Seven Stars

[easterlinge]

"Seven Starsand Seven Stones and one White Tree"

We know about Seven stones (palantiri), and the White Tree is obvious enough. But what are the Seven Stars? Is it Menelvagor/Orion?

[Inoldonil]

It has many names I believe, but a few of them are the Sickle of the Valar (Valacirya), The Burning Briar and Durin's Crown. I don't think it is Menelvagor.

[easterlinge]

Menelvagor corresponds to Orion in our skies. (ANd if you count only the brightest stars of Orion's body and belt, there are indeed seven.)

What does Valacirya correspond to? The Big Dipper? Does it have seven? I'll have to count next time I look.

Or maybe the Seven Stars are the Pleiades or "the Seven Sisters".

Can't help wondering if the flag of the House of Elendil was originally supposed to contain a constellation.

[Finduilas]

I believe the Sickle does correspond to the Big Dipper. The location certainly fits.

[Inoldonil]

The Sickle is the Ursa Major, it's also called Otselen.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

I always thought it referred to the seven small gems that wound up on the crown of the King of Gondor...they were Elven gems and shown like stars...

[Inoldonil]

Why do you think there were seven stars in his crown? That number wasn't randomly picked, it was a symbol of the Sickle of the Valar, that Varda put in the skies as a threat and a challenge to Morgoth.

[easterlinge]

Are you sure the Big Dipper is also known as Durin's Crown? I get the giggles imagining a stern kingly dwarf wearing a big dipper on his head!! I can imagine Bilbo writing in his history books:

"Now in contrast with the winged Crown of the Kings of Gondor is the Crown of Durin, which noted for its long handle..."

[easterlinge]

THere is also something else. The original crown of Gondor was none other than Isildur's war-helm that he wore during the Last Alliance. As far as I know, it was unadorned with gems.

The crown of mithril and presumably set with seven gems was made during the rule of Atanatar Alcarin. Since that crown didn't exist when Elendil came, the "Seven Stars" can't be referring to the jewels in that crown.

I also note that Tolkien must have been something of a starwatcher, because he stated in LOTR that red Borgil/Betelgeuse was the first star of Menelvagor/Orion to rise above the horizon.

So the question of the Seven Stars is still unanswered.... I favour that they are some kind of royal treasure, like the Elendilmir that Arnorian kings wore...

[Inoldonil]

The Seven Stars of any device did not have to refer to a different crown or other if you think about it, because before any Man wore a crown there was the Sickle of the Valar, made of seven stars.

[easterlinge]

Hmmm.... interesting point. The Seven Stars may be some abstract thing or idea. A symbol of opposition to all evil.

Or maybe even like the Ten Commandments, "the Seven Commandments of Iluvatar".... naahhh....

[Michael Martinez]

The seven stars in the standard of Aragorn represented Elendil and his captains, according to the index of The Lord of the Rings.

[Inoldonil]

Oh.

[easterlinge]

Hmmm.... that means the rhyme "Seven Stars and Seven etc." itself is quite recent, and didn't exist when Elendil came.

Of course maybe Elendil did bring seven captains with him...

[Inoldonil]

He would have brought six, being himself the seventh.

[easterlinge]

Sorry!! I thought Martinez said "Aragorn brought seven captains". I see now he said "ELENDIL brought seven captains". Whoops.

Were the seven (six?) captains ever named? Did they include his sons?