Gandalf - Gandalf the White

[Captain Stern]

I wasn't sure which forum to put this on but seeing as a lot of what this topic is about is covered in the old texts I'll put it in this one, maybe I'll put it on The Lord of the Rings one later too.

From other topics on this forum people have reffered to parts of the HOME books e.t.c that Gandalf was the most powerful of the istari even at the begining and you've given possible reasons why Gandalf was 'captured' by Saruman ( allowing himself to be captured to learn more e.t.c )

What puzzles me is after Gandalf died at the hands of the Balrog he became Gandalf the White, meaning that now he was officialy the head of the Istari. He was evidently more powerful than when he was Gandalf the Grey....or was he? Was it because now he was The White he could be freer with his powers? It was stated that the Valar refused the Istari the right to openly battle Sauron so was he given permission to fight him after he became The White?


Also The Valar forced the Istari to take on the form of old men to gain their trust. They weren't allowed to take on forms of power and majesty in the risk of men seein them as gods or beings to be feared. So why did Saruman keep this form after becoming evil? Wouldn't it be better for him to take on a form like Sauron's to inspire his servants, to attract new ones and to frighten his enemies? Was it because Sauron forbade him to do so or did the Valar still have some power over him still?

[easterlinge]

I dunno. Gandalf's powers fluctuate quite a bit if you ask me. In "the Hobbit", all he could do was start fires, and enhance fire. Setting fire to pine cones, etc. And a bit of ventrilloquism on the Trolls.

In "Fellowship", he fights off nine Nazgul with his firepower at Amon Sul. Frodo could see the flashes a long way off. Then in Moria he kills a Balrog. In "Two Towers" he is imprervious to physical weapons.

In "Return of the King", when confronted with the Witch-King, he just trembles and issues vague threats. The old man fought all nine Nazgul,and survived a fight with a Balrog, and cast out Saruman. I thought he would be powerful enough to blow the Witch-King away ??

[Inoldonil]

Gandalf The Grey was neither the most powerful nor the chief of the Istari (he was however wisest of all the Maiar). When Saruman was corrupted, and Radagast refused to take up the job, it was very important Gandalf stayed alive to overthrow Sauron. He did not in any way "let himself" be captured, Grey is no match for White, certainly not in this instance (Gandalf The White might have a good hand-to-hand battle with Morinehtar (the Blue), I don't know). This should be evident with Gandalf's "empty" threat about dealing with himself not being so easy. Saruman laughed in his face. So when Gandalf sacrificed himself in Moria by breaking the bridge, thereby saving his companions, it was pretty clear the entire quest was very hopeless, he sacrificed app. 2000 years of hard work against Sauron.

Because of this his fea, or soul, did not go back to Aman or wander the lands aimlessly (for he was as you point out incarnate and could die truly), but outside the circles of the world to Eru, literally naked. Eru because of his sacrifice clothed him in white, made him the true Chief of the Istari (my term not Tolkien's), and bestowed upon him gifts that Saruman would have otherwise gained.

The Valar did not force the Istari to go as Men, they did so willingly, and it was also not to gain their trust. Rather, it was because of the past methods of the Elder Days that often failed. You can't send Ainur to Middle-earth in just the spiritual sense and try to force victory over the Enemy in any way, on the Enemy's enemies or on the Enemy himself. It's destructive and ineffective. Therefore they went as old men that aged slowly, and were susceptible to the cares and pains of the world. If they did not stray from the path the memory of Valinor would remain a vague vision in their thoughts of bliss, but if they did not, it would be forgotten. In this way they might slowly but surely pursuade the Free Peoples. (Ofcourse the Blue Wizards came an Age earlier and with a somewhat different task.)

The Istari in Middle-earth were incarnate. They did not wear their bodies as clothes as was usual for Ainur of old, but had real bodies of living Men. They could not change shape wholly or truly, although Aiwendil (Radagast) was said to be a "master of shapes and hues," whatever that means. He may be a "shape-shifter" or he may be a talented painter.

Gandalf did not tremble against the Witch-King! I don't know where you would get that idea.

[easterlinge]

I wonder to what extent Gandalf's powers were enhanced by Narya, the Ring Cirdan gave him? Was Gandalf's powers of fire native to him, enhanced by the Ring, or did it come from the Ring (Narya was the Ring of Fire) itself ? Or did the Ring have nothing to do with his powers over Fire, his powers completely native to him?

Certainly Saruman had no elemental powers like Gandalf had. And Elrond had powers over the waters of the Bruinen, unleashing a flood upon the Nazgul.

I think I asked somewhere what the Blue Wizards accomplished. Someone said that later Tolkien chnaged his mind and said they succeeded. In what?

[Inoldonil]

I said that (maybe you heard it from someone else, but I said it as well). Check the Favorite Vala thread.

It seems to me Gandalf always had the power of light and fire, but that was indeed enhanced by Narya. I think the magic on the Bruinen by Elrond was just his power in general, as he had the Ring of Air, not of Water. But we do know for sure Narya helped rather in the kindling of hearts to hope in times of despair, So that's really what the "fire" entails. But Gandalf previously also had some of that power as well. He was ever a master of Elvish dreams, putting fair visions in the hearts and eyes of the Elves of Aman, especially during the Darkening of Valinor.

You're right about Saruman, but think about what powers and interests he did have. He was a Maia of Aule, and sure enough he named himself Ring-maker, and made a ring for himself, he "created" his own Race (Half-Orcs), and hoarded artifacts of power, not to mentioned studied the arts of the Enemy, who also of old was a Maia of Aule.

[easterlinge]

Hmm... yes, sauron was affiliated with Aule at one time wasn't he? So maybe that was why Saruman was in charge-who better than someone who knows the enemy better than other Maiar? Maybe Sauron and Saruman even knew each other a looong time ago. And odd how both became corrupted.

Saruman didn't strike me as being that powerful, maybe because his powers were not of a flashy pyrotechnic sort. He was more of a tinkerer-industrialist-mad scientist-property developer-sleazy politician. A Third Age equivalent of a Citizen Kane. Or Boris Yeltsin.

Are you sure Elrond unleashed the Bruinen without recourse to his Ring? I know the 3 Rings were not meant to wield destructive powers, but .... I mean even the First Age Elves didn't seem to have those elemental powers. Turgon didn't raise the river level to bolster Gondolin's moat. (Not that I know of.) Doriath's magic defenses were managed by Melian, a Maia.

Maybe Elrond simply ordered a dam's sluicegates to be opened... that's a far simpler explanation. Like what the Dutch did to the Spaniards in their war for independence, breaking the dykes to drive them out. (Rather drastic though.)

[Inoldonil]

The White Ring of Water possessed by Galadriel increased her desire to go over _Sea_, and kept it in her heart, the Red Ring of Fire possessed by Gandalf (as I have recently read, thereby remembering again) enabled Gandalf to further his powers in _kindling_ the hearts of the Free Peoples to Hope. Water and Fire seem to me metaphoric, so I would assume Air would be. But even if they also had elemental powers (which is possible, consider Galadriel's power shone in the Mirror, and again Gandalf's power with fire), Elrond had the Ring of Air, not of Water. I suppose he could have blown the Bruinen into a wave. I don't know.

But I'm not very learned in Ring-lore. Your theories may be correct, but I don't have very educated guesses beyond what I already have said.

[easterlinge]

Now let us ask Martinez, who is an old hand at this.