The Idea of Slash

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

If you like the idea of slash -- Frodo/Sam, Merry/Pippin, Aragorn/Legolas...this is the thread for you. I'm just making this an introduction to what I hope will be a nice conversation about slash. After all, it's very yummy. I don't understand what people have against gay people. I mean, really!! I haven't found any people on this forum that like the idea of LotR slash. Frankly, I'm disappointed. If any of you do, please reply... I want to know I'm not alone! --F. G.--

[Nurvingiel]

I seem to say this a lot, but it definately applies to this particular thread.

LOTR is so diverse you can find anything in it! I mean anything! You are definately not alone in thinking Sam and Frodo love each other romantically (I'm referring to the example in your signature), but I don't share this interpretation.

Frodo and Sam have a deep and unique friendship that you rarely see. It's the kind that I have only read about in books about great heroes. They would do anything for each other - they're completely loyal and devoted. They love each other, but not romantically. I believe two people can be connected like this without any romance.

My Frodo and Sam argument can also apply to Merry and Pippin. They were great friends before the Fellowship, but in any group of four, people are bound to pair off. Rephrase, if the four people in a group have an equal respect for one another - as the four Hobbits do - then it's natural that they will fall into two pairs. This doesn't divide the group at all.

It's perfectly natural for Frodo and Sam's friendship to grow even stronger while on this quest. Merry and Pippin inevitably 'pair off', and their friendship is also strengthened. This might have happened anyway, since Merry and Pippin are an excellent team.

I'm not doing the best job at explaining my theory, but I think that in any group larger than three, smaller subgroups will form.

Your suggestion of Aragorn and Legolas doesn't make any sense. Aragorn loves Arwen, not Eowyn, Legolas, or anyone else.

The Fellowship was a brotherhood. In my interpretation, the subgroups, or the 'best friend' pairs are Frodo and Sam, Merry and Pippin, Aragorn and Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli, and Boromir. Obviously, deep friendship isn't confined to my list thingy.

What you see as romantic love, I interpret as the love of deep friendship. I don't think Tolkien was trying to write about the kind of love you describe.

And sorry, I am actually strait, I notice you don't want me to post in here. But once you post a thread, anyone can share their views with you whether you wish to read them or not.

Someone who is gay won't necessarily agree with you, or with me. Our own personalities dictate what we get out of LOTR, because you can find anything.

One last question, what exactly is "slash"? Is it because you write Frodo 'slash' Sam?

Cheers

[Nurvingiel]

I will also add that I think being gay is completely fine, I just don't think Tolkien was writing about anyone gay.

:)

[Miranda]

I've had a nose at a couple of LOTR slash pieces and thought they were plausible and some of the writing is okay. I have nothing about people being gay- hey most of my friends are (dancers, it happens!) I can seriously see this thread getting out of control though!!! Mx

[Sister Golden Hair]

There is nothing gay in LotRs. Any element of homosexuality that is seen in that story has been read into it by the reader.

[Artanis]

I've read some LotR slash fanfic, but most of the stories were poorly written and I lost interest. I wonder though, why the vast majority of fanfic is slash? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious.

[Elf.Freak]

you're not alone! i found this really funny LOTR slash fic called [edited] (i'd rate it PG though).

well...i found it funny...:D

[I edited that out -- I think the language is questionable -- azalea]

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
I've read some LotR slash fanfic, but most of the stories were poorly written and I lost interest. I wonder though, why the vast majority of fanfic is slash? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious. Indeed. I have seen tons of it at the Henneth Annun-Stories by Author site. I believe I have seen your fanfic there Artanis.:)

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
There is nothing gay in LotRs. Any element of homosexuality that is seen in that story has been read into it by the reader.

True, but... I can't help but wonder how the lifestyle of some of Tolkien's colleagues - bachelor writers who love their pipes and home comforts, etc. - got into the story. There's no sexuality at all, but it is possible to avoid the opposite gender all your life while, oh let's say, go to operas and having nice doilies on your beautiful furniture and getting upset about the rough guys and the way they treat your dishes! If he's not exactly gay, he is at the very least a Virgo!

[Nurvingiel]

Hey I'm a Virgo! Who hates smoking... never mind. Maybe he just didn't want to write women? Or maybe he didn't feel comfortable writing women characters? Except Eowyn and Galadriel are great! Success there.

[Elfhelm]

OMG! I just accidentally ran into an Arwen/Eowyn fanfic.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Hey I'm a Virgo!

No offense to 1/12th of the population, but is it true about being very particular and cleanly? I don't really hold much with Astrology except to crack jokes. :)

[Nurvingiel]

I am clean..? I usually smell nice... um but I like the outdoors so I don't object in the slightest to dirt under my fingernails, mud on my boots, and rain in my lunchbucket. If that's what you meant... erm, anyway...

Maybe it's the Viggo/Virgo connection. Only one letter difference... ;)

Anyway, off topic. I think Firhithiel Greenleaf needs to come and defend his (?) original point if he wants this thread to continue on topic...

And even though I have issues with LOTR slash, that's only because I don't think that's what Tolkien was writing about.

[Elfhelm]

I'm sure it's not the gayness of the slash, but the uncharacteristic behavior of the characters that turns people off.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I believe I have seen your fanfic there Artanis.:) Oh yes? Must have been written by the other half of my split personality. :p

[Coney]

Anyone going to be really generous and provide a link to a good example of this stuff? (I've had a sniff around and found some really bad wotsit).

[Yazad]

I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid". It really ticks me off. I'd think that a group of folks literate enough to be interested in Tolkien's works would be a little more respectful and tolerant.

******************************

Anyway, before this thread gets bumped because it doesn't have much to do with the movie, let me quickly try to save it.

There was a tremendous amount of criticism of Bakshi (damn, alls I can talk about is Bakshi!) for representing Sam as a bit homosexual in his film. Personally I think that anyone who gets up in arms about that depiction hasn't read the Lord of the Rings. Whether or not Sam (and/or Frodo) is gay isn't really the point, but that Bakshi tread that line shows that he was very attuned to the story.

There are many segments of the book where the affection which Sam has for Frodo treads the line of what we would modernly think of as gay (probably due to our homophobia). The quote in Firhithiel's sig is only one. There's also a segment in the orc tower near Cirith Ungol where Sam is dreaming for "only one more kiss, one more touch of his hand". Sure that may just be a brotherly type of love that we don't understand, but it may also be something else, and to say that any portrayal of their relationship as "more than friends" is entirely inaccurate is, I think to ignore a significant subcurrent of the text and adhere to what one's own mind wants to "hear".

All that said: What's slash fiction???

Yazad

[Elfhelm]

I think you're right that Hobbit's kisses are not sexual and any sexuality we ascribe to them are from our own fears. Gondoran men kiss each other, too. Affection is a wonderful thing, and to confuse it with sex cheapens it (not that I'm saying YOU did).

[Finmandos12]

to say that any portrayal of their relationship as "more than friends" is entirely inaccurate is, I think, to ignore a significant subcurrent of the text and adhere to what one's own mind wants to "hear".

You're the one adhering to what one's own mind wants to "hear". Tolkien was a strong Christian, naturally he would not hide a homosexual subcurrent in his book. The reason it seems like Sam is gay in some parts of the book is the national mind nowadays. People are obsessed with sex and try to put it into everything.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Yazad
I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid".When did this happen? It's not my impression at all.

About the relationship between Sam and Frodo: I see it as an example of the affectionate, deep and very English friendship. They know each other well, and love each other, and as I see it, this is pure platonic love.

[Yazad]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
You're the one adhering to what one's own mind wants to "hear". Tolkien was a strong Christian, naturally he would not hide a homosexual subcurrent in his book. The reason it seems like Sam is gay in some parts of the book is the national mind nowadays. People are obsessed with sex and try to put it into everything.

Ummmmmm, I'm not exactly sure what being a strong Christian has to do (necessarily) with homosexuality. I do understand that being a fundamentalist might have to do with it. Tolkien was not, IMO, a fundamentalist.

Further, strong Christians also have a lot of feelings about murder as well, but that didn't keep Professor Tolkien from including it in his story.

Again, I'm not saying that Frodo and Sam were (necessarily) gay, I'm just saying that it's not outrageous for someone to interpret it that way.

Lastly, interpretation of art has very little to do, IMO, with what the author thought. If there is only one interpretation a person can get from a piece of creative work then that work is not art, it is propaganda. So whether or not Tolkien wrote in a homosexual subtext to the Lord of the Rings, does not mean that said subtext isn't there.

All that said, I didn't mean to imply that there's some massive underlying homosexual conspiracy in the story or anything. I just meant that I think to flatly deny any possibility of it is being rather fascistic with interpretation.

When reading "The Inklings" by Humphrey Carpeter, you definitely get the feeling that the sort of male love that Tolkien, Lewis and friends had is something that we really don't quite have in our modern society, at least it's something that I haven't much witnessed, or noticed.

Yazad

[LuthienTinuviel]

ahhh HERE IT IS!

i dug thru the acrchives of almost every page me and my sister have looked at in the past 12 months, and i found it, a good example of slash.

personally, it's not for me, but in some of these stories, i liked the plot of like three of them, and simply skiped over the useless smut. most of them are REALLY REALLY odd though. tread carefully.

PG-13 and NC-17 rated site, if it gets deleted, then pm me if you REALLY want it:

ahh, against my better judgement, just pm me.

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Yazad
I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid". It really ticks me off. I'd think that a group of folks literate enough to be interested in Tolkien's works would be a little more respectful and tolerant.

All that said: What's slash fiction???

Yazad

I do too...it seems that *everyone* in this world uses the word "gay" as meaning "stupid" or "dumb", or when a person (usually a boy) does something weird or "girly". My cousin gets called gay a lot by his brothers because he likes some of the stuff I do. ((I'm a girl, obviously)). And slash fiction is fanfiction that's slash; slash means m/m or f/f relationships. And someone said that I need to defend my topic...I don't really mind if this gets bumped, I was just noticing that Frodo and Sam do have a very good relationship.

I was not saying they should go get rowdy or something...because I don't really want them to; I just think they should make their relationship a bit... different That's all. Because obviously they love each other a whole lot, and if they admitted that it went a *little* over the "friendship" line, it would be easier for everyone. :D

--F. G.--

[Elfhelm]

But it's only over the "friendship line" of us, not necessarily of them. Or am I wasting time trying to explain that our American values are not universal?

[Finmandos12]

Ummmmmm, I'm not exactly sure what being a strong Christian has to do (necessarily) with homosexuality. I do understand that being a fundamentalist might have to do with it. Tolkien was not, IMO, a fundamentalist.

In the Bible, it says homosexuality is wrong. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he would not have one of the good guys be gay.

I just meant that I think to flatly deny any possibility of it is being rather fascistic with interpretation.

Really? How is it possible to be "An advocate or adherent of facism" with interpretation?

[Wayfarer]

I often wonder why people look so frantically for erotic and sexual overtones where the don't exist and yet manage to ignore the achingly beautiful romance that tolkien actually wrote about. Get a copy of the lays, people. Beren and Luthien's story does to this kind of smut what the LOTR did to novels as a whole-completely and utterly demolishes it.


Originally posted by Yazad
When reading "The Inklings" by Humphrey Carpeter, you definitely get the feeling that the sort of male love that Tolkien, Lewis and friends had is something that we really don't quite have in our modern society, at least it's something that I haven't much witnessed, or noticed.

You might be interested in reading 'the four loves', by CS lewis. In it, he gives what is perhaps the best exposition of 'love' in the past century. And I would say that he paints a very vivid picture of what is missing from our society in modern times.

[Elfhelm]

fuggetaboutit

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
Tolkien was a strong Christian, naturally he would not hide a homosexual subcurrent in his book.

Catholic priests are strong christians too, but we all see what is going on with that...

I am Catholic so I am allowed to make fun of them :D


On the topic of this, I see your points, and I think the point is taken, however I don't think there are gender based relationships between the same genders within Tolkien's writing. With that I mean the way Tolkien has created his world, the world is without the bias and standards that in our world make such a basis for things of this nature. I think with the overall feelings towards homosexual or heterosexual relationships in our culture, that when we read lines put forth, such as those at question we are geared to assume certain qualities of the characters and "how they are". However, in Tolkien's world the characters interact without second guessing what they are saying or meaning, because the feelings they grow or have for one another are true to what they are and can freely discern on a level playing field without the fear of having to "watch how they act" out of fear of how they are portrayed.

So, with that being said, I think it is a result of our own culture for such things to be read into so deeply. Could those undercurrents be there, yes, of course they could, however I don't think they are for the reasonings I put forth above...

[Yazad]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
In the Bible, it says homosexuality is wrong. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he would not have one of the good guys be gay.

Wow! shudders I don't think I'd like to continue that discussion, at least not here.

Originally posted by Finmandos12
Really? How is it possible to be "An advocate or adherent of facism" with interpretation?

Meaning that you're limiting the scope of what you will allow to be interpreted into the books. You're saying (not you necessarily, but 'one') that even though there is evidence that this *could* be the case, it is not. PERIOD. I think that's kinda fascistic in interpretation, especially of a piece of art. Just my opinion, though, I guess, kinda.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I often wonder why people look so frantically for erotic and sexual overtones where the don't exist

I don't really think that we (I) are really frantically looking for any such overtones. Personally I like my sexless Tolkien. I don't think that every story has to have sex or even romance involved in it. Some stories, sure, but not all. Just like not all stories need to have violence in them.

Anyway, sex isn't the point here (as in the act of sex) or eroticism. Gah, I think I'm gonna have to capitulate as well.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You might be interested in reading 'the four loves', by CS lewis. In it, he gives what is perhaps the best exposition of 'love' in the past century. And I would say that he paints a very vivid picture of what is missing from our society in modern times.

I am very interested in it, and will try to do so soon. It was discussed at significant length in "The Inklings", but I hadn't gotten around to it yet. I will try to soon!

Yazad

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
In the Bible, it says homosexuality is wrong. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he would not have one of the good guys be gay.


That is interpretive....

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Yazad
All that said, I didn't mean to imply that there's some massive underlying homosexual conspiracy in the story or anything.



LIES!! You did too!!












lol j/k :D

[Elfhelm]

Let's try a different word than fascistic. I don't think it's a very exact term, and people get easily offended by it.

I'd hate to see the thread get diverted.

Affection is not sex. I think that's a very important distinction. And the affection in Tolkien runs very deep. Can we stay with that, and the idea of "love" as C.S.Lewis and other Inklings saw it?

As far as creating non-characteristic scenes for the characters, stick to Kirk/Spock and leave Samwise out of it, that's my opinion.

[Starr Polish]

I, as a Christian and a person in general, do not like Tolkien slash, because to me it is completely out of character. I don't go around reviewing slash writers and insulting them, because it is almost always clearly labled "slash", so I simply avoid it.

I will admit I have read a story with what was called "implied slash" that was well-written, and the implications were very subtle.

I can see why people would think there are homosexual subtexts in this novel, but personally I don't see them that way. The love between Frodo and Sam is so deep and true that there is no way it could be romantic love. It's a type of love that I don't think can be explained, and I highly doubt it's seen every hundred years in human beings. It reaches far beyond friendship, romantic or even brotherly love into what you could call "true love." "True love" can be (and is, according to me, in this case) platonic.

I agree that today's society is obsessed with sex, and tries to find it in everything and anything. Even the movies have been "sexed up" a bit (Arwen/Aragorn), though hardly explicitly.

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I'd hate to see the thread get diverted.

Affection is not sex. I think that's a very important distinction. And the affection in Tolkien runs very deep. Can we stay with that, and the idea of "love" as C.S.Lewis and other Inklings saw it?



Exactly. . .to tell the truth, I'm starting to regret posting this. Is there no one who enjoys this kind of relationship? No smut, no sex, not even any kissing, just looking in someone's eyes and not being afraid of anything and loving that person. . . maybe Tolkien already describes that. In fact, I think he does. What I'm trying to say is that. . . um, what am I trying to get to? How about I rephrase it, yes, that's what I'll do. What I'm trying to say is Frodo and Sam do love each other. Obviously; how can you (Sam) be so loyal to someone (Frodo) without loving that person? And Frodo would have to love Sam, after his loyalty and all he's done for him. . . .

But I don't want any stuff going on between them, I just don't think it's right. Oh yeah, I was trying to say that I suppose their relationship is the way you think about it, in a way. I mean, the basic point is, They Love Each Other, but what my idea of great "slash" is, it's the way you think about their love. . . maybe Tolkien wrote the story without more explanation on their "relationship" ((no offence meant to Mr. Tolkien :))) so that people could re-imagine this kind of thing?

I mean, isn't that what good authors do?? They explain things, but they leave some things blank so that their readers can imagine these things.

This being done, I think I'll go now. . .before I bore you all. ((If I haven't already.)) If I've confused anyone/everyone, and no doubt I have, make no hesitation to reply! I'll try to recap. But for now, gotta run. :D

--F. G.--

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Firhithiel Greenleaf
I was not saying they should go get rowdy or something...because I don't really want them to; I just think they should make their relationship a bit... different That's all. Because obviously they love each other a whole lot, and if they admitted that it went a *little* over the "friendship" line, it would be easier for everyone. :D

--F. G.-- Please do us a favor and read Beowulf. maybe then you will get a sense of the warrior-brother bond between men that Tolkien uses in his epic--remember he based a lot of it on Old English/Anglo-Saxon culture.

Slash fic--ugh

[Huan]

As another straight intruder into this thread and one who's new to internet-speak, if that's what it is, is "slash" something people are saying now? My philologist side wants to know what y'all mean by "slash."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Indeed. I have seen tons of it at the Henneth Annun-Stories by Author site. I believe I have seen your fanfic there Artanis.:) OMG, I'm sooo slow. :rolleyes: Now I understand what you were saying. Stop mixing threads like this SGH, it's too complicated for me. :rolleyes: :p

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Huan
As another straight intruder into this thread and one who's new to internet-speak, if that's what it is, is "slash" something people are saying now? My philologist side wants to know what y'all mean by "slash."

"Slash" is a term for sexual relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. It's popular in fan fiction, which is writing a story with already created characters and places to fill in gaps, expand things or create "what if" situations. It is called slash because the relationships are usually shown in summaries by putting a slash between two characters names.

I know waay too much about fanfiction.

[cassiopeia]

First of all, I'd like to say that I don't think there is any homosexual relationships in the Lord of the Rings. Frodo and Sam love each other, but are not in love with each other. Having said that, I do read slash fiction, but I know to separate them from Tolkien's works. Most of it is pretty bad, but some slash is very good and actually has a plot. Concering RPS (slash involving real people, like Viggo/Orlando), I don't really like that very much. Some of these people are married and obviously straight! If anyone wants a really good Aragorn/Legolas fic can PM me. You should probably be over 18. :)

[Tawfret Melee]

:) I guess I'm another straight intruder, but this thread is so peaceful and under control (compared to any other topic like this I've seen eslewhere) that I thought I might be safe to comment.

I remember reading through the Two Towers for the first time, and raising my eyebrow at a few parts thinking, "Nobody told me that there was slash in this!" It was the first thing that came to my mind, although I wasn't looking for it or anything. It's just social conditioning in my opinion.

At first I was kind of shocked, but then I took it in stride, reminded myself that I really was enjoying the story, and eventually viewed the Frodo/Sam relationship in the way most people do in this thread: pure, platonic affection.

Just for the record though, the storyline is so strong and beautiful that I was perfectly happy to see the 'love thing' go either way, because I could only imagine Tolkein handling it artistically, just like the rest of the books.

So, I don't mind the slash interpretation that you see so often in fanfics and such. I feel that the characters are well-written enough to allow fanfic authors room to explore that side of their personalities. And after all, why not? Lots of people want to read it.

On the other hand, though, it's a bit amusing when I find it absolutely nessecary to write a non-slash disclaimer in the discription of a parody I wrote called 'The TRUTH About Frodo.' I mean, slash is the first thing you'd think of when you read that title, right?

[Nurvingiel]

I totally agree with you guys, the whole platonic love thing. That's exactly what I was saying. I haven't heard anyone in this forum use "gay" disparagingly, but I have noticed in day to day life, and it's so annoying!

It's not [i]outrageous[i/] to find slash in Tolkien, it's just that I don't believe he was writing about it.

[Yazad]

Okay, I think we're all finally boiling down our thoughts and finding that we really do agree for the most part.

I also think that Frodo and Sam's relationship is plutonic and just a form of love/affection that we don't see much of (or at least I don't). But it is possible for me to see how someone could easily interpretd it as romantic love.

Back to my point though - I don't think Bakshi in the scenes in question - represented Sam as any more homosexual that he was written by Tolkien. Whether he is or not, I think (at least that aspect of) Sam's portrayal in the Bakshi film was very good, and I refute the often raised ciritcism of it.

I hope that all makes sense.

As for slash fiction (read a few now), well I'm not a big fan of fan fiction in general, so I don't think that this is really any exception to the rule in general for me.

Yazad

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Tawfret Melee
It's just social conditioning in my opinion.


I agree with that 110%

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Yazad
plutonic Plutonic? as in pluto? *not sure whether to envision Mickey's lovable dog, or the planet* :D :D :D

alright, I know, I shouldn't make fun. I'm sorry.

It's platonic, by the by

[legolasluvr2931]

i dont know... i mean i have nothing against gay people, but i dont think that any of them are in the movie and im not so...

[markedel]

The only real implied homosexuality in Middle Earth would seem to be Tar-Ancalime. But Sam and Frodo...not that I can see.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by crickhollow
Plutonic? as in pluto? *not sure whether to envision Mickey's lovable dog, or the planet* :D :D :D

alright, I know, I shouldn't make fun. I'm sorry.

It's platonic, bye the bye.

lol I was so gonna make fun of that yesterday, but I unfortunately restrained myself :D

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by markedel
The only real implied homosexuality in Middle Earth would seem to be Tar-Ancalime.

Care to elaborate on that???

[LuthienTinuviel]

if youve got a dirty mind then i could possbly see frodo and sam, and when your watching the movie, i could see someone perverted thinking about aragorn and legolas in moria

but really, how sex obsessed are people?

[Nurvingiel]

People do seem sex-obsessed sometimes. And it's not just slash, I saw a Gimli/Galadriel fan-fic. I think the strange thing is not the implication of gay relationships, but the implication of a romantic relationship where there is none.

[Huan]

Crickhollow, I know I shouldn't make fun either, but:

It's platonic, by the by.

Um, by the by, it's by the by, by the by. :)

[Elfhelm]

Strictly speaking, the choices of Master Samwise tell us all about Sam and love, in fact platonic love in the strictest sense - the desire to posess beauty eternally. But Sam realizes his vision can never be; the world is NOT his garden. It must be allowed to be wild and his gardening should be kept in reasonable limits. What Sam feels for Frodo is not strictly platonic love. Sam truly loves in the agape sense, not the eros or philia sense of the word. The fourth type (amour) is what Aragorn has for Arwen. Sam's eros love is for Rosie. I think Eowyn has eros love for Aragorn but settles for agape love for Faramir (which in the movie, so far, is more than he deserves!)

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Huan
Crickhollow, I know I shouldn't make fun either, but:

It's platonic, by the by.

Um, by the by, it's by the by, by the by. :) I don't know what you're talking about ;)

:D :D :D :D

[Nurvingiel]

Elfhelm, I'm only partly understanding what you're talking about...

I'm pretty sure that eros love is sexual or romantic, and that platonic refers to friendship. But what do agape, philia, and amour mean? Is this at all related to the fact that amour is French for love?

I think you're totally right about Sam realizing that the world is not his garden. Sam didn't want a world sized garden, and his plain, hobbit sense prevailed!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Um, platonic means loving someone like you would a brother or sister.

[Rían]

OK, I just scanned thru this thread, and you people are missing a HUGE point that quite often get missed just from unfamiliarity with the British class system - Sam was Frodo's servant. Sam's father worked for Bilbo (and Frodo too, I think). There is a HUGE element of loyalty and love involved in the best British master/servant relationship - there also can certainly be friendship and great respect. That's why Sam calls Frodo "Mr. Frodo", BTW - that's what a close family servant would call the younger family member. A less-close servant would call Frodo "Mr. Baggins" or "Master Baggins".

Since Sam's family had been faithful servants to the Baggins family for quite some time, there was a long-standing love and loyalty aspect to their relationship. Back in the 'old' days, masters would take care of their higher-up servants FOR LIFE! Many servants are portrayed in British literature as being willing to do ANYTHING to protect their masters and the family name - including lying to authorities, etc. Anyone in England in Tolkien's time would clearly understand this aspect of the Frodo/Sam relationship. However, we're a bit removed from that time now, and unless you read older British literature, you wouldn't know that.

Anyway, just a quick post because I'm working on getting dinner on the table, and any Brits out there - I would appreciate your kicking in with some more info to help out.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Rian, do you remember the tv show "Family Affair?" Reminds me of Uncle Bill, and Mr. French.

[Nurvingiel]

Very excellent point RÃ*an! I'm not British, but I can see what you're talking about.

My Grandma's still pretty British, even though she's lived in Canada for ~50 years! ;)

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Um, platonic means loving someone like you would a brother or sister. Huan was commenting on my spelling, which I edited after he pointed out my mistake ;)

[WallRocker]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
There is nothing gay in LotRs. Any element of homosexuality that is seen in that story has been read into it by the reader.

I'd have to agree with that.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Hey Rian, Sam was a gentleman's gentleman.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Elfhelm, I'm only partly understanding what you're talking about...

Main Entry: -philia
Function: noun combining form
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek philia friendship, from philos dear
1 : friendly feeling toward <Francophilia>

Main Entry: aga·pe
Pronunciation: ä-'gä-(")pA, 'ä-g&-"pA
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek agapE, literally, love
Date: 1607

Main Entry: amour
Pronunciation: &-'mur, ä-, a-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, love, affection, from Middle French, from Old Provençal amor, from Latin, from amare to love
Date: 14th century

Main Entry: Eros
Pronunciation: 'er-"äs, 'ir-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek ErOs, from erOs sexual love; akin to Greek erasthai to love, desire
1 : the Greek god of erotic love -- compare CUPID
2 : the sum of life-preserving instincts that are manifested as impulses to gratify basic needs, as sublimated impulses, and as impulses to protect and preserve the body and mind -- compare DEATH INSTINCT
3 a : love conceived in the philosophy of Plato as a fundamental creative impulse having a sensual element b often not capitalized : erotic love or desire

[viggosbeard]

Sam and Frodo were not Homosexual so stop being silly. Sam and Frodo had a loving relationship yes, but they were not in love in the physical sense. If people cant understand the special bond that develops between people under extreme circumstances then you really are in trouble. I think a lot of this dependance, trust and love came from JRR's experience in the great war, I think a lot of militaRY personnel who have served in conflict tend to develop close relationships with the people that have their lives in their hands - theres a big difference in that and hopping into the sack with a mate !

Or have I missed the joke and its a wind - up ?:confused:

Also, excellent point Rian, spot on.

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally posted by viggosbeard
Or have I missed the joke and its a wind - up ?:confused:



Nope, this is no joke. Slash exists for us smutty, sick and wrong people who just like to be silly, really.

if youve got a dirty mind then i could possbly see frodo and sam, and when your watching the movie, i could see someone perverted thinking about aragorn and legolas in moria

but really, how sex obsessed are people?

That question is unanswerable. :D We're all gutter minded, you should know that. :rolleyes:

But really, people, with lines like "Aragorn, Toss me," from Gimli, it's just asking for people to get slashy ideas.

I realise most people dislike slash, think it's sick, stupid, corrupted, whatever, but I like it. Though must confess, am more into slashing other stories, as LotR has valid reasons for Sam's affection for Frodo and such as pointed out by Rian.

Nobody kill me.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Rian, do you remember the tv show "Family Affair?" Reminds me of Uncle Bill, and Mr. French. ....
Hey Rian, Sam was a gentleman's gentleman.

Yes, I do - that's a perfect example! I wonder how many Americans here have seen that show?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, SGH - IIRC, a "gentleman's gentleman' refers to a gentleman's valet (like a personal butler) - someone very high up on the servant scale. Sam was Frodo's gardener, although as Frodo pointed out once somewhere in LoTR, gardeners are held in high esteem (or something like that). Also, Frodo and Bilbo don't appear to have had any other servants (at least no other servants were mentioned), but I can't picture them doing their own laundry! :D They probably sent it out to the drycleaners :D

Any help from real Englishmen/women out there on the servant concept? I read a lot of Dickens, Jane Austin, Wilkie Collins, etc. who are long-dead British authors whose writings contain lots about servants, but I have no real knowledge, like an older Englishman might. However, in the light of my readings, Sam and Frodo's relationship makes perfect sense. I was very curious to see how they would handle that in the movie, since a lot of the movie crowd would have no clue about the meaning of Sam's calling Frodo "Mister Frodo". They seem to have thrown in a few "Mr. Frodo"s along with the plain-vanilla "Frodo"s.

[Rían]

Hey, I see a couple of people from England understand what I'm saying :)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Sam truly loves in the agape sense, not the eros or philia sense of the word. The fourth type (amour) is what Aragorn has for Arwen. Sam's eros love is for Rosie. I think Eowyn has eros love for Aragorn but settles for agape love for Faramir (which in the movie, so far, is more than he deserves!)

I think what Elfhelm is referring to is the 4 words for love in Greek - agape, eros, philia and storge. Often these words are used when talking about Christianity, because the New Testament is written in Greek, and mentions all 4 types, IIRC. Briefly, agape is "brotherly love" or "Christian love" in the best sense of the word (i.e., NOT as practiced by hypocrites!, but the ideal), eros is sexual/romantic love, phileo is friendship and storge is affection (like parent/child). Anyone that knows better, please correct me! but I think that's about right.

[Elfhelm]

Actually, since the topic was Plato's definitions, I was using those words in the context of Plato's Symposium, written several hundred years B.C. But later Christian theologists did refer to Plato's Symposium and did borrow the words.

My point was that Platonic love doesn't just mean to like someone without sex. That can be philia friendship, or agape brotherly. Love according to Plato means to want to posess beauty. And the only place we see that in Sam is for his gardening, and in the Choices chapter when he is tempting to turn the whole world into a garden, which is actually quite disgusting, don't you think?

Anyway, SGH, the definition of platonic in the common sense is not Plato's definition, so we can both be right.

And Rian when I said the fourth type I meant the definition added by the romance writers at Agincourt.

[Rían]

Sorry, I guess I didn't see the Plato reference .... well, whoever asked about those words probably got a little more than they planned on :) Interesting stuff, though.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

i dont think anyones supposed to be gay, but at this site [deleted]
there is the "secret" diaries of the people of LOTR, and thier all gay except frodo. its pretty funny

[Elf.Freak]

i found this site that had this article (it was Frodo/Sam based) and it had a really disturbing picture of Sam and Frodo kissing. eww! (i think it's safer NOT to post the site or i'll get bombarded by angry fans:p)

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Any help from real Englishmen/women out there on the servant concept? I read a lot of Dickens, Jane Austin, Wilkie Collins, etc. who are long-dead British authors whose writings contain lots about servants, but I have no real knowledge... I'm rather in the same boat, but when I see Sam Gamgee, it makes me think of another Sam. Pickwick Papers anyone? Sam Weller takes care of Mr. Pickwick in the same manner, although Frodo isn't as gullible as Pickwick is.