Jackson & the Misuse of Time

[squinteyedsoutherner]

How can RoTK make up for Jackson's misuse of time in TTT

Chapters missing in their entirety:

The Road to Isengard
Flotsam and Jetsam
The voice of Saruman
The Palantir
Journey to the Cross-Roads
The stairs of Cirith Ungol
Shelob's lair
The choices of Master Samwise

Also remember the book's first chapter the departure of Boromir was added to the first film. How can anyone defend cutting this much text for Warg riders and Helm's Deep.

[diannah]

I agree. I would have rather seen more of the story than the action...

[Huan]

Yes, the filmmakers have an awful lot left over to cover in Return of the King, assuming, of course, that they have any intention of covering any of it. How they think they can finish things without Gandalf's final confrontation with Saruman is beyond me, though they claim to have cut the Scouring of the Shire, and I don't get how THEY don't get the essential structural symmetry of that as the climax of the story: we end where we began. I think they actually called it "unnecessary." Rereading The Two Towers lately, I am amazed at the things they felt worth excising, when so much time was wasted on ridiculous things. Now, I like the Warg battle, and it makes some sense for the movie's plot, at least. But the outcome of the battle, Aragorn and that absolute silliness with the cliff and Arwen's magic horse is just useless. How much of that time could have been devoted to the significance of the Ents? Non-readers have no idea how profound they are; they're just big walking trees: big whoop. And wouldn't it have been nice to see Pippin's "Ring" exchange with Grishnakh? "You're not going to find it that way." "What are you talking about?" "Oh, nothing...precious. gollum! gollum!" Given that Jackson will doubtless wish to make a drawn-out action-movie fight of the Shelob sequence and Sam's putting on the Ring and all that, and certainly the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, where will they find time for the developing parallel relationships between Merry and Theoden, and Pippin and Denethor? How will we even get around to splitting them up in the first place? I remain optimistic though, because if you think about it, minus the appendices, ROTK is actually a very short volume, so maybe there's actually room in a three-hour movie for all this.

[azalea]

OH, I would have LOVED to see Pippin and Merry teasing the orc about the ring! Yes, that is really my main issue w/ Jackson -- the misuse of time. I really don't mind a lot of the additions (elves at Helm's Deep, Warg battle) but it's the changes and omissions that get to me. Less time spent on battles would have meant more time for story. But I do have hopes for RotK.

[madeyejay]

I was thouroughly disappointed with TTT. My favorite volume, basically ruined. My wife would call me a purist, but I do not agree. I can understand some things being left and changes for action, but totally changing mafor plot lines is sad. The whole Rohan & Helm's deep, as well as Faromir and Frodo parts disturbed me. And don't get me started on the Aragorn thing with the cliff, river and horse. I will still see RotK, but do not hold much hope for it.

[donovan]

What I found most rude of jackson, is that he changed the story significantly, Faramir taking Frodo and Sam captive to Osgiliath, is absurd, and it violates an important part of the storyline, which is how the Ringbearer goes from danger to safe havens where he receives help, gets rest, and provisions before venturing once more into danger.

In Jacksons version, Frodo is hampered by Faramir, and taken out of his way, Faramir's friendship with Gandalf thus being forgotten.

I can accept some parts of the book being left out of the film, but to change the storyline thus I find unacceptable.

The fellowship of the Ring was remarkably true to the story, but what we have seen in The Two Towers only makes me fear worse to come in The Return of the King.

[Elfhelm]

Just because the movie is called The Two Towers doesn't mean it goes up to the end of the book. In fact, as pointed out in the first post here, he stops Book 3 several chapters early and he also stops Book 4 several chapters early. Presumably they are to be included in RotK.

It's pretty obvious that RotK, without the scouring and rebirth of the Shire, and without the Appendices, is much shorter than the other books. So some material from the ends of Books 3 and 4 are going to be in the final movie.

Also, the death of Boromir is actually not a part of Fellowship. It is the first chapter of Book 3. So they never did even imply that they were following the order of the book.

But as regards Tolkien's timeline as given in the Appendices, I notice that the moon actually IS full when they look out from the Window on the West. Now if it is full again when Pippin rides away with Gandalf, then they will, in fact, match up the time correctly (except that we all know that Osgiliath fell to Sauron's forces before Boromir even set forth to Rivendell). But it seems a long way to go to link time via the full moon across two movies, so I don't think they will.

I am pretty sure Jackson/Walsh/Boyens have no intention of making up for any of their deviations.

But what I fantasize about is that they would make a 4th movie so they can have the scouring, etc. It would start with the four hobbits bidding farewell to Gandalf as he goes to visit with Tom B., then the whole bit with Christopher Lee as Sharkey, and Fatty Bolger and other cool Hobbits like Farmer Maggot would respond to the call to arms. And the standoff at Buckland, and the victory, and Sam and Rosie, and Frodo's departure from the Grey Havens... sigh... I am dreaming... The thing is, they could make another 150 million dollars! So why not!?

[Firekitten2006]

What version of the books are you guys reading? I have read two different publications (if thats how you would say it) and in both of them Boromir dies in Fellowship.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by Firekitten2006
What version of the books are you guys reading? I have read two different publications (if thats how you would say it) and in both of them Boromir dies in Fellowship. He does die in the Fellowship book, but then if you read the first chapter of Two Towers, that's when they send him over the waterfall, etc.

[Elfhelm]

Oh duh. Thanks for the correction.

Boromir's funeral rites are in the first chapter of TTT book, but shown in FotR movie, which is still the same point - that they never did follow the Harper Row division. JRRT himself did not divide the "trilogy" up like that.

[WallRocker]

personally, I think that PJ will just cut out some of RotK, like he did with FotR. I also don't think he'll add evrything back in, or he'll cut some things short. Like flotsam and jetsam, even though this part is awesome, will not show the long(but awesome) debate between Sarumon and Gandalf. Remember, PJ has to cater to us Tokienites, and to the general public who doesn't understand the depth of Tolkiens writings.

[eowyngirl14]

I am pretty sure that he is cutting out the scouring of the shire!!!!! he is going to get sooooo much hatemail from fans if he does that...:)

[Huan]

Time isn't the ony thing Jackson is misusing in this episode. There are also so many problems with continuity and geography. As others have already mentioned in other threads, his having Merry and Pippin meet Gandalf screws things up, because the hobbits surely would have called him Gandalf to his face, thus interfering with his (taken from the book) confusion over the name when he meets the Three Hunters. And how did the elves arrive at Helm's Deep in time? And why does Haldir send word from Elrond when he and his troops are from Lothlorien? And worst of all, if the Ents disperse after the Entmoot, how do they all just magically pop out of the wood at once when Treebeard calls them? Fellowship was really a much more thought-out adaptation. The irony is that it is in the episode that introduces the Ents that Jackson chooses to become "hasty."

[obscenename]

"The fellowship of the Ring was remarkably true to the story, but what we have seen in The Two Towers only makes me fear worse to come in The Return of the King."

That is not a true statement. The movie, The Fellowship of the Ring had many major deviations from the book. Sorry to be redundant.

[mithrand1r]

A better statement would be that FOTR was closer to the book than TTT. However, both movies differed from the book in several areas some more blatent than others.


I still enjoyed both movies, even with the changes to the story.

Sincerely,
Anthony
:cool:

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The Hobbits meeting Gandalf the White doesn't bother me. I mean, it's possible that they didn't see his face, anymore than the Hunters did. And if they did see him, they quite likely would have been too busy being shocked to actually say his name.

[Huan]

hoom... I get the impression from the movie that Treebeard was actually going to seek Gandalf's council on what to do with the hobbits. The film kind of implies that there was a discussion of some sort, and surely the hobbits would have had the opportunity to partake in it.

Unless THAT white figure was Saruman! As the figure the Three Hunters in the book saw (before they met Gandalf) turned out to be Saruman after all. hoom....

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, I got that impression too. But whatever discussion they had, it was off-screen, as well as any participation the Hobbits may have had in it.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Treebeard says to the hobbits in the scene that follows the hobbits and the white wizard:

"I told GANDALF I would keep you safe, and safe is where I'll keep you"

I think in light of that statement it is a bit of a stretch to argue Gandalf's name was not used in the meeting.

Also, it was never my intention to argue that the films must follow the divisions of the books. My arguement is the second film has only gone half way through the second book, and there is now not enough time to even scarcely cover the remaining material and the reason for this is disproportionate time usage.

[Elfhelm]

I hear ya. But we already know he's skipping much of the denouement, which lasts about 200 pages. And of course anything from the Appendices is brought in through conversations.

I would love to see the Scouring as a sequel. That would be so cool!

I wonder when we'll finally get over the "differences" diatribe. I am recalling that the Martian Chronicles, Starship Troopers, Dune, A Christmas Carol, Great Expectations, The Bostonians, etc., were all filmed differently from their books. So when someone says PJ's film is surprisingly true to the books, they obviously are couching it in those terms, not in terms of some imagined non-filmed version in the imagination of the readers. I agree that in those terms these films are delightful, though I did scowl at the Osgiliath scene. Trust me, I scowl at many more things about Dune and Mists of Avalon. Or like in Great Expectations: there's no nude scene!!! I think Dickens would have been offended. By comparison, the variations in LotR so far are no as disturbing ... to me(!).

[squinteyedsoutherner]

agreed:)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
How can RoTK make up for Jackson's misuse of time in TTT

Chapters missing in their entirety:

Journey to the Cross-Roads


Although this chapter has not occurred yet, a portion of the dialogue from it ended the movie, when Frodo and Sam speak about being in a tale of their own...

[eowyngirl14]

I liked that part! 'hmm... Samwise the brave' sounds sexy!:)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Treebeard says to the hobbits in the scene that follows the hobbits and the white wizard:

"I told GANDALF I would keep you safe, and safe is where I'll keep you"

I think in light of that statement it is a bit of a stretch to argue Gandalf's name was not used in the meeting.

Also, it was never my intention to argue that the films must follow the divisions of the books. My arguement is the second film has only gone half way through the second book, and there is now not enough time to even scarcely cover the remaining material and the reason for this is disproportionate time usage.

No, I don't mean that Gandalf's name was not used in the meeting; I simply mean that it was not used in the few seconds we see.

[Huan]

Quote: No, I don't mean that Gandalf's name was not used in the meeting; I simply mean that it was not used in the few seconds we see.

But the logical conclusion that Merry and Pippin would call Gandalf by the name they know him, whether on screeen or not, is what people think undermines the later scene that is actually in the book.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmm? Sorry, what later scene?

I thought this was about Merry and Pippin not saying Gandalf when they met him with Treebeard.

[Huan]

I mean the later scene in which Aragorn calls Gandalf by name and he has to remember ever being called Gandalf. If Merry and Piipin already encountered him, it strains credulity that Gandalf would meet two of the old Fellowship, then forget being Gandalf in the short time before Aragorn called him so.

[Elfhelm]

Grin! If it strained credulity so much how come noone noticed?

We don't know yet if time is warped by the writers. We'll have to see if the moon is full after the Palantir scene.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Grin! If it strained credulity so much how come noone noticed?

They were too busy trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the plot;)

On topic, I don't think they're out of synch with the timing of the parallel plots, and it doesn't really matter where you end the film relative to the book (as long as it makes sense as a film - which it doesn't, but that's another story). As you said, in fact, E. In fact, they did a pretty good job of keeping pace in the two plots.

I, too, would love to see a fourth film of the Scouring and Grey Havens. Who knows? We might even get some character development.

However, since

Saruman is reputed to meet his end on the now-legendary "spiked wheel" in ROTK

we can probably rule it out in the form we'd all like to see.

However, don't give up hope for the Voice of Saruman chapter; the director would have to be completely insane to pass up on a McKellen vs Lee face-off.

cheers

d.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ah yes, THAT scene. You're right, then, it would not make sense.

the director would have to be completely insane to pass up on a McKellen vs Lee face-off.

Oh great, no chance at all. ;)

[Elf.Freak]

i liked the movie, but it would have been better if someone *cough* *Peter Jackson* *cough* didn't cut good bits out!:mad:

[eowyngirl14]

I wish PJ did not cut out the scene with Merry and Pippin singing at the bar in fotr! They were so HOT in that scene!:) :)