Numenorean Population Sizes

[quester463]

I was wondering how many people came to Middle Earth in the 9 ships in which Elendil and his sons escaped the downfall. How could 9 ships carry enough people (and warriors) to have founded 3 cities and to have given Sauron's forces a good fight? Were there still many Numenoreans present at the harbors that had been founded in earlier years? Did the Numenoreans join with other humans already living in Middle Earth. It's hard to imagine 1 ship carrying more than 1000 people. If there were 9000 total people aboard the 9 ships, they probably included no more than 2-3 thousand warriors. That doesn't seem like a large enough number for the war which subsequently was fought. And as long as we are talking numbers, how many elves joined in the Last Alliance? Any input would be welcomed.

[Michael Martinez]

There were many Numenoreans already living in the lands which were incorporated into Arnor and Gondor when Elendil and his sons brought the last survivors of Numenor to Middle-earth. And, for what it's worth, they founded at least five cities: Annuminas, Fornost Erain, Minas Anor, Osgiliath, and Minas Ithil.

The Numenoreans on the ships probably became the upper crust of society in the two kingdoms. It is one of my (unprovable) theories that the six ship captains besides Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion founded princely houses, of which we know virtually nothing. But there were three regions in Gondor not directly governed by the kings: Belfalas, Calenardhon, and Lebennin. Belfalas had a princely family, who became the Lords of Dol Amroth. One of the traditions concerning this family was that Elendil himself gave them the title of "prince", at least in part because they were related to him somehow. And there was a prince of Cardolan who was the last of his Line when he died in Tyrn Gorthad in the war of 1409, but he was not an heir of Isildur.

[Lorco Books]

how do you get something to appear below your name, like "Elven loremaster"? I should like to insert "loremaster of that which is indulged", or "consumer of that which makes one fat", or "midge-monster of many stomachs" or somesuch appropriate tittle for the big boned hobbits of the entmoot. I'm new to this strange board, and I should like some pointers, I normally post on a much more simpler format on the VN Boards....PHAW, I'm off to put something in my mouth before it goes off on a rant....

[Lorco Books]

Never mind I have mysteriously gained the name "hobbit" under my name! What a magical place!

[Eruve]

Read the thread on user titles. There's a link to it at the top of the main page. Michael has been given special consideration and is not in the "hierarchy", but you never know, perhaps of you ask the admins nicely, you can get a unique title.

Edited to add: There used to be a link at the top of the main page which explained the user titles. It has disappeared. There is a thread called "New User Titles" in the General Messages forum. Sorry, I don't know how to do that fancy link thing. You'll have to look down to maybe last week in the thread titles over there.

[Michael Martinez]

I never noticed the title change. Thanks. I look at people's names to see whose post I'm reading but seldom notice anything else (except the pictures -- I see the pictures).

[Darth Tater]

Yep, that's you, Ben thought it was fitting and I agree with him ;)

Boy, these questions are getting more and more complex! This one is beyond me!

[Lorco Books]

I entered 25 Hobbits, but I couldn't find a place to vote for The Tolkien Trail,...where is it?

[Lorco Books]

Another accidental posticon

[bmilder]

Well by clicking the "25 Hobbits" link in Tater's signature and then entering, you are voting for us :) . Thanks. There's also a link to it at the main TolkienTrail.com page.

[easterlinge]

I sort of deduced that Gondor was already settled when Elendil & Sons sailed over. But think of it, Gondor had access to the sea, Arnor did not. May have made it a little more difficult to settle..... maybe Arnor wasn't very heavily populated to begin with? Might explain why an itty kingdom like Angmar was able to wear it down, Arnor was "frontier country".

[Michael Martinez]

Arnor DID have access to the sea. It just didn't become a naval power. It appears that Arnor's chief port (perhaps the only one) was Tharbad. Sea-faring ships could sail up the river as far as Tharbad, which had harborage capable of handling the ships.

The information about Tharbad is provided in Unfinished Tales.

[Nimruzir]

RE: It appears that Gondor's chief port (perhaps the only one) was Tharbad.
Counts off other known Gondorian ports on fingers:
Pelargir
Harlond - below Minas Tirith
Osgiliath
Dol Amroth
Linhir

[Michael Martinez]

Mea Culpa. That should have read "Arnor's chief port", and I've now edited the message to correct my mistake.

Yes, Gondor had a lot of ports, and its chief port was Pelargir, I think (hard to say, but I believe Pelargir was the most important).

[easterlinge]

I don't know much about Tharbad. It wasn't mentioned in LOTR, so I had no idea. Still, one Arnorian port vs a half dozen Gondorian ports might make Gondor a lot easier to settle than Arnor.

What do we know about Tharbad? All I could gather was it was part of Cardolan, and a possible refuge of the Dunedain after the fall of Arthedain.

I'm rather curious about the Wild Men of Druadan Forest. They wore grass skirts.... isn't it a bit cold? Unless Gondor was positively tropical....

[Michael Martinez]

We learn a good deal about Tharbad in Unfinished Tales. It was jointly held by Gondor and Arnor for a long time. There were two long sloping ramps which led up to the bridge at Tharbad, and ships were able to stay there. Both kingdoms maintained forts and garrisons at the city.

Gondor lost interest in Tharbad after the Great Plague of 1636. And LOTR does mention Tharbad. Boromir lost his horse there. Appendix B says the town was deserted in 2912 after flooding destroyed it.

[easterlinge]

Where did Elendil land? I assumed it was at Lune, but now that I know more about Tharbad...

[Michael Martinez]

As far as I know, Elendil landed in Lindon somewhere. It could have been at Forlond, Harlond, or one of the Mithlond havens.

[easterlinge]

Isn't Lindon Elvish country? So Elendil landed there, Cirdan comes out to greet him.... then Elendil makes his grand speech:

"Out of the Great Sea unto Middle Earth I am come. ...etc." plus the bit where he and his descendants staying put until the End of the World.

Pretty rude of him, I'd say.....

[Michael Martinez]

Yes, Lindon was Elvish country. But Elendil may not have spoken those words until he established his kingdom. The narrative in LOTR may have been taking some liberties. Aragorn didn't speak them until many days after he had sailed up Anduin.

[easterlinge]

Would it be safe to say Gondor always had a greater population density than Arnor, even when they were at their peak? A look at any geography book reveals that coastal areas tend to be more heavily populated than inland areas. There may have been a high pop density around Tharbad itself, however.

I wonder how many cities the Numenoreans founded and were later abandoned for various reasons? And were all cities founded before the Fall of Numenor, or were any established after Elendil, Isildur and Anarion came over?

Why was Annuminas abandoned for one thing. You don't abandon capitals without good reason (although the Cambodians abandoned an intact Angkor, after the Siamese ravaged the kingdom in the 15th Cent.). Osgiliath was ruined by the Kinstrife and the Plague, but the plague was much less in the North.

[Michael Martinez]

Would it be safe to say Gondor always had a greater population density than Arnor, even when they were at their peak? A look at any geography book reveals that coastal areas tend to be more heavily populated than inland areas. There may have been a high pop density around Tharbad itself, however.

River areas can also be population heavy, and Arnor had three major rivers along which to place its population centers: the Lhun, the Baranduin, and the Gwathlo. There is no text I know of which compares the populations of the two kingdoms, but I get the impression that in the beginning Arnor had the larger population.

I wonder how many cities the Numenoreans founded and were later abandoned for various reasons? And were all cities founded before the Fall of Numenor, or were any established after Elendil, Isildur and Anarion came over?

There were probably other cities which did not figure into history. For example, where did the kings of Rhudaur and Cardolan live? Cardolan may have made its capitol at Tharbad, but what about Rhudaur? Also, Elendil's people lived in the lands which later became the Shire. Did they have towns there or just farms? I think it's likely they had towns, especially at Sarn Ford, the Bridge of Stonebows (later called the Brandywine Bridge), and the White Downs (where Michel Delving was later settled by the Hobbits).

Why was Annuminas abandoned for one thing. You don't abandon capitals without good reason (although the Cambodians abandoned an intact Angkor, after the Siamese ravaged the kingdom in the 15th Cent.). Osgiliath was ruined by the Kinstrife and the Plague, but the plague was much less in the North.

Annuminas was abandoned because the city had become depopulated. I suspect that when the three sons of Earendur divided Arnor into lesser kingdoms many of the people of Annuminas left to live in either Rhudaur or Cardolan. Amlaith then took the remaining people to Fornost Erain.

[easterlinge]

Hmm..... so you say Arnor had a bigger pop? Guess that's why Earendur's sons thought they could afford to divide the country.

Were there other Numenorean settlements outside of Gondor and Arnor? Where were the lands of "Black Numenoreans" as some call them? (I think Umbar was one). I suppose perhaps not all Numenorean territories swore allegiance to Elendil after the fall of Numenor, despite his being of the royal line.

[Michael Martinez]

It's my feeling that Arnor started out with the larger population, but there's no real evidence either way.

Probably the majority of Numenoreans who survived the Downfall dwelt outside of Arnor and Gondor. Umbar was the farthest north named colony of Black Numenoreans, but there is reference in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" to two Kings Men lords, Fuinur and Herumor, who ruled domains close to Gondor and Mordor.

The Black Numenoreans dwindled or became mingled with other kinds of Men in the Third Age, but apparently some survived until the end of the Third Age, as the Mouth of Sauron was a Black Numenorean.

[easterlinge]

Arnor and Gondor gave allegiance to Elendil and his line. I wonder if they were havens of the Faithful from the beginning (from before Numenor's Fall), or it was just chance that Elendil and Sons landed where they landed and took over?

Were all Gondorians and Arnorians loyal, or did Elendil have to do a bit of consolidating? Did Isildur have to confront King's Men in and near Gondor? (Maybe there isn't material enough to say anything definite here, so I can speculate... oh joy!!).

Does anyone know when Mordor was founded? I'm thinking it's the wrecked remnant of Utumno that Sauron took over.

[Michael Martinez]

Mordor was founded by Sauron around Second Age 1000.

"Akallabeth" says that the Faithful began settling in the lands close to Lindon when they started leaving Numenor. Pelargir became their chief haven but they certainly also had access to Lond Daer Ened and Tharbad, too.

So when Elendil and his sons reached Middle-earth there were already many Numenoreans living in the lands which became Arnor and Gondor.

[easterlinge]

When Sauron made war on the Elves because they didn't fall for his Magic Ring gambit, were there Numenoreans in Arnor? I get the impression the Numnoreans didn't get involved until Ar-Pharazon. THere was no mention (in Silmarillion) of Sauron making war on the Dunedain either, before ar-Pharazon intervened. Maybe Sauron avoided the Numenoreans to concentrate on Gil-Galad.

Thing is, how to fight Gil-galad without violating Numenorean territory in Arnor? Unless Arnor was sparsely populated. This is really the reason (along with Arnor's limited access to the Sea) why I thought Arnor had low population.

I'm speculating of course. Silmarillion doesn't describe the account of the First War of the Ring (called the War of Elves and Sauron, but it sounds a bit lame).

[Michael Martinez]

The longest, most detailed account of what happened in the Second Age is provided in a rejected history of Galadriel and Celeborn which was published in Unfinished Tales. In that story the Numenoreans actually spent about 100 years building up stockpiles and defenses in Lindon and along the Gwathlo in preparation for the War of the Elves and Sauron. But Eriador was at that time either under Gil-galad's control or under the control of non-Numenorean Edainic peoples or other Elves (Nandor, Avari, Sindar, and some Noldor).

The war resulted in the destruction of many communities throughout Eriador. I don't know if we can say that any of these communities were "realms" or "kingdoms" like Lindon or Eregion. If they had names, those names were forgotten. They ceased to exist with the war.

Whatever peoples survived the war seem to have re-established themselves in Eriador, but I get the impression from the various histories that Gil-galad took informal if not formal control over Eriador after the war. He was essentially the only leader with enough military power to do that.

Appendix B in The Lord of the Rings, "The Tale of Years", says that the Numenoreans began establishing permanent havens in Middle-earth around the year 1200. But we don't know when they started establishing permanent havens in the north. Vinyalonde had been built by Aldarion but it was at most used as a seasonal port during his lifetime. His daughter seems to have ignored Middle-earth completely, so Vinyalonde was only turned into a permanent haven some centuries after Aldarion founded it. Ciryaher, the Numenorean admiral who brought the relief fleet to Gil-galad's aid, used the port, so it may have been a permanent haven at that time. Perhaps the preparations for the war were responsible for the decision to inhabit the city continuously.

Arnor didn't exist until near the end of the Second Age. Gil-galad helped Elendil establish his realm in the year 3320. Elendil appears to have spent several months with Gil-galad from his arrival in Lindon in 3319 until Arnor was established.

My guess is that Gil-galad proposed that Elendil establish a new kingdom. Elendil then probably asked the Numenoreans and Edain then living in Eriador if they would accept him as their king. Gil-galad at the same time may have summoned all the Elves to leave those portions of Eriador which were being ceded to Elendil.

So, there is no need to suggest that Arnor had a low population. The peoples of Eriador had 1600 years to recover their populations after the War of the Elves and Sauron (1695-1701). That's plenty of time for recovery. And Gil-galad's own Elven population seems to have grown considerably during the years of Sauron's exile in Numenor and the first 100 years of the existence of Arnor and Gondor.

[easterlinge]

I accept that Eriador was populated by the non-Numenoreans during the War of Elves and Sauron. THe War depopulated Eriador, then the population recovered somewhat.... but it wasn't Numenorean territory, and the population weren't Numenoreans or Dunedain. (When did they start being called Dunedain? After the Fall of Numenor?)

"But Eriador was at that time either under Gil-galad's control or under the control of non-Numenorean Edainic peoples or other Elves (Nandor, Avari, Sindar, and some Noldor)."


THe Numenoreans were mostly at the coastal havens, and moved in near the end of the 2nd Age:

"Arnor didn't exist until near the end of the Second Age. Gil-galad helped Elendil establish his realm in the year 3320. Elendil appears to have spent several months with Gil-galad from his arrival in Lindon in 3319 until Arnor was established.

My guess is that Gil-galad proposed that Elendil establish a new kingdom. Elendil then probably asked the Numenoreans and Edain then living in Eriador if they would accept him as their king. Gil-galad at the same time may have summoned all the Elves to leave those portions of Eriador which were being ceded to Elendil."

Maybe there was a lot of other people, but not that many Dunedain, who were just beginnnig to establish Arnor under Elendil.

As for Gil-Galad's folk recovering, well, the impression I have from LOTR and Silmarillion, is that Elvish civilizations have poor powers of recovery. Eregion was left empty, Lorien was later abandoned, Rivendell was just hanging on in the 3rd age, Lune was where the Elves fled when they couldn't take it anymore and wanted to sail away...

Something to do with their reluctance to reproduce. Elrond had 3 kids (in all of 6-7000 years?!!), Cirdan none, Gil-Galad none (despite staying 2 Ages), Galadriel and Celeborn none (with a name like "Teleporno", I thought he would be more uh, "fruitful"), Thranduil just one (and even Legolas sailed away).... Can't rebuild anything without people!!

I think the best Gil-galad could manage was to gather remnants of other realms and glob them together.

THe Dunedain almost went the same way, with Gondorians reluctant to have children (as Faramir said to Frodo in Henneth Annun). I also noted that Arnor was still depopulated many centuries after the Fall of Fornost.

[Michael Martinez]

Tolkien wrote that there were many people of mixed blood in both Arnor and Gondor. And Tharbad was a Numenorean haven, too. It was far from the coast.

"Akallabeth" shows us that most of the Faithful Dunedain left Numenor before the Downfall. By the time Elendil arrived in Middle-earth there were a lot of people who had settled there before him.

As for Gil-Galad's folk recovering, well, the impression I have from LOTR and Silmarillion, is that Elvish civilizations have poor powers of recovery. Eregion was left empty, Lorien was later abandoned, Rivendell was just hanging on in the 3rd age, Lune was where the Elves fled when they couldn't take it anymore and wanted to sail away...

The Silmarillion states in several places that the Elven populations were quick to grow whenever they had a respite. The Noldor increased in Beleriand after they returned to Middle-earth and began the Siege of Angband, the survivors of Gondolin and Doriath increased their population after settling in Arvernien, etc.

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says that Gil-galad's power grew great during Sauron's absence. That power could only increase through the growth of populations.

And The Lord of the Rings says that the army of the Last Alliance (in Elrond's estimation) was the largest ever assembled in Middle-earth, except for the Host of Valinor. Lorien, too, was nearly deserted after the Third Age only because its people mostly moved across the Anduin.

And Elves were hardly reluctant to reproduce. Furthermore, you have no way of knowing whether Cirdan had children. And Galadriel and Celeborn had at least one daughter, Celebrian, who was Elrond's wife. Nor do we know whether Legolas was Thranduil's only child.

Nor did Faramir tell Frodo that his people were reluctant to have children. What Faramir said to Frodo in "The Window on the West" was:

'Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; and in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anarion had no heir.'

He was speaking of the Kings of Gondor in referring to childlessness, not of the Dunedain in general.

[easterlinge]

Ai, but the Fourth Age was for the Dominion of Men, and the decline of the Elves. Why would the Elves decline? Sauron was defeated; Gandalf said that if the Ring was destroyed, Sauron's fall would be so complete no one can foresee his return.

If what thou sayest of the *ahem* fecundity of the Elves be true, the Fourth Age should bring a resurgence and a pop explosion of Elves. And strange sounds coming from the treetops.

Why the decline eh? Martinez must tells us, my Precious...gollum gollum...

I was wondering how King Elessar plans to restore Arnor. Out of practicality he'll start with restoring Tharbad. A working port will make rebuilding the north-kingdom easier.

[Michael Martinez]

Most of the Eldar left Middle-earth by the end of the Third Age. Many of the Silvan Elves had already left, too. In the Fourth Age there would have been a resurgence of Silvan Elves for a time, until they began to fade, but there would be no more Eldarin civilizations.

Fading, deaths in war, and departures over Sea were pretty much the reasons for the depletions of Elven populations. And though they averaged about four children per couple in the early ages, Tolkien says they eventually had fewer children (on average).

[easterlinge]

Goodness that was quick!!! You must be online at this time.

So in other words the Elves became reluctant to reproduce in later ages. Why the change?

Demoralization I suppose. When you have no stable culture, you're reluctant to breed, and bring more kids into misery. The attitude among the later Elves seem to be "Lets enjoy life while we can, nothing we build lasts anyway..."

[Michael Martinez]

So in other words the Elves became reluctant to reproduce in later ages. Why the change?

I have no idea. Sorry.

[easterlinge]

I've been re-reading LOTR, and looking at the map. Gosh, I never realised how big Arnor is!! Why, even when you put Calenardhon with Gondor, Arnor would still be 3 times bigger!! I think you're right about Arnor having larger population, once Elendil got the kingdom running properly!!

Tharbad seems a bit far inland, so I never figured it for a port city. But why did Boromir lose his horse there?

[Michael Martinez]

If what thou sayest of the *ahem* fecundity of the Elves be true, the Fourth Age should bring a resurgence and a pop explosion of Elves. And strange sounds coming from the treetops.

They did manage to recover their numbers despite many setbacks. But the Fourth Age also brought more departures over Sea. And eventually the Elves faded.

Don't know about Tharbad, but Annuminas was restored.

[easterlinge]

There seems to have been a decline in the military might of the Noldor after rthe Second Age and the Last Alliance. Indeed Elrond seemed a bit wistful when he said that "a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days" couldn't help Frodo to Mordor, even if he could find or spare any.

The 3rd Age was pretty bad for the Dunedain, but the Noldor, what was left of them, seemed to have been left alone. The Grey Havens were not assailed. Yet the Noldor did not seem to increase in numbers significantly, and when Fornost was about to fall, they waited until Earnur sailed up the Lune with his Gondorians.

Now, Earnur's army was probably nowhere near as big as Elendil's, but the Havens Elves were astonished at the numbers that Earnur brought. Seems the Noldor were bleeding away.

[Michael Martinez]

The Eldar of Eriador were able to field armies on more than one occasion in the Third Age. Elrond's comment at the Council was with respect to the current time frame. The last great, mass exodus of Elves had already occurred (see "The Shadow of the Past"). He no longer had the means to field an army.

But he was saying that Sauron had by this point become so powerful that even one of the legendary Elven armies of the First Age wouldn't be able to get all the way to Orodruin.

[easterlinge]

"But he was saying that Sauron had by this point become so powerful that even one of the legendary Elven armies of the First Age wouldn't be able to get all the way to Orodreth. "

You meant "Orodruin" didn't you? Orodreth was Finrod's brother I think.

I'm curious that both names contain "Orod". Orodruin was a horrible place, while Orodreth was Finrod's well-meaning but somewhat less competent kid brother. What do the names mean?

Had Sauron become really that powerful in military terms? I mean I always thought Mordor was but a pale shadow of Angband's war machine. Morgoth mainly fielded Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Werewolves, Vampires, a few Balrogs (Seven only? Really?), and probably an assortment of other monsters like that Thing in the Lake at Moria. Plus some Men, and the odd Elf like Maeglin.

Sauron seems to field mostly Easterlings and Sothrons supplemented by Orcs and Trolls. Granted though, there were probably a LOT of Men on his side.

[Michael Martinez]

"But he was saying that Sauron had by this point become so powerful that even one of the legendary Elven armies of the First Age wouldn't be able to get all the way to Orodreth. "

You meant "Orodruin" didn't you? Orodreth was Finrod's brother I think.

Yes. I've now corrected my message. Thanks for pointing out the gaffe to me. I guess I had Elven kings on the mind last night.

I'm curious that both names contain "Orod". Orodruin was a horrible place, while Orodreth was Finrod's well-meaning but somewhat less competent kid brother. What do the names mean?

"Orod" is a word for "mountain". "ruin" is translated as "blazing fire" by Christopher Tolkien in The Silmarillion although it seems to be related to a stem, roy, which means "ruddy, red". Robert Foster translates "Orodruin" as "mountain of red flame". The Silmarillion gives the meaning of "red flame" for "ruin", so I'm not sure of where Christopher was coming from with his "blazing fire".

I am not enough of a linguist to figure out what "reth" means. It may be related to Elvish words for "seed" and "sow", but that's just an untutored guess.

Had Sauron become really that powerful in military terms? I mean I always thought Mordor was but a pale shadow of Angband's war machine. Morgoth mainly fielded Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Werewolves, Vampires, a few Balrogs (Seven only? Really?), and probably an assortment of other monsters like that Thing in the Lake at Moria. Plus some Men, and the odd Elf like Maeglin.

Sauron didn't command the variety of servants Morgoth had, but Tolkien wrote somewhere (the reference escapes me) that Sauron was, at the end of the Second Age, more personally powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age, but that Sauron had become more militarily powerful at the end of the Third Age than he had been at the end of the Second Age.

Sauron seems to field mostly Easterlings and Sothrons supplemented by Orcs and Trolls. Granted though, there were probably a LOT of Men on his side.

There were indeed a lot of men on his side, and a lot of Orcs and Trolls.

[easterlinge]

"Sauron didn't command the variety of servants Morgoth had, but Tolkien wrote somewhere (the reference escapes me) that Sauron was, at the end of the Second Age, more personally powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age, but that Sauron had become more militarily powerful at the end of the Third Age than he had been at the end of the Second Age."

Wow. The Ring made Sauron that powerful at the 2nd Age? But I seem to recall an article of yours saying Morgoth dissipated himself creating various creatures like Dragons, and generally permeating the very matter ("hroa" or something) of Arda. Control freak he is! So maybe Sauron's personal power didn't approach that of Melkor at his height.

Hey, that means if Elendil and Gil-GAlad could throw down Sauron in personal combat, they could wrestle Morgoth himself!!

Hmmm.... Beleriand was more "polluted" with Morgoth's essence than anywhere else? And thus more conducive to the practice of magic than anywhere else? So that some of the magical feats of Beleriand is not possible elsewhere? THe place most conducive to magic after the 1st Age would be the Grey Havens, which is adjacent to drowned Beleriand? Just following a train of thought that occured to me. Also some traces of Valaric power remaining in the seas over lost Beleriand...

Militarily Sauron was more powerful in the 3rd Age than in the 2nd, as you say Tolkien said. But was he stronger militarily in the War of the Ring than Morgoth at the start of the War of Wrath? The Silmarillion mentioned Orcs so plentiful that Anfauglith could scarce contain them, and dragons that threw back the Valar's forces.

[Michael Martinez]

"Sauron didn't command the variety of servants Morgoth had, but Tolkien wrote somewhere (the reference escapes me) that Sauron was, at the end of the Second Age, more personally powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age, but that Sauron had become more militarily powerful at the end of the Third Age than he had been at the end of the Second Age."

Wow. The Ring made Sauron that powerful at the 2nd Age? But I seem to recall an article of yours saying Morgoth dissipated himself creating various creatures like Dragons, and generally permeating the very matter ("hroa" or something) of Arda. Control freak he is! So maybe Sauron's personal power didn't approach that of Melkor at his height.

Hey, that means if Elendil and Gil-GAlad could throw down Sauron in personal combat, they could wrestle Morgoth himself!!

Maybe. Sauron attacked Gil-galad, however. It's not like Gil-galad went looking to meet Sauron in personal combat. Tolkien doesn't indicate what Gil-galad and Elendil thought they would be able to do, once they had defeated Sauron's armies. It's an interesting question.

This chart gives a crude representation of how Sauron's power increased, versus Morgoth's decrease in power.

http://www.xenite.org/forums/images/sauron_versus_morgoth.jpg

Hmmm.... Beleriand was more "polluted" with Morgoth's essence than anywhere else? And thus more conducive to the practice of magic than anywhere else? So that some of the magical feats of Beleriand is not possible elsewhere? THe place most conducive to magic after the 1st Age would be the Grey Havens, which is adjacent to drowned Beleriand? Just following a train of thought that occured to me. Also some traces of Valaric power remaining in the seas over lost Beleriand...

I don't know if we could say that. The greatest Elven magic worked in the Second Age occurred in Eregion, where the Rings of Power were forged. Melkor instilled his power throughout all of Arda, or nearly all of it.

Militarily Sauron was more powerful in the 3rd Age than in the 2nd, as you say Tolkien said. But was he stronger militarily in the War of the Ring than Morgoth at the start of the War of Wrath? The Silmarillion mentioned Orcs so plentiful that Anfauglith could scarce contain them, and dragons that threw back the Valar's forces.

I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure. I'd have to find the passage again and study it. I suppose that it doesn't make much sense to argue that Sauron had that kind of military power at the end of the Third Age. But then, there was no hope of defeating him militarily.

[Michael Martinez]

Well, the lines didn't come out the way I hoped. Sorry about that. But Morgoth's line is the descending one (which was red when I drew it) and Sauron's line is the ascending one (which was blue when I drew it).

[Lief Erikson]

And were they in the same place?

It's my opinion that Morgoth's army at the beginning of the War of Wrath was bigger and stronger than Sauron's horde. He had dragons and Balrogs under his command, plus millions of orcs and lesser troops.

But there isn't any real proof either way, it's all a matter of opinion, so until someone finds something factual to support their theory, I think that particular discussion can probably be dropped for the time being.

And there's one thing I'd like to know. Are you guys thinking of Morgoth's power the wrong way? Because I think there is a difference between their phisical prowess and their armies and military might. You were speaking of when they defeated Sauron, would they be capable of beating Morgoth himself in personal combat? It's his defense magic and his personal strength that you're talking about now, not his military might and outward power. He'd probably be just as tough at fighting Gil-galad and Elendil as he was when he fought Fingolfin. I can't see that because he lost a lot of military might, his own abilities in that field would be deteriorated.

[easterlinge]

Hey Mike, that graph is interesting. But I thought Sauron's powers would show a jump or surge upwards when he forged the Ring, followed by a more gradual increase as he learned to wield its full powers.

So the graph would show a steady increase first, then a jump up, then a more gradual but steeper increase than before.

I've been thinking (Oh no!! I'm actually thinking!!), whta does the Ring actually do? I have a vague notion of it enhancing the powers of command and domination, and reading the minds of his enemies , but Sauron can do that already. He saw through Beren and Finrod's disguises.

The foundations of Barad-Dur was made with the Ring so maybe it has powers to move the earth (but I really don't know). THe Brown Lands was perhaps blasted by the power of the Ring, maybe. Mordor was perhaps another result of the Ring, with accelerated decay and corruption, sort of Elven-Ring working in reverse.

[Michael Martinez]

I've been struggling with a sore shoulder for several weeks (I keep reinjuring it), so doing fancy graphics and artwork, never a forte of mine in the first place, is out of the question. The purpose of the chart is really to emphasize where they ended up, rather than how (or how fast) they got there.

Tolkien wrote quite a bit about the One Ring. I've incorporated some of his thoughts into a few of my Suite101 essays (can't think of which ones). Basically, Sauron was trying to make himself stronger. The domination of other wills was something he had long been engaged in anyway. But realized that if he invested a great part of his strength in an external object, he would be able to wield it more effectively.

Elrond's statement about the foundations of Barad-dur may be a bit misleading. Construction on Barad-dur began before the Elves made the Rings of Power. However, the One Ring possessed the raw power of Sauron (most of it), and therefore Elrond may have been implicitly acknowledging that the power which had been used to enhance the foundations of Barad-dur had been transferred to the Ring.

I think the Brown Lands were made brown simply by Sauron's setting fire to the region. That was what he did to Eriador in the War of the Elves and Sauron, after all.

[easterlinge]

I remember my Dad hurting his shoulder handling a 5 gallon container of water. It hurt for 2 months, and he was rather grumpy, especially after we forbade him to drive the car, which had no power steering. He sought out a masseur, but even the masseur said he had no art for torn ligament, the only thing to do was rest and avoid straining it.

Hope you're not feeling rather crotchety at the moment...

"
I think the Brown Lands were made brown simply by Sauron's setting fire to the region. That was what he did to Eriador in the War of the Elves and Sauron, after all. "

Eriador recovered though, unlike the Brown Lands. Unless you meant Eregion not Eriador.

Did Sauron know the Istari were Maiar? Gandalf strove to avoid revealing himself to Sauron, but Saruman rather blew it.

[Michael Martinez]

Portions of Eriador did not recover their treescape, however. Minhiriath became what Tolkien described as both a desert and a plains region. It was essentially a grassland, and sometimes the word "desert" is applied to a grassy region. Depends on the grass, thickness of it, etc.

Poland created a desert in the Middle Ages through deforestation. Some of the wildlife actually adapted to conditions there, and a few years ago conservationists were concerned about losing the desert habitat to development.

I don't know if Sauron knew the Istari were Maiar. He may have guessed they were. It's not like men naturally lived that long or wielded that kind of power.

[easterlinge]

"Elrond's statement about the foundations of Barad-dur may be a bit misleading. "

I seem to recall a part of the story of Luthien & Beren, when Luthien went to Tol Sirion (which was under Sauron's control) with Huan the Hound to rescue the poor guy from Sauron. After Huan beat wolf-Sauron, Luthien forced Sauron to reveal the word that bound the stones of the stronghold together.

Luthien then spoke that word (or used it in a spell) and the stronghold collapsed into the river, "and Sirion spumed in sudden smoke".

Seems perhaps the Elves and Sauron were in the habit of strengthening their buildings with magic. Maybe Sauron decided to reinforce Barad-dur's foundations with Ring-magic. Towers are pretty tricky, as the Leaning Tower of Pisa would attest. The "Leaning Dark Tower of Mordor" would have been embarrassing, if not downright hazardous!! ;-)

What do you think?

[easterlinge]

This thread is getting longish. Should I start a new one?