: "Ai! A Balrog! A balrog is come!" But you can see it in Legolas' face that that's what he's thinking.

The dwarves dug too deep in the mines of Moria and that is when the Balrog awoke, while Durin was the Lord of Moria, hence the Balrog being called "Durin's Bane".

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

I've often wondered what may have happened if the Balrog would have taken the ring somehow-if he even knew about it. Could he have used it? If so, he may have had the power to overthrow Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron!
I realize this is out of the scope of the movies, but the thought just occurred to me.

[Millane]

Well wasnt the head balrog killed long ago?
yep that was Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs killed by Ecthelion

Unlike in the movie the orcs probably did not shy away from the balrog in the same way. They would of been in service to him its possiable he would of got some of them to waylay Gandalf from time to time.
yeah didnt they have cavetrolls to lay down planks for the balrog to cross...

the balrog fight was awesome in the movie it was the best opening to a movie that ive ever seen, did anyone else think that the balrog looked kind of bearish when it was trying to swat gandalf away as they fell, loved that whole seen and i hope it will have more cut out..

[Sween]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
The dwarves dug too deep in the mines of Moria and that is when the Balrog awoke, while Durin was the Lord of Moria, hence the Balrog being called "Durin's Bane".

This allways confussed me slightly because Moria is established by the time of the sil i think its even refered to at one point.

So the Balrog can hardly expect to flee under a city and not be disturbed.

Maybe the balrog in LOTR is a blarog that fled at the awkening of the elves.

[Dunadan]

Good point. Though Khazad dum was considerably strengthened by dwarves fleeing from Nogrod and Belegost after the destruction of Beleriand, so maybe the balrog was able to hide itself using other entrances and there weren't that many dwarves at the time it arrived.

Another issue is that the balrog "slept": the reawakening of Sauron would rouse other creatures of Morgoth's horde.

Can anyone remind me of when Khazad-dum was originally destroyed? Was it around the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age.

Interesting to think "what if the balrog got the ring". I wouldn't think it would necessarily hand it over to Sauron; it might decide that IT was the Lord of the Rings instead!

cheers

d.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Millane
the balrog fight was awesome in the movie it was the best opening to a movie that ive ever seen

I really liked the sound of Glamdring falling right before Gandalf grabs it out of the air, really cool :D

[kiwi]

i loved the fight against the balrog at the start. I think the specail effects were really good! :D

[Millane]

yeah i just loved how you see after he falls he just flails down but then he gets the determined look and dives down sword in hadn and canes that balrog.

and if the Balrog did get the ring i think it would keep it for itself... people see him as just a monster and dont really remember that he is a Maiar and that it is just like gandalf except that it has a different form.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Could you imagine that balrog stomping down to Barad-dur wearing the One Ring and calling Sauron out to play? Whoa!

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Balrog_of_Morgoth
Could you imagine that balrog stomping down to Barad-dur wearing the One Ring and calling Sauron out to play? Whoa!

haha THAT would be a lovely scene

[legolasluvr2931]

In the book wasnt the Balrog supposed to become weak in the water and then there be a staircase or something. And before Gandalf fell, why didnt Boromir let Frodo help him? He could have saved him. Oh well.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by legolasluvr2931
In the book wasnt the Balrog supposed to become weak in the water and then there be a staircase or something. And before Gandalf fell, why didnt Boromir let Frodo help him? He could have saved him. Oh well.

Priority One: Defend the ring bearer at all costs. He didnt want him going into a dangerous situation like that. Even at the expense of Gandolf.

[unregistered]

I thought it was good, but it was in the wrong place... Gandalf did not discuss these events until much later in the book. Also Gandalf did not give that much detail as was portrayed in the movie... I guess they had to do something though to make it look good

I enjoyed it tho

[unregistered]

Originally posted by legolasluvr2931
In the book wasnt the Balrog supposed to become weak in the water and then there be a staircase or something. And before Gandalf fell, why didnt Boromir let Frodo help him? He could have saved him. Oh well.

Frodo save Gandalf eh?

Not very likely

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

i thought it was good..but my practical logical brain (only when it wants to be) realized that gandalf could've never caught up with the balrog acoring to *newtons?* law

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn
i thought it was good..but my practical logical brain (only when it wants to be) realized that gandalf could've never caught up with the balrog acoring to *newtons?* law

Oh but in the fall the Balrog hits the side of the wall, thus slowing his air velocity which enables Gandalf to catch him :D

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

ahhhhhhhhh

[Noahamir]

In reference to an earlier post:

I was reading that chapter a week ago and the Balrog was "a creature of slime" untill he reached the top of the endless stair.

Gandalf said he burst back into flame at the top of the mountain. I am guessing that maybe the mountain winds helped stoke his flames back up.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Was it just me or did that scene's special effects look even better than in FOTR? I realize that the end of the scene on the bridge was being shown from a different angle than before, which was really cool, but it seemed even better. Especially when Gandalf strikes the bridge with his staff. That white flash seemed much more powerful.

[azalea]

I went ahead and merged the thread you started with the original thread about the Balrog scene in TTT, and we can make this the "official" thread to discuss all aspects of the TT balrog scene. Bringing it to the top...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by azalea
and we can make this the "official" thread to discuss all aspects of the TT balrog scene

all aspects? Including wings? :D

[azalea]

Uh...sure.. The way they looked, his use of them.:D If you dare.;)

[Aranwe]

Finally, if the balrogs were Maiar, we can assume that each was unique rather than being churned out in a production line, so there's no reason why Durin's Bane couldn't have greater power than other balrogs.

In the Silm. it's not clear whether the Balrogs are Maiar or not... it describes them as spirits, but whether they are of similar power to the Maiar or not isn't said (as far as I remember).

The dwarves dug too deep in the mines of Moria and that is when the Balrog awoke, while Durin was the Lord of Moria, hence the Balrog being called "Durin's Bane".

In one of the books (can't remember which, I think it was one of the appendices in RotK) it says that EITHER the hammering of the dwarves or sauron himself had awoken the balrog, but Sauron wanted it either way because he hated the dwarves for not being bent to his will by their rings.

Interesting to think "what if the balrog got the ring". I wouldn't think it would necessarily hand it over to Sauron; it might decide that IT was the Lord of the Rings instead!

Well Sauron was originally AT LEAST equal or greater in power to the Balrogs, because he was one of the Maiar and the Balrogs were definately not greater than the Maiar. Even though much of his power was put into the ring and therefore he could be weaker than a Balrog without it, with the ring he would be at his full power again.

Plus, a Balrogs finger is too fat to fit the ring on, so maybe he could never even use it for himself :p

[Ërendil]

Loved the Balrog fight in TTT, especially the shot when they are falling into the water :)

Aranwe, doesn't the ring change size depending on its user or something? It would have to grow pretty big to fit on a Balrog hand, but you never know... :)

[Aranwe]

Never thought of that... I guess it must do, Sauron's finger would be alot bigger than a Hobbit finger, and it fitted perfectly on Frodo's finger.

[Dúnedain]

The thing I liked about the TTT Balrog fight was the sound of Gandalf's sword Glamdring as it was falling and then when he keeps pounding it into the Balrog, hehe :D

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Aranwe
Never thought of that... I guess it must do, Sauron's finger would be alot bigger than a Hobbit finger, and it fitted perfectly on Frodo's finger. There was a scene in the first movie when Isildur had just picked the Ring up after cutting Sauron's fingers off. When Isildur held the Ring in his hand, you could see how it shrinked.

[Balrog_of_Morgoth]

Yes. It was a good idea to portray that in the movie, even though it did present some problems in the book - it seemed that one size fit all.

For that reason, at least in the movie version, the Balrog could have conceivably took the ring and wore it. (maybe on his pinky finger ;) )

[Dunadan]

Would the balrog have understood what the Ring was? If he'd been sleeping through the Second Age, he might not understand the "technology".

I liked Gandalf's reference to him in the first film as "a demon of the ancient world", implying that this is something beyond understanding from an almost alien world. Since the balrog fled from Angband, the world had been reshaped twice.

So, would the balrog have the brains or understanding to wield the Ring effectively?

[Fanëar]

I'm a little confused now...In the first movie didnt Gandalf tell them to run from the Balrog because their weapons couldnt help them but in the 2nd movie the Balrog was killed by being repeatedlly stabbed with a sword. I dont get it....:confused:

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Fanëar
I'm a little confused now...In the first movie didnt Gandalf tell them to run from the Balrog because their weapons couldnt help them but in the 2nd movie the Balrog was killed by being repeatedlly stabbed with a sword. I dont get it....:confused:

With Gandolfs sword. Which is a special sword. And by Gandolf who is maiar. AND after he called down lightening to super charge his sword. So no the weapons of the others wouldnt have helped I dont think. Maybe sting but yer not gonna get far stabbing a balrog in the ankle with a dagger.

[Fanëar]

thanks I somewhat seee that now. But why didnt he just do all that magic stuff and kill the mean thing right there?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Fanëar
thanks I somewhat seee that now. But why didnt he just do all that magic stuff and kill the mean thing right there?

Well remember the battle started there. It took days. But it was all the same battle. We just dont get to see the part where they fight all the way back to the top of the mountain. I think Gandolf just wanted to cut off the Balrog because he didnt want to risk actually fighting it at all. He had other things to worry about and time was of the essence. The whole bridge breaking thing was a trap. He figured ok hell drop off then we can make our escape. But of course the Balrog managed to snag him and Gandolf fell.

[Fanëar]

thanks I get that now